Spiritualism and the Catholic Church

An CROI

Oryx wrote: »

I accept that your feelings are directed towards the people who share your faith, and not at the population as a whole.

I wasnt clear, but when I asked my question above, Im specifically referring to the example I gave of normal catholic folk praying to their dear departed family and friends, as mentioned earlier. Im interested in what you feel is the churches stand on that.

I don't have authority to speak for the church. I can only give my opinion.

My opinion is that - Yes catholics pray to their departed family - I have done this myself - before I became more aware of my faith.

Your point is well made (and taken) and goes to support my point that Catholics and Christians do not always know that the manner in which they practice their faith(s) is not in accordance with their faith.

Same as the fact that Catholics and Christians engage in new age practices believing that they are part of, or at least not contrary to their faith.

An CROI.

Oryx

An CROI wrote: »

Your point is well made (and taken) and goes to support my point that Catholics and Christians do not always know that the manner in which they practice their faith(s) is not in accordance with their faith.

I would argue that the priests dont either, in that case.:) I was raised catholic, and never came across praying to relatives (in any manner) being discouraged. Ditto for praying to saints.

This thread is about spiritualism vs catholicism. In my experience of it, from the spiritualist pov, spiritualism is not supposed to contradict or oppose other religious practice. The aim is that it works with it in a complimentary way. They dont wish to have people abandon their faith, and you do have Christian Spiritualists.

People dont realise it is a religion, with a deep philosophy and belief system, as mediumship is so often portrayed as a scam.

BeatNikDub

An CROI wrote: »

Hi BeatNikDub,

In fairness - I should point out that I started this thread last May and started the thread to open a fair discussion into the use of mediums, psychics etc. by Catholics and Christians - and also to encourage open debate in relation to the Angel "movement".

In hindsight I should have used quotation marks in the start thread. My BAD:(. Sorry!!!!!

I am a practicing Catholic and therefore won't be attended or seeking the advices or anything else from a medium.

If this thread is to continue - I feel it only fair that I make my own stance known therefore for the purpose of transparancy ---- I would (and do) discourage Catholics and Christians from seeking out and using mediums etc.

I hope this clears this up.

An CROI.

Hey no problemo, thanks for clearing up.
Everyone is entitled to go with what they believe in and feels right to them (once it doesnt cause harm to others of course!), was just concerned that you may have been co-erced into something you werent sure of which is never a good thing.

I am going to step away now as I am not a Catholic - all the best!

An CROI

BeatNikDub wrote: »

Hey no problemo, thanks for clearing up.
Everyone is entitled to go with what they believe in and feels right to them (once it doesnt cause harm to others of course!), was just concerned that you may have been co-erced into something you werent sure of which is never a good thing.

I am going to step away now as I am not a Catholic - all the best!

Don't step away :eek:

You are entitled to your opinion - what is a fair debate without hearing ALL views and comments.

As I'm going away for the wkend - I won't be able to post again until next wk.

Cheers All

An CROI

Miss Sunshine

Oryx wrote: »

But I have countless examples of people who 'talk' directly with their loved ones, not via the apostles creed. And I ask, would the church see this as disgusting?

Good question!

I would like to put my two cents in quickly. I was raised catholic as a child. I've been through all the scaraments and went to mass every Sunday. As I got older and started to question beliefs instead of accepting them my faith started to flat line. I don't believe in God and I find the Church, (I can only speak for the Catholic Church as my knowledge of other religions is sketchy to say the least) to be detached from society and very hypocritical.

Since about the age of 16 I ceased believing in the afterlife and heaven. However, I have recenlty developed an interest in Mediumship and have been to see a few mediums. My Grandfather, an extremely religious man, has contacted me on some of those occassions. By going to these mediums I have a new found belief in the "afterlife" and life after death. Knowing that my loved ones are still around and their spirit continues to exist gives me comfort.

My question is this? If mediums can provide this comfort and reassurance of the Catholic Churchs teaching (ie. Life after death) then why is the Catholic Church so against it?

jimm55

An CROI wrote: »

I have been told that I should speak to a medium or spiritulist but I have also been told that this goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church and Catholicism in general

Are mediums and spiritualists compatible with the Catholic religion or is it going against the teachings of Church to seek out mediums?

Yes , seeking help from a medium does seem to go against the teachings of the church, but if you can justfy it in your own conscience, then I think you should consider going. Pray for guidence and follow your conscience. I went to Joe Coleman some years ago, and found his help invaluable.

An CROI

jimm55 wrote: »

Yes , seeking help from a medium does seem to go against the teachings of the church, but if you can justfy it in your own conscience, then I think you should consider going. Pray for guidence and follow your conscience. I went to Joe Coleman some years ago, and found his help invaluable.

Jimm55,

Your comment demonstrates a lack of understanding of the Catholic faith and the Catholic Church.

In most belief systems, and certainly in Catholism and Christianity - YOU don't justify your actions when they are contrary to your belief system. Much like in society YOU don't justify actions or crimes against that society - they are wrong - end of story!

I absolutely agree with your right to seek mediums etc. and sure, you can justify it in your own conscience - but not as a Catholic or Christian. If you are a Catholic, which I assume you are from you comments on the Joe Coleman thread (perhaps you would provide clarification) then you are acting in a manner which is contrary to your faith. Worse still and more importantly - You are acting against your religion and the Catholic Church by promoting and indorsing Mr. Coleman.

An CROI.

An CROI

Miss Sunshine wrote: »

Good question!

....... By going to these mediums I have a new found belief in the "afterlife" and life after death. Knowing that my loved ones are still around and their spirit continues to exist gives me comfort.

My question is this? If mediums can provide this comfort and reassurance of the Catholic Churchs teaching (ie. Life after death) then why is the Catholic Church so against it?

Miss Sunshine

There are many reasons the Catholic Church are against mediumship.

One is the question of the "source" of the messages.

Mediums think so highly of themselves, they are confident that they can open a channel to the "other side" and control what comes through. - WHY?

Who knows for sure that the "spirit" "coming through" is actually a loved one?

Many use "spirit guides" which they come to trust. - WHY do they trust these "spirit guides"?

AN CROI

jimm55

An CROI wrote: »

Jimm55,

Your comment demonstrates a lack of understanding of the Catholic faith and the Catholic Church.

In most belief systems, and certainly in Catholism and Christianity - YOU don't justify your actions when they are contrary to your belief system. Much like in society YOU don't justify actions or crimes against that society - they are wrong - end of story!

I absolutely agree with your right to seek mediums etc. and sure, you can justify it in your own conscience - but not as a Catholic or Christian. If you are a Catholic, which I assume you are from you comments on the Joe Coleman thread (perhaps you would provide clarification) then you are acting in a manner which is contrary to your faith. Worse still and more importantly - You are acting against your religion and the Catholic Church by promoting and indorsing Mr. Coleman.

An CROI.

Its not so much that I don't understand what the Church is saying, but rather that I don't accept that they are 100% correct, all of the time , about everything. Neither do I accept that I'm acting against my religion by telling people about Joe Coleman. It is high time that somebody told the truth. I know more about him than most people. He has been a close family friend for 12 years. Since he died in the hospital , he does have certain e.s.p ability. He has helped a lot of people. Be using his "gift" he saved the life of a young girl in west Dublin early this year. Do you honestly think that he was wrong to do this? He goes to Mass and the Sacraments. While I don't agree with everthing Joe says and does, he is a very genuine man.
I knew a priest who was a school friend of my dad's who had e.s.p similar to Joe. Only his family and close friends knew about it.

As to why mediums trust their spirit guides, Sharon Neill gives a good insight into why she trusts her particular guids in her book "Second Sight".

femur61

Oryx wrote: »

Im getting a dead link there.

Maybe you need to do some reiki

An CROI

jimm55 wrote: »

Its not so much that I don't understand what the Church is saying, but rather that I don't accept that they are 100% correct, all of the time , about everything. Neither do I accept that I'm acting against my religion by telling people about Joe Coleman. It is high time that somebody told the truth. I know more about him than most people. He has been a close family friend for 12 years. Since he died in the hospital , he does have certain e.s.p ability. He has helped a lot of people. Be using his "gift" he saved the life of a young girl in west Dublin early this year. Do you honestly think that he was wrong to do this? He goes to Mass and the Sacraments. While I don't agree with everthing Joe says and does, he is a very genuine man.
I knew a priest who was a school friend of my dad's who had e.s.p similar to Joe. Only his family and close friends knew about it.

As to why mediums trust their spirit guides, Sharon Neill gives a good insight into why she trusts her particular guids in her book "Second Sight".

Jimm55,

I don't always agree with the law of the land..... but I abide by the law of the land.

I rarely agree with government policies (NAMA etc.) and I am vocal in my opposition to those policys but I don't purport to support the government.

It appears to me that you want to have your cake and eat it.

You appear to present yourself as a Catholic / Christian while acting in a manner that is entirely contrary to Catholism / Christianity.

In many respects I think you miss the point. Mediumship, psychics, tarot cards, angel cards and all other things "New Age" are CONTRARY to the church - they are anti-catholic / anti christian and have their foundations in other belief systems many of which are mystic systems from the far east.

I believe in freedom of religion, so I don't have a problem if anybody wants to partake in these practices. Where I have an issue is when people who are Catholics / Christians embrace these occult practices without knowing that this is what they are doing.

Over the last few years (esp. with the appearance of the "angel movement" and the "new age" movement) many Catholics and Christians have embraced these occult practices believing that they are compatible with Catholism and Christianity.

They are not.

Once this is understood, if they want to continue with these practices then thats their choice - but at the very least be aware that they are acting against Catholism and Christianity.

If you are promoting practices which are contrary to your religion....are you not acting against you religion?

Without knowing anything about the priest you refer to I cannot make valid comment other than to say that as few people knew of the priests abilities it appears that he didn't or doesn't use them, which supports my previous comment and analogy.

BTW - does anybody know of any other purported Marian Visionary who embraces occult practices?????

An CROI

Frank_Leach

Angie77 wrote: »

Hi there are many references in The Bible. Here are but a few:

Deutronmy 4:19
Do not be tempted to worship of serve what you see in the sky - the sun moon or stars.

Deutronmy 18 10-13

Do not let your people practice divination or look for omens or use spells or charms and dont let them consult the spirits of the dead. The Lord your Gods hates people who do thesse disgusting things.

Leviticus 19:13

Do not go for advice to people who consult with spirits of the dead

"The Lord your God hates people"......?

Not my God, He doesn't. He loves all people, despite, and because o f, their failings.
Maybe that's the difference between religion and spirituality?

Each to their own i suppose, whatever works for you..

An CROI

Frank_Leach wrote: »

"The Lord your God hates people"......?

Not my God, He doesn't. He loves all people, despite, and because o f, their failings.
Maybe that's the difference between religion and spirituality?

Each to their own i suppose, whatever works for you..

Angie77

I'm not sure which version you have quoted can you post the version you quoted?

Deuteronomy 18:10-14 (English Standard Version is as follows: -)

"There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD. And because of these abominations the LORD your God is driving them out before you. You shall be blameless before the LORD your God, for these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the LORD your God has not allowed you to do this."


An Croi

sambuka41

Its nearly impossible to live as a good catholic in this day and age, i imagine every catholic acts in a manner that is contrary to their religion. When they have sex before marriage, use of contraception, same sex couples, playing the lotto, swearing, adultery, this list goes on and on.

Life and (esp loss) is hard; people should be allowed seek relief and comfort in what ever form they find it. I would think any good religion or loving God would understand that.

There is a huge increase in people seeking the help of mediums or exploring other religions because for years there was no choice. People may return to the catholic church but not if they keep wagging their fingers and telling everyone they are disgusting,who would choose that, seriously? I wouldn't let anyone in my life tell me i am disgusting because i am looking for guidance or comfort.

Not trying to offend anyones religious beliefs just being realistic about whats an acceptable way to treat people.

jimm55

I was at a Mind , Body , Spirit. fair two years ago. In amoung all the mediums, card-readers etc.etc. was a priest hearing confessions. Was this a case of if you can't beat them, join them", I womder ?

Fuinseog

An CROI wrote: »

I have been told that I should speak to a medium or spiritulist but I have also been told that this goes against the teachings of the Catholic Church and Catholicism in general

Are mediums and spiritualists compatible with the Catholic religion or is it going against the teachings of Church to seek out mediums?

they are in competition with the church and floursihing in atime when the church is seemingly unable to give advice. catholics should seek out a priest for spiritual advice.there are some capable priests

Fuinseog

Oryx wrote: »

Its lazy of me I know, but could you link to the actual text? I already knew the churches stance but Im interested in reading that.

just read your bible

Fuinseog

An CROI wrote: »

One has to wonder why so many Catholics and Christians partake in Angel courses and Reiki courses and other new age practices that have become popular over the last few years.

because they do not realise that they are dabbling in other faiths. either one is a catholic or they are not. if they choose to dabble in these things they should be excommunicated.
even these horoscopes have made pagansim completely acceptable.

as indeed has harry Potter made witchcraft much loved. all we need now is someone is promote the nice side of satansim.

Fuinseog

[

.

Leviticus 19:13

Do not go for advice to people who consult with spirits of the dead[/quote]

trying to link up with the spiritual world is dangerous.

Fuinseog

An CROI wrote: »

Isn't it the case that you pray "for" souls and not "to" them?

An CROI

yes

Oryx

Fuinseog wrote: »

just read your bible

I would that life were that simple, and reading the bible would solve all. This is the same bible that tells me to hate my family also? (Luke 14:26) The bible, on which the catholic faith is based, is contradictory in so many elements. Reading it, as well as being heavy going, is confusing. You need a spiritual advisor or theologian to consult with, I think.

Fuinseog

Oryx wrote: »

I would that life were that simple, and reading the bible would solve all. This is the same bible that tells me to hate my family also? (Luke 14:26) The bible, on which the catholic faith is based, is contradictory in so many elements. Reading it, as well as being heavy going, is confusing. You need a spiritual advisor or theologian to consult with, I think.

maybe Luke got the wrong end of the stick here. waht do the others say. yes you need to consult with a theologean here, but not some class of magican who tells you your future by looking at cards or tea leaves

Oryx

Fuinseog wrote: »

maybe Luke got the wrong end of the stick here. waht do the others say. yes you need to consult with a theologean here, but not some class of magican who tells you your future by looking at cards or tea leaves

Which a spiritualist does not do either. Spiritualists use no props or tools and do not foretell the future.

imstrongerthanu

Why don't you go with what feels natural for you and nott what someone else says what's natural for you?
I don't get all these restrictions you place on yourself.
How are you to fulfill yourself as a human being if your destination has been decided by some books?Are you that narrow minded and closed to learning?

An CROI

imstrongerthanu wrote: »

Why don't you go with what feels natural for you and nott what someone else says what's natural for you?
I don't get all these restrictions you place on yourself.
How are you to fulfill yourself as a human being if your destination has been decided by some books?Are you that narrow minded and closed to learning?

In life - we don't get to choose to go with something that feels natural. What may feel natural to one person may not be natural to the rest of society. Therefore we follow certain rules / laws. Failure to do so usually leads to ostracism.

Catholism, like society has rules. Yes, many break the rules - thats another topic.

In the case of spiritualist and occult practices - many Catholics / Christians "break" the rules by consulting with mediums etc. without knowing that they are breaking the rules.

Does fulfilling myself require that I engage in occult practices?

Does deciding to read a book, in this case, the bible and deciding to adhere to the teachings, make me "narrow minded" and "closed to learning"?

An Croi

An CROI

Oryx wrote: »

Which a spiritualist does not do either. Spiritualists use no props or tools and do not foretell the future.

Oryx,

I think we both know spiritualists who use props - such as tarot and angel cards, crystals....................!

Unless we have a different definition of spiritualist / spiritualism?????

An Croi

An CROI

jimm55 wrote: »

I was at a Mind , Body , Spirit. fair two years ago. In amoung all the mediums, card-readers etc.etc. was a priest hearing confessions. Was this a case of if you can't beat them, join them", I womder ?

Jimm55,

I wasn't there (have to clarify that first!)

But how do you know he was a Catholic or Christian Priest?

Exhibitors at the exhibiton presumably have to pay for exhibiting - which usually costs thousands of euros.

Methinks there is more to this than meets the eye!

Perhaps you would elaborate more on this.

An Croi

jimm55

An CROI wrote: »

Jimm55,

I wasn't there (have to clarify that first!)

But how do you know he was a Catholic or Christian Priest?

Exhibitors at the exhibiton presumably have to pay for exhibiting - which usually costs thousands of euros.

Methinks there is more to this than meets the eye!

Perhaps you would elaborate more on this.

An Croi

I had a chat with the man who was outside the confessional .They had books , and leaflets , on the Devine Mercy, etc. etc. He was from Dublin somewhere , that is all I know. I did not have much time at the fair, as I had to get the bus home. I did think it was a bit unsual, I have to admit, but a good idea just the same.

emsii

i was born and brought up a catholic. i am a spiritualist now. Jesus himself spoke to materialised forms, Elijah and Moses who had passed over. those we call dead but are living. we can communicate with them as Jesus demonstrated. their bodies may be dead/asleep but their spirits are very much alive and conscious as we see from book of revelation where they are singning and praising God already even though resurrection of the dead hasnt happened yet. it is the normal way that God works-we can communicate as Jesus demonstrated such and said 'all i do, you can do and do even more'.
Isaiah 33:17 - thine eyes shall behold the land that is very far off.
Christianity allows communication between both worlds.
communication within the communion of saints is a supernatural phenomenon. occurs through the power of God when so disposes via guardian angels or what others call guides.
Jesus demonstrated this communication when he did it himself and spoke to moses and elijah who had died and were living in the spirit world- Luke 9.29-32 -and behold 2 men talked with him, moses and elijah who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure which he was to accomplish at jerusalem. these passages and teachings make it clear to communicate with those who have passed before us. these are gifts from God to be used as demonstrated by Jesus himself xxx

emsii

i told a catholic priest i see sprit forms with my eyes. light shapes of cloudy misty forms. the catholic priest replied 'it is called the cloud in cathholicism and is a blessing from God. very few are blessed with such sight'. he blessed my rosary and prayed for me. i see these people almost daily. i say hi :-) this is a blessing from God as my priest told me. i live and think in love and light in the name of God and i am blessed that God has chosen me to be used as a channel in his name. Amen. Blessings, Love and Light to you all xxx