Is it time for Arsene Wenger to go?

cson

That purple patch for us circa 1998-2004 should have been so much better too. Not a stretch to say it should have 2 more titles, a UEFA Cup and potentially the 2004 edition of the Champions League (**** ya Wayne Bridge!).

Blatter

Eli Manning wrote: »

Hold on you're getting way off the point. You're suggesting that I'm cherry picking figures yet the ones you used are just on purchases alone. Hypocrite.

What are you on about? When did I ever just use purchases alone?

My point is very simple. Given the money Wenger has spent over the past 7/8 years or so on transfers and wages, they are one of the higher spenders in the league and are not punching above their weight by finishing fourth. As said already, Liverpool are the only club that they can be compared with with regards money spent in that time and everyone knows how poorly they've been run so it's hardly a great achievement to consistently finish ahead of them.

It's absolute bollocks to suggest that Arsenal have been punching above their weight.

super_furry

NiallSparky wrote: »

He's absolutely better than Benitez.

I'd take Benitez's silverware haul over Wenger's.

greendom

super_furry wrote: »

I'd take Benitez's silverware haul over Wenger's.

Easier to carry ?

greendom

Blatter wrote: »

What are you on about? When did I ever just use purchases alone?

My point is very simple. Given the money Wenger has spent over the past 7/8 years or so on transfers and wages, they are one of the higher spenders in the league and are not punching above their weight by finishing fourth. As said already, Liverpool are the only club that they can be compared with with regards money spent in that time and everyone knows how poorly they've been run so it's hardly a great achievement to consistently finish ahead of them.

It's absolute bollocks to suggest that Arsenal have been punching above their weight.

So are they punching below their weight. Based on combined spend, where should Arsenal be finishing every year ?

Blatter

greendom wrote: »

So are they punching below their weight. Based on combined spend, where should Arsenal be finishing every year ?

If he had spent the money he used (and is using) to pay Chamakh, Squillaci, Arshavin, Gervinho, Djourou, Santos, Park Chu-Young etc. better it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Arsenal could be challenging for the title.

When you don't have the resources of the top clubs, you have to be more efficient with your money if you want to compete. United do not spend as much as City (transfer fees and wages) yet still manage to compete because they are more efficient. Dortmund spend nowhere near the amount that Bayern do yet still compete because they have been incredibly efficient with their money.

Wenger has been middle of the road the last few years. He hasn't overachieved or he hasn't underachieved. I was just replying to Eli who somehow thinks they've been punching above their weight.

greendom

Blatter wrote: »

If he had spent the money he used (and is using) to pay Chamakh, Squillaci, Arshavin, Gervinho, Djourou, Santos, Park Chu-Young etc. better it's not beyond the realms of possibility that Arsenal could be challenging for the title.

When you don't have the resources of the top clubs, you have to be more efficient with your money if you want to compete. United do not spend as much as City (transfer fees and wages) yet still manage to compete because they are more efficient. Dortmund spend nowhere near the amount that Bayern do yet still compete because they have been incredibly efficient with their money.

Wenger has been middle of the road the last few years. He hasn't overachieved or he hasn't underachieved. I was just replying to Eli who somehow thinks they've been punching above their weight.

I'm sure if we'd had the same net spend as United over the years, we'd be doing as well as they are. Yes there's been quite a few transfers that haven't worked out but that's because with the money available to him he has to gamble on a player working out. Put him at United's level and the gambling would decrease and so would the players that don't work out.

cson

United blew us out of the water for Smalling a couple of years ago. They've spent serious money too, Jones/DDG/Young/Kagawa/RVP. The first one in that list, Phil Jones, cost a staggering amount of money if the circa £16m price tag is correct. Granted the boy has incredible potential but that is just crazy money.

On the whole I would however agree with you Blatter. There is enormous waste at Arsenal with the players you've mentioned likely on big wages contributing absolutely nothing to the club. It would seem that AW has lost his eye for a value purchase over the years, especially when it comes to Ligue 1. Its not as if they aren't out there;

Chamakh -> Papiss Cisse
Squillaci -> Jan Vertonghen
Arshavin -> Marco Reus
Gervinho -> Hatem Ben Arfa
Djourou -> Yanga-Mbiwa
Santos -> Aly Cissoko
Park -> Miguel Michu

Could, I hazard, quite easily have been signed by Arsenal and I'd imagine the cost would have been somewhat similar.

I know its entering the Football Manager/If my Auntie had balls realm, but it just goes to show that they're out there, and all the above are most certainly not beyond our price range, and Reus apart; Arsenal would have been a step up from their prior clubs.

Ultimately the squad set up is of Arsene's making, and that particular bed he made he's going to have to lie in. It was him that chose a Gervinho instead of a Reus.

LuckyLloyd

Ares wrote: »

Moyes lost to League 2 Shrewsbury in 2003, his first full season in charge. He also lost to League 1 Oldham in 2008. Lost to League 1 Brentford in 2010 in the League cup this time.

Pelligrini famously lost to Alcoron in 2009 with Madrid. Didn't seem to much wrong when they scored 96 points that season.

Benitez lost to Burnley and Barnsley in 05 and 08. That Barnsley team went on to beat Chelsea that season as well.

I'm sure there might be a few more examples but I'm going looking for any more.

Moyes is a good example.

Pelligrini got sacked at season's end.

Burnley and Barnsley were Championship sides.

gnfnrhead

Fuzzy_Dunlop wrote: »

This gives a nice illustration of what Wenger has done for the club.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Arsenal_league_positions_1947-2012.png

Whats the blue one?

Fuzzy_Dunlop

gnfnrhead wrote: »

Whats the blue one?

Number of teams in the league.

2ndcoming

The funny thing to me is the typical English media circus. They constantly paint Man City and Chelsea as joke clubs over their managerial merry-go-rounds and ridiculous spending, then berate every other club who try to maintain a stable operation and try to needle them into being just the same as the others.

They're trying to hound Wenger out of his job because they have little else worth writing about at the moment. The back of the Sun today dedicates it's back 5 pages, yes, 5 PAGES to Arsenal's current "crisis". I doubt if we won the Champions League we would get as much coverage. Wheeling out twisted, bitter old farts like Stewart Robson and quoting tools like Piers Morgan, amazing journalism lads!

There are worrying issues at Arsenal that should be rectifiable, and I believe, like before, if anyone can steer us out of these troubles, it's Arsene Wenger. His track record in this regard is relatively bulletproof.

The simple fact is too many players now considered first teamers are playing without confidence, and to be fair to Wenger the reason for this is players like Gervinho, Chamakh, Ramsey are just not up to Arsenal standard. The fans know it, and they know it. Now you can say that's his fault he bought them and that is true, but constantly selling your best players is going to result in a weakening of your squad, and just how much say Wenger had in that I'm not sure.

January will come, hopefully on the back of a decent run of league wins, and some strengthening of real quality must take place. 4th place is still there for the taking, due to the relative weakness of the other teams competing for it, of that I'm still sure. While that's not what Arsenal should be aiming for, it's the reality of what this Arsenal team can best achieve. Sacking Wenger wouldn't help the club at this point in time for me.

Drexel

2ndcoming wrote: »

The funny thing to me is the typical English media circus. They constantly paint Man City and Chelsea as joke clubs over their managerial merry-go-rounds and ridiculous spending, then berate every other club who try to maintain a stable operation and try to needle them into being just the same as the others.

They're trying to hound Wenger out of his job because they have little else worth writing about at the moment. The back of the Sun today dedicates it's back 5 pages, yes, 5 PAGES to Arsenal's current "crisis". I doubt if we won the Champions League we would get as much coverage. Wheeling out twisted, bitter old farts like Stewart Robson and quoting tools like Piers Morgan, amazing journalism lads!

There are worrying issues at Arsenal that should be rectifiable, and I believe, like before, if anyone can steer us out of these troubles, it's Arsene Wenger. His track record in this regard is relatively bulletproof.

The simple fact is too many players now considered first teamers are playing without confidence, and to be fair to Wenger the reason for this is players like Gervinho, Chamakh, Ramsey are just not up to Arsenal standard. The fans know it, and they know it. Now you can say that's his fault he bought them and that is true, but constantly selling your best players is going to result in a weakening of your squad, and just how much say Wenger had in that I'm not sure.

January will come, hopefully on the back of a decent run of league wins, and some strengthening of real quality must take place. 4th place is still there for the taking, due to the relative weakness of the other teams competing for it, of that I'm still sure. While that's not what Arsenal should be aiming for, it's the reality of what this Arsenal team can best achieve. Sacking Wenger wouldn't help the club at this point in time for me.

The mail online had a whole 'arsenal in crisis' section too. It was laughable. The worst thing is that fans start to buy into the **** they are reading then

The Wenger and boulder rift was all on the say of a former player who never even played under Wenger. Then later I read a interview with ray parlour who said its all bull and its was a tiny piece on te website.

English media is rotten to the core

peabutler

How the **** does Stewart Robson still have a job at Arsenal ??

batistuta9

peabutler wrote: »

How the **** does Stewart Robson still have a job at Arsenal ??

he doesn't. He was fired

Ed Winchester

batistuta9 wrote: »

he doesn't. He was fired

Explains a lot.

Bitter bitter man.

greendom

Ed Winchester wrote: »

Explains a lot.

Bitter bitter man.

He's just loving this 'crisis' atm - he was on Newstalk after the Swansea match and was just revelling in telling what a terrible manager AW is - not listening to anybody, no coaching ability - he seems to think Arsene has based his whole career entirely on luck. Not only that he has an ego the size of a medium-sized planet. I really don't understand how the man gets air time.

Oranage2

I can't believe so many fans want him out. Theres no doubt we're going through a hard time but I've no doubt we'll finish top 4 like he has always done, if we don't id still say give him 2 seasons to fix it, Wenger brought us this far its the least he deserves.

Also as an arsenal fan it is disappointing we haven't looked to challenge in a very long time but surely that's more the board not giving funds/stadium etc.

This thread should get a break from half the posters here for a few days now anyway.

Tchaikovsky

He must be the greatest manager of all time once more, right?

purplepanda

Nay

It's Arsenal FC not Arsene FC, no man is bigger than the club. :rolleyes:

Those new breed of supporters who follow the later, chanting their mantra that Arsenal FC were a small club before he arrived, can also change sides when the time comes for their "Dear Leader" to depart! :pac:

.jacksparrow.

Nein!

L'prof

What a difference a few games make!!! Staunch Wenger supporter here, so I'm delighted with our Christmas position after our poor start. Reading quotes from the man himself seems to suggest that we might finally be able to start spending some money again. If true, exciting times ahead even if the signings don't come in January.

Pepe LeFrits

L'prof wrote: »

Reading quotes from the man himself seems to suggest that we might finally be able to start spending some money again.

Heard it all before, many, many times.

Good times have been 'just around the corner' for years now. Actions speak louder than words and Wenger has been doing the exact same thing, season after season for years. Left a fortune in the bank last summer despite selling two of our key players and what a surprise, turns out we're ****. 3 wins means **** all, really.

As an aside, some knuckle dragging cretin in the Arsenal away end punched a kid for displaying a Wenger out banner at the game today.

batistuta9

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

As an aside, some knuckle dragging cretin in the Arsenal away end punched a kid for displaying a Wenger out banner at the game today.

where did you hear this?

L'prof

Pepe LeFrits wrote: »

Heard it all before, many, many times.

Good times have been 'just around the corner' for years now. Actions speak louder than words and Wenger has been doing the exact same thing, season after season for years. Left a fortune in the bank last summer despite selling two of our key players and what a surprise, turns out we're ****. 3 wins means **** all, really.

As an aside, some knuckle dragging cretin in the Arsenal away end punched a kid for displaying a Wenger out banner at the game today.

This time it's Wenger talking about the money though, I dunno it just smells different to the regular statements from the board saying that there's money to spend. The stadium debt is more or less a thing of the past, I'd be surprised if Wenger kept his hands in his pockets for much longer and genuinely don't believe that the situation we've found ourselves in was borne out of stubbornness, but more out of necessity.

Jesus, happy Christmas! Hope the kid's ok.

Pepe LeFrits

L'prof wrote: »

What a difference a few games make!!! Staunch Wenger supporter here, so I'm delighted with our Christmas position after our poor start. Reading quotes from the man himself seems to suggest that we might finally be able to start spending some money again. If true, exciting times ahead even if the signings don't come in January.

batistuta9 wrote: »

where did you hear this?

Mate of mine; the chap who did it is on twitter going on about it. Says the kid 'fronted up' to him so he 'taught him some respect'.

Pepe LeFrits

Username is @arsenal_away

Pretty unpleasant to see the amount of people on twitter congratulating him for punching the kid.

.jacksparrow.

As you can see from the arsenal thread,once you speak out against Wenger you get personally abused,which happend to me tonight.

Mr Blobby

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

As you can see from the arsenal thread,once you speak out against Wenger you get personally abused,which happend to me tonight.

You didn't get abused

Granted a lot of people disagreed with you.
Actually everyone did.

But they had good reason for it. You made up some stupid tactic that you wouldn't even use in Football Manager.

gnfnrhead

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

As you can see from the arsenal thread,once you speak out against Wenger you get personally abused,which happend to me tonight.

I only seen people disagree. No abuse.

.jacksparrow.

Someone called me clueless,which I think is abuse,anyway its done now.

.jacksparrow.

blobby360 wrote: »

You didn't get abused

Granted a lot of people disagreed with you.
Actually everyone did.

But they had good reason for it. You made up some stupid tactic that you wouldn't even use in Football Manager.

To actually try and kill a game off?that's a stupid tactic?righhhht...

Esse85

.jacksparrow. wrote: »

Someone called me clueless,which I think is abuse,anyway its done now.

Are you ok?