Westside for confused bastards

colman1212

Thanks a million hanley. Thats exactly what I was looking for.
I'll change it so I'm using different assistance exercises on the ME and RE days. Also I'll start at higher reps on the ME days and work down as I move through cycles of it.

The reason I hadn't included the deadlift in there is I was going to switch it up between squats and deadlifts every 3 weeks. So I thought the idea was that you completely leave out deadlifts for 3 weeks and then completely leave out squats for 3 weeks?

The same with the bench, I thought you'd do bench for 3 weeks, then close grip or floor press for 3 weeks etc?

I'll probably kick this off next week and finish up with starting strength this week.

Brian?

colman1212 wrote: »

The reason I hadn't included the deadlift in there is I was going to switch it up between squats and deadlifts every 3 weeks. So I thought the idea was that you completely leave out deadlifts for 3 weeks and then completely leave out squats for 3 weeks?

My understanding (Hanley will correct me if I'm wrong) is that you still need to do deadlift assistance work even if you're not deadlifting for 3 weeks at a time.

Hanley

colman1212 wrote: »

Thanks a million hanley. Thats exactly what I was looking for.
I'll change it so I'm using different assistance exercises on the ME and RE days. Also I'll start at higher reps on the ME days and work down as I move through cycles of it.

The reason I hadn't included the deadlift in there is I was going to switch it up between squats and deadlifts every 3 weeks. So I thought the idea was that you completely leave out deadlifts for 3 weeks and then completely leave out squats for 3 weeks?

I'll probably kick this off next week and finish up with starting strength this week.

Maybe when you’re an elite powerlifter with a terrible level of GPP, so that any intense deadlifts will leave you f*cked for a couple of weeks… but you’re not!

This is another issue I have with WSBB (the other being how people see all the big US equipped lifters banging on about board pressing and think it’s the cure for all bench ailments when it’s probably gonna actually have no carryover for them).

The reason there’s minimal DL’n included is because when you’re pulling big weights it’s very hard to recover from. You’ll often see speed pulls included as a first exercise on the traditional DE lower day (ie your RE lower). Something like 50-60% 8x1-2 w/ 60 second break. But for most people it’s largely pointless as they can’t hold their ‘max weight’ form with 60% and still pull explosively. They end up just ripping the bar up as fast as possible and not pulling the correct way - total waste of time.

The easiest way to get better at any lift is to do it. What you’re proposing is effectively ignoring squats for half the year, and ignoring DLs for half the year. Makes no sense when you can train both, and do so quite effectively. A combination of rack pulls from various heights (knee level to bar almost on the floor) and speed pulls are a pretty solid way of bringing your DL up. Not saying you have to do both during every 3 week cycle, but you should be including something. Even SLDLs or the like.

And another thing… a lot of people will be limited in their DL by grip strength. While Louie might argue that squatting, GMs, core etc etc will help to increase your DL too, if you can’t hold onto the bar it doesn’t matter.

The same with the bench, I thought you'd do bench for 3 weeks, then close grip or floor press for 3 weeks etc?

Ish… Again with traditional WSBB you’re speed benching 1x per week on the DE days, so you are getting a lot of quality bench volume in. Ya gotta remember that most of the guys who have success with it tend to be very technically proficient too, so not benching for a few weeks won’t screw up their bench groove.

sharky86

Hanley, when you opening up your own gym or writing a book or something eh?

Hanley

sharky86 wrote: »

Hanley, when you opening up your own gym or writing a book or something eh?

Lolz I've actually got all my PT stuff sorted, have been working on a blog and registered jameshanley.ie a few weeks ago

King of Kings

I have tried version 1 a few times - the 3 day one and I really like it.

However wondering do people mix the exercises (where given a choice within a grouping) about or stick to the same ones?

itsallaboutheL

Sell out.

Hanley

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Sell out.

Please. As if you can talk.

Mellor

Bump for one of the best threads on the forum.

I was thinking about giving this a shot the lst time it was bumped up.
Now's a good time as I'm nearly at the end of my cardio/running+resistance training phase, last race is next week.
So i'm like 80% sure i'll be doing this

I've only ever read Kev's OP regarding WW4SB, so i downloaded the PDF to have a read of the ful thing.
Low and behold, i'm more confused now.

kevpants wrote: »

ME = Max effort. You do one ME day a week for both your upper and lower body. The most important thing about ME day is that you get at least 3 or 4 lifts in at about 90% or above of your 1 rep max. This is why it is called Max Effort.
MYTH ALERT: These 1 rep max attempts are not a test, of your strength. They are a strength building exercise. So many people believe it is just to test your strength, why the hell would you do that every week?

The reason i liked the version in Kevs OP was that is has singles once a week for both upper and lower. I glanced the at the WW4SB pdf and it says to work up to a 3-5 rep PR
I even had to go back to it and check I didn't misread.
I don't really care, and i'm doing it as per the OP. I'm mostly here for the bump

Brian?

Mellor wrote: »

Bump for one of the best threads on the forum.

I was thinking about giving this a shot the lst time it was bumped up.
Now's a good time as I'm nearly at the end of my cardio/running+resistance training phase, last race is next week.
So i'm like 80% sure i'll be doing this

Do it. I have been giving it a go for about 6 weeks now and really like it. Although I am fairly sure the RE lower day is going to kill me.

I've only ever read Kev's OP regarding WW4SB, so i downloaded the PDF to have a read of the ful thing.
Low and behold, i'm more confused now.

Well that's what you get for doubting Mr. Pants.

The reason i liked the version in Kevs OP was that is has singles once a week for both upper and lower. I glanced the at the WW4SB pdf and it says to work up to a 3-5 rep PR
I even had to go back to it and check I didn't misread.
I don't really care, and i'm doing it as per the OP. I'm mostly here for the bump

I've been doing the singles twice a week, don't see any reason not to. I never downloaded this "pdf" you talk of. I have placed my faith in Kevpants as my new messiah.

Hanley

Mellor wrote: »

The reason i liked the version in Kevs OP was that is has singles once a week for both upper and lower. I glanced the at the WW4SB pdf and it says to work up to a 3-5 rep PR
I even had to go back to it and check I didn't misread.
I don't really care, and i'm doing it as per the OP. I'm mostly here for the bump

What is it that's confusing you? The fact Kev has singles and Joe doesn't? Or the reasoning behind it?

kevpants

A 3-5 rep PR is not ME. There's plenty of 3-5 rep programs you can follow but for me if you're going to do Westside you should be using a weight that's either a small PR or close to your max on your ME day.

The simplest way to think about it is to make sure you so 3 or 4 lifts on ME day that you really strain to get. That's different to repping a weight 5 times where the first rep was a piece of cake and you only really strain on the last one.

Not saying repping is wrong but it's not what ME is supposed to be about.

Hanley

kevpants wrote: »

A 3-5 rep PR is not ME. There's plenty of 3-5 rep programs you can follow but for me if you're going to do Westside you should be using a weight that's either a small PR or close to your max on your ME day.

The simplest way to think about it is to make sure you so 3 or 4 lifts on ME day that you really strain to get. That's different to repping a weight 5 times where the first rep was a piece of cake and you only really strain on the last one.

Not saying repping is wrong but it's not what ME is supposed to be about.

Weren't 3rms included as an option in original westside programming tho?

kevpants

Hanley wrote: »

Weren't 3rms included as an option in original westside programming tho?

You could argue that you could get 3 reps with 90%ish and it would still be ME I suppose. As a beginner though I found adding slivers of weight to a heavy single and following ot up with a few slightly less heavy singles or doubles was plenty.

There's a danger that a beginner just won't have it heavy enough if they're thinking about getting 3 or more reps.

Mellor

Hanley wrote: »

What is it that's confusing you? The fact Kev has singles and Joe doesn't? Or the reasoning behind it?

More so the fact that the "theory" included in ww4sb is basically that your two heavy days a MAX effort. Lift as heavy as you can.
Then in the sample program, they toss in the usual 5 rep sets

I'm going to do it with singles, prob starting in a week or two. Hopefully break some benchmarks.

d'Oracle

Mellor wrote: »

WW4SB,

Sorry Dude, can't help it.


WestWood for Skinny Bastards?

Mellor

lol, I did it twice too

In one of those coincidences, i finally got around to reading "The Vault", Dave Tate's e-book. Covers everything, and at first glance looks pretty good.
There is a section that describes different training methods, including Maximum Effort days. What he says and the suggested programming is pretty much the exact same as the OP. Singles, 3 weeks, squats train deadlifts etc. I think he stole it

Mellor

lol, I did it twice too

In one of those coincidences, i finally got around to reading "The Vault", Dave Tate's e-book. Covers everything, and at first glance looks pretty good.
There is a section that describes different training methods, including Maximum Effort days. What he says and the suggested programming is pretty much the exact same as the OP. Singles, 3 weeks, squats train deadlifts etc. I think he stole it

Blindside87

This looks similar to Layne Nortons Power/Hypertrophy split which I have been doing for the last while.

Works really well.

1 Day Max Upper
1 day max lower
1 Day Hypertrophy upper
1 day hypertropy lower.

The only problem I have is on the lower days. I can't do heavy squat and Deadlift in one day so I do one on each day followed by 3 sets of hypertrophy on the same muscle.

kevpants

Blindside87 wrote: »

The only problem I have is on the lower days. I can't do heavy squat and Deadlift in one day so I do one on each day followed by 3 sets of hypertrophy on the same muscle.

Don't be afraid to try what I mentioned, 3 weeks heavy squat then 3 weeks heavy deadlift. After the 3 weeks of doing the other lower lift I found the one I wasn't training had actually improved when I went back to it. Power loves rest.

RidleyRider

Just thought I'd bump this cause it makes for some great reading. Fair play kevpants.

Hanley

Yeah but Kev wrote it when he had a low 200kg squat so it doesn't really count.

ThunbergsAreGo

Apologies for the bump but good thread,

What ab work did people find worked for them?

Hanley

This is well overdue another bump.

Brian?

Hanley wrote: »

This is well overdue another bump.

Yes it is.

Tell Kev pants he's missed.

Hanley

Brian? wrote: »

Yes it is.

Tell Kev pants he's missed.

He's back in Dublin in August. We'll have a boards.ie party in RevFit for him.

Brian?

I am bumping this thread again. It'd deadly.

COH

Just sticky it already

Brian?

COH wrote: »

Just sticky it already

But it's in the "interesting threads" sticky.I can't remember why, but each forum is only supposed to have a couple of stickies.

idnkph

Starting this tomorrow. ME upper looks like this.
Bench press (same as in kevs first post) warm up and 5 over 90%.
Close grip incline BP. 3 x 8
Lying tricep extensions.
Cable pulldown
Reverse fly
Upright row.
All assistance is 3x8 .

DE upper
BP 8 x 3 55%
DB BP 3x8 .
Seated row.
DB shoulder press.
Preacher curls.

ME lower
Squat warm up and 5 x 1 90% & over
Bent knee good mornings. 3x8
Reverse hyper. 3x8
Abs work.

DE lower.
Squats 10x 3 @ 60%
Stiff legged deads 5x5
Ab work.

Can anyone suggest any changes I need?

Brian?

idnkph wrote: »

Starting this tomorrow. ME upper looks like this.
Bench press (same as in kevs first post) warm up and 5 over 90%.
Close grip incline BP. 3 x 8
Lying tricep extensions.
Cable pulldown
Reverse fly
Upright row.
All assistance is 3x8 .

DE upper
BP 8 x 3 55%
DB BP 3x8 .
Seated row.
DB shoulder press.
Preacher curls.

ME lower
Squat warm up and 5 x 1 90% & over
Bent knee good mornings. 3x8
Reverse hyper. 3x8
Abs work.

DE lower.
Squats 10x 3 @ 60%
Stiff legged deads 5x5
Ab work.

Can anyone suggest any changes I need?

On your ME upper day your triceps will be pretty fried by the benching, in my experience. I'd drop the tricep isolation. Upright rows are tough on the shoulders, swap them out for DB overhead press.

Again with the ME lower day, lower back will be tired from squats so I'm not sure how great an idea good mornings ares.

The max effort days are all about the big lift. Don't try to throw the kitchen sink at it.

Brian?

I haven't really trained the big lifts properly in about 5 years, until last night.

My plan is to do 6-8 weeks on press and deadlift. My hip and shoulder mobility needs work so I'll be avoiding squats and bench for a while.

Last night I did a ME military press day:

Military press, 1x10 warmup set, then a 1x3 warmup set, then singles up to failure as I needed to test my 1rm. It was a pretty pathetic 1rm and shall remain secret lol.

Pull-ups 3x8
Seated rows 3x8
Attempted some incline DB benches but the front delts wanted none of it.
Barbell curls and tricep push downs supersetted 3x12. Because I'm vain and like having nice arms, this is purely optional IMO.

Next session is DE deadlifts but has to wait until tomorrow. Will post it up once it's done.

idnkph

Brian? wrote:

On your ME upper day your triceps will be pretty fried by the benching, in my experience. I'd drop the tricep isolation. Upright rows are tough on the shoulders, swap them out for DB overhead press.

Brian? wrote:

Again with the ME lower day, lower back will be tired from squats so I'm not sure how great an idea good mornings ares.

Brian? wrote:

The max effort days are all about the big lift. Don't try to throw the kitchen sink at it.

Took your advice and glad I did. Tri's are burning hard. Shoulders are feeling it too but they are my weak link... right shoulder is clicking alot. Had rotator cuff problem before and thought it was solved but it's holding me back. Was happy enough with my 1RM . Personal record already set and with a dodgy shoulder haha. Thanks for the tips.
Just on the assistance stuff... should I be going as heavy as I can with them on ME day? Or is it just ME for the main lifts?

Brian?

idnkph wrote: »

Took your advice and glad I did. Tri's are burning hard. Shoulders are feeling it too but they are my weak link... right shoulder is clicking alot. Had rotator cuff problem before and thought it was solved but it's holding me back. Was happy enough with my 1RM . Personal record already set and with a dodgy shoulder haha. Thanks for the tips.
Just on the assistance stuff... should I be going as heavy as I can with them on ME day? Or is it just ME for the main lifts?

Good stuff. Go as heavy as you can, keeping the reps 8 or higher.

Brian?

ME deadlift day today (needed to test my deadlift 1rm).

Warmed up with shoulder and hip mobility work.

Deadlift:
Empty bar x10 warm up
Then a light triple, 60kg x3.
Then worked up to failure in singles. Adding 10kg each set until the struggle set in and then went in increments of 5kg.

All 3x8:
Bulgarian split squats
Hamstring curls
Single leg extensions
Planks.

Brian?

idnkph wrote: »

Took your advice and glad I did. Tri's are burning hard. Shoulders are feeling it too but they are my weak link... right shoulder is clicking alot. Had rotator cuff problem before and thought it was solved but it's holding me back. Was happy enough with my 1RM . Personal record already set and with a dodgy shoulder haha. Thanks for the tips.
Just on the assistance stuff... should I be going as heavy as I can with them on ME day? Or is it just ME for the main lifts?

Just re read this post. Benching and shoulder problems are not a good mix.

Get t Physio at the slightest sign of trouble. But make sure to do plenty of should mobility stuff in your warm up and keep a ratio of 2:1 pull:push on your assistance work.

Alf Veedersane

Brian? wrote: »

But make sure to do plenty of should mobility stuff in your warm up and keep a ratio of 2:1 pull:push on your assistance work.

This. Very little pull work in the workout listed, including for the changes suggested.

Brian?

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

This. Very little pull work in the workout listed, including for the changes suggested.

Mmm hmm. You'll notice on my ME press day, listed earlier, there was very little pushing assistance work.

I'm still working the finer points out but if I was do bench as my big upper body lift, my assistance work would probably be.

1 of Pull 1: barbell rows, cable rows, db rows
1 of Pull 2: chins, pull ups, lat pull downs
Shrugs
A tricep exercise and a bicep exercise.

My warmup would be:

Shoulder mobility work: face pulls+band shoulder dislocates+ foam rolling t spine+ pec stretch