Is it time for Arsene Wenger to go?

AdamD

Nay

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Arsenals wage bill was £143m last year, considering Liverpools was £129m in 2011 and they have made efforts to reduce it I'm pretty sure arsenal are 5th. The last five years there is an £80m difference in net spend between Arsenal and Spurs in net spend but Arsenal have spend about £311m more in wages compared to Spurs.

Source for that? Looks very off

Drexel

People are forgetting that Wenger also managed to get a shiny new stadium built without any sugar daddy money and still managed to keep the team competitive . that stadium will be completely paid off in the next couple of years.

The downside of this is there isnt as much money available for players and wages and this season and last seasons performances are linked to that.

Our new sponsorship deals are starting to come through and with the stadium debt nearly gone we will start being able to compete for better players then. I wouldnt want anyone other then wenger to be able to spend that money.

Chucky the tree

AdamD wrote: »

Source for that? Looks very off

http://swissramble.blogspot.ie/2012/05/liverpool-keep-car-running.html

It's actually about £290m

L'prof

Is it time for Wenger to go? Certainly not! Has his position become increasingly difficult? Absolutely!

I still don't see the point in appointing a new manager and giving him a transfer budget when Wenger hasn't had one since the new stadium.

For those of you alluding to our budget being comprised of our wages and expenditure combined, how could we possibly have reduced our wage bill sufficiently to increase our transfer budget???

Blatter

Eli Manning wrote: »

'somewhat' - That's very wishy washy.

you made this point initially:



They might be 4th highest spenders, even though they aren't - they're 6th. But more tellingly they're 15th in terms of Net Spend and have lost arguably their best player and sometimes players each of the past number of seasons.

When you actually look at things closely, Wenger has done a remarkable job at Arsenal.

You are cherry picking figures. Including figures from 1992 is not the way to go about proving Arsenal are currently punching above their weight.

I'm pretty sure they currently have the 4th highest wage bill in the league and it's quite significantly larger than Everton's or Spurs', clubs that have been very close to Arsenal over the last couple of years and who are getting far more value for money from their squads.

Arsenal are currently getting poor value for money from their current squad and Wenger has to take a lot of the flack for that. I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise and I really don't know how you can maintain that they're currently punching above their weight. They most certainly are not.

L'prof

Blatter wrote: »

You are cherry picking figures. Including figures from 1992 is not the way to go about proving Arsenal are currently punching above their weight.

I'm pretty sure they currently have the 4th highest wage bill in the league and it's quite significantly larger than Everton's or Spurs', clubs that have been very close to Arsenal over the last couple of years and who are getting far more value for money from their squads.

Arsenal are currently getting poor value for money from their current squad and Wenger has to take a lot of the flack for that. I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise and I really don't know how you can maintain that they're currently punching above their weight. They most certainly are not.

Seriously??? Arsenal aren't United, Chelsea or City!!! Their wage bill is high, but coming from a team that challenged for every title before the stadium move, how could it not be???

Everton are getting more value for money? I'd still rarer pay to see Arsenal, that mightn't last much longer though!

cgpg5

I don't think it's time myself. Who exactly will they replace him with? It would be a mistake to get rid of him before the CL last 16 anyway in my opinion.

They were in a poor position last year around Feb/March they then went and hammered Spurs and went on a cracking run. I don't think it'll be that difficult get top 4 this season. If they don't finish top 4 then I'd consider getting rid of him perhaps, but it's too early now imo

Drexel

Arsenal might not be punching above their weight (although they did finish 3rd last year) but we are consistent. No other team in the PL has been as consistent as Arsenal except for United. Wenger has kept us in the top four for 14 or so years while building a new stadium in the process. That is amazing and no other manager would have been able to do that I reckon. Ok another manager might have came in and won an FA cup or league cup the odd year but I highly doubt they would have kept us where Wenger has.

Wait til the end of the season and judge Wenger. Im still sure we will get in the top four and be another year closer to paying off the stadium and having a bit of spare cash to play around with

batistuta9

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Most clubs outside the top 4 have to deal with losing their top plays. Also none of them have the financial power of Arsenal.

greendom wrote: »

And they all have a significantly higher net spend than Arsenal.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I doubt it, maybe Liverpool but Spurs wouldn't have a much higher one. While Arsenal would have had a bigger spending on wages than all the clubs bar Liverpool for two years.

greendom wrote: »

I don't doubt it - I've seen the figures

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Show them then.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I mean who's 4th highest in terms of wage bill. How long do your figures for net spends go back?

since 03/04 http://www.transferleague.co.uk/league-tables/transfer-league-table-2003-to-date.html

# Nett Spend 03/04 - 12/13 Purchased Gross Sold Nett Per Season

1 Chelsea £687,000,000 £160,000,000 £527,000,000 £52,700,000
2 Manchester City £605,220,000 £170,400,000 £434,820,000 £43,482,000
3 Liverpool £422,380,000 £264,580,000 £157,800,000 £15,780,000
4 Manchester United £367,250,000 £238,850,000 £128,400,000 £12,840,000
5 Aston Villa £214,850,000 £108,375,000 £106,475,000 £10,647,500
6 Tottenham £365,400,000 £267,550,000 £97,850,000 £9,785,000
7 Stoke City £88,670,000 £15,595,000 £73,075,000 £7,307,500
8 Sunderland £180,280,000 £109,950,000 £70,330,000 £7,033,000
9 QPR £53,350,000 £2,650,000 £50,700,000 £5,070,000
10 West Ham £143,880,000 £108,225,000 £35,655,000 £3,565,500
11 West Bromwich Albion £80,485,000 £50,990,000 £29,495,000 £2,949,500
12 Fulham £96,080,000 £68,745,000 £27,335,000 £2,733,500
15 Norwich City £28,350,000 £17,410,000 £10,940,000 £1,094,000
14 Everton £128,050,500 £122,416,000 £5,634,500 £563,450
15 Newcastle £168,100,000 £164,200,000 £3,900,000 £390,000
16 Swansea £29,470,000 £27,325,000 £2,145,000 £214,500
17 Wigan £88,865,000 £89,000,000 -£135,000 -£13,500
18 Reading £20,120,000 £28,550,000 -£8,430,000 -£843,000
19 Southampton £52,765,000 £60,150,000 -£7,385,000 -£738,500
20 Arsenal £244,200,000 £267,770,000 -£23,570,000 -£2,357,000

since 03/04 Arsenal have finished 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, 4th, 3rd.
Only Chelsea, Man Utd, Man City & L'pool have finished above them

last 5 seasons http://www.transferleague.co.uk/league-tables/transfer-league-table-last-five-seasons.html

# Net Spend last 5 Years Purchased Gross Sold Nett Per Season

1 Manchester City £537,450,000 £130,300,000 £407,150,000 £81,430,000
2 Chelsea £309,300,000 £77,600,000 £231,700,000 £46,340,000
3 Stoke City £83,825,000 £8,650,000 £75,175,000 £15,035,000
4 Aston Villa £159,100,000 £89,350,000 £69,750,000 £13,950,000
5 Manchester United £186,850,000 £124,800,000 £62,050,000 £12,410,000
6 Liverpool £241,150,000 £192,050,000 £49,100,000 £9,820,000
7 QPR £47,000,000 £850,000 £46,150,000 £9,230,000
8 Sunderland £123,900,000 £87,550,000 £36,350,000 £7,270,000
9 West Ham £81,150,000 £54,800,000 £26,350,000 £5,270,000
10 Southampton £33,450,000 £14,600,000 £18,850,000 £3,770,000
11 Norwich City £17,050,000 £1,100,000 £15,950,000 £3,190,000
12 West Bromwich Albion £38,725,000 £24,810,000 £13,915,000 £2,783,000
15 Fulham £52,800,000 £39,700,000 £13,100,000 £2,620,000
14 Tottenham £202,700,000 £199,550,000 £3,150,000 £630,000
15 Swansea £27,980,000 £29,860,000 -£1,880,000 -£376,000
16 Wigan £47,100,000 £59,250,000 -£12,150,000 -£2,430,000
17 Everton £60,500,500 £75,816,000 -£15,315,500 -£3,063,100
18 Reading £9,200,000 £25,850,000 -£16,650,000 -£3,330,000
19 Newcastle £73,250,000 £109,550,000 -£36,300,000 -£7,260,000
20 Arsenal £137,400,000 £182,400,000 -£45,000,000 -£9,000,000

in the last 5 season only the same 4 teams finished above them


Arsenal have took in more than they've spent in 5 seasons since Wenger has been in charge, 4 of those season have been since the move to the emirates, the other was the year they sold Anelka http://www.transferleague.co.uk/premiership-transfers/arsenal-transfers.html

since moving http://www.transferleague.co.uk/premiership-football-club-comparisons/premier-league-comparisons.html
no idea now long it goes back
Arsenal Comparisons Players In Players Out Nett Spend Per Season
Before Move to the Emirates £202,790,000 £132,274,000 £70,516,000 £5,036,857
After Move to the Emirates(06) £182,300,000 £230,900,000 -£48,600,000 -£6,942,857

cson

He's right though, we most certainly are not getting value for money from the current squad, and the manager has to shoulder the blame for that. He is the one who we assume sanctioned the signings of Squillaci et al and now completely does not trust them whatsoever. Where AW deserves credit, is how he does manage to achieve decent results despite bleeding 1/2 top class players every season. Off the top of my head I'd guess RVP, Fabregas, Cole, Toure, Song and Nasri would all start for us were they still here. The Ashley Cole saga in particular is ****ing excruciating; for the sake of £5k/wk we could have had the leagues best LB for 6/7 years. Granted you can still encounter the cuntery of players wanting out, but I'd hazard a guess that had we kept the majority of that core group of players we'd have won a few things in the last few years and probably be there or thereabouts in the league this year. And as arseblog alludes to this morning; no matter what their disposition towards DNA/what the boy inside them feel, its hard to walk away from a winning team. Our problem is we just can't keep a group of players together.

I do agree however with L'prof that it would be a bit of a smack in the face for to show AW the door and let another manager have at it with the transfer/wage bill kitty which should be pretty sizeable in the next year or two between shifting the high earning deadwood and the new Emirates/Adidas deals. AW I feel has earned the chance to have a cut at that having had one arm tied behind his back while the stadium project was underway.

However he does have a few faults which he seems far too stubborn to address;

> He consistently has ignored or attempted patchwork solutions to areas that have constantly hamstrung the club. The Goalkeeper situation in particular highlights this; when Lehmann left we persisted with Almunia who clearly wasn't Premiership level and cost us numerous points, refused to pay £2m to Fulham for Schwarzer who would clearly have solved that position for a couple of years and instead had to bank on the emergence of Wojciech Szczsney to fill the gap. Szcz is quality, not the finished article, but still quality (see Swansea game this year) and we sort of fell into that situation where we got lucky with a youngster. You can apply this to a number of positions across the board.

> He seems to always manage to sign players with/that develop serious attitude problems. Adebayor, Gallas, Nasri have all had significant negative impact on the atmosphere at the club. Adebayor fought with Bendtner, Gallas effectively forced Kolo Toure out of the club and Nasri and Gallas weren't on speaking terms.

> He seems to have one game plan; a type of faux Barcelona (and that's being kind to it) and no plan b other than to go into some kind of 4-2-4 thing when we're chasing a game. Consistently playing players out of position on the wing and not getting the best out of them - Ramsey and Bendtner being prime examples. Ramsey in particular I feel for; the guy is ostracised by a large amount of Arsenal fans when he's playing in a position that does neither him or the team justice. We play insipid ****e an awful lot of the time, from touch line to touch line and find it very difficult to break down teams that sit deep (Stoke/Sunderland at the start of the season). How AW hasn't found/attempted to rectify this is indicting.

> He signs ****e and persists with it (Gervinho) or signs players and doesn't use them, thus essentially they are ****e to the club (Chamakh/Squillaci/Park - Chamakh in particular got a very raw deal I feel, he did well for us initially and then just got dropped for RVP forever more). The Park signing in particular is one of the most baffling decisions ever. The end result is that we're forced to play a ****e player (Forehead man) and that the 16 or so players that are always used get comfortable. There's no one breathing down their necks (Poldi is probably an example of this, he's been phoning it in for the last few games).

> Again with the stubborness; he persists with players that we simply can't rely on. Abou Diaby, I'll say no more than that. The other angle on this being that we've had serious problems re injuries at the club and it appears to be a recurring theme that hasn't been dealt with. I don't know how much say Aw has on the conditioning aspect of the club but christ you'd think he'd have some say in sorting that particular mess out.

It's painful to see where the club is at right now; I'd love for some of the old vintage to come back in some capacity (Vieira/Bergkamp/Henry/Campbell/Lehmann) and instil what it means to play for Arsenal into the players.

Leaving aside the financial stuff for a moment, a major concern for me is the apparent tactical naïveté Wenger is showing. I say "apparent" because it's obvious it's not working and I know Wenger isn't an idiot so there surely has to be some other reason for it.
The club has been playing pretty much the same way for the last 5/6 years and got nothing in return. It's no coincidence that when the squad was stronger we were closer to the top but we don't have the right kind of players for it anymore. It's really alarming that a pretty much full-strength Arsenal team were only able to score once against a team in the 4th tier of English football. Arsenal did miss 2 sitters but when it comes down to it a League 2 side almost held out for 120 minutes against a team apparently with PL and CL ambitions. There was little obvious difference between the match last night and many of the matches Arsenal have played against teams in the PL who intended to mainly defend. For a League 2 club to be able to contain Arsenal shows exactly what is wrong with the team.

Attempts at counter-attacks just sadden me. Just about every one will involve Ramsey receiving the ball facing his own goal and either taking a touch and passing back or taking a few touches before finally turning to play a slow ball out the the sideline. While he's being played out of position on the wing he's been poor for over a year through the middle now, he's just so slow and hesitant unless he's passing the ball backwards.

Something Wenger really does have to take blame for is signing half-robots like Diaby for big wages on long-term contracts. I said earlier that he isn't an idiot but I can't think of any way to defend the decision to keep Diaby draining the books.

Opposition fans like to point out the good things Wenger's done but he's done some really, really stupid ones and issues such as the lack of goalkeeper were obvious to everyone for years and he still didn't sort it. There's no excuse for that. There's also no excuse for about half of the first team squad, probably accounting for 35-40% of the wage bill being nowhere near good enough for the way Wenger is trying to play if he intends to win anything any time soon.

If the issue is the board then at this stage Wenger should come out and just say so.

Sgt Pepper 64

No, but I'd like to see Fergie go!

Chucky the tree

batistuta9 wrote: »

.

Yea it seems in terms of net spend they are behind. Put in terms of investment in their team they are miles ahead of everyone except City, United, Chelsea and Liverpool.

Pepe LeFrits

Liverpool are the only team in the league with spending comparable to Arsenal and thankfully for Wenger they've been run catastrophically badly for a long time.

Wenger: Better than Rodgers, Dalglish, Hodgson, Houllier and possibly Benitez.

Fuzzy_Dunlop

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Yea it seems in terms of net spend they are behind. Put in terms of investment in their team they are miles ahead of everyone except City, United, Chelsea and Liverpool.

Yes and even going just on wages which seems to be what you are concentrating on, he is consistently performing at or above the level that is expected based on the spending figures. Not exactly the disaster some would have you believe.

Chucky the tree

Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote: »

Yes and even going just on wages which seems to be what you are concentrating on, he is consistently performing at or above the level that is expected based on the spending figures. Not exactly the disaster some would have you believe.

And most certainly not the most amazing manager ever who done so much on limited resources. The problem with sticking with Wenger is that because they will never be able to compete financially with City, Chelsea and possibly United s they'll need to rely on a manager who can perform above expectations if they want to win trophies/challenge for a title. If Arsenal and their fans are happy with 3rd/4th position and winning nothing then they should stick with Wenger. The big question is are people happy to take the risk of letting Wenger go in the hope of getting the reward of a better manager in?

Obviously it could go wrong - but if I was an Arsenal fan I wouldn't want to just plod along like they have been doing for the last 8 years.

keano_afc

cson wrote: »

He's right though, we most certainly are not getting value for money from the current squad, and the manager has to shoulder the blame for that. He is the one who we assume sanctioned the signings of Squillaci et al and now completely does not trust them whatsoever. Where AW deserves credit, is how he does manage to achieve decent results despite bleeding 1/2 top class players every season. Off the top of my head I'd guess RVP, Fabregas, Cole, Toure, Song and Nasri would all start for us were they still here. The Ashley Cole saga in particular is ****ing excruciating; for the sake of £5k/wk we could have had the leagues best LB for 6/7 years. Granted you can still encounter the cuntery of players wanting out, but I'd hazard a guess that had we kept the majority of that core group of players we'd have won a few things in the last few years and probably be there or thereabouts in the league this year. And as arseblog alludes to this morning; no matter what their disposition towards DNA/what the boy inside them feel, its hard to walk away from a winning team. Our problem is we just can't keep a group of players together.

I do agree however with L'prof that it would be a bit of a smack in the face for to show AW the door and let another manager have at it with the transfer/wage bill kitty which should be pretty sizeable in the next year or two between shifting the high earning deadwood and the new Emirates/Adidas deals. AW I feel has earned the chance to have a cut at that having had one arm tied behind his back while the stadium project was underway.

However he does have a few faults which he seems far too stubborn to address;

> He consistently has ignored or attempted patchwork solutions to areas that have constantly hamstrung the club. The Goalkeeper situation in particular highlights this; when Lehmann left we persisted with Almunia who clearly wasn't Premiership level and cost us numerous points, refused to pay £2m to Fulham for Schwarzer who would clearly have solved that position for a couple of years and instead had to bank on the emergence of Wojciech Szczsney to fill the gap. Szcz is quality, not the finished article, but still quality (see Swansea game this year) and we sort of fell into that situation where we got lucky with a youngster. You can apply this to a number of positions across the board.

> He seems to always manage to sign players with/that develop serious attitude problems. Adebayor, Gallas, Nasri have all had significant negative impact on the atmosphere at the club. Adebayor fought with Bendtner, Gallas effectively forced Kolo Toure out of the club and Nasri and Gallas weren't on speaking terms.

> He seems to have one game plan; a type of faux Barcelona (and that's being kind to it) and no plan b other than to go into some kind of 4-2-4 thing when we're chasing a game. Consistently playing players out of position on the wing and not getting the best out of them - Ramsey and Bendtner being prime examples. Ramsey in particular I feel for; the guy is ostracised by a large amount of Arsenal fans when he's playing in a position that does neither him or the team justice. We play insipid ****e an awful lot of the time, from touch line to touch line and find it very difficult to break down teams that sit deep (Stoke/Sunderland at the start of the season). How AW hasn't found/attempted to rectify this is indicting.

> He signs ****e and persists with it (Gervinho) or signs players and doesn't use them, thus essentially they are ****e to the club (Chamakh/Squillaci/Park - Chamakh in particular got a very raw deal I feel, he did well for us initially and then just got dropped for RVP forever more). The Park signing in particular is one of the most baffling decisions ever. The end result is that we're forced to play a ****e player (Forehead man) and that the 16 or so players that are always used get comfortable. There's no one breathing down their necks (Poldi is probably an example of this, he's been phoning it in for the last few games).

> Again with the stubborness; he persists with players that we simply can't rely on. Abou Diaby, I'll say no more than that. The other angle on this being that we've had serious problems re injuries at the club and it appears to be a recurring theme that hasn't been dealt with. I don't know how much say Aw has on the conditioning aspect of the club but christ you'd think he'd have some say in sorting that particular mess out.

It's painful to see where the club is at right now; I'd love for some of the old vintage to come back in some capacity (Vieira/Bergkamp/Henry/Campbell/Lehmann) and instil what it means to play for Arsenal into the players.

Agree with pretty much everything. Wenger gets a raw deal, yes, but he has made and continues to make baffling errors that he should be called out on. Last night he said he couldn't fault his players efforts. Really? Our best 11 available couldn't muster enough effort to beat a team 3 leagues lower. And he says he's happy with that. I agree the team shouldn't be criticised in public, but don't praise them either after an appalling and embarrassing defeat. His persistence with Gervinho needs to stop. His reliance on Diaby is laughable. His substitutions seem to be decided upon before the game as he never seems to make changes to influence a game. All these and more make him very vulnerable in his position unless he changes is ways.

I don't we can blame lack of funds either, he's spent money, just very poorly.

greendom

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Obviously it could go wrong - but if I was an Arsenal fan I wouldn't want to just plod along like they have been doing for the last 8 years.

Plodding along when you have the financial strain of a 60,000 seater stadium on your back, funded entirely by the club itself, is a pretty fine achievement tbh, expecially bearing in mind the sheiks and Russian Oligarchs who developed an interest in the EPL at the same time; as long as we begin to see the benefits of such investment now in terms of finally proper investment in the players to keep and attract the best it will have been well worth it.

Drexel

keano_afc wrote: »

Agree with pretty much everything. Wenger gets a raw deal, yes, but he has made and continues to make baffling errors that he should be called out on. Last night he said he couldn't fault his players efforts. Really? Our best 11 available couldn't muster enough effort to beat a team 3 leagues lower. And he says he's happy with that. I agree the team shouldn't be criticised in public, but don't praise them either after an appalling and embarrassing defeat. His persistence with Gervinho needs to stop. His reliance on Diaby is laughable. His substitutions seem to be decided upon before the game as he never seems to make changes to influence a game. All these and more make him very vulnerable in his position unless he changes is ways.

I don't we can blame lack of funds either, he's spent money, just very poorly.

I don't think it's a case of Wenger spending money poorly. It's more he can't afford the type of players we want at arsenal. City and Chelsea have really pushed up the price for players and we just can't compete. Arshavin is our record signing for what 15 million or so. 15 million these days don't buy you much. He can't keep pulling Henry and anelkas out of the hat

Fuzzy_Dunlop

Chucky the tree wrote: »

And most certainly not the most amazing manager ever who done so much on limited resources. The problem with sticking with Wenger is that because they will never be able to compete financially with City, Chelsea and possibly United s they'll need to rely on a manager who can perform above expectations if they want to win trophies/challenge for a title. If Arsenal and their fans are happy with 3rd/4th position and winning nothing then they should stick with Wenger. The big question is are people happy to take the risk of letting Wenger go in the hope of getting the reward of a better manager in?

Obviously it could go wrong - but if I was an Arsenal fan I wouldn't want to just plod along like they have been doing for the last 8 years.

I don't think anyone would suggest he is currently the most amazing manager ever due to the lack of trophies recently etc. However the amount of ire he gets directed at him from some people is far greater than he deserves.

And I'm not necessarily against getting a new manager in if a top replacements can be had, I just don't want to go down the Chelsea/ Liverpool route.

Chucky the tree

greendom wrote: »

Plodding along when you have the financial strain of a 60,000 seater stadium on your back, funded entirely by the club itself, is a pretty fine achievement tbh, expecially bearing in mind the sheiks and Russian Oligarchs who developed an interest in the EPL at the same time; as long as we begin to see the benefits of such investment now in terms of finally proper investment in the players to keep and attract the best it will have been well worth it.

That's true. I suppose the question is then - are you happy for Wener to be in control of that investment? I'd say no and basically refer to cson excellent post. He's far to stubborn and he's spent so long ignoring such obvious problems that I wouldn't trust him personally. Obviously Arsenal fans could have different views.

wandatowell

greendom wrote: »

Plodding along when you have the financial strain of a 60,000 seater stadium on your back, funded entirely by the club itself, is a pretty fine achievement tbh, expecially bearing in mind the sheiks and Russian Oligarchs who developed an interest in the EPL at the same time;

Absolutely, it would be such a shame for Arsene to quit/get sacked only for another manager to reap all the benefits of Arsene's good work.

That being said he has made right cock ups but with 16 odd years of stewardship he deserves a hell of a lot more respect than he is getting.
(I for one have been very critical of him)

niallo27

I think Wenger is a brilliant brilliant manager but I just think there comes a time when a change is needed and it's best for all parties, I can't see this happening mid season but maybe in the summer.

Yurt

Nay

Serious question.What are Arsenal fan's opinions on Piers Morgan.I follow him on twitter and i find him embarrassing a typical sing when your winning kind off fan.

Yurt

Yurt wrote: »

Serious question.What are Arsenal fan's opinions on Piers Morgan.I follow him on twitter and i find him embarrassing a typical sing when your winning kind off fan.

It'd be against this site's rules for me to give my views on him.

greendom

Yurt wrote: »

Serious question.What are Arsenal fan's opinions on Piers Morgan.I follow him on twitter and i find him embarrassing a typical sing when your winning kind off fan.

Mr knee-jerk (you could drop the first 2 words and that would work equally well)

Yurt

Nay

What ?

greendom

Yurt wrote: »

What ?

What what ?

batistuta9

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Yea it seems in terms of net spend they are behind. Put in terms of investment in their team they are miles ahead of everyone except City, United, Chelsea and Liverpool.

they're behind in net spend yeah but...

with investment no, they're not

in the tables i posted since 03/04 the 4 you gave & tottenham have also spent more on transfers than them & villa only 30mil less - hardly miles behind

in the last 5 seasons the 4 you give & tottenham & villa have spent more on transfers, sunderland only spent around 14mil less

considering the amount of money arsenal take in - 5th in europe in 10/11 from the swiss ramble link you posted - compared to the others, they're not investing as much as they could/should & look at the wages to turnover in the same link for the same season the spend the 3rd lowest %age in the league after blackpool & man utd

cgpg5

Yurt wrote: »

Serious question.What are Arsenal fan's opinions on Piers Morgan.I follow him on twitter and i find him embarrassing a typical sing when your winning kind off fan.

Whatever about his views on Arsenal and football (they're rubbish tbh), he is overall an entertaining follow imo!

Red Crow

Blatter wrote: »

You are cherry picking figures. Including figures from 1992 is not the way to go about proving Arsenal are currently punching above their weight.

I'm pretty sure they currently have the 4th highest wage bill in the league and it's quite significantly larger than Everton's or Spurs', clubs that have been very close to Arsenal over the last couple of years and who are getting far more value for money from their squads.

Arsenal are currently getting poor value for money from their current squad and Wenger has to take a lot of the flack for that. I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise and I really don't know how you can maintain that they're currently punching above their weight. They most certainly are not.

Hold on you're getting way off the point. You're suggesting that I'm cherry picking figures yet the ones you used are just on purchases alone. Hypocrite.

LuckyLloyd

List of top level managers who have lost a Cup tie to a team two or three leagues below them during their current tenure of employment?

A few posts going around along the lines of 'ah sure it was only a League Cup game after all'. Rubbish. You lose last night you're done because it's an indicator that things are very, very wrong. You knew Hodgson was doomed when he lost to Northampton. Just a matter of when now rather than if imo.

AdamD

Nay

Bit ridiculous comparing Wenger to Hodgson, considering the difference in how long they were in the job. Personally I think his time is up, but if the team goes ahead and wins the next 5 games (all winnable iirc) then the outlook could be rather different. The next few games will show us whether hes lost his ability to get the best out of his players or not, imo.

Sergio

Nay

AdamD wrote: »

Bit ridiculous comparing Wenger to Hodgson, considering the difference in how long they were in the job. Personally I think his time is up, but if the team goes ahead and wins the next 5 games (all winnable iirc) then the outlook could be rather different. The next few games will show us whether hes lost his ability to get the best out of his players or not, imo.

Your right to an extent if win our next 5 games but i just cant see it to be honest with you. The game next monday away to Reading is a very tough game as you saw man utd got a good run for their money a few weeks ago there. I think the opposition have us well sussed at this stage and i think the tactics and the way the team plays(or not plays) is down to the manager.
Wengers time is up in my opinion.

bm1993

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

List of top level managers who have lost a Cup tie to a team two or three leagues below them during their current tenure of employment?

A few posts going around along the lines of 'ah sure it was only a League Cup game after all'. Rubbish. You lose last night you're done because it's an indicator that things are very, very wrong. You knew Hodgson was doomed when he lost to Northampton. Just a matter of when now rather than if imo.

Alex Ferguson springs to mind, Man Utd lost to Leeds (who were in League 1 at the time) at OT in the FA Cup. He's still in the job last time I checked...

LuckyLloyd

bm1993 wrote: »

Alex Ferguson springs to mind, Man Utd lost to Leeds (who were in League 1 at the time) at OT in the FA Cup. He's still in the job last time I checked...

Ferguson's career at Utd is a study of being the exception to the rule. Man is unfortunately very, very good at what he does.

More examples?

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

List of top level managers who have lost a Cup tie to a team two or three leagues below them during their current tenure of employment?

A few posts going around along the lines of 'ah sure it was only a League Cup game after all'. Rubbish. You lose last night you're done because it's an indicator that things are very, very wrong. You knew Hodgson was doomed when he lost to Northampton. Just a matter of when now rather than if imo.

Few little difference:

• He isn't Hodgson,
• Hodgson was doomed at Liverpool before the season started.

You like to act offended if someone mentions Kenny and Hodgson in any kind of comparison. I'm not quite as sensitive but I do think it's a pretty poor attempt at a wind-up.

LuckyLloyd

I'm not trying to wind anyone up, nor am I trying to compare Wenger to Hodgson ffs.

My point is how significant a loss to a League Two side is, what it says about the spirit of the team concerned and the level to which the players are buying into what the manager is selling.

astrofool

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

List of top level managers who have lost a Cup tie to a team two or three leagues below them during their current tenure of employment?

A few posts going around along the lines of 'ah sure it was only a League Cup game after all'. Rubbish. You lose last night you're done because it's an indicator that things are very, very wrong. You knew Hodgson was doomed when he lost to Northampton. Just a matter of when now rather than if imo.

Ferguson lost to division 2 York City back in '95

Paully D

Who'd take over?

sonic85

did united put out full strength sides in those games though? if it was arsenals second string that lost against bradford there would be some excuse - no premier league team worth their salt should put out a full strength team against a league 2 side and lose. if it happened to any other manager (bar ferguson) there would be repercussions. not with good ole arsene though

LuckyLloyd

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I'm not trying to wind anyone up, nor am I trying to compare Wenger to Hodgson ffs.

My point is how significant a loss to a League Two side is, what it says about the spirit of the team concerned and the level to which the players are buying into what the manager is selling.

I don't think an individual match should be read into too much. Last night looked like just about every match Arsenal play against a team that doesn't try to go toe-to-toe with them, couple of sitters missed, gaping open at the back etc. I also don't think 2/5 penalties hitting the post should be a tipping point. Had those 2 gone in would that mean everything's fine in the club?

Mr.Nice Guy

I think there's been a big OTT reaction to the cup game. Arsenal had the better chances and went out on penalty kicks to a team that have a good track record at them. It's worth remembering that Wigan lost on penalties to Bradford back in October and I don't think anyone feels it damaged Martinez. These things can happen.

As far as I can see Arsenal need Wenger a whole lot more than Wenger needs Arsenal. Imagine him in charge at PSG and what he could do for that football club with massive funding behind him and players who could be convinced to stay on contracts simply through silly money.

Considering the limitations in place at Arsenal which enable them to be financially solid I think he has done a remarkable job. Arsenal were being written off last season when they were something like ten points behind Spurs and we all know what happened. A few shrewd buys in January and the return of Diaby and I wouldn't be surprised to see Arsenal get fourth again.

BetterCallSaul

Complete overreaction. It's cup football, anything can happen.

Jam-Fly

Wenger should stay. They're talking about changing how the club is run with regard to finances etc. I think the least Wenger deserves is a chance at running the club with a lot of resources available. Give him 2 or 3 seasons to get back to challenging/winning trophies with money available, and if he still can't deliver, maybe it is time to go.

It's very easy say Wenger was winning the league ten years ago and now Arsenal aren't so he must be a bad manager. Qualifying for the Champions League every year whilst still being one of the best run clubs in England is a no mean feat. I think all things considered, Wenger has done a good job for what he has had to work with. Another manager in Wenger's boat could very easily have seen Arsenal slip further down the table (Liverpool being the obvious comparison. They have gotten to two Champions League finals and runners-up (with 86 pts which would often be enough to win the league) in the league in the last decade, yet year to year, they are capable of finishing any where from 2nd to 8th). I think it could definitely argued that Wenger has done remarkable to keep Arsenal there-there abouts (ie qualifying for the Champions League EVERY year) despite not realistically challenging for a title in recent years.

Ares

Nay

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

List of top level managers who have lost a Cup tie to a team two or three leagues below them during their current tenure of employment?

A few posts going around along the lines of 'ah sure it was only a League Cup game after all'. Rubbish. You lose last night you're done because it's an indicator that things are very, very wrong. You knew Hodgson was doomed when he lost to Northampton. Just a matter of when now rather than if imo.

Moyes lost to League 2 Shrewsbury in 2003, his first full season in charge. He also lost to League 1 Oldham in 2008. Lost to League 1 Brentford in 2010 in the League cup this time.

Pelligrini famously lost to Alcoron in 2009 with Madrid. Didn't seem to much wrong when they scored 96 points that season.

Benitez lost to Burnley and Barnsley in 05 and 08. That Barnsley team went on to beat Chelsea that season as well.

I'm sure there might be a few more examples but I'm going looking for any more.

cup of tea

Key question is, is there anyone they can bring in that would come to Arsenal that is a better option then Wenger?.If not then whats the point in sacking him before the end of the season?. I would firmly believe there are no better viable options for the time being (maybe Rafa might be out the door at Chelsea before the end of the season :P )

Amirani

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Wenger: Better than Rodgers, Dalglish, Hodgson, Houllier and possibly Benitez.

He's absolutely better than Benitez.

gnfnrhead

Sergio wrote: »

Your right to an extent if win our next 5 games but i just cant see it to be honest with you. The game next monday away to Reading is a very tough game as you saw man utd got a good run for their money a few weeks ago there. I think the opposition have us well sussed at this stage and i think the tactics and the way the team plays(or not plays) is down to the manager.
Wengers time is up in my opinion.

Didn't Southampton put it up to United then get hammered by Arsenal? I don't think those one to one comparisons work all that well. Quite often you will see a side get hammered one week and play brilliantly the next, and vice versa.

Fuzzy_Dunlop

This gives a nice illustration of what Wenger has done for the club.