Spirit of Ireland - A bright spark in today's economic gloom?

patgill

luohaoran wrote: »

@ Pat

Pat since you are back on here, perhaps you can answer my earlier question.

What is the current licensing arrangement for owners of windfarms, be they Irish citizens, or foreign companies, running them.
In other words , how much of the energy generated from Irish wind, returns to the Irish tax payer?

Maybe you could compare it to the Shell/Rossport arrangement?

I am very much in the SoI camp, my #1 point in favour, is keeping our money circulating in the Irish economy, but I am concerned that joint ventures with multinationals may have a significant cost in terms of money leaving the country. Whether its avoidable or not is a separate argument, but I'd like to know the liability.

luohaoran,

Thats a very good question, I will return to it later today as time permits, however the following link might interest you.

http://www.energyco-ops.ie/

Heroditas

luohaoran wrote: »

@ Pat

Pat since you are back on here, perhaps you can answer my earlier question.

What is the current licensing arrangement for owners of windfarms, be they Irish citizens, or foreign companies, running them.
In other words , how much of the energy generated from Irish wind, returns to the Irish tax payer?

Maybe you could compare it to the Shell/Rossport arrangement?

I am very much in the SoI camp, my #1 point in favour, is keeping our money circulating in the Irish economy, but I am concerned that joint ventures with multinationals may have a significant cost in terms of money leaving the country. Whether its avoidable or not is a separate argument, but I'd like to know the liability.

If you own a wind farm and sell electricity into the pool, you keep all the proceeds for yourself.
You also get paid capacity payments when the wind farm is able to generate.
You then pay tax on the money earned, same as any other business.
As far as I'm aware, there are no licensing agreements bar a generation licence. this is costly and cumbersome though, which is why many of the smaller wind farm owners enter into power procurement agreements with the likes of Electric Ireland, Airtricity etc.... the power companies guarantee the wind farm owners a fixed price. and handle all the transactions on their behalf.

Essentially though, if the wind farm is foreign-owned, all the money will leave the country bar any tax applied to the profits - however, the taxes levied on electricity are nothing compared to those applied to drilling rights.

blowtorch

I've been wondering - Windfarms in Ireland - how many are actually putting electricity into the National Grid. And do we have a similar situation to http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/8770937/Wind-farm-paid-1.2-million-to-produce-no-electricity.html ?

Was listening to George Hook yesterday and he had someone on about these 1000+ pylons between Kildare and Cork. The guest said something about all of these windfarms needing this extra addition to the grid so that they could distribute the power they generated - so is it a case that windfarms are not running to capacity and only supplying a small proportion of the electricity they can generate?

pljudge321

blowtorch wrote: »

I've been wondering - Windfarms in Ireland - how many are actually putting electricity into the National Grid. And do we have a similar situation to http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/energy/windpower/8770937/Wind-farm-paid-1.2-million-to-produce-no-electricity.html ?

Was listening to George Hook yesterday and he had someone on about these 1000+ pylons between Kildare and Cork. The guest said something about all of these windfarms needing this extra addition to the grid so that they could distribute the power they generated - so is it a case that windfarms are not running to capacity and only supplying a small proportion of the electricity they can generate?

We only have to curtail wind output a very small amount of the time at current. It only happens if wind gets up to around 50% of instantaneous electricity production. The upgrades to the grid to 2025 are with the aim of letting us get to up 70% instantaneous production and more often.

In short answer no, the vast majority of the energy they generate gets into the grid. The long wait for wind farm connections is because the system was not designed for significant levels of in-feed from wind farms. This is why they bundle wind farms into groups before checking which lines will need to be upgraded.

Aidan1

It only happens if wind gets up to around 50% of instantaneous electricity production

To be fair, it also happens from time to time in particular areas if there is a lot of capacity behind a grid constraint, and units have to be powered off to protect the grid (Donegal being a case in point). Your general point is entirely true though, the vast majority of the electricity generated from wind farms makes its way onto the grid, because they have priority access (dispatch) under EU law. Pumped hydro does not, because it's not renewable.

Also, it should be said that while wind is a key reason why the grid is being built out, there are also issues around reinforcing the existing grid and allowing better use of conventional generation capacity - there is more capacity in the Cork harbour region than can be exported out of there for example, something that will become more important when Moneypoint enterrs its twilight years.

Capt'n Midnight

patgill wrote: »

How long is a piece of string, we could also compare it to expressed interest in OCGT, CCGT or CHP, unfortunately nuclear is presently of the table in Ireland.

Similar situation worldwide.

cba looking it up , it's on ESB / SONI site somewhere and it's about 6 times our peak capacity

there is also about 300MW tidal for NI in the next few years

valamhic

Ten years ago the Spaniards were told to develop massive solar and wind energy. It will cut reliance of imported fuel and provide the energy to create a successful economy with great employment opportunities for the people, they were told. Government swallowed the entire hype from the renewable energy lobby. They directed conventional generators to carry the renewable day-to-day running costs on their balance sheets as a government backed debt. They clearly believed the day would come when wind and solar would deliver and saving would be made on imported fuel.
Early this year, the debt had accrued to 24,000,000,000 euros. The Energy Minister announced that he was cutting subsidies to all future wind farms (solar is already cut out). He then when on to recommend that the rest of Europe play catch-up and continue installing wind mills. Now Spain is near a bail-out, the employment promised never arrived (25% unemployment now). Last months increases in electricity amounted to 7% and 5% for gas. They are still importing as much fossil fuel as ever (taking the reduced industrial activity into account). Meanwhile the Minister said jobs were being lost to France due to high power costs. Still, we Irish don't mind this minor detail, we are ploughing ahead with a massive wind programme. So its near time to consider getting out.

BluntGuy

valamhic wrote: »

Early this year, the debt had accrued to 24,000,000,000 euros.

Of which a relatively small (but admittedly still significant) amount is due to the electricity generation.

the employment promised never arrived (25% unemployment now).

Tens of thousands of jobs are supported by the Spanish wind industry.

Still, we Irish don't mind this minor detail, we are ploughing ahead with a massive wind programme. So its near time to consider getting out.

How should we reduce our dependence on fossil fuels in the absence of wind programmes then?

luohaoran

Heroditas wrote: »

If you own a wind farm and sell electricity into the pool, you keep all the proceeds for yourself.
You also get paid capacity payments when the wind farm is able to generate.
You then pay tax on the money earned, same as any other business.
As far as I'm aware, there are no licensing agreements bar a generation licence. this is costly and cumbersome though, which is why many of the smaller wind farm owners enter into power procurement agreements with the likes of Electric Ireland, Airtricity etc.... the power companies guarantee the wind farm owners a fixed price. and handle all the transactions on their behalf.

Essentially though, if the wind farm is foreign-owned, all the money will leave the country bar any tax applied to the profits - however, the taxes levied on electricity are nothing compared to those applied to drilling rights.

ok, thanks.
So it would logically follow that maintaining ownership of the wind farms is high priority, if keeping the money in the Irish economy is a priority.
Which begs my next question,... When , say a big Danish turbine manufacturer goes into partnership with, say an Irish collective, for the supply of turbines, does a certain amount of equity get given away, i.e. a percentage ownership of the resulting wind farm? I'm assuming that very few Irish based interests have the financial wherewithall to either borrow or pay for the hardware and installation.

And, coming at this from the other angle, does the Irish state have the ability to set the prices, specifically for wind production, such that Irish wind energy prices are favorable to Irish consumers of electricity? Thus garnering a net gain for Ireland inc, irrespective of wind farm ownership? (Or more precisely could they tweak the existing arrangement to allow for this?)
Yes I did read some info on the pricing system, but I didn't see enough detail to answer the above.

luohaoran

patgill wrote: »

luohaoran,

Thats a very good question, I will return to it later today as time permits, however the following link might interest you.

http://www.energyco-ops.ie/

Thanks Pat, the SOI page on that site had some info that I wasn't aware of , and served as an encouraging update on the SOI status.

BluntGuy

I took a look through the thread, just a note about some recent posts which caught my attention.

Dan Jaman wrote: »

And?
So what's missing in this scenario?

Pumped storage - that's what makes wind work.
I don't know why I'm even bothering to reply to someone who is out to do nothing but wield a hatchet on the idea. Jeez, it's like arguing with retards.

Dan Jaman wrote: »

Ah, I see the NIMBYs have changed their tactics and tried to bring in some technical idiots.

Any more crap like that will get bans.

Fabo wrote:

its very funny reading these comments. how ordinary people can be spoofed by a complete waffler like pat gill who could hardly answer any of the questions without stuttering and waffling (reminiscent of a certain taoiseach who also bluffed the irish peasants)

Pat Gill posts here and as such will be shown the same level of basic respect any other poster is shown - that is not being personally insulted. Attack his opinions all you like, but personal insults are not acceptable here.

Thanks,

Heroditas

luohaoran wrote: »

ok, thanks.
So it would logically follow that maintaining ownership of the wind farms is high priority, if keeping the money in the Irish economy is a priority.

It would indeed.

luohaoran wrote: »

Which begs my next question,... When , say a big Danish turbine manufacturer goes into partnership with, say an Irish collective, for the supply of turbines, does a certain amount of equity get given away, i.e. a percentage ownership of the resulting wind farm? I'm assuming that very few Irish based interests have the financial wherewithall to either borrow or pay for the hardware and installation.

I suppose it depends on the partnership and whether they have the financial clout but, yes, I would wager that very few Irish interests would have the money to pay for the turbines and installation.
Even a single turbine is a significant investment - building 20MW of them is a huge amount of money unless it's the likes of the utilities doing it.

luohaoran wrote: »

And, coming at this from the other angle, does the Irish state have the ability to set the prices, specifically for wind production, such that Irish wind energy prices are favorable to Irish consumers of electricity? Thus garnering a net gain for Ireland inc, irrespective of wind farm ownership? (Or more precisely could they tweak the existing arrangement to allow for this?)
Yes I did read some info on the pricing system, but I didn't see enough detail to answer the above.

Tricky one.
There would be an outcry if the government/CER started interfering to such an extent. There are very strict rules regarding pricing and this could be deemed to be too much interference in an open market.
Despite what many people say, the Single Electricity Market has been hailed as a prime example of how an electricity market can work very well.
Too much interfering could undo a lot of that work.
Even despite this, there is constant battling behind the scenes between the CER and various lobbying groups and the energy companies.

luohaoran

So, even if we had the whole island covered in wind turbines, and fossil fuel prices had gone through the roof, the higher price of electrical energy would feed directly into the pockets of the owners, and not into a cheaper green fuel for the Irish people. (with the exception of our staggeringly low corporation tax)
OMG.

I can only assume that the cunning Irish politician has planned for all this, and his next step is to raise the taxes paid by companies producing electricity from Irish renewables. (Once the gear has been installed, hehehe!)
Great! No worries! (Poor corporate suckers)
:rolleyes:

Heroditas

luohaoran wrote: »

So, even if we had the whole island covered in wind turbines, and fossil fuel prices had gone through the roof, the higher price of electrical energy would feed directly into the pockets of the owners, and not into a cheaper green fuel for the Irish people. (with the exception of our staggeringly low corporation tax)
OMG.

Theoretically, if 99.9% of demand was met by wind and the remaining 0.1% was generated by a fossil-fuel plant and the electricity from the fossil fuel plant was €90 per MWh ... all the wind farms would benefit from that higher price (clearing price).

However, we're currently benefiting from the older plants being taken out of the system and not being called on to generate because of the wind farms.
The likes of the Endesa owned plants have been idle for a number of years now.
They still get paid capacity payments though because of their ability to generate when called upon, despite the fact that they're not really needed.

Meanwhile, the turf burning plants benefit from large subsidies (subsidies which are being phased out over the next few years) while they are the "dirtiest" generators in the system.
This falls under the "security of supply" remit.

So on one hand we're trying to cut CO2 emissions and maintain security of supply while at the same time pumping out CO2 while burning turf to maintain that same security of supply.
Kind of analogous to pulling in different directions, isn't it?

Fabo

great wind speeds alright :

06/05/12 (watch out for the prediction that wind will rise later in the day)

http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/

05/05/12: (look how they had to adjust forecast suddenly to show slump in wind)

http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/

03/05/12:
http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/

02/05/12:
http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/

01/05/12:
http://www.eirgrid.com/operations/systemperformancedata/windgeneration/

wind turbines what a load of hippie nonsense (and you and i are paying for them).

and when they do provide energy, its to meet a demand thats not there, its like building a car without wheels and compensating the company for there being no demand for their product. and we are still buying the same amount of gas and oil as we ever were.

scam ?

this is the greatest ever pulled ! credit where credit is due !

patgill

luohaoran wrote: »

So, even if we had the whole island covered in wind turbines, and fossil fuel prices had gone through the roof, the higher price of electrical energy would feed directly into the pockets of the owners, and not into a cheaper green fuel for the Irish people. (with the exception of our staggeringly low corporation tax)
OMG.

I can only assume that the cunning Irish politician has planned for all this, and his next step is to raise the taxes paid by companies producing electricity from Irish renewables. (Once the gear has been installed, hehehe!)
Great! No worries! (Poor corporate suckers)
:rolleyes:

luohaoran,

Apologies gor the delay in getting back to you, I couldn't disagree with much of what Heorditas has written.

It all comes down to who owns the wind farm. I suggest reading the following Feasta document titled Aggresive Mutuality as an example of how it could work


Could it work in practice ? West Clare Renewables suggests it can work very well

valamhic

pljudge321 wrote: »

Japan has loads of pumped hydro because they have loads of nuclear plants. And a significant amount of that pumped hydro is of the pump back dam variety which makes the capital expenditure more justifiable.

Look at the graph on page 7 http://hmrc.ucc.ie/econdocs/Pdf/12-Deane.pdf. Notice how closely correlated the level of installed nuclear is against the level of installed PH. Also notice how it levels off once the 90's start. That's when highly efficient flexible gas plants started being built everywhere. These plants eliminated the need for expensive oil fired peaking plants. This removed the massive price differential between the base load and the peak load which made PH economically viable.

Japan's pumped storage is 250 meters diameter and located on the edge of a cliff at the sea's edge. Its really a glorified swimming pool. The looney's in Spirit of Ireland want to draw sea water several miles inland. Its a crazy nutty suggestion. The canal taking the sea water in would be the size of a large river with a drop of 1 meter per kilo meter towards the facility.
The bottom would need 6 " of concrete and a 2 " rubber membrane to stop sea water getting into ground water. This water would be toxic to all that touch it.
Nutters: worse still are the idiots who listen to them. No wonder Europe is bankrupt.

Waestrel

valamhic wrote: »

Japan's pumped storage is 250 meters diameter and located on the edge of a cliff at the sea's edge. Its really a glorified swimming pool. The looney's in Spirit of Ireland want to draw sea water several miles inland. Its a crazy nutty suggestion. The canal taking the sea water in would be the size of a large river with a drop of 1 meter per kilo meter towards the facility.
The bottom would need 6 " of concrete and a 2 " rubber membrane to stop sea water getting into ground water. This water would be toxic to all that touch it.
Nutters: worse still are the idiots who listen to them. No wonder Europe is bankrupt.

Strong language. Looneys, idiots etc. Why? Are your grand schemes so much more practical?

patgill

valamhic wrote: »

The bottom would need 6 " of concrete and a 2 " rubber membrane to stop sea water getting into ground water. This water would be toxic to all that touch it.
Nutters: worse still are the idiots who listen to them. No wonder Europe is bankrupt.

Val,
Tomorrow is Fathers day and maybe the childer might buy you a copy of http://www.journals.elsevier.com/geotextiles-and-geomembranes/

Since when is sea water toxic ?

Markcheese

No idea wether it'd work or not , I'm sure if they ever get round to build it they'll have a good idea
Main thing for me would be , it'd private money building it , not some political football....if it gets built the money gets spent in the west.... If it works brilliant , if not it's not a loss to the taxpayer...

Capt'n Midnight

Markcheese wrote: »

Main thing for me would be , it'd private money building it , not some political football....if it gets built the money gets spent in the west.... If it works brilliant , if not it's not a loss to the taxpayer...

Bait and switch

as others have pointed out many of the costs of similar projects are pitched at a low value in the hope of a govt. bail out when the project is half way through

Markcheese

Kind of depends on the backers , if the 3 or 4 billion you've invested in a longterm project could be wiped out by a gov bailout you'd do some pretty serious checking on the engineering and economics....
How did things like the Chunnel get funded ?

Capt'n Midnight

Imagine someone like Sony or Nissan indirectly investing in a Sakhalin tunnel, with the Japanese govt. picking up the tab.

They loose out on the tunnel investment, but win on the subsidised exports, trains are much faster than ships and a lot cheaper than aircraft.

trap4

So now Belgium is planning a (kind of) upside down Spirit of Ireland - http://dvice.com/archives/2013/01/belgium-wants-t.php

patgill

trap4

Worldwide over a $100 billion is being invested in the nascent electricity storage industry between now and the end of the decade.

The age of oil is now drawing to a close and this will have large ramifications for our economic future because for the first time in centuries Ireland will be competing on an equal footing.

We had very little coal with which to do battle in the age of steam.

We had very little oil with which to compete in the age of oil.

But in the age of electricity we have enormous domestic resources, wind wave and biomass along with strong interconnection and storage facilities will change Irelands economic potential totally.

valamhic

Who says oil is drawing to a close? All the world's ships are still using it, all aircraft are using it, all farming is using it. Land based bio fuel was hailed as the replacement, now the EU are forced to ban it because its not green at all, just used more fuel oil to produce than it gives output.

Wave energy is just another form of wind energy.

Republic of Ireland was told to install wind farms and there would be happy days. Now we have wind capacity of 1,900 mw with average demand about 3,400 mw. Thats well over 50%. We have no savings in fuel or emission savings and the forth highest electricity prices in the world.

valamhic

electricity was always paid for in a 2 monthly bill. There were some who did not pay through negligence etc. Now thousands are in arrears because we have to pay for the traditional system and wind in duplication. Wind cannot be fed into a grid 100% and its being curtailed big time and still paid for by consummers. Night time demand in Ireland is about 1800 mw , which is 100 mw less than wind capacity, yet the hot fossil plant is still running the same as ever. The latest thing is to install automatic disconnection machines in homes, aka pre payt meters and they tell the people that its a great idea. Some people think it is, not able to see that if there was no wind , they could afford to pay in the traditional way.

Wind is not a resourse, it cannot be used to generate mains power

valamhic

Pat Gill spends his time trying to put out "happy talk" about wind energy, pumped storage etc. He always has some new wonderful renewable idea to announce and utopia is always just around the corner. But like the end of the rainbow, it never arrives, instead we see increases in power charges. Electricity generation accounts for 25% if Ireland's use of energy. There is still 75 % to come from elsewhere. Electric cars were muted as a great idea, but there is a charging point in Bailieboro and I never saw a car being charged. Pat is all drugged up on increasing the amount of power generation, he never says what we are to do with it. Why do we need all this power, we need jobs and growth but we are fed higher energy prices to drive industry out.

nokia69

valamhic wrote: »

Who says oil is drawing to a close? All the world's ships are still using it, all aircraft are using it, all farming is using it. Land based bio fuel was hailed as the replacement, now the EU are forced to ban it because its not green at all, just used more fuel oil to produce than it gives output.

Wave energy is just another form of wind energy.

Republic of Ireland was told to install wind farms and there would be happy days. Now we have wind capacity of 1,900 mw with average demand about 3,400 mw. Thats well over 50%. We have no savings in fuel or emission savings and the forth highest electricity prices in the world.

oil production has peaked, we are now in the plateau which could last for ten years or more, but after that we will start to see production declines

when the tar sands in canada are the low hanging fruit then you should know that the oil is running out

BTW I'm no fan of wind energy or spirit of Ireland, its pie in the sky stuff

nokia69

valamhic wrote: »

Pat Gill spends his time trying to put out "happy talk" about wind energy, pumped storage etc. He always has some new wonderful renewable idea to announce and utopia is always just around the corner. But like the end of the rainbow, it never arrives, instead we see increases in power charges. Electricity generation accounts for 25% if Ireland's use of energy. There is still 75 % to come from elsewhere. Electric cars were muted as a great idea, but there is a charging point in Bailieboro and I never saw a car being charged. Pat is all drugged up on increasing the amount of power generation, he never says what we are to do with it. Why do we need all this power, we need jobs and growth but we are fed higher energy prices to drive industry out.

Electric cars are a great idea, just because you never saw one being charged at the local charge point does not make them a bad idea

most people with electric cars charge them at home, its only on a long trip that they would need a public charge point

right now the best car in the world is the Tesla model S, have a look at the videos on youtube, right now its too expensive for the average person but give it ten years and the price will drop, electric cars will slowly become more popular but it will take years before they become common place

I could also see natural gas cars sell well in the years ahead