Champions League Qualifying

highgiant1985

I was just reading an article on sky sports website Andy Gray talking about the arsenal chelsea match

http://www.skysports.com/opinion/story/0,25212,12064_5298234,00.html

In it Andy Gray said that -

"And don't forget third place this season goes straight through to the Champions League proper. Finish fourth and you start earlier and might even end up with a big side from Italy or Spain in what this year will be an open draw."

Why is it being changed to an open draw?

I'm not sure if this has been discussed here before I couldn't find anything related to it but what do you all think about this? Is it fairer? Or will it cause more mismatches in the first group stage of the champions league with possibly more "weaker" sides getting through.

I think it definately increases the chances of a smaller club e.g. Bohs, getting into the group stages. (Although there chances would still be slim enough as they'd need to a) get to round 3 and b) still need to beat some half decent side)

PHB

I hand't heard anything that they were getting rid of the seedings.

Personally, and ive changed my mind on this, I think that at most a league should have 2 automatic qualifications, and the other 2 should be put in against the top 2 from equally good leagues. Let the 3rd best in Italy play the 3rd best in Spain or England. And let the smaller nations have a shot to get into the CL, and try deal with the distribution issues.

Afaik, its the top 2 that go straight into the champions league next year.

3rd place has to play 1 qualifying match and 4th place has to play 2.

I did hear something about the no-seeding thing but not sure if it applies to both qualifying rounds.

Just found this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Champions_League_2009-10

That_Guy

Saturday night final next year? Being played in the Bernabeau too.

MementoMori

Seems likely that there will be at least one big-name tie in the playoff round and there is an outside chance of a big-name time in the third round.

Could see some big names in the Europa and depending on how the draw goes a small side might have a relatively soft path to the group stages.

ArmaniJeanss

This is the new qualifying structure. The 4th place teams in Italy/Spain/England will come down the middle path and will potentially play each other. Even if they don't they are guaranteed a tricky tie to qualify.

PHB

Oh that's a good structure I like that.

rossie1977

interesting the way uefa rank the countries leagues, 1-5 pretty much everyone would agree on but romania and russia ranked ahead of portugal and holland

highgiant1985

rossie1977 wrote: »

interesting the way uefa rank the countries leagues, 1-5 pretty much everyone would agree on but romania and russia ranked ahead of portugal and holland

Thanks to the user who posted a diagram because I was getting a bit confused over how teams would qualify! Jesus in that case Arsenal vs chelsea is a big match today as who ever gets 4th could come up against a decent italian of spanish side and that early in the "season" could slip up.

I'd be guessing but I'd expect they would have ranked the countrys based on some criteria such as the Co-Effs. Though I can't think of any Romanian sides who've done well in european apart from that 1 side who were in chelseas group this season while Portugal have porto who always seen to be around... Russia I could understand with Zenit doing well in europe and other sides etc...

DSB

Very good system, and while I'm not fan of the heads of UEFA as people, I admire their desire to lessen the inequalities between the elite leagues and the other leagues of Europe.

~Rebel~

Thats an excellent structure, gives a light at the end of the tunnel to those who have to go all the way through qualifying rather then in the past just getting consistently swotted aside by the giants at the last hurdle.

reverandkenjami

So what happens when Barca or Man Utd win the champions league? They will have a slot as title holder and as a winner/runner up of their league

lordgoat

reverandkenjami wrote: »

So what happens when Barca or Man Utd win the champions league? They will have a slot as title holder and as a winner/runner up of their league

good question? I'd guess it just filters down to 4 and 5 in the league of the country the winner is from.

Helix

reverandkenjami wrote: »

So what happens when Barca or Man Utd win the champions league? They will have a slot as title holder and as a winner/runner up of their league

nothing at all happens

the holder only qualifies automatically if they finish outside their league's champions league qualifying positions

PHB

I think the rules state that the holders automatically qualify as an automatic choice of their country.

I'm not sure which supercedes which though, if United win the double will they be the holders or the league winner.

If united came 6th and won the CL, they would leapfrog all of the teams be first choice, pushing the 4th place team utterly out of the league [a rule which I think is bull****]

reverandkenjami

I don't think thats the case!

The direct route has 22 teams:

The holder, 12 Champions, 6 Runners up & 3 3rd places! So unless my maths is wrong thats 22! Meaning United/Barca can't occupy both holder and champions which leaves one direct spot up for grabs!

ArmaniJeanss

This (the situation with holders/autoqualifiers) happened in 2006 when Arsenal played Barcelona.
Barcelona had already qualified for the next seasons group stage whereas Arsenal (4th in the PL) would have to go through qualifying unless they won.
So Barca winning would free up an extra auto spot, and from memory I think the team with extra reason to cheer on Barcelona that night was Celtic.

Why the Scottish league was picked to be the benificiary I don't know (obviously they were the next highest league who hadn't already had 1 or 2 autoqualifiers or something) though I'm sure it wasn't arbitrary.

Much of the above post may be wrong.

bohsman

afaik its Switzerland that will move up one as the holders spot wont be used.

ShooterSF

The number of places in the competition is currently allocated as so:
associations ranked 1 to 3 have four positions,
associations ranked 4 to 6 have three positions,
associations ranked 7 to 15 have two positions,
associations ranked 16 or lower have one position.
Of these, 22 teams receive automatic qualification for the group stage, as follows:
1st-3rd ranked teams of associations ranked 1 to 3
1st-2nd ranked teams of associations ranked 4 to 6
1st ranked team of associations ranked 7 to 12
Champions League holders or 1st ranked team of association ranked 13

So United or Barca would enter as CL Winners. Their spot would go to the winner of the 13th ranked league.

rovingrover

rossie1977 wrote: »

interesting the way uefa rank the countries leagues, 1-5 pretty much everyone would agree on but romania and russia ranked ahead of portugal and holland

It is based on results over the past 5 years. Romanian and Russian sides have done better. Although Holland is back ahead of Romania now for next season.


Here is the 2009 ranking

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method4/crank2009.html

_blank_

Qualifying Path 1 is still a tough run for the Irish team. (we are ranked 30th according to Bert)

everdead.ie

Des wrote: »

Qualifying Path 1 is still a tough run for the Irish team. (we are ranked 30th according to Bert)

We're doing much better now then we where and it should improve more now over the next 3-5 years hopefully move up another 5-10 places

Adamcp898

Don't like this new structure at all, well at least the bit about no seeding, it means we could lose one of the big teams i.e. a 4th place team from England, Spain or Italy if they get drawn against each other meaning they will be replaced by a side of significantly lower quality.
This will make the group stages even more boring because let's face it over the last x amount of years they have been boring with the quality of some matches being poor in that you can already pick what two sides will go through from each group as soon as most are drawn bar maybe one or two examples. This will just mean we'll have a group with three poor teams and one big one which will qualify by the 4th round of matches with ease, sure you can take the route of saying ''sure its nice to see a small team doing so well and being allowed to fight it out with the big boys'' but when that team qualifys for the first knockout round they'll just end up serving as a walk over or an easy tie for one of the big teams. The big tournaments are never as exciting and the quality is never as good without all of the big teams.

_blank_

A "big team" supporter I see, well done.

How do you suggest these "small teams" get better, or should they be ignored for ever and ever, and just let the "big teams" continue to cream off the money from the sport, while the "small teams" continue to struggle and go out of existence?

It's alright, and a very acceptable answer, for you to say you don't care.

ShooterSF

I think it's a step in the right direction. I'd like to see the winners of the big leagues go through automatically and everyone else unseeded in qualifiers. It would give the smaller clubs a great change and improve the competitiveness of the big leagues as winning it would give you a huge advantage in Europe.

Adamcp898

Des wrote: »

A "big team" supporter I see, well done.

How do you suggest these "small teams" get better, or should they be ignored for ever and ever, and just let the "big teams" continue to cream off the money from the sport, while the "small teams" continue to struggle and go out of existence?

It's alright, and a very acceptable answer, for you to say you don't care.

Don't think I fit whatever criteria you need to be a big team supporter tbh but whatever.

I'm just thinking about the quality of the football of the tournament to be perfectly honest.

If you want to go down the road of looking for a way to help the smaller teams and leagues then I'd say plenty of investment in the development in grass roots football in those nations and continue to invest in the FA's in those countries, I'm aware of the fact they stand to earn a lot of money from appearing in the group stages but if UEFA are just looking for a way to invest in teams then just start more programs for investment in smaller leagues.
I fail to see the worthwhile benefits in a team going to one of football's big boys and getting battered 12-0 other than we'll get to hear commentators go through the endless clichès of ''what an experience this will be for the minnows from montenegro to play at one of Europe's most iconic arenas, they'll not care about the result tonight'' and UEFA will be happy to be lauded by all the praise of ''isn't it nice to see a small team allowed get this far'', so long of course that they take their mauling and head back home to the sticks with a fistfull of cash and don't spoil the party by fluking their way to the semi-finals/final and ruin a ''grand European showdown'' between two of the big boys and deny UEFA their showpiece and big money maker.

_blank_

Adamcp898 wrote: »

Don't think I fit whatever criteria you need to be a big team supporter tbh but whatever.

You support Manchester United, a big team. That's the only criterion.

Anyway, I do like the jist of the rest of your post, but how can teams prove to you that they are finally worthy of a place among the big boys?

citytillidie

The "Smaller teams" are champions and therefore have more right than Liverpool, Arsenal or Chelsea to be in the "Champions League".

This Qualifying way is fair it gives 5 teams who have never been in the champions league a chance to play and get the money, who know Bohs might mae it, it will be good for the LOI if they do.

_blank_

citytillidie wrote: »

it will be good for the LOI Bohs if they do.

.

Adamcp898

Des wrote: »

You support Manchester United, a big team. That's the only criterion.

Anyway, I do like the jist of the rest of your post, but how can teams prove to you that they are finally worthy of a place among the big boys?

Fair enough I was assuming you meant that as a ''big team supporter'' I'd never watched or went anywhere near a smaller league but whatever thats neither here nor there now.

I'm not coming at it from the point of view that the smaller teams shouldn't be allowed to try and prove themselves I'm just saying that the quality of one of the big tournaments shouldn't be (further) sacrificed just so that Michel Platini or whoever can sit with a smile on their face and say ''look at the wonderful highly moral thing I've created''.

Let's face it after a few years of watching these teams get battered around Europe we'd be bored out of our minds and every neutral (moreso) wouldn't bother watching the competition until it's knockout stages begin and we'd be calling for some sort of system, i.e. seeding, which ensures there's a better chance of higher quality football in the tournment while leaving the door ajar to any small team upstart who manages to ruffle a few feathers and get that far.

If there was so much interest in the smaller leagues in Europe and not to mention the very small, then the UEFA cup wouldn't have had to go through so much rebranding in the last few years in order to stir up a bit of interest in it.

I don't know a good way of testing the lower leagues for entry into one of the big competitions but I just don't see the point of possibly having one on trial every year and watching them get battered.

citytillidie

The only reason the UEFA Cup has been devauled is because so many big teams are now in the Champions League.

_blank_

Neither do I.

But I certainly don't agree with even further marginalisation of the smaller leagues, just so Johnny Armchair can be kept entertained.

Adamcp898

Des wrote: »

Neither do I.

But I certainly don't agree with even further marginalisation of the smaller leagues, just so Johnny Armchair can be kept entertained.

Not changing it wouldn't be further marginalising anyone it would just be keeping it the same, and if UEFA were serious about incorporating everyone into a tournament they wouldn't just be leaving it to chance that an extra small team may make it to the group stages and increasing the size of the UEFA cup/Europa league to about 700 teams. Me thinks someone just wanted to make UEFA look a bit better in the eyes of the small leagues but without jeopardising the amount of money they'll make.

If it was up to me the champion's league would still just be the champion's from all the league and knockout from the start, yes it would arguably be lower quality I know but it won't happen anyway, there wouldn;t be half as many games and half as much money then to be made.

Green Giant

reverandkenjami wrote: »

So what happens when Barca or Man Utd win the champions league? They will have a slot as title holder and as a winner/runner up of their league

The title holder place will be freed up to allow the Belgian champions to qualify automatically for the group stage. In turn, the Swiss champions will be moved into the third qualifying round and their place in the 2nd round will be taken by the champions of Luxembourg.