Spirit of Ireland - A bright spark in today's economic gloom?

Sponge Bob

Furet wrote: »

what steps would be taken, from an engineering point of view, to secure and strengthen the valleys themselves to limit the possibility of natural crumbling.

I suspect they will go for areas with Granite which is a rather hard rock to say the least.

Apropos confirmation bias. Have a look at this! Not quite the same thing and yet not not quite the same thing :cool:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b686ad54-2a15-11df-b940-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1

Energy groups to launch plan for European ‘super-grid’

An ambitious plan for an electricity “super-grid” in the North Sea will be launched in London on Monday by a group of 10 leading European companies.


Such a super-grid connecting the UK, Germany and Norway is expected to cost €34bn ($46bn).


Mainstream said the super-grid would be commercially viable even if only used to connect offshore wind farms, but would be even more attractive if used for international electricity trading; for example, meeting peak demand in the UK with cheaper supply from Germany.


Increased use of hydro-electric power from Norway is widely seen as an attractive option for backing up wind power.

Bård Mikkelsen, chief executive of Statkraft, Norway’s state-owned power company, told the FT recently: “Hydro power in Norway should be valuable for compensating for the irregularity of wind power. That position – being a swing producer to the European market – is a very important role for us.”

Alun

Furet wrote: »

Question:

As I understand it, Spirit of Ireland involves building at least two enormous dams across the mouths of valleys, with the back and sides of the valley forming three natural walls. How will the dam be secured? Don't mountains erode? Isn't it possible that the areas where the dam is fastened into the natural valley walls will also erode? And will erosion not lead to dam failure?

I'm just wondering what the life expectancy of these dams would be, and what steps would be taken, from an engineering point of view, to secure and strengthen the valleys themselves to limit the possibility of natural crumbling.

I think I'd also be concerned about the strains put on any dam in this scenario by the repeated, and relatively rapid, filling and emptying cycles of the reservoir behind it, something a normal dam doesn't experience to anywhere near the same degree.

BluntGuy

I would hope that these issues would be tackled and explained in the reference designs, but we bloody well need to see them! How close are they to having them ready?

NRA's murphaph

I notice in the SoI presentation last year which you can find on youtube.com (its title is "Spirit of Ireland Group" a 42 minute video), you can see a map of the potential dam locations (it had black dots). I notice the southern face of the Dingle peninsula had the highest concentration of such schemes in the country. This development in an otherwise backward area (economically speaking) that I hope the locals would welcome in the interests of national economic security/survival.

crushproof

Just watched the Youtube presentation there, dear god this has to get going right now!!

It's just so simple and practical, it's amazing!

I can't even being to convey my praise for the folks behind it, it's just simply superb!

Only problem now is trying to get that shower in government having the vision to back it.....is it just me who believes that they'll somehow sabotage it and ruin the plan?!

Dan Jaman

@ crushproof.
It wouldn't surprise me if that useless shower sit on their hands and hum and haw until it's too late. With an election in the wind sometime, they might want to appease voters in the nimby camp and pander to the environmentalists too.

I really hope this goes through - just imagine an Ireland near or wholly self-sufficient in energy and not a smokestack to be seen.
No nukes, either Brill.

gpjordanf1

Dan Jaman wrote: »

@ crushproof.
It wouldn't surprise me if that useless shower sit on their hands and hum and haw until it's too late. With an election in the wind sometime, they might want to appease voters in the nimby camp and pander to the environmentalists too.

I really hope this goes through - just imagine an Ireland near or wholly self-sufficient in energy and not a smokestack to be seen.
No nukes, either Brill.

Totally agree with what you say and others that have positive comments.

The problem is were a country of talkers and very little action behind it.

You turn on your radio / tv most days and theres somebody or some group giving it loads about someone or the government that needs change. Then the next day you see someone else or some other group giving it loads again and you never hear of them again!

Were a nation of sound bites! We have let this government walk all over us, they blame everybody else for the state of the country. It wasn't there fault! Were two years into a recession and they decide to set up a task force to look into it? WHAT! Remember in the boom times when the media said we were booming because the rest of the world was? Well then the Government INSISTED that it was totally down to the governments policy and foresight. Well I remember it very clearly. Bunch of liars!
Anyway I'm getting side tracked here with rage.

What we need to do as a nation is simple, we need to get organised, march on Dublin and DEMAND what this country needs and this project is one of those needs!

Remember in the last few years the only group of people in this nation to put intense pressure on the government to fight for their rights and needs was the pensioners and they won! So people what are we going to do? Talk about his project or demand action on it now, not later!

Jesus reading back on that it sounds like a call to revolution! :eek::eek::eek::D

Heroditas

crushproof wrote: »

It's just so simple and practical, it's amazing!

If it's so simple and practical, why haven't the power generators already done it?

Dan Jaman

Heroditas wrote: »

If it's so simple and practical, why haven't the power generators already done it?

Pumped storage has been around for years. This is just a next step and like conventional pumped storage, takes a big bucks approach to make it work. Sure, if you were a wealthy landowner, you could have done a small scale one yourself, by now. Privately-owned pumped storage is pretty scarce, but to draw a comparision, privately-owned small hydro schemes aren't at all uncommon in many parts of the world.
I've absolutely no doubt that if the original pumped storage schemes were to be mooted now, they'd run into all the petty trivial objections and sheer bloody-minded obstructionism that's so rampant these days.

dowlingm

This is a little different from pumped storage as we know it at the moment (Turlough Hill)

Because seawater is proposed, salinity will increase corrosion and there could be concern about infiltration to nearby water tables

Second, if bidirectional turbines are used for generation and refilling, marine microorganisms could gum up the works.

I would think in terms of using conventional windmills to push the water uphill mechanically (a simple technology known for hundreds of years) and unidirectional generation turbines for downhill, so that the equipment and tunnels can be frequently inspected.

I'm not quite so bothered about the mechanical stresses - in theory these reservoirs will probably bounce around 40-80% full for the majority of their use since they will probably be designed with a large reserve capacity for times when winds are low.

I don't think there's much harm in funding a single install in the best location, but am very sceptical about the overall claims for this project and particularly some of the sales pitch used in respect of patriotism and the national interest, and the amount of land that will to be expropriated will be substantial and the environmental impacts are not trivial - not least because drowning a valley means not only removing the oxygen generating plants that live there, but causing CO2 and methane emissions from their rotting.

Packet

dowlingm wrote: »

drowning a valley means not only removing the oxygen generating plants that live there, but causing CO2 and methane emissions from their rotting.

The fossil fuels that wouldn't be burnt over the lifetime of the project would compensate for that many times over.

rainbowdash

Heroditas wrote: »

If it's so simple and practical, why haven't the power generators already done it?

If its such a simple and brilliant idea how come no other country has embraced it largescale. I understand there is a similar concept in Japan on a small enough scale for the last 10 years or so, its not like its a new technology.

By all means build a reasonable size model (lets project 10% of our energy requirements) but drop the energy exporters in 5 years spin and be a bit realistic.

Yixian

Enough talk, DO IT.

All the major parties "support" SoI but where is the pledge? Ireland has the most to gain from energy independence and the mos to lose from oncreased oil price - GET A MOVE ON, if oil prices spiked tomorrow it'd just about be a death blow to the ****ing country in it's current state... Even in 5 years if Ireland is enjoying the Celtic Tiger v2, oil prices could instantly plunge the economy into recession with a country so utterly an pathetically dependent on oil.

GO GO GO ffs..

NRA's murphaph

To get this going I'll have to tell Blanche and Dorthy to have a "chat" and to blackmail pull some strings with some of the high ups.

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote: »

They were in the Oireachtas today but there was nothing new apart from them admitting that the wind and hydro would be bunched very tightly together

Transcript here some time

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/CommitteeMenu.aspx?Dail=30&Cid=CL

The transcript of their Oireachtas presentation is now online 2 weeks later

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=CLJ20100303.XML&Ex=All&Page=1

Yixian

So... is SoI effectively "adopted" by the government now? It seems as if it has basically been absorbed into the governments future plans.

If so.. where was the big bang? The lack thereof had better not signal some kind of dilution of the scale oft he thing.. the importance of the project cannot be overstated.

murphaph

rainbowdash wrote: »

If its such a simple and brilliant idea how come no other country has embraced it largescale. I understand there is a similar concept in Japan on a small enough scale for the last 10 years or so, its not like its a new technology.

I think to make it work you need a combination of glacial U shaped valleys of very hard rock (like granite) and strong winds and a big demand for electricity in the area and with no "easier" supplies of energy to hand (eg Norway...plenty of conventional hydro so no need to do it this way). I suspect the numbers of places that meet all these critera are actually quite low..vast parts of the world simply don't have the demand/money to develop such schemes even if they had the right geography (most of Africa for example) and many places have no people (Antarctica, Siberia) so the transmission lines would have to be mega long to deliver the juice to actual consumers. Ireland has the advantage that we are near to Europe and have strong domestic demand anyway and precious other resources to exploit.

Yixian

murphaph wrote: »

I think to make it work you need a combination of glacial U shaped valleys of very hard rock (like granite) and strong winds and a big demand for electricity in the area and with no "easier" supplies of energy to hand (eg Norway...plenty of conventional hydro so no need to do it this way). I suspect the numbers of places that meet all these critera are actually quite low..vast parts of the world simply don't have the demand/money to develop such schemes even if they had the right geography (most of Africa for example) and many places have no people (Antarctica, Siberia) so the transmission lines would have to be mega long to deliver the juice to actual consumers. Ireland has the advantage that we are near to Europe and have strong domestic demand anyway and precious other resources to exploit.

Also, the west coast of Ireland is almost completely unindustrialised. Even if Britain had these geographical features at one time, it'd be impossible to implement it now without ripping up miles upon miles of concrete and tarmac that bathes the island.

murphaph

I fear that if we don't really evaluate this proposal (and act upon it if it is truly feasible) then the Scots will get in there before us.

Yixian

Well apparently the SoI team are working with the government on selecting the locations in the west for this project now... is this the case?

Sounds almost too good to be true...

There have been some changes on Spirit of Ireland's site too, the forums are no longer open to the public.

Perhaps it's all go? Keep your eyes peeled for a press release soonish I think..

patgill

Hi all

I have been trying to find the time to say hello for the past few days and finally made it today.

I have enjoyed the range of comments covered over the last few pages and want to thank you for your support, the project is progressing very well in all aspects, as most of you have sussed, the engineering is the easy part of this project.

We are at present briefing the government on our progress to date and during this process I cannot comment in much detail, however I am happy to talk about general engineering concepts and I believe that we will begin to engage again with media very soon, you may have noticed that begin to happen already.

I will answer one or two of the questions raised recently in this thread and will attempt to guide you in the direction of an answer if a question is asked about specific aspects not yet discussed with the government.

The reservoirs will have a design life of approx 50 years but I would be prepared to bet that my great great grandchildren will still be using this infrastructure even if nuclear fusion is common by then. Ok they may need new turbines every 50 years, that will not be a very onerous job and wind will probably not be the main source of the pumping energy in 25 years, at that stage ocean energy will be sharing the burden, I also know that there is at least two smart Kerrymen working independently on an application that will have a big impact on the renewable energy mix within a decade and will be a pleasant surprise for at least one poster who referred to using an older technology a couple of pages ago.

The hydraulic pressures on the dam are well understood and will not be a problem

Welcome to the era of the renewable energy power station, carbon free, fuel free and price stable electricity to power Ireland through the 21st century.

Pat

gpjordanf1

patgill wrote: »

Welcome to the era of the renewable energy power station, carbon free, fuel free and price stable electricity to power Ireland through the 21st century.

Pat

I really wish I could believe that pat?

del88

I'd love to see the whole country get behind the green economy......Ireland becoming the greenest country in the world...Now this is not to save the world or anything ,i just think it would be a great selling point for the country ...the emerald isles and all of that.
It's an awfully pity the greens have messed up so badly getting in to bed with fianna fail...i fear they have seriously giving the self sufficient green agenda a bad name.......a movement without a voice.

del88

Stark wrote: »

Thought the bit where Chuck lands Casey in it was brilliant.

Random??????

Stark

Wrong tab, sorry.

del88

Stark wrote: »

Wrong tab, sorry.

Back to The Cuckoo's Nest with you...

patgill

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

I really wish I could believe that pat?

Keep the faith and begin to see the evidence being revealed bit by bit, the Clare wind strategy, now includes pumped storage. This will be the norm all along the west coast within 12 months.

This enables realistic planning and note that the local authorities will be deciding which areas are appropriate for energy production after taking into consideration such items as Habitats and conservation areas, population and heritage, and of course wind speeds, this is a very democratic process and I hope some of the fears outlined by our initial mention of such things as legislative changes, are being put to rest, the first wind project to be put through the new Clare planning guidelines is being examined with a real scrutiny that is a credit to the council, this not a rubber stamp affair.

And using this system, other agencies like Eirgrid will now know which areas of the country need their attention and nobody needs to waste money applying for a windfarm in the wrong place, the banks and funders will particularly like that.

Soil Mechanic

Some Links for the threads consideration:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8377186.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osmotic_power

http://www.nordicenergysolutions.org/inspirational/renewable-energy-where-salt-water-meets-fresh-water

http://www.statkraft.com/energy-sources/osmotic-power/

Whilst still at a conceptual stage
(N.B. in as much as the Okinawa saline pumped-storage plant is...*Hint*)
one can't help but notice the beautiful symmetry in the infrastructural layout for both applications...
NOTE: the potential for freshwater surface runoff into a saltwater resevior
v.s. the potential for a form of 'perimeter storage membrane' if you will...

Not to mention the potential of such technology to provide a reliable Base Load capability...

Again probably not viable just now, but just for consideration.

Thoughts?

gpjordanf1

patgill wrote: »

Keep the faith and begin to see the evidence being revealed bit by bit, the Clare wind strategy, now includes pumped storage. This will be the norm all along the west coast within 12 months.

Oh I have no doubt in you guys Pat, its just when you mention those dreaded words "Government Involvement" and "Planning", I get a cold shudder, like when someone walk on your grave.

Because when those bodies are involved in projects of urgency, well there is no urgency. Things progress at a snails pace and I feel we'll miss the boat and again its the people who will suffer at the hands of government incompetence.

You will have to keep a tight grip of this Project Pat so the rot doesn't set in and derail it!

Goodluck you'll need it!

zod

With regards to the "Your country your call" initiative is the poster here (idea 516) from spirit of Ireland ?