gaping hole in irish politics left by pds

nesf

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Its the same as the American one. Those who can afford it get the best healthcare while those with nothing get shafted. Neo-liberal ideas have to be destroyed, helping all and not the wealthy should be the modus operandi of any democracy, a democracy should help ALL people, not just those who can afford to pay.

Eh mate, the Dutch government pays for health insurance for those who can't afford it, it just requires those who can afford it to pay for it. I'm not sure what you've read about the Dutch system but they've been lying to you.

NewDubliner

Elmo wrote: »

They did influence FF and FF where only to happy to be influence by them, they brought about major changes in deregulation and liberlisation of the Irish economy during the 10 years from 1997 to 2007,

Hmm, yes, they liberalised Eircom and our banks.

Elmo wrote: »

Harney was Minister for Trade and Employment (FAS was presided over by her department)

Fás - the first class airline.

Elmo wrote: »

and McCreevy was very much a PD leaning FF minister for finance.

McCreevy - the father of 'decentralisation'.

Joey the lips

Joey the lips wrote: »

I am sorry to upset you but the PD'S are gone cause there policys were wrong, there leadership under Mary and Michael was utterly a disaster and finally they were two alike fianna fail. They are not around because of this incompetance so there is no point analy what if....

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

i'd disagree with you here in a sense. The PD's are gone because, yes, they became too like FF. They're core vote, became disillusioned by policy and saw that they were softening up in a lot of their more radical viewpoints.

wasn't it McDowell who said "radical or redundant", appears the man was more insightful than many give him credit for

Mystik are you disagreeing with me or agreeing with me? It looks like you agreeing! It was the PD'S who approved the buying of thornton hall wasnt it! Thats a radical decision lets pay 260 euro per acre intead of 26 euro per acre its then value. I can go on but I am giving the PD'S policy approval.

The PD'S became daft the the day des o malley left.... and mary harney took over. Ever since there has been a shadow on the PD'S they were useless! oh but they did have liz o donnell, she is always worth a look

Elmo

NewDubliner wrote: »

Hmm, yes, they liberalised Eircom and our banks.

Fás - the first class airline.

McCreevy - the father of 'decentralisation'.

I amn't sure if you are agree with me or not???? I though Parlon was the man of Decentralization "Welcome to Parlon Country". It doesn't matter because Mary Harney is still Minister for Health showing that the gapping hole that the poster is talking about isn't there at all.

I mean we can't lay the total blame for all of the policies of the 1997 - 2007 squarely at the door of the PDs but they did end up take allot of the blame due to their insistence that it was all them and they push FF along.

zielarz

I didn't get answer in the other thread: can you tell me is there a real right wing party in Ireland? I mean a party which is going to the lower taxes and radically cut the expenses.

Elmo

zielarz wrote: »

I didn't get answer in the other thread: can you tell me is there a real right wing party in Ireland? I mean a party which is going to the lower taxes and radically cut the expenses.

No party is going to be able to Reduce taxes and radically cut the expenses. They maybe able to cut expenses but the will not cut taxes the days of taxes cuts and hidden taxes are gone. Libertas might be thinking about it but they are just not going to get elected.

FF and the PDs radically slashed taxes during the good times and they did it to quickly. If all you are looking for from any party is tax cuts then you should really think about other issues that effect you.

More important then taxes cuts is how do they use the taxes they receive. I wouldn't mind a tax increase if I could be sure that the government (any government) would use those tax correctly.

The PDs wouldn't be looking to cut taxes either TBH. They would like to keep them at the current rates but not much more. Remember the PDs never thought of decreasing VAT, removing VRT and other indirect taxes. FF/PD government gave us more of them from what I can see.

spank_inferno

The short answer is no, there isnt such a party.

I dont want to go into it much, but I think its because most people in Ireland dont really understand what "right wing" or "left wing" mean.

hence even our supposed "left" parties are pretty dead centre.

P. Breathnach

spank_inferno wrote: »

... hence even our supposed "left" parties are pretty dead centre.

That comes down to each observer's perspective (and mine is about the same as spank_inferno's on this question).

There are people who think even our most right-wing politicians (we don't now have a right-wing party to house people like Harney, Varadkar, Cullen, and Creighton) are on the left.

Elmo

spank_inferno wrote: »

The short answer is no, there isnt such a party.

I dont want to go into it much, but I think its because most people in Ireland dont really understand what "right wing" or "left wing" mean.

hence even our supposed "left" parties are pretty dead centre.

But this is the mistake you are making that you think FF and FG are Left when the are Centre Right and while Labour are more Centre leaning left.

I would say that the two main parties are Right Wing conservative. While Labour and Greens are Left wing Liberal. Perhaps PDs are Right wing Liberal but I don't honestly believe that.

We do need a change and the only way that that change can take place is when FF/FG form a government. Having Labour move into government with FF or FG just causes confusion. FF/FG in government with a Left wing opposition, and eventually viasversa. This would be good for democracy. Smaller far Right parties (IMO PDs) and far Left parties (IMO SF and The Socialists) would then be allowed to actually fill that gap that is need in the Oireactas. But then we also need to stop with the Local politics in the Oireactas and deal with National issues and legislation.

But everything currently is very centre, which I don't mind because I believe in good economic liberalism (but regulated, allow new opportunities and growth) and good social liberalism (free education, free health).

Is being right only about reducing taxes and being left only about increasing taxes? As I said it is what you do with those taxes.

Elmo

Also just to say I am not happy with the government regardless of where they lie politically. The FF with the PDs didn't use their taxes correctly and rapidly reduce taxes with out any forward thinking. The Greens now sit in government hoping that they with FF can clean up the mess, but I don't think FG would be much better and The Greens would suffer in such a government. But this is OTT.

turgon

Elmo wrote: »

I would say that the two main parties are Right Wing conservative.

So how do explain the consistent love affair with the unions and the bloated social welfare system?

Elmo

turgon wrote: »

So how do explain the consistent love affair with the unions and the bloated social welfare system?

And their love affair with Developers, builders, millionaires, bankers etc ???? you explain that love affair? It is called voters they all cast votes. They are afraid to piss anyone off. Look at Tom Parlon, look where he is now.

The social welfare system has only become bloated because of their love affair with the Developers etc. Where have the job losses been? It has been a total castastrophy. Those who recently ended up on Social Welfare are entitled to it they need all the help they can get so that they can get new jobs, as soon as they are created.

So don't give go with the same old line that it is all the fault of the Unions, because they aren't the only ones to blame.

Joey the lips

turgon wrote: »

So how do explain the consistent love affair with the unions and the bloated social welfare system?

Its called social partnership!

ie the unions told the goverment "Work with us or we will go on strike". The unions had the logic right, you deal with a bully ie the goverment by becoming a bully!

zielarz

Elmo wrote: »

No party is going to be able to Reduce taxes and radically cut the expenses. They maybe able to cut expenses but the will not cut taxes the days of taxes cuts and hidden taxes are gone. Libertas might be thinking about it but they are just not going to get elected.

FF and the PDs radically slashed taxes during the good times and they did it to quickly. If all you are looking for from any party is tax cuts then you should really think about other issues that effect you.

More important then taxes cuts is how do they use the taxes they receive. I wouldn't mind a tax increase if I could be sure that the government (any government) would use those tax correctly.

The PDs wouldn't be looking to cut taxes either TBH. They would like to keep them at the current rates but not much more. Remember the PDs never thought of decreasing VAT, removing VRT and other indirect taxes. FF/PD government gave us more of them from what I can see.

Thanks for the answer Elmo.

The taxes are the only thing which affect me and everyone as a consumer. I want to buy as much as possible for the money that i'm earning. That's why I'm looking for a party which will lower the taxes. This will also mean that the expenses like social walfare, healthcare are reduced. Eventually i'd like both of them gone. The same applies to the minimum wage. We should reduce it order to boost the employment and eventually remove it. Let the free market decide what the minimum wage is, not the government. If there is no such party than I don't see any hope for a quick recover.

Elmo

zielarz wrote: »

Thanks for the answer Elmo.

The taxes are the only thing which affect me and everyone as a consumer. I want to buy as much as possible for the money that i'm earning. That's why I'm looking for a party which will lower the taxes. This will also mean that the expenses like social walfare, healthcare are reduced. Eventually i'd like both of them gone. The same applies to the minimum wage. We should reduce it order to boost the employment and eventually remove it. Let the free market decide what the minimum wage is, not the government. If there is no such party than I don't see any hope for a quick recover.

Both taxes and social services?

You cann't totally get rid of taxes, if you get rid of taxes you bring in stelth taxes which is what the government under PD/FF leadership have done over the last 10 years.

While there are issues around who should get the social welfare etc I do think we need to support families with Children with disabilities and people with disablities, who would pay for these services, the family themselfs what if they cann't afford it.

I am sorry to disappoint you but the myth about reducing taxes to help people spend our way out of recession is a fools game.

For example on the one hand you want cheaper labour (reducing many peoples incomes) and at the same time reducing taxes (which pay for many services that people on 2euro an hour need, there are many out their working hard for their minimum wage to pay to be part of society.)

Elmo

I also wanted to add that economically I believe in a balance between Capitalism (i.e. the individual should be allow earn as much as they can) and socialism(i.e. Health, Education, infrastructure should be invested in to allow all benefit and try to earn as much as they can).

And also to point out that Mary Harney introduced the Minimum Wage.

And finally that the Government was wrong to have 3 budgets, this has cause problems. Which are referred to in zielarz post about spending our way out of the economic crisis. Lets face it most of us are holding on for the next budget which could be sooner then December, CONFIDENCE WE DO NOT HAVE. I will agree that money is need in the economy but I just want to point out that the government did need to increase taxes. The first budget was hard on the wrong people and should have been more equal. e.g. Widening the tax brackets in the lower and higher rates, return the higher rate back to before Mr. Cowen's reduction and the introduction of a higher rate at 200,000euro. Which I believe in effect would account for much of the messing about with levies etc. Oh and also again referring to spending our way out of the recession, to lower VAT rates, but also to re-examine the VAT rates and look at items that need to be in the 0% bracket (but this would be done after the reduction in VAT). Cuts in spending and in social welfare would also have had to be introduced. I.E. one big bad budget. Health and educational reform but not cuts.

Re-allign are export market to the Eurozone, why did the Minister of Trade and Employment make a trip to LA? why not to Barcelona? or Paris? or Berlin? were are exports would not suffer from bad or good exchange rates.