Buddhist Temples in Asia

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Hi there,
I have thought long and hard about this, and I've finally decided to travel around Thailand and most of Asia next year, for about a year or two. My main reason for doing this is to visit a Buddhist temple with a detox programme, particularly one that lets me take the Satja Vow. After reading Paul Garrigan's book, I am totally inspired to do this.
http://web.mac.com/paulgarrigan/iWeb/Last%20Escape/Welcome.html

Can someone recommend some temples I could visit? I was planning on doing the detox thing at Wat Thamkrabok.. but I would also like to visit another temple after I have taken the Satja Vow, and stay there for a few weeks... as long as I would be welcome at least.

If you have taken the Satja Vow, visited Buddhist temples in Asia and/or embarked on a detox programme please write about your experiences here.

studiorat

Hey there,
My Brother is familiar with that place. He was out there last year and is heading out again to work there in June. He's in regular contact with the place.

Just passed on your message to him, if you want to send me a PM I'll pass on all the contact details for the Irish connection and the Abbot etc.

Regards,
'Rat

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PM sent.

Sparklingangel

Hi I am Audrey and I have was a patient at Thamkrabok. I now along with Gary Devine who is over there and has ordained as a monk, started a website for Irish people wanting to go to Thamkrabok. here is the website. www.templedetox.ie We currently have many people from Ireland doing the detox from alcohol, heroin, methadone, tranquilizers, hash, cocaine, and a major load of subscription drug users to. Like sleeping pills and anti depressants. I will pm you my no. Or you can contact me through our web page. You will find me in contacts and on the about us page. WE will certinly assist you in any way we can.

with metta.

Audrey

studiorat

Hi Audrey,
I think you should back up the statistics on your site. I doubt if either you or Gary really do have a proper grasp on your figures. And considering most addicts are notorious liars I would am asking you to back up your claim. The system here has worked for plenty of people. I thinks it's very iresponsible of you to suggest your method is better.

Maybe you would like to show me how you arrived at these "statistics".


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Don't forget that de-tox is the easy part. The hard part is staying clean.

Sparklingangel

We have a full report that is available to the appropriate people. Our report clearly states that it is only done in the last four years on the people who we have been involved with and are still involved. You are branding people who you know absolutely nothing about. But then their is always those negative people who criticise. With that energy I would imagine you would feel better and put it into a cause and fight that is close to your heart. This report is treated confidential as names and privacy is taken seriously. But it available for those involved and HSE etc. We are totaly aware of the after care and remember the monks in Thailand are treating Irish people for free they could not possilbey look after them when they come home continue with that when they all come home. Our country has 35 beds for public patients. We have between 10,000 to 15,000 resgistered heroin/methadone addicts alone in Dublin. This is not even mentioning prescription drugs or alcohol. Remember the amount of people who dont register anywhere. I totally agree with you we do not have a good after care so people like myself and others volunteer and try and get information and support for addicts the best we can. Our rehabs and recovery centers will only take people when they are a few weeks clean. How easy is that when you are an addict. So the monastery takes you no matter what state you are in. You go home clean. Its the first step.

The system here is not working for plenty of people. It has worked for a few. I am dealing with it on a daily basis. Maybe you would like to show me your staticis on that. But you are completly right if our country put more into the after care both residential and centres of support. Every detox would be more successful.

I do not have to show you any reports as you are a nickname on a board. Whereas I am completly honest with who I am and my experience. But they are available when you have the right papers of entitlement and a signed confidential agreement with your organisation and ours.

At the end of the day its not about statisics. We put our statistics forward as its what we get asked all the time. Its the first question before the "how much does it Cost to do it". Its about commitment, an available affordable bed, an alternative method and not going from drugs to other drug substitutes which line the pockets of Doctors namingly methadone. The hardest drug to withdraw of. If you withdraw from heroin the sickness is not as severe.

WE deal with people on soap boxes all the time. We are helping people, what is it you do.

with loving kindness

Audrey

studiorat

Thank you for your wishes of loving kindness Audrey, though I doubt if it is sincere.

I also seriously doubt that you have a proper report Audrey. I've met Gary on plenty of occasions he's not the smartest man I've ever met and there's no way he could get that together. Of all the cases going to Thailand of which I've heard of quite a few at this stage you my dear would appear to be the inly one I've heard of who is still clean. I've also seen users use the fact that they are planning a trip out there as an excuse to keep on using.

There are currently about 14,500 drug misusers in the country. Half of which are unregistered according to the HSE btw.

Now my issue with your treatment is the appears to be absolutely no back-up for people arriving back from Thailand. You are simply replacing an addiction to drugs with an addiction to religion. In your case it would seem an addiction to helping people. In fact your criticism of existing treatment structures here is certainly not helping either. Detoxing is all well and good but what happens when people arrive back to normality? It would seem nothing. Except for top up trips back to Thailand. Apart from suggesting people attend NA you are not doing anything.

I wonder how many of the regular users could afford the €1,500 or so it actually costs to get get there and do the treatment.

In my opinion it's a glorified bloody holiday.

I had already offered the OP contact details for you, without my opinion on the treatment. Since you have decided to advertise your website, I decided to make my opinion on the monestry known.

I'd like to also wish the OP the best of luck with whatever they decide to do. Though I'd seriously re-consider the idea of going on a "walkabout" after the treatment.

Sparklingangel

You are so entitled to your opinion. I do not have a religious addiction nor any other thank god. It is clear you have however ill feelings towards one member of our very large and ever growing committee. I do not put down the facilities here, merely the lack of. I do however condone heroin users being put on methadone instead of detoxing from it. It is an open and long going debate in the media and health board system.

My loving kindness is genuine and everyone who knows me knows that is how I treat people. I do not practice buddhism. My spirituality is my own private affair and I never talk to anyone about it. That is something private to ones own self and something you discover yourself if you ever so or want to. I know plenty of athiest who are successful happy and positive people.

What I can say is at least I am commenting on something I have done, experienced and met with others and share experiences on a regular basis. I know of only one person who took and embraced buddhism and that is Gary. That is great a few years ago he was on the street a heroin addict. But none of my committee members are anything other that recovering addicts who have experienced both Thamkrabok and home treatments. As for costs, I have met many an addict who can come up with money for their flights. If they can come up with money for drugs and have the same commitment for giving them up then they manage to come up with flight money. Remember the monastery is free. Only 48hrs notice given needed. Same people have been quoted 14,000 in centres here. That is something they do not have. If you think its a holiday then man you really do not know what you are talking about. It is back to basics. No hot water. hard beds. shared noisy dorms. Not to mention the hard detox. No phones or contact with the outside world. You have to be brave to do it.

I am not going to debate with you it is clear you know nothing about the place but speak from the outside. their is a wonderful group on google called friendsofthamkrabok and its people from all over the world who are going or have been. You will find that most who have gone go back help out and care for others from time to time. How many go back clean and visit other centres.

I will not debate with anyone who has not experienced it, its pointless. Its all assumptions. I know wonderful people who have detoxed successfully here in ireland to. But their just are not enough spaces. People are dying while they wait. But they do not detox heroin addicts, they put them on methadone. There is another way. That is all we are saying, and yes in my opinion because I have done it, a better way. If you read your last post you will see that you are just slagging addicts of and not the monastery. Its about commitment, choice, and a bed for those who want it. Those who are not serious can go and have their holiday in bangkok. Then that takes the debate out of the detox because they have not done it either. They are nothing to do with me or you. You have plenty of energy, put it into a subject you care about. This is obviously not for you. Thats fine.

again and I mean it with loving kindness, I respect your opinion and will not slander it. You come from where you came from and I where I have come from. So no more energy needed here.

I have a documentary on RTE at 9.30 on Tuesday night. You will see my loving kindness is sincere. I never wish anyone bad. Or begrudge them good. I help who I can especially those Adults hurt in childhood truama as is my experience that usually comes hand and hand alot of the time with addiction. I stick to what I know and put it to good use. I have fought my fight and will not push my ideas on you if they are not for you. I have my website and you have heard what I have had to say. You do not agree therefore I accept that. Its right for me and many others. take care .



Audrey

Sparklingangel

One article showing that just to get on methadone the waiting list. Again methadone itself is a major addiction.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0505/1224245942964.html

Paulgar

I spent years fighting my addiction until arriving at Wat Thamkrabok. I had gone through many different treatment options in both Ireland and the UK, but felt like I was trapped in a revolving door. I had almost given up all hope of cure before going through the treatment at the temple. I have also met plenty of other people who have gone through the programme and managed to maintain lasting recovery from addiction.

No religion was forced on me at Thamkrabok. Buddhism is not an evangelistic religion and there is no attempt to convert anybody to anything. The programme works fine without this.

I think that it is very churlish for people to slander a legitimate way of becoming clean or sober. It is nasty to do this and could easily take away a person's chance for a good life. The temple was the only thing that worked for me and this could be true for other people who just can't manage to get off their drug through the methods used in the west.

I am not sure of the reasons behind the remarks made by studiorat. They annoy me so much that I don't really care. The monks of Thamkrabok offer their services for free. I have lived in Thailand for almost eight years and have made the journey to and from Ireland many times and have never needed to pay as much as 1,500 euros for the trip.

I would urge anybody interested in the temple to please not allow the remarks made on this thread to put them off the temple. It really can work and does work. The temple offers a unique way of quitting drugs and does not charge for the service.

Please feel free to PM me if you have any doubts.

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Thanks to everyone for their input so far. I appreciate Paul, Audrey and studiorat's views on this. Please lets keep this on topic and try not to make any acqusations which are in no way beneificial.

I have talked with Paul about this outside of boards.ie, and I do plan on going ahead with it. I'm aware that "the detox is the easy part", afterall I have read his book. I know exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks again everyone.

Sparklingangel

You are so welcome. I would certinly recommend the google group friends of thamkrabok . So many many successful x patients and they are willing only to often to give you guidance. Good luck on your journey. It is down to you at the end of the day. Thamkrabok can give you great tools to use and a fantastic physical detox. You must put in the work when you finished. But there is alot more support now that many people have gone and we stay in touch. It helps to.

tommyhouse

Paulgar wrote: »

I spent years fighting my addiction until arriving at Wat Thamkrabok. I had gone through many different treatment options in both Ireland and the UK, but felt like I was trapped in a revolving door.


I am not sure of the reasons behind the remarks made by studiorat. They annoy me so much that I don't really care. The monks of Thamkrabok offer their services for free. I have lived in Thailand for almost eight years and have made the journey to and from Ireland many times and have never needed to pay as much as 1,500 euros for the trip.



Please feel free to PM me if you have any doubts.

Hello Paulgar, and studiorat -

I suggest everyone cool down. Statistics and facts and figures are a moot point and about as debateable as religion and politics.

I've been working in the addiction field for 12 years full time, and on the perimeters for a number of years before that. During my time in the army, I was also involved in the Welfare of my men. I suppose its fair to say what we most argue about is our /opinions/ - or what are actually our perceptions of what our opponent is putting out.

It is the easiest thing in the world to dispute statistics, actually I'm a pedantic number cruncher myself.

There are no reliable statistics for how many heroin, coke, amphetamine or crack addicts that are active in Ireland today. There are actually highly disputable figures for how many registered addicts in each HSE region. Concurrently someone who is registered on a maintenance programme can also be still using. This can skew figures that are already in doubt. Also users who cannot get on a maintenance programme, (or in very many cases their parents/partners) buy Methadone on the black market. The legitimate prescribed client is then adding to the confusion of figures.

As far as the evidence of the success of TMK goes, it is probably anecdotal. Word of mouth, personal knowledge of live bodies, Googlegroups, Facebook, MSN, drop-in meetings, committees, get-togethers and the many forums that exist today.

I have been associated with Tmk for about 6 years, and have steered clients over there. I have also steered clients to Victory Outreach, NA, Narcanon (which is Scientology based), Addicts United, Recovery Unlimited, Counselling, Psychotherapy, treatment centres, cold-turkey, weaning and religion based recovery methods of any and every description.



When someone has experienced first hand the degradation of life due to addiction, or the damage done to families and communities due to a loving son/daughters addiction, then I believe you may be entitled to debate statistics or impose restrictions on what may or may not be reliable facts or figures.

I commend Audrey and the committee that have gathered together, for what they are trying to achieve in providing an aftercare service for those who have dumped the shackles of addiction. I would expect those who have the slighest interest in the fellowship of man to support them, and not to denigrate the altruism that is all that separates us from the beasts.

As for the cost of travel to Thailand :- Current addicts spend and borrow probably in the region of €x,000 per week, depending on their habit. When a decision is made to 'do it', it has been my experience that the money will be forthcoming from many well wishing relatives. It would be an ideal situation if the government through the HSE or the NDST would provide funding, and they very well may in the distant future.

When the cost of the provision of Methadone, Doctors to precribe it, and clinics to do urine sampling, adding in Pharmacology of testing urine samples, overheads and administration of each dep't involved, not to mention the costs involved in production and delivery of it - it would make sense to seek alternatives.
(Anecdotal figures put each 80 to 120 ml scrip at €100 per day, which works out at €35,000 approx per year per addict)

€2,000 would appear to be a good once off investment.

Indeed

Take gentle care
Tommy

Paulgar

When one person quotes a negative opinion on open forum like this one it is often later accepted as fact by someone else; misinformed rumour become reason to dismiss a treatment option. I would never pooh-pooh anybody's chosen method of recovery from addiction. If it works it works. I know the temple works and that is the only point I want to make in this thread.

I returned to the temple last week to celebrate my three years of sobriety. Although I live fairly close to Wat Thamkrabok, I rarely visit; I don't need to. Anyway, it was great to see that the temple had a full house of Thai and Western patients. Thailand is a poor country yet it is willing to provide this service. Not as competition for any other method, but as a place for the hopeless to go and find hope.

I wish Audrey, Gary, and the rest of them good luck with their organisation. I will do what I can to support them.

Anyway, it is Buddhist lent here in Thailand and I have been given five days off work. I am spending it in a nice resort with my wife and son; another wonderful gift of sobriety. I don't intend to spend much of it debating on internet forums; although I will always find time to defend a special place like Thamkrabok.

ian slevin

WE know who we are man.
back off a lil. audrey is alright n she is sincere. we both know that the system for opiate abuse in irl sucks. as for other substances I dont have much experience. apart from Methadone there is little else on offer as a so called treatment. as for the treatment cantres available there are few beds available to people who dont have the funding in place. for example the rutland centre take 12 patients a year on the medical card. outside of the med card system 5 wks in rehab in the rutland and 18mths aftercare costs approx 11,400 euro, Asharee costs approx 6,800 for 30 days rehab and 1 yr aftercare and The Forest costs approx 16,400 for 3 wks rehab and 6 mths aftercare. so the 2000 euro that it would cost to spend an indefinate time in thamkrabok is value for money and is also a good alternative to traditional western treatments. As most of the people who come to TKB have already been trough the various centres in ireland TKB offers something a little different. as for the figures on the sucesse rate they are a little grey. so your point on this is valid. as for the religion comment nothing is forced on u out here. some people take it in some dont BUT IT IS NOT FORCED ON ANYONE. Given that most people who turn up here are mentally broken after years of abusing both body n mind WTF does it matter, if it works it works. and in the majority of cases it does. also your point on aftercare is also valid. there is a tragic lack of aftercare in ireland as a whole but hopefully this si something that is changeing as 2 patients returning shortly have aftercare in place so hopefully this is the start of something new availabe to people as it is badly needed.

What is on offer here is an alternative to the treatments in IRL. and a chance at a new start. however this might not work for everybody as we already know. as U said the real work starts at home which is very true.

nobody is claiming that the treatment here is better than anything else it is just an alternative and has worked for a lot of people across the world.

peace man
I

tommyhouse

Paulgar wrote: »

I wish Audrey, Gary, and the rest of them good luck with their organisation. I will do what I can to support them.

Anyway, it is Buddhist lent here in Thailand and I have been given five days off work. I am spending it in a nice resort with my wife and son; another wonderful gift of sobriety. I don't intend to spend much of it debating on internet forums; although I will always find time to defend a special place like Thamkrabok.

Hello Paul. Stay out of the sun

Might get to meet up some day. I am proactive in aftercare, and wish I could do more.

While I'm on the subject and anyone is welcome to intervene with their opinion here -
I have strong feelings about recovery and 'afterwards'.

Basically the decision to 'quit' - to make the effort to get to Tmk, or a treatment centre, comes about as a 'reality check' - a psychic change that comes about for whatever reason. Having endured a psychic change, I feel quite strongly that this 'change' often makes a person reassess their habits of a lifetime. If this change is strong, and we continue to do the right thing, aftercare is not neccessarily 6 months off site. Counselling, fellowship, friendship, supportive friends, and a host of phone numbers are all that alcoholics and addicts have needed for many years. I'm reluctant to criticise anyones methods - but the strongest we are is the first few pink cloud months of sobriety/cleantime.

Having a crutch of 'somewhere to hide out' is imo delaying the inevitable. Sooner or later, a man will have to face drink advertisements, pass the street corner, bump into suppliers, watch a tv movie - Harsh and hard, tough love... :-))

Strictly an unbiased opinion subject to dispute and debate. No live animals or plants were harmed during this post..

Anyway, I'm on the side of what works for one doesn't mean it works for all

An old saying I live by is
Just because...........
Doesn't mean..........

Take gentle care
Tommy

Godspeed and take care

Tommy

Paulgar

Tommy, this is purely talking about me here. I haven't needed any aftercare in my three years since leaving WTK. I am not saying that this is the same for everyone or even most people. I know that there are those who would voice concern over my lack of support, and they are entitled to their opinion, but this works for me.

I once belonged to a fellowship which I attended every day for two years; I still drank again. The desire to drink never left me and even though I wasn't drinking my life was still about alcohol. I still have the greatest respect for the meetings, but in the end it just wasn't how I wanted to do things this time. I have already devoted too much of my life to my addiction.

Something happened to me at WTK; I don't care what this something is called. I knew soon after leaving the temple that my battle with addiction was over. Maybe I'm fooling myself but that is how I do and have felt. It does work. Of course I will always be an addict, but that does not mean that I need to always think of myself that way.

WTK is a special place for me because of this. Maybe my escape from addiction would have occurred anyway, but I'm not sure about this. I was just so desperate when I arrived at the temple. I didn't really believe that it was going to work, and I believed that death was coming soon because of the state of my liver.

I don't claim that WTK will magically cure everyone. I don't believe that it is a Buddhist Lourdes. What I do know is that it does work for me and for others. I also believe that it won't be a bad decision for anybody to go there; at the very least they will have an adventure. When people badmouth a place like WTK they take away people's hope. Maybe some criticism is correct but who does it benefit?

When I was in the midst of my addiction I was a very cynical about all treatment options. Negative comments were my manna and gave me a reason not to get help. If I had read a few negative posts about the temple maybe that would have been enough to turn me off the temple. Maybe I'd be dead now.

tommyhouse

Thanks Paul, pretty much my own findings -
Allowing that there are of course folks that do need further serrvices - in that respect I (we) offer counselling, and other types of therapies to those that request them. Many courses we organise take into acount how hard it is for 'us' to ever feel good about ourselves again. We use Cognitive Therapy, Glasser and Reality to boost up self belief. In the trade they call it self-esteem, but I hate cliches.

Heh heh, I call my enemy the Beast - its always there waiting to bite me. So like I've said already, the how of getting there is the least important. Some measure it in length, some in quality, some just a day-at-a-time here in the now, this moment. Feck that, I have a whole life to live

Cheers
Take gentle care
Tommy

studiorat

"The next time I go looking for my heart's desire, I won't look any further than my own backyard. If it's not there, then I never really lost it to begin with." -Dorothy Gale. (Wizard of Oz)