No guilt after termination - am I alone?

havana

See this is what i don't get. How can someone tell another their decision is wrong? It might be wrong for you that does not make it wrong for others. This is where we differ. I live my life with the understanding that others have the right to live theirs as they see fit. I will advise if asked i will support when needed and if necessary i will be there if someone feels they made wrong choices for them. But i will not judge or put my own beliefs across strongly, nor will i expect anyone to agree with how feel on everything.

havana

Jakkass wrote: »

infact I don't expect that you will ever adopt my understanding about abortion.

The rhethoric you continue with is typical of pro-choice discourse. I'm only dealing with my own life and that's that. If only that were the case though. As I say you're free to generate your own understanding of this, as am I.

No i will never adopt your thinking on it but that does not mean i do not understand it or respect it.

i live my life with others in mind- both professionally and personally. I do not in thru life believing the only one who matters is me or disregarding the impact me or my decisions can have on others. But i also believe in my right to live my life as i see fit where it does not adversely affect others. And their our beliefs differ. I do not belive my decision affected another. Because i have a different undertanding and belief from you on what constitutes a human being.

philologos

havana wrote: »

See this is what i don't get. How can someone tell another their decision is wrong? It might be wrong for you that does not make it wrong for others. This is where we differ. I live my life with the understanding that others have the right to live theirs as they see fit. I will advise if asked i will support when needed and if necessary i will be there if someone feels they made wrong choices for them. But i will not judge or put my own beliefs across strongly, nor will i expect anyone to agree with how feel on everything.

Yes, you're correct this is where we differ fundementally. You subscribe to ethics, or what is deemed appropriate to do, what suits you in a particular situation. I subscribe to absolute morality i.e that rights and wrongs are equally binding and do not come from human invention or a human source. Therefore a times it will seem that we are on a collision course. I do not intend to offend you but I think that it's appropriate that we have a bit of balance on the thread.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but I think pro-life opinions are appropriate on this thread. I think that abortion is wrong, people make mistakes the whole time though, and I don't think that you're somehow a monster for having done it. No doubt it was a difficult position for both you and the OP to have dealt with and I can understand that.

Edit: I never said that you live your life selfishly, and I have no reason to believe that or to infer it. I actually believe that all people can live positive lives no matter what they have done in the past. I'd include serious crime in this definition.

You say that you live your life freely where it doesn't adversely affect others. However I'd argue that abortion is one of those cases where it does effect others, the unborn who get no defence in this. There are two sets of rights to be considered, your rights, and the rights of the unborn. A reasonable compromise needs to be made between them in my view of it anyway, that for me would be adoption. If it was just one set of rights, and if it truly didn't affect others I'd say fair play on the choice. I can't do that on this issue though.

Zulu

havana wrote: »

You can't dictate how someone feels! It sounds to me that you believe everyone who makes this decision has made a mistake. Just cos you wish it so does not make it so. I 'see clearly what i have done'- i made a decision based on MY life, MY circumstances, MY beliefs, MY morals. You should live your OWN life based on yours and let others do the same.

Ehat then is this thread really about?
You made a decision.
You don't feel guilty.
You don't want a discussion on the rights and wrongs of abortion.
You do want peoples opinion on wheither or not it's ok not to feel guilty.

The simple fact is this: if a person thinks abortion is wrong, they'd be inclined to believe that you should feel guilty. If a person thinks abortion is ok, they'll be inclined to believe that you shouldn't feel guilty.

If you don't feel guilt, good for you, but what did you REALLY want from this thread?

havana wrote: »

See this is what i don't get. How can someone tell another their decision is wrong?

Like rape, thieft, assault, murder, someone who believes it's wrong can express that opinion. They can tell another their decision to rape, rob, attack was wrong.

It might be wrong for you that does not make it wrong for others.

Clearly, but thats not the way society works. Becuase you think it's ok to steal, doesn't make it so. Because I think it's not ok to steal, doesn't make it so either. Soceity determines it's rule by what the majority think.

I live my life with the understanding that others have the right to live theirs as they see fit.

So does everyone else here. The sticking point is that some people believe there is another person involved.

But i will not judge or put my own beliefs across strongly, nor will i expect anyone to agree with how feel on everything.

Sure you will. Everyone does.

Ickle Magoo

Jakkass wrote: »

A reasonable compromise needs to be made between them in my view of it anyway, that for me would be adoption. If it was just one set of rights, and if it truly didn't affect others I'd say fair play on the choice. I can't do that on this issue though.

Do you have any idea how many issues adopted people can have stemming from their adoption? Most adoptees go on to live with the consequences of being adopted all their lives, many searching out their biological family later in life.

I'm adopted, I know lots of adopted people. I know some in jail, some are drug addicts, some suffer depression and alcoholism - some spent most of their lives in and out of care. There seems to be some rosy picture of loving parents queueing up to adopt these unwanted children and happily ever afters which is a bit of a fallacy/fantasy.

While I would obviously rather have been adopted than aborted, please don't think that adoption is a guilt-free, all ties-cut way of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy and as such, it's not necessarily an alternative to abortion at all, for some people.

Ickle Magoo

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

it's not necessarily an alternative to abortion at all, for some people.

Aye - an abortion is an alternative to unwanted pregnancy - an adoption is an alternative to bringing a child up. Different arenas.

havana

Zulu wrote: »

Ehat then is this thread really about?

If you don't feel guilt, good for you, but what did you REALLY want from this thread?
Becuase you think it's ok to steal, doesn't make it so.

Err i didn't start this thread. And the thread was about someone feelings afterwards. I hate that i got drawn into this debate when the op clearly stated she did not want it going in this direction.

not sure where you get the idea i think its ok to steal. There are lots of things i don't think are ok, but abortion is not one of them. Stealing, murder rape are all all not ok because there is a tangible victim. We differ on whether or not we believe there is a tangible victim in this situation. While i understand and respect your beliefs on this they are not ones i can subscribe to. All i ask is the same respect for mine

philologos

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Do you have any idea how many issues adopted people can have stemming from their adoption? Most adoptees go on to live with the consequences of being adopted all their lives, many searching out their biological family later in life.

Adoption vs death? I know which one I would prefer. There are also means one can get in touch with their biological parents in a lot of cases?

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I'm adopted, I know lots of adopted people. I know some in jail, some are drug addicts, some suffer depression and alcoholism - some spent most of their lives in and out of care. There seems to be some rosy picture of loving parents queueing up to adopt these unwanted children and happily ever afters which is a bit of a fallacy/fantasy.

I bet you I can find as many adopted people who live happy and fulfilled lives. Some does not translate to all.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

While I would obviously rather have been adopted than aborted, please don't think that adoption is a guilt-free, all ties-cut way of dealing with an unwanted pregnancy and as such, it's not necessarily an alternative to abortion at all, for some people.

Yes, but is adoption wrong? I certainly wouldn't think so anyway if you can't sustain a child. I do however think that death is the wrong conclusion as death means that no life can be lived at all.

havana: Do you not think that a foetus is a pretty tangible human life?

Zulu

havana wrote: »

4Err i didn't start this thread.

Apologies havana, indeed you didn't. However, I wonder just what it is that OP wanted to achieve form this thread.

I hate that i got drawn into this debate when the op clearly stated she did not want it going in this direction.

Well we can always choose not to reply.

not sure where you get the idea i think its ok to steal.

Sorry, you misunderstand me. It was an example, I wasn't implying you have stickyfingers.

havana

Zulu wrote: »

Apologies havana, indeed you didn't. However, I wonder just what it is that OP wanted to achieve form this thread.

Maybe just simply were there others in a similiar situation.
[\QUOTE]Well we can always choose not to reply. [\QUOTE]
I know. Just too easy to get drawn in:-)

Ickle Magoo

Jakkass wrote: »

Adoption vs death? I know which one I would prefer.

Of course, me too - I wasn't suggesting that abortion is the preferred option for the child, it's just worth pointing out that adoption isn't always the happy alternative that we often are led to believe in these debates and can have enormous, life changing ramifications for those involved.

Jakkass wrote: »

There are also means one can get in touch with their biological parents in a lot of cases?

Exactly, there are people who have abortions because they don't want to have children or be pregnant. Giving a child up for adoption after nine months of pregnancy doesn't exactly resolve those issues.

Jakkass wrote: »

I bet you I can find as many adopted people who live happy and fulfilled lives. Some does not translate to all.

I bet you could, I bet you few of them would say adoption hasn't affected them to a varying degree.

TBH, I just get a bit tired of the "but you could always adopt" line being trotted out on the issue of abortion, like the grand cure-all. Obviously adoption is not always traumatic or has a significant negative impact on the adoptee - but it's no guarantee of quality of life, either.

Jakkass wrote: »

Yes, but is adoption wrong? I certainly wouldn't think so anyway if you can't sustain a child.

How could adoption be wrong? I think it's a wonderful thing to want to adopt a child that has no home or parents, as such - but none of that negates the issues that inherently come with such an event.

I don't think that all pregnancies that would have been aborted should be made to go to term, the children adopted off & shoe-horned back into society regardless of circumstance and with no thought to the consequences - it just doesn't sit well with me.

Jakkass wrote: »

I do however think that death is the wrong conclusion as death means that no life can be lived at all.

Of course you do. You believe in life at all costs. Whatever the emotional or physical cost to the mother/father or child, the only thing that matters is that the child survives. I don't think that's necessarily the best way to look at it. :cool:

philologos

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Of course, me too - I wasn't suggesting that abortion is the preferred option for the child, it's just worth pointing out that it isn't always the happy alternative that we often are led to believe and can have enormous, life changing ramifications for those involved.

It's certainly the better of the two.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Exactly, there are people who have abortions because they don't want to have children or be pregnant. Giving a child up for adoption after nine months of pregnancy doesn't exactly resolve those issues.

Hence why I called it a compromise.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I bet you could, I bet you few of them would say adoption hasn't affected them to a varying degree.

I'm straining to figure out if you mean that just because adoption hasn't affected them to a varying degree means that abortion is a better alternative. I have no doubt that adoption has it's bad sides, however I believe living life is better than condemnation to death.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

TBH, I just get a bit tired of the "but you could always adopt" line being trotted out on the issue of abortion, like the grand cure-all. Obviously adoption is not always traumatic or has a significant negative impact on the adoptee - but it's no guarantee of quality of life, either.

You may be tired of it, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have credence. Adoption may have negative impacts occasionally, abortion has negative effects always on the other concerned.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

How could adoption be wrong? I think it's a wonderful thing to want to adopt a child that has no home or parents, as such - but none of that negates the issues that inherently come with such an event.

Yes, but adoption > abortion. Surely we should be encouraging the best alternative for both involved.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't think that all pregnancies that would have been aborted should be made to go to term, the children adopted off & shoe-horned back into society regardless of circumstance and with no thought to the consequences - it just doesn't sit well with me.

It gives the children a chance of life, instead of having decisions of life and death being made for them. Adoption gives children opportunities in situations when they probably would have had none. In the vast majority of cases it's a positive thing, you would concede that much would you? I really do not think the consequences of adoption are as bad as the consequences of abortion, infact in many cases adoption can be positive.

What doesn't sit well with me is that the global community encourages 50,000,000 developing human lives per year (2006 figures) to be denied the right to life.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Of course you do. You believe in life at all costs. Whatever the emotional or physical cost to the mother/father or child, the only thing that matters is that the child survives. I don't think that's necessarily the best way to look at it. :cool:

I believe that every person should have the same opportunities that I have so yes I do believe that the unborn should be treated equally to me. I think that's only fair. At least if there are emotional, or physical costs we have services to deal with these issues and we have people who care to help. I think this is definitely the most reasonable way of looking at it.

Ickle Magoo

Jakkass wrote: »

It's certainly the better of the two.

If your thoughts are limited to the welfare of the foetus, then it's obviously the better choice.

Jakkass wrote: »

Hence why I called it a compromise.

It's hardly a compromise if you have to go ahead with a pregnancy you don't want and then have a child you don't want who has every right to contact you in the future and demand a relationship you don't want. It's only a compromise for you compared with the parents raising the child, it's not a compromise between being pregnant or not.

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm straining to figure out if you mean that just because adoption hasn't affected them to a varying degree means that abortion is a better alternative. I have no doubt that adoption has it's bad sides, however I believe living life is better than condemnation to death.

You say that coming from the privileged position of never having experienced adoption, I take it? When you say that life is better than condemning to death then it sounds perfectly logical. That takes no account of quality of life for many of the kids already falling through the care system.

Jakkass wrote: »

You may be tired of it, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have credence. Adoption may have negative impacts occasionally, abortion has negative effects always on the other concerned.

It's much more than occasionally - that's exactly the sugar coating I abhor. Read any paper on adoption and you will see the consequences it often has and the problems it causes.

Jakkass wrote: »

Yes, but adoption > abortion. Surely we should be encouraging the best alternative for both involved.

You don't know what's the best for all parties, without taking into consideration the circumstances of the parents or acknowledging the affect that adoption or foster care could have on the child.

Jakkass wrote: »

It gives the children a chance of life, instead of having decisions of life and death being made for them. Adoption gives children opportunities in situations when they probably would have had none. In the vast majority of cases it's a positive thing, you would concede that much would you? I really do not think the consequences of adoption are as bad as the consequences of abortion, infact in many cases adoption can be positive.

Of course, children that are not wanted by their parents have the opportunity to go on and lead relatively "normal lives", if they are lucky and get new parents and those parents are caring and loving. They also have the opportunity of being bounced around social care, foster homes and suffering all manner of emotional and mental hardship. That's not to say that there aren't many couples willing or wanting to adopt - or that make a good go of it but that doesn't help the other millions of kids waiting for a home already today and many of them will fall through the system.

Jakkass wrote: »

What doesn't sit well with me is that the global community encourages 50,000,000 developing human lives per year (2006 figures) to be denied the right to life.

And if there are currently millions of kids around the world hoping a family will adopt them - who is going to take care of the 50,000,000 others you propose to have in existence? More care homes? More falling through the system? More issues?

Jakkass wrote: »

I believe that every person should have the same opportunities that I have so yes I do believe that the unborn should be treated equally to me. I think that's only fair. At least if there are emotional, or physical costs we have services to deal with these issues and we have people who care to help. I think this is definitely the most reasonable way of looking at it.

I don't think reasonable is the word I'd use, not if you think we have the services to deal with the impact of having no parents or family for unwanted children at the moment and that a life in and out of foster care knowing no-one wants you is being treated equally to you? Or that a life-time in and out of care and foster homes without family love or parental guidance is affording very much of an opportunity at all.

I guess that was my main point, it's such a grey issue for me anyway and it's certainly not so black and white as you make out. I don't think more children's homes and better social workers are the answer if you intend on offering all those children any quality of life, much as I am no fan of abortion.

therapy

This is EXACTLY the type of thread I DIDN'T want.

You only ever hear about the women who have breakdowns or suffer with dreadful guilt after a termination - always. You don't hear about women like me. I had a termination to save mine, and my sons life. At that time, all three of us would not have survived. I have hanging onto life on a string as it was - I was not coping with the child I had, I could not have coped with another one.

And I knew then, and I know now that it was the right decision for me at the time.

Thank you to all those who have replied to my orig post and answered my orig question - and to those who have turned it into a pro-life or anti-abortion thread..well...dunno what to say to you lot, but you know who you are.

philologos

What was the point of this thread then? Just for everyone to congratulate the choice you made to have an abortion? People are going to differ in opinion, it's part of a normal and a healthy discussion

therapy

Just for everyone to congratulate the choice you made to have an abortion?

Yes that's exactly what I'd hoped for.

Appropriate username, I must say.

Zulu

therapy wrote: »

Yes that's exactly what I'd hoped for.

Well, then, what the hell is the thread doing in Humanities?
Perhaps the ladies lounge would have been a more suitable place for it?
Or perhaps it's an insecurity thing? Maybe personal issues?

Either way, this is the worng place for it.

Appropriate username, I must say.

No need for the petty, childish, personal digs. It's pathetic.

philologos

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

If your thoughts are limited to the welfare of the foetus, then it's obviously the better choice.

It's about survival and equality. The rights of the unborn should be defended while allowing maximum freedom of the mother to adoptive services.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It's hardly a compromise if you have to go ahead with a pregnancy you don't want and then have a child you don't want who has every right to contact you in the future and demand a relationship you don't want. It's only a compromise for you compared with the parents raising the child, it's not a compromise between being pregnant or not.

Mother: Does not want child, doesn't want to go through pregnancy
Child: Has the right to survive.
Compromise: Mother does not have to keep child, child survives.

I'd call the compromise a via media in this case.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

You say that coming from the privileged position of never having experienced adoption, I take it? When you say that life is better than condemning to death then it sounds perfectly logical. That takes no account of quality of life for many of the kids already falling through the care system.

No I wasn't adopted. However, I do think that adoption is better than death. As for quality of life, this is mere speculation. Nobody can guarantee the quality of life, and the first solution shouldn't be to kill because we don't know. I make my view based on the assumption that human beings can and do have fulfilling lives even when adopted, and there is no reason why this couldn't be the case for the current life that we are dealing with.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

It's much more than occasionally - that's exactly the sugar coating I abhor. Read any paper on adoption and you will see the consequences it often has and the problems it causes.

Feel free to cite some.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

You don't know what's the best for all parties, without taking into consideration the circumstances of the parents or acknowledging the affect that adoption or foster care could have on the child.

Death certainly isn't best for the child and it certainly shouldn't be used as a result of fears of the what if.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

And if there are currently millions of kids around the world hoping a family will adopt them - who is going to take care of the 50,000,000 others you propose to have in existence? More care homes? More falling through the system? More issues?

So you see this as an issue like a dog being put to sleep? I don't propose to have 50,000,000 more in existence, I would prefer if people aren't prepared to have a child that they should be more careful about the decisions they make in that respect.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I don't think reasonable is the word I'd use, not if you think we have the services to deal with the impact of having no parents or family for unwanted children at the moment and that a life in and out of foster care knowing no-one wants you is being treated equally to you? Or that a life-time in and out of care and foster homes without family love or parental guidance is affording very much of an opportunity at all.

In the respect of life, I think that we should have equality in the right to be alive. The pro-choice argument doesn't think that there is any such equality. I don't see why these human lives should not be born and have the opportunity live among us as I have been born and had the opportunity to life.

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

I guess that was my main point, it's such a grey issue for me anyway and it's certainly not so black and white as you make out. I don't think more children's homes and better social workers are the answer if you intend on offering all those children any quality of life, much as I am no fan of abortion.

That's fair enough. I don't agree with your opinion, but I think that it is more reasonable than other views on the subject.

therapy

so after 69 posts, someone says the thread doesn't belong in humanities??

You might see that I suggested to the mods that it was moved to PI at the start, but it wasn't so I assumed that it was in the right place.

Zulu, I was being sarcastic saying that I was looking for congratulations.

And my reply wasn't pathetic...what's pathetic is that this thread has become EXACTLY what I originally asked it didn't and has gone completely off-topic.

Zulu

therapy wrote: »

so after 69 posts, someone says the thread doesn't belong in humanities??

Well I don't like to "back-seat moderate" and I'm no mod, so I can't ruddy well move it. Besides, your purpose for this thread still is vague: if it isn't congratulations you want - what do you want from this thread?
Someone to tell you it's normal that people don't feel guilty for decisions they made, which they believe are the right decisions, and are happy with the out come of that decision?
Why do you need someone to tell you that?

Zulu, I was being sarcastic saying that I was looking for congratulations.

Ok, well what the point then?

And my reply wasn't pathetic...what's pathetic is that this thread has become EXACTLY what I originally asked it didn't and has gone completely off-topic.

No. Whats pathetic is personally insulting someone solely because their opinion differs to yours.
This is humanities, the point of this forum is to engage in open discussion. If you can't welcome that, then perhaps you should rethink posting. Jackass is entitled to express his opinion, and explain the same without fear of being insulted or ridiculed.

...whatever unfortunate user name he picked

therapy

ONCE AGAIN I will state what I came here for.

There are many, many media reports on women who have had terminations and had nervous breakdowns years later, or suffered with depression as a result of the termination, or have ended up on medication for the rest of their lives because of a termination.

I have not discussed my feelings about my termination with anyone other than a counselor, at the time of the termination.

Two years on.

I have not had a nervous breakdown, I have not suffered with depression and I have not ended up on medication. In my 'real' life, I have been unable to turn to a friend and say 'Hey, How normal is it for me to feel that I made the right decision and have moved on with my life when the majority of women suffer as above' because none of my friends know I've had a termination.

So I came on the boards to put it out there. And it would appear, I am quite normal afterall.

Whatever normal is of course.

therapy

And while I have you zulu, could you explain to me the difference between what you can discuss on humanaties and what you can discuss on personal issues?

Is there a definition of what can or can't be posted on each board? Like I said, I asked the mod to move it at the start, but it was never moved so I assumed I was in the right place thanks.

Zulu

therapy wrote: »

ONCE AGAIN I will state what I came here for.

There are many, many media reports on women who have had terminations and had nervous breakdowns years later, or suffered with depression as a result of the termination, or have ended up on medication for the rest of their lives because of a termination...

Fair enough, but surely your understand that the media reports bad news? "Woman makes decision she feels is right, and is happy with the consequences" doesn't make much of a headline!

Of course it's normal to be happy with the right decision for you. I'd have thought that was fairly obvious, however I totally accept that this is something you've kept secret from your friends.

Can I ask you why it is that you couldn't tell any of your friends? Surely at least one of them would share your opinion on abortion?

therapy wrote: »

And while I have you zulu, could you explain to me the difference between what you can discuss on humanaties and what you can discuss on personal issues?

I always understood humanities to be the place where people discuss/debate the issue, whereas personal issues deals with a persons involvement with the issue.

Humanities charter: "Now, Humanities was created for the purpose of having rational, thoughtful, calm debate about issues. It was created as an alternative to After Hours. A place for intellectual discourse."

Personal issues charter: "This forum is for Personal Issues of all sorts, it is *not* a medical forum and see the links bit for links to medical stuff online, but feel free to post up problems as people may have personal experience, but don't expect miracle cures.
Only post on this forum if you have an actual problem, the more detail you give, the more accurate the advice will be."

No problem.

Sam Vimes

therapy wrote: »

And my reply wasn't pathetic...what's pathetic is that this thread has become EXACTLY what I originally asked it didn't and has gone completely off-topic.

In fairness, the thread was inevitably going to do that way. You posted about a very contentious issue on a public forum so you can't expect only people who agree with you to post

therapy

Perhaps I should have put it on PI so, as it's something I'm personally involved in sotospeak. Anyway...

I don't really know the answer to your question about why I haven't told my friends. I didn't tell them at the time because I was so angry at myself at getting pregnant in the first place, particularly getting pregnant by my ex.

So I didn't tell them then..perhaps because most of them didn't like my ex anyhow and perhaps because I didn't want it to become a bigger issue than it actually was. And time has moved on and there's never an appropriate time to say, out of the blue, hey, I've had a termination. I guess that's why.

It's not so much mine or their opinion on abortion that has affected my decision not to tell them. It's more I don't feel that they need to know and I guess there's the fear that they may judge me in some way.

'Of course it's normal to be happy with the right decision for you. I'd have thought that was fairly obvious'

Well, obviously, it's not fairly obvious to me. I read a recent article about a woman who'd had a termination 20 years ago and she woke up one day and had a breakdown. Now while I don't believe that she had the break-down BECAUSE of the termination, she and her counsellor had directly related it to that event 20 years previous. I thought it was tabloid thrash to be honest, but I just wanted to see if there were other women out there like me.

therapy

'You posted about a very contentious issue on a public forum so you can't expect only people who agree with you to post'


Agree with me on what exactly?

This was not a post ABOUT abortion.

This was me asking if there are other women out there who know it was the right decision for them at the time and who don't feel guilty about it.

I didn't expect anyone to agree with me on anything. I was asking a question.

philologos

There is really no point in judging. You cannot turn back the clock, what has been done has been done. As I say, no doubt it was a horrible decision to make. I just cannot recognise this as the "right decision". I apologise if I have offended you, that wasn't my intention.

therapy

And I'm not asking you recognise that it was a 'right decision'. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion and I respect it.

So whilst I wouldn't have been campaigning against abortion in the past, I can obviously see why people do and I respect their opinions.

It was the most difficult decision I have ever had to make in my whole life. But it was the right one for me.

Zulu

therapy wrote: »

So I didn't tell them then..perhaps because most of them didn't like my ex anyhow and perhaps because I didn't want it to become a bigger issue than it actually was. And time has moved on and there's never an appropriate time to say, out of the blue, hey, I've had a termination. I guess that's why.

Thats a fair enough answer. It seems a shame though that you feel you couldn't just bring it up - the reason I'm saying this is because, if it's important enough for you to bring up here, it's a shame you can't talk to your friends about it. However, I guess the positive here is that at least you get to discuss it somewhere!

It's more I don't feel that they need to know and I guess there's the fear that they may judge me in some way.

Why would they judge you - they're your friends!
Anyway - that's a different thread.

I read a recent article about a woman who'd had a termination 20 years ago and she woke up one day and had a breakdown. Now while I don't believe that she had the break-down BECAUSE of the termination, she and her counsellor had directly related it to that event 20 years previous.

That event wouldn't have been the abortion then I take it?

I thought it was tabloid thrash to be honest, but I just wanted to see if there were other women out there like me.

I dunno about that. If it wasn't a decision she was happy with, and if she buried it for 20years, there is no reason not to believe she couldn't cope.
Clearly though she is one person, and not the only person to have had an abortion 20 years ago. Again there is no reason not to believe that the rest all went on to live happy lives.

Zulu

therapy wrote: »

It was the most difficult decision I have ever had to make in my whole life. But it was the right one for me.

Do you mind if I ask you why it was so difficult?
I mean, it appears from your other posts that having another child was not an option - you make that perfectly clear - so why was it the most difficult decision you've ever had to make?

Please note: this is a leading question, so if you do not wish to discuss abortion (as you requested) it's probably best if you don't answer that.

The Corinthian

Reading though this thread, I find in interesting in that it supports the premise that issues of conscience, guilt and morality are very much tied into the validation we get from others - in particular authority figures.

An interesting study that's been done a few times over the years, has shown that people are more than willing to do things that we would consider morally unacceptable if they can be convinced otherwise. Not that we needed such a study, of course, as history is full of such examples.

The reverse is true however, and there are taboos that would wrack some with guilt that most others would think ridiculous, of which a simple, and close-to-home, example is the good-old Catholic guilt-trip with regards to sex.

So, without either condemning or condoning abortion, whether you see it as good or evil, whether you should be racked with guilt or sleep soundly, really comes down to what you have accepted as morality; largely through a combination of social pressure and self-interest (we are more likely to accept those values that conform with what we want, after all).

In this the OP may have been seeking additional validation or simply making a valid observation. But is good and evil something that we all feel the same?

No. We all have our own interpretations can be roughly grouped on, typically, an ethnic basis. We all feel guilt - just for different things. Except for sociopaths, of course, who are morally ambidextrous.

metrovelvet

therapy wrote: »

ONCE AGAIN I will state what I came here for.

There are many, many media reports on women who have had terminations and had nervous breakdowns years later, or suffered with depression as a result of the termination, or have ended up on medication for the rest of their lives because of a termination.

I have not discussed my feelings about my termination with anyone other than a counselor, at the time of the termination.

Two years on.

I have not had a nervous breakdown, I have not suffered with depression and I have not ended up on medication. In my 'real' life, I have been unable to turn to a friend and say 'Hey, How normal is it for me to feel that I made the right decision and have moved on with my life when the majority of women suffer as above' because none of my friends know I've had a termination.

So I came on the boards to put it out there. And it would appear, I am quite normal afterall.

Whatever normal is of course.

My guess is that you wanted to test the waters on how alone or not alone you are in your remorselessness.

However, like in anyother testing the waters, how you phrase the question will ofter influence or determine the answer. You have a few responeses here from women who have so far felt no guilt about what they have done, but this is no measure or indication of how many women are out there who do,so there really is no way of knowing how proportionally normal or abnormal you are.

therapy

Having found out that there at least two people who feel the same as I do, that answers my question. I have wondered for two years if I am the ONLY person who feels this way, and I've found out that I'm not.

Corinthian, I'm sorry but you lost me, I haven't a clue what point you were trying to make, pardon my ignorance.

And Zulu, I have no problem answering your question although I do have a problem with you purposely asking it, to 'lead' me down the anti/pro debate once again. But I'll answer it.

Let me explain...

I had a child who I loved and adored. I had never felt a love like it (and still haven't). I had found it very difficult to parent alone. I don't exaggerate when I say I was alone - there were many times when I wouldn't see another adult for a few days (I lived in an apartment at the time). I constantly fought with the internal conflict 'How can i love this child so much, and want to do everything humanly possible for it' and 'How can I cope with this situation'. For those of you reading who have children, I'm talking about the sleepless nights (he STILL doesn't sleep :rolleyes:), the lack of money, and the fear when you have a human being that you are totally responsible for. Not forgetting the other human being who should have been around (his dad) dropping in and out when he chose, but that's a whole other thread. And then I got PND and was put on meds.

And then I got pregnant. On the one hand, I could experience the unconditional love again and what a joy that would be. On the other, I couldn't cope with another child. I was barely (and I mean barely) coping with this one.

And so I chose to terminate. So while in hindsight it was the right decision for me (and my son) at the time, it was the most difficult decision I have every had to make.

So off you go..pick a few sentences above and lead them in whatever direction you have obviously chosen to lead my answer into......

The Corinthian

therapy wrote: »

Corinthian, I'm sorry but you lost me, I haven't a clue what point you were trying to make, pardon my ignorance.

My point is that there really is no such thing as normal or abnormal outside of what is the prevalent view in society. And this too changes and what is moral today will be immoral tomorrow.

Not wanting to invoke Godwin's law, but do you really think that the Nazis thought they were the bad guys?

People adopt the morality that has been imprinted upon them in youth, and from their peers and is validated by authority figures. They will tend to be more receptive to morality that serves their self-interests too - this is why you get so many people on the Internet seeking advice when in reality they present a distorted picture so as to receive validation for something they have already chosen.

In short, don't worry about it.

therapy

So we ALL think we're right? Is that what you mean?

I sincerely hope you were in no way trying to compare me to a nazi, who also thought he/she was right.

Zombrex

OP's question

So my question is really am I alone in not regretting my termination? Are there other women out there like me?

Who actually answered this question, or even tried to answer that question, in this thread? :rolleyes:

To the OP, no you are not alone. How much of a regret someone feels to an abortion will be personal, based on how they view abortion itself. A friend of mine had an abortion in the US, she never regretted it at all, but then she never bought into the nonsense that she was killing her baby.

If she had she might have felt regret about. So it comes down to your views on what you have done.

therapy

Thanks wick.

That's probably the most sensible thread in this post - including my own!:) I had sworn to myself that i wouldn't get into the 'debate', and lo & behold, I did.
Shouldn't have though.

Thanks again wick.

Zulu

Wicknight wrote: »

Who actually answered this question, or even tried to answer that question, in this thread? :rolleyes:

I take it you haven't read the whole thread before jumping in, because if you had, you'd have noticed that I did in my very first post.

Post 6 on the thread.

Good man. :rolleyes:

Zombrex

Zulu wrote: »

I take it you haven't read the whole thread before jumping in

I take it that you assume when ever I say anything on Boards.ie I'm referring to you specifically? :rolleyes:

The Corinthian

therapy wrote: »

So we ALL think we're right? Is that what you mean?

No, that's certainly not what I said. Morality is relative to where and when and who you ask. One man will think that meat is murder while another will think that beheading an infidel is what Allah wants. Even within a society moral opinions will vary, and in the West you will find people who will genuinely differ where it comes to issues such as abortion, leading some to never living with the guilt of it and others who have few, if any, regrets - let alone guilt.

I sincerely hope you were in no way trying to compare me to a nazi, who also thought he/she was right.

I was not comparing you to a Nazi, as others have suggested, this is Humanities not Personal Issues, and so what I am discussing is in the abstract rather than any individual case.

Nonetheless, it is interesting to note that you would not like to be compared to the Nazis. This too is due to the prevalent morality view, that saw their actions as heinous, which you share. However, my point was, in their society they had a completely different moral outlook. What they were doing was, from their perspective, moral.

The Corinthian

Wicknight wrote: »

So my question is really am I alone in not regretting my termination? Are there other women out there like me?

Who actually answered this question, or even tried to answer that question, in this thread? :rolleyes:

And if it was in PI, I'm sure I'd agree with you, but it's not, it's in Humanities, so tough.

Zombrex

The Corinthian wrote: »

And if it was in PI, I'm sure I'd agree with you, but it's not, it's in Humanities, so tough.

Tough?

Did I ask you for something?

The Corinthian

Wicknight wrote: »

Did I ask you for something?

So you were referring to Zulu specifically...

therapy

'This too is due to the prevalent morality that saw their actions as heinous, which you share'


Eh hello???? I'm outta here...just because this is in humanities does NOT mean you can compare me to nazis in the guise of an intelligent statement!
Bye. I won't be back.

The Corinthian

therapy wrote: »

Eh hello???? I'm outta here...just because this is in humanities does NOT mean you can compare me to nazis in the guise of an intelligent statement!
Bye. I won't be back.

Upps! Sorry, that was a typo! I started a sentence and never ended it or somesuch. Came out completely wrong, my apologies - I never meant to suggest that of you.

Edit: I've edited it to make it more clear, but to explain I meant to say that you share the view that their morality was heinous, not that you shared their morality.

Zulu

The Corinthian wrote: »

So you were referring to Zulu specifically...

I think he might have been referring to everybody who doesn't respond to him, not us.

therapy wrote: »

Eh hello???? I'm outta here...just because this is in humanities does NOT mean you can compare me to nazis in the guise of an intelligent statement!
Bye. I won't be back.

Therapy, he wasn't insulting you, he was making a logical point. That said, I think you might find/have found that this forum isn't for you. Please try not to take that personally though.

therapy

Why would you suggest that I may think that this forum isn't for me?

This post, as far as I can recall was started by ME and I asked a question. I also asked that it be moved if it wasn't in the right section.

It's not for me, you're right. But purely because it's been hijacked.

The Corinthian

therapy wrote: »

It's not for me, you're right. But purely because it's been hijacked.

Sorry, but if you post on a Politics board, your post thread will be treated as a political issue. If you post on a Personal Issues board then it will be treated as a personal issue. If you post here, on the Humanities board, it will be approached from a philosophical perspective.

TBH, I think this is more of a personal issue for you. I get the impression you are looking for validation for your choice.

therapy

How many times have I stated that I asked the mods to move it if it's on the wrong boards, and they haven't? This is about the fourth time I've stated that. Because it was about abortion, I was advised to post it here.

And I am not looking for validation for my choice. Nowhere have I asked anyone to validate my choice. Nowhere.

Zulu

therapy wrote: »

Why would you suggest that I may think that this forum isn't for me?

Well just you don't seem to be getting what you wanted. But listen - forget I mentioned it.

It's not for me, you're right. But purely because it's been hijacked.

Well, to be fair, people are dealing with the thread in the spirit of the forum.