gaping hole in irish politics left by pds

Joey the lips

I am sorry to upset you but the PD'S are gone cause there policys were wrong, there leadership under Mary and Michael was utterly a disaster and finally they were two alike fianna fail. They are not around because of this incompetance so there is no point analy what if....

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

irish_bob wrote: »

urely the pd,s should have had at least as wide an appeal as labour ,

I think it's also out of ignorance of people who would have voted for PDs if they knew their policies. I find a lot of people "into" politics tend to be on the left if you know what I mean. I was a member of the Young PDs in college and we were barred from having a booth on Socs day by some Young Labour nutters taking student politics wayyyy too seriously. I just said sod it. You're prob right, the silent majority of young, hard working people prob just voted who their parents did and got on with their lives.

nesf

P. Breathnach wrote: »

One of the reasons why the exchequer is in a mess is the structure of our tax system, with low taxes on income and relatively high dependence on spending taxes. That's the legacy of the PDs and their fellow-traveller Charlie McCreevy. Do we really want more of that?

From what I've heard one of the reasons for McCreevy's long trip to Brussels was his wish to cut spending after the 2002 election. I don't know how much truth is involved but if he did argue for cutting spending back then I sincerely doubt he'd have held onto his Ministry for very long.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Dyr

When i saw the title I presumed it was a reference to Mary Harney...

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

irish_bob

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

as the fella once said , it gets funnier every single time i hear it

Dr Galen

Joey the lips wrote: »

I am sorry to upset you but the PD'S are gone cause there policys were wrong, there leadership under Mary and Michael was utterly a disaster and finally they were two alike fianna fail. They are not around because of this incompetance so there is no point analy what if....

i'd disagree with you here in a sense. The PD's are gone because, yes, they became too like FF. They're core vote, became disillusioned by policy and saw that they were softening up in a lot of their more radical viewpoints.

wasn't it McDowell who said "radical or redundant", appears the man was more insightful than many give him credit for

cyclopath2001

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

i'd disagree with you here in a sense. The PD's are gone because, yes, they became too like FF. They're core vote, became disillusioned by policy and saw that they were softening up in a lot of their more radical viewpoints.

In 1997 the government introduced cycle lanes. In 1998, the PDs introduced a law allowing drivers to drive in cycle lanes. That says it all for the PDs.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

cyclopath2001

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

That was the original regulation before the PDs made their sneaky change to it.

Now, since the PD amendment, passed in 1998, if the cycle lane has a broken white line (as most do) there's no law against driving or parking on it. At a stroke, taking wiping out the advantages of cycle lanes, while still making it compulsory for cyclists to use them.

This kind of tactic of giving with one hand, while secretly taking back more with the other was eventually rumbled by the electorate.

sceptre

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

In 1997 the government introduced cycle lanes. In 1998, the PDs introduced a law allowing drivers to drive in cycle lanes. That says it all for the PDs.

Weren't the PDs very junior partners in a coalition at the time? They may have been punching above their weight (at least according to a few FF TDs I hd conversations with around that time) but unless they promised not to you could really blame both coalition partners if that's one of your primary issues over the past 12 years.

I reckon there are a large number of reasons to dislike the PDs but I wouldn't lump the above solely in their court unless they were clearly the driving force behind the change.

Pride Fighter

The PD's are an absolute disgrace. Mary Harney is even more corrupt than FF themselves. She gives hospital co-location contracts to her husband, in an act not only of rampant neo-liberalism but corruption as well.

Also she delayed the construction of terminal 2 at Dublin airport by 5 years as she wanted terminal 2 to be fully privatised and run by her buddy Ulick McEvaddy. The same guy who called the golden circle 'patriots'.

PD's are rotten to the core, as are FF and FG. OP FG seem to fit your modus operandi, they want to close all hospitals and privatise them. Turning the health service into a neo-liberal basket case like the Dutch model where patients are called 'customers'.

As for right wing economics, they made the current mess we are in. When FF and the PD's loosened regulations we got the disastrous building boom that made our current recession the WORST IN THE WORLD. Zoning decisions in all local councils aided this, building on flood plains and shoddy deals. FG supported this. FF and FG comibine to make 3/4 of all councillors, if FG did not support this, their councillors could have stopped it, they did not.

One of the greatest thing to happen to Irish politics was the destruction of the PD's. I will end by quoting 2 men I loath. "Left-Wing Government, No Thanks". Actually Michael McDowell, yes please, right wing bullcrap got us were we are today. "all these people cribbing and moaning about the economy should just kill themselves". If only you killed yourself Bertie and all your other Neo-Conservative and Neo-Liberal friends in FF, FG and ex-PD's killed themselves maybe we would have an Ireland of equals, an Ireland that works, an Ireland uncorrupt, an Ireland by the people, of the people, for the people and not cronyistic and corrupt.

Dr Galen

Pride Fighter wrote: »

. Turning the health service into a neo-liberal basket case like the Dutch model where patients are called 'customers'.

.

OT i know, but the Dutch health system is actually one of the best in Europe and the model is one well worth examining and discussing. The Dutch system is far from a basket case though

Pride Fighter

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

OT i know, but the Dutch health system is actually one of the best in Europe and the model is one well worth examining and discussing. The Dutch system is far from a basket case though

Its the same as the American one. Those who can afford it get the best healthcare while those with nothing get shafted. Neo-liberal ideas have to be destroyed, helping all and not the wealthy should be the modus operandi of any democracy, a democracy should help ALL people, not just those who can afford to pay.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Dr Galen

well no, it doesn't operate on the same basis as the US system, which I will agree has it's gaping holes alright.

Social medical insurance is compulsory in the Netherlands. Those who can afford it pay it, those who can't get a subsidy from the government. The government there has thus become a buyer of health services, not a supplier as well. It appears to be working very well, shorter waiting lists, reduced MRSA incidence and now, a growing body of medical research and development, which is creating jobs and status for the country.

what you say about those who can afford to pay getting treated, and those who can't getting shafted, seems depressingly like the syetem we operate here, never mind in Holland. You can hardly argue, that after massive investment, the government run system is really benefitting patients at present?

Anyway, we're going off topic here, I remember seeing a thread on FG health policy a while back. this discussion should probably go in there

cyclopath2001

sceptre wrote: »

I reckon there are a large number of reasons to dislike the PDs but I wouldn't lump the above solely in their court unless they were clearly the driving force behind the change.

Statutory regulations don't need any great influence agreement from other parties they just get authorised by the relevant minister, in this case: Bobby Molloy.

Let's add 'decentralisation' to the PDs lamentable record. Pioneered with great enthusiasm by Tom Parlon. A huge (and ongoing) waste of public money (but a great boon to rich property developers) from a party committed to reducing public sector costs. Guess where Tom works now?

The PDs record is one of lofty rhetoric while covertly doing the opposite, we don't need a return of them or their politics.

jmayo

Pride Fighter wrote: »

PD's are rotten to the core, as are FF and FG. OP FG seem to fit your modus operandi, they want to close all hospitals and privatise them. Turning the health service into a neo-liberal basket case like the Dutch model where patients are called 'customers'.

While I agree with some of your sentiments, I fear what type of country we would have if a Labour controlled by the unions, as they dominate the public sector, was in power.

BTW what does the HSE call patients, an inconvenience perhaps ?
I would rather be called a customer and get a proper service than what they currently offer.
Health service unions and health service worker respresentative groups have a lot to answer for.
If you can defend the cack handed service that has resulted in misdiagnosis resulting in deaths, long waiting lists for necessary treatments, over crowded A&Es all the while wasting money on reports, ill thought out IT systems, bonuses, ill advised consultant contracts, over paid over staffed admin offices, then you are no better than Harney.

I have no respect for anyone that has presided over the creation of an even bigger mess that the public health service has become in this country and she doesn't have the decency to resign or take any responsibility, but passes the buck to an inept PR driven management failure.
Systemic failures me ar**, tell it to the families of patients who have died because of these systemic failures.

Is it any wonder that the PDs' died when all they had to offer is a loud mouth arrogantly bellowing and a ould wan who refuses to accept any responsiblity for any of her departments actions.
To adopt a well know phrase, they had become more FF than FF themselves.

EDIT: I forgot that other former leading light, Mr Parlon, who firstly used the OPW, pushed decentralisation before promptly running off to lead the call for builder and developer bailouts.
Yes and outstanding example of the PD's and their representatives.

Pride Fighter

jmayo wrote: »

While I agree with some of your sentiments, I fear what type of country we would have if a Labour controlled by the unions, as they dominate the public sector, was in power.

The Labour Party are in the process of reform. These reforms will give the party leader greater powers and sever all links with the Unions. This will make them a genuine Social Democratic party and enable them to headstrong tackle vested interests like the IMO and Unions, whose executives are on obscene money. Sure with Social Partnership the Unions always supported FF, Labour have had no Union support since the 80's.

sceptre

cyclopath2001 wrote: »

Statutory regulations don't need any great influence agreement from other parties they just get authorised by the relevant minister, in this case: Bobby Molloy.

Ah, thanks for the info, fair enough for you to blame them then.

Of course Molloy was just a Fianna Failer who hated Haughey when he left and Noel Dempsey was Minister for the Environment while Molloy was Minister for State but your dislike is reasonable anyway on the grounds you've stated.

spank_inferno

Regarding the OP's point, The PD's loss has left a hole but it wasnt a gaping one.

Personally I supported the PD's because I looked at the others that have such a conservative social outlook (how the PD's are labeled "right wing" is absurd)

They were and still to this day the Only party in Ireland to support a womans decision to have an abortion. They were the first party to call for civil unions for homosexuals, they supported Divorce in the old days when the centralist parties ran a mile from it. These policies were hard to implement in government though because of their small size. (FF were all for liberal economics but wouldnt advance a social liberal agenda much)

I see myself as a liberal, and the PD's were the only Liberal party in Ireland

Somehow vested interests in the media & elsewhere put out this impression that the PD's were some sort of Thatcherite party of the right. The PD's were at fault for not resisting this impression strongly enough.
Over time the PD's somehow got dispraportionately blamed for the all round poor performance of the Govenment from 97 onwards.
Though they werent perfect I can honestly say the PD ministers were among the hardest working and most competent of the cabinet (not saying much)

I lament their loss, but in the end I think their legacy has lived on in that all other parties (including SF have adopted so many originaly PD issues as their own policies nowadays.

Elmo

It has prob already been said but I will say it again.

PD = FG = FF there is no difference. The PDs where just a bit more vocal <<< you can't do that in Irish Politics.

I heard McD was going in FG, but FG have said he isn't but then they said George Lee wasn't running for them, next they be telling me that they are nothing like FF

Elmo

spank_inferno wrote: »

Personally I supported the PD's because I looked at the others that have such a conservative social outlook (how the PD's are labeled "right wing" is absurd)

They were and still to this day the Only party in Ireland to support a womans decision to have an abortion. They were the first party to call for civil unions for homosexuals, they supported Divorce in the old days when the centralist parties ran a mile from it. These policies were hard to implement in government though because of their small size. (FF were all for liberal economics but wouldnt advance a social liberal agenda much)

I see myself as a liberal, and the PD's were the only Liberal party in Ireland.

They said these things but they didn't really mean them, look at their record regards children welfare. Not very liberal and just because you agree with Abortion or Homosexual Civil Union doesn't make you a liberal.

I would consider myself a liberal but then I don't agree with abortion and that some how makes me a conservative, I just happen not to agree with abortion plenty of other liberal idea that I do agree with, but then perhaps I cannot be liberal when I don't agree with abortion.

FG where the first to get behind divorce, long before the PDs where around. Labour also got behind divorce and abortion, I believe that one of their TDs (can't think of her name) is quiet out spoken about abortion. Cork TD I think. And both FF and the PDs promised an referendum on abortion, which never happened expect for that stupid one that didn't do anything for either side.

PDs where right wing in an economic sense while pretending to be some how liberal in other aspects of society. Right Wing tends to equal economic liberalism.

Over time the PD's somehow got dispraportionately blamed for the all round poor performance of the Govenment from 97 onwards.

Closer to Boston, then to Berlin. Deregulation. Decentralization. etc. etc. In saying that both FG and FF where only too happy to agree. McD's handling of the Statutory rape issue.

Somehow vested interests in the media & elsewhere put out this impression that the PD's were some sort of Thatcherite party of the right. The PD's were at fault for not resisting this impression strongly enough.

That is because they never apologized for being exactly that, that is what they were and they weren't going to pretend to be something they are not. Only good thing about them, a tiny bit of honesty.

Harney is a fan of Thatcher.

cyclopath2001

spank_inferno wrote: »

Over time the PD's somehow got dispraportionately blamed for the all round poor performance of the Govenment from 97 onwards.

That's pure spin. Something the PDs were quite good at.

I hate to pick on Tom Parlon, but do you seriously believe he was a reluctant party to the decentralisation disaster & that he grudgingly took a job at the CIF after years of resisting throwing money at the building industry?

They had a good brand-image for a while, but their product was basicly rubbish. The public found out and that's why they failed.

spank_inferno

Elmo wrote: »

They said these things but they didn't really mean them, look at their record regards children welfare.

I dont follow? What record is that? I dont recall any PD td being minister of Social welfare, that brief has been held by a FF td for as long as I remember?

I dont think they got a chance to implement their social liberalism to much an extent anyway. When 2 parties work out a programme for government the smaller party has to jetison much of their policies in favour of the ones they feel would be more likely be agreed on.

Unfortunately considering the still strong church influence on FF we never got to see what might have been.

Elmo

spank_inferno wrote: »

I dont follow? What record is that? I dont recall any PD td being minister of Social welfare, that brief has been held by a FF td for as long as I remember?

I dont think they got a chance to implement their social liberalism to much an extent anyway. When 2 parties work out a programme for government the smaller party has to jetison much of their policies in favour of the ones they feel would be more likely be agreed on.

Unfortunately considering the still strong church influence on FF we never got to see what might have been.

Minister for Justice and Minister for Health and Children for about 5 years. McD was AG for 3 years, because Harney wanted him in the role. They are both in responisble roles for child welfare in particular the statutory rape cases brought before the courts againist the Minister Of Justice.

They did influence FF and FF where only to happy to be influence by them, they brought about major changes in deregulation and liberlisation of the Irish economy during the 10 years from 1997 to 2007, Harney was Minister for Trade and Employment (FAS was presided over by her department) and McCreevy was very much a PD leaning FF minister for finance. He and Harney have said so.

spank_inferno

Elmo wrote: »

Minister for Justice and Minister for Health and Children for about 5 years. McD was AG for 3 years, because Harney wanted him in the role. They are both in responisble roles for child welfare in particular the statutory rape cases brought before the courts againist the Minister Of Justice.

fair point

P. Breathnach

Elmo wrote: »

... They did influence FF and FF where only to happy to be influence by them, they brought about major changes in deregulation and liberlisation of the Irish economy during the 10 years from 1997 to 2007, Harney was Minister for Trade and Employment (FAS was presided over by her department) and McCreevy was very much a PD leaning FF minister for finance. He and Harney have said so.

Regulation in Ireland is very uneven, and I don't think there is anything like a consistent political approach, based on general principles.

And, of course, we all know about light-touch regulation of the banking sector.

Elmo

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Regulation in Ireland is very uneven, and I don't think there is anything like a consistent political approach, based on general principles.

And, of course, we all know about light-touch regulation of the banking sector.

I agree with your point (just to state).


The problem was who do we blame? The neo-Liberals who were supporting what many of the supporters believe to be a corrupt partners? Of course their supporters are going to move back to the other neo-Liberals (FG) and now that we see the light-touch regulation we can blame the PD influence on FF because they shouted their views on the Economy from the roof tops.

I don't think there is a Right gap, gapping from Dail Eireann. FG have moved so far in to that gap left vacant by the PD. As a bigger party for the Right FG can please most of the people most of the time, the PDs could never have done that. (I do not support FG or FF or the PDs I am just discussing the thread).