Are there any people who are finding it hard to enjoy this F1 season?

De Hipster

I say bring back the mayhem in the pits of drivers missing pit garage stop point, driving off with fuel hose attached & driving over mehanics...those were all the good bits!




Only kidding but I will miss the old pit lane antics from the true strategists...Brawny himself the master.

cashmni1

I agree, pit stops should include fuel. Otherwise the teams will have less to guess about the other teams strategies.
People who know very little about a sport call it boring. Same applies to most sports. How a motor enthusiast can find F1 boring, is just down lack of information in my view.
Not about the rules per se, but about the different cars, how they work differently, how pit stops can win or loose races, how the different team strategies come in to play and all the hype behind the drivers.
It really has a lot going on, behind the scenes and on the track. Not enough technical talk from the commentators, in my view.
Murray Walker was a disaster to listen to, I used to hate all the mistakes he used to make in the later years.

amacachi

Getting rid of fuel at pitstops is just going to lead to the best cars at the front and driving away, can't see how it'll improve the spectacle at all.

Slutmonkey57b

Fuel strategies are no longer the wildcard scenarios they were when they were first introduced. There's too much computing power goes into them and you know once the weights are declared who's going to finish where. No refuelling is going to make for an interesting comparison between frugal drivers like button and mad chargers like hamilton, perhaps. Or perhaps not.

cashmni1

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Fuel strategies are no longer the wildcard scenarios they were when they were first introduced. There's too much computing power goes into them and you know once the weights are declared who's going to finish where. No refuelling is going to make for an interesting comparison between frugal drivers like button and mad chargers like hamilton, perhaps. Or perhaps not.

True that.
I didn't think of it like that actually. But still, it's another variable thats taken out of the wining race strategy. 2 stops or three, first away off the grid and shorter stops?
I'm not sure if it will make the sport, or the spectacle, any better by removing the refueling.

amacachi

Having extremely short pitlanes so that pitstops don't cost much, so more people will be likely to have mental strategies might be a good idea.

All comes down to tyres after a while though.

vectra

amacachi wrote: »

Getting rid of fuel at pitstops is just going to lead to the best cars at the front and driving away, can't see how it'll improve the spectacle at all.

I dont know really.
Define "The Best Cars"
and why would the be driving away from the rest?

amacachi

vectra wrote: »

I dont know really.
Define "The Best Cars"
and why would the be driving away from the rest?

If there's no fuelloads during qualifying then the fastest cars will be at the front. Because they're the fastest they will drive away. At least with refueling etc at the moment it mixes the grid up a little bit.

vectra

amacachi wrote: »

If there's no fuelloads during qualifying then the fastest cars will be at the front. Because they're the fastest they will drive away. At least with refueling etc at the moment it mixes the grid up a little bit.

OK,
Nut
on the other hand
The most fuel efficiant car would be lighter as it would need less fuel than others.
Even though it may not be the best car, It could still quali well and run away being lighter at the start of the race.?
Yes??
No??

amacachi

vectra wrote: »

OK,
Nut
on the other hand
The most fuel efficiant car would be lighter as it would need less fuel than others.
Even though it may not be the best car, It could still quali well and run away being lighter at the start of the race.?
Yes??
No??

Can't see there being a big difference in fuel economy compared to the 80s when the engines were all different sizes, some turboed, some not etc etc. Then the talk of a spec engine, if that happens there's even less variation.

Go Harvey Go

cashmni1 wrote: »

Murray Walker was a disaster to listen to, I used to hate all the mistakes he used to make in the later years.

WHAT?!!!??!?!!?!?? :eek: :eek:

Murray did lose his way a little bit on ITV, but he was NEVER a disaster to listen to!

And he made mistakes even in the early years of F1 on the BBC in the early 80s.

You are of course entitled to your opinion about him, just as everyone else is, but without intending to sound mean or anything, you might find yourself in the minority here...

vectra

amacachi wrote: »

Can't see there being a big difference in fuel economy compared to the 80s when the engines were all different sizes, some turboed, some not etc etc. Then the talk of a spec engine, if that happens there's even less variation.

I guess.
But last year. Isnt that probably the main reason BMW were in the fight for a while? Most fuel efficiant engine on the grid?
Less fuel = lighter car = shorter pit stops ?

cashmni1

Go Harvey Go wrote: »

WHAT?!!!??!?!!?!?? :eek: :eek:

Murray did lose his way a little bit on ITV, but he was NEVER a disaster to listen to!

And he made mistakes even in the early years of F1 on the BBC in the early 80s.

You are of course entitled to your opinion about him, just as everyone else is, but without intending to sound mean or anything, you might find yourself in the minority here...

Yeah I know but it's just me really. I just thought the novelty of Murrays mistakes wore off after 1 season listening to him. When you were looking for information about the race, you had to depend on the co-commentator to correct Murrays mistakes.
Graet man I'm sure, but not for me.
looking @ the quali at the moment and Masa is hurt!!

thebman

Won't there still be pitstops for tyre changes though?

One tyre for the race would really punish those drivers that can't make their tyres last I guess if they are going to go down that route. Not having pitstops will stop over taking in the pits which is the way most races are run now it seems.

If a driver wants a position, he'll have to take it on the track.

Go Harvey Go

Are McLaren and Lewis Hamilton finally back?

I'm pretty sure almost no-one here will have been happy to see Hamilton win at the Hungaroring today - but I am. Not because I'm a diehard Lewis or McLaren fan or anything like that, but because, finally, they humbled both Brawn and Red Bull.

Raikkonen also humbled both teams by finishing second, while Kovalainen took McLaren's points tally for the race to 14 by coming home fifth. Of the Brawns and Red Bulls, only Button and Webber finished in the points - Webber was third, while Button was nearly a minute behind Hamilton in seventh.

It's probably too late now for McLaren to make a charge for the championships, but for the time being my enjoyment of this season has increased a bit.

And I hope Felipe Massa pulls through after what happened to him in qualifying - not only was it a freak accident but it was a dreadful one too, given that John Surtees' son lost his life in a similar situation just one week ago. Get well soon, Felipe.

vectra

Starting to enjoy it a bit more now that the playing field has gotten upset again

vincenzolorenzo

thebman wrote: »

If a driver wants a position, he'll have to take it on the track.

But thats the thing, its extremely difficult to do that unless you have a massive car advantage. Even with the rule changes this year a driver can't follow another car closely in the corners so unless he has much better straightline speed he can't get by. Even going gung ho isn't going to get him by, he'd have to have the car capable of doing it first. Also if we do start seeing drivers trying to overtake on track and throwing it up the inside and inevitably making contact the stewards are just going to start handing out more penalties. Te term 'racing incident' doesn't seem to be used in F1 any more at all. First bit of contact and bang, drive thru penalty, race pretty much over. Its a major disincentive to overtaking and unless the stewards calm down a bit we'll never see an improvement in overtaking.

cashmni1

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

But thats the thing, its extremely difficult to do that unless you have a massive car advantage. Even with the rule changes this year a driver can't follow another car closely in the corners so unless he has much better straightline speed he can't get by. Even going gung ho isn't going to get him by, he'd have to have the car capable of doing it first. Also if we do start seeing drivers trying to overtake on track and throwing it up the inside and inevitably making contact the stewards are just going to start handing out more penalties. Te term 'racing incident' doesn't seem to be used in F1 any more at all. First bit of contact and bang, drive thru penalty, race pretty much over. Its a major disincentive to overtaking and unless the stewards calm down a bit we'll never see an improvement in overtaking.

You have a point but, they have to be consistent also. I agree with you though, and think they are too strict but they seem to apply the already written rules too much these days. I was happy to see that Red bull didn't get a penalty for releasing Webber in the path of kimi yesterday.
I was surprised however that Renault got a suspension however. To me, that was a racing accident, a mistake by someone. Why should the whole team suffer for ones guy's mistake

thebman

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

But thats the thing, its extremely difficult to do that unless you have a massive car advantage. Even with the rule changes this year a driver can't follow another car closely in the corners so unless he has much better straightline speed he can't get by. Even going gung ho isn't going to get him by, he'd have to have the car capable of doing it first. Also if we do start seeing drivers trying to overtake on track and throwing it up the inside and inevitably making contact the stewards are just going to start handing out more penalties. Te term 'racing incident' doesn't seem to be used in F1 any more at all. First bit of contact and bang, drive thru penalty, race pretty much over. Its a major disincentive to overtaking and unless the stewards calm down a bit we'll never see an improvement in overtaking.

I agree they should be doing more to stop disruptive air for the cars behind so they can actually close in since there doesn't seem to be any other way.

There has to be another way to generate downforce without using wings that disrupt the air for the car behind. Possibly allow more ground effect generated down force and reduce wings.

vincenzolorenzo

I remember reading an interview with Jochen Rindt from 1969 or 70 and he was talking about the exact same thing - dirty air coming off the wings of the car in front and disrupting his car. he was saying that wings would make it harder to overtake, and that was 40 years ago!

EvilMonkey

LIGHTNING wrote: »

But in those days you would just wait a while as the entire wing assembly would usually fall off after a few laps

And they could still finish the race without it!

Biro

Pity to see McLaren back. Sick of the Ferrari/McLaren dominance that has been the case for 10 years or so, I hope Brawn can catch up a bit again! Although that Ferrari is still a bit of a disaster of a handler.
What was nice to see is Kimi joining the 2009 season! It was his first race of the year!
On the fuel thing, I think they should give the teams a set amount of fuel to use for the race and let them do what they like regarding engine designs and power output. Give them a limit of say 150kgs, and tell them you can have any sized engine you like, turbo or N/A, with no restriction on hp. But all you get is 150kgs of fuel. Then if some genious engineer designs a car that has 1500 hp and can last the race on that amount of fuel, the technology will filter down to road cars! And they can reduce the amount of fuel to limit the power.

Go Harvey Go

BMW's turn to pull out of F1 now:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8173865.stm

Go Harvey Go

Ficus wrote: »

With schumacher coming back to ferrari, i dare someone to say the rest of the season will be difficult to enjoy!!!!

Well, Schumacher's shock return will no doubt spice everything up, and even more so if he's at the front...

cashmni1

This is why F1 is such a great sport.
The money, tv rights and popularity across the globe has just been justified with the return of shumi. Tofosi will go buck mad now.
Pitty about BMW though. Alarming to see just how wrong they got it, with a good driver (RK that is)!

thebman

OMG this is massive can't wait.

Anyone think his meeting with Ferrari involved them talking about some horrible things happening at Ferrari if he didn't race.

Like management change or something. Not in a sinister way but in a the team isn't performing and we can't justify spending this budget and not winning and not having the publicity, will you race for us kind of way.

I'm not sure if anybody could leave the team they are with that much that they'd come out of retirement. I think Schumi was happy to go out at the top so I hope he comes back and wins the championship if even mathematically possible. I at least hope he wins races.

I was a bit annoyed by him winning all the time in previous years but he is the best the sport has seen and deserves to step out at the top of his game, a champion. I think this is what he wants.

Frank Bullitt

Was only thinking,how bad would it be for Button if Webber wins it this year and only wins one race to Jensons 6,ouch.

EvilMonkey

Gintonious wrote: »

Was only thinking,how bad would it be for Button if Webber wins it this year and only wins one race to Jensons 6,ouch.

Doesn't matter if that happens it means Brawn/Button will have a terrible second half of the season and wouldn't deserve the title.

I doubt Webber would win with only one win anyway.

vectra

Gintonious wrote: »

Was only thinking,how bad would it be for Button if Webber wins it this year and only wins one race to Jensons 6,ouch.

Would be bloody hilarious

DeVore

Delighted that Schumi is back and I have a bet with a mate of mine that he will podium at least once (my mate reckons not... and he's a ferrari supporter!)

BMW leaving is very worrying because the problem with F1 as I see it is that everyone wants to win and anything else is simply not acceptible at this level and with the amount of money being spent.

The simple truth is that this is a race and there can be only one winner. Someone must win and equally half the field must come in the lower half of the table. All of those teams have paid staggering amounts of money to advertise the fact that their cars arent as good as other manufacturers. Thats not good business and I cant see how ANY company can get sufficient profit from being involved in F1 to be honest...

Is the advertising REALLY going to make soooo many more people buy your car WHO WERENT GOING TO BUY IT OTHERWISE that the huge investment every year , year on year makes financial sense??

DeV.

amacachi

DeVore wrote: »

Delighted that Schumi is back and I have a bet with a mate of mine that he will podium at least once (my mate reckons not... and he's a ferrari supporter!)

BMW leaving is very worrying because the problem with F1 as I see it is that everyone wants to win and anything else is simply not acceptible at this level and with the amount of money being spent.

The simple truth is that this is a race and there can be only one winner. Someone must win and equally half the field must come in the lower half of the table. All of those teams have paid staggering amounts of money to advertise the fact that their cars arent as good as other manufacturers. Thats not good business and I cant see how ANY company can get sufficient profit from being involved in F1 to be honest...

Is the advertising REALLY going to make soooo many more people buy your car WHO WERENT GOING TO BUY IT OTHERWISE that the huge investment every year , year on year makes financial sense??

DeV.

He's coming back at the perfect time tbh, the Ferrari is just getting faster and faster. There's a few races (Singapore as an example) where the Brawns will be nowhere if they can't get temperature into their tyres, so there's a chance for another team to get up for the win. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Schumi win a race before Kimi.


This is the thing for me about the big manufacturers being in F1. While their spending seems massive, and it is, they get a lot of revenue from having corporate packages etc. for the races. The trouble with the manufacturers is that with them it comes down to some abstract number on a sheet of paper decided by an accountant. With independent teams they're there for the sport and the glory and if there's any way for them to get a car out there then they will.
Many people seem to love having the big companies in F1, makes it more prestigious or something, but I'm not one of them.
The other ironic thing about the advertising is just how many advertisements on ITV during their F1 coverage was for cars.

Go Harvey Go

Nuts, Schumacher's had to abort his comeback.

I guess with his neck not yet completely healed he didn't really have a choice, but it means that potential spark for this season won't occur now.

Mind you, it's given Luca Badoer a chance to break that long-standing points duck of his...

vectra

Go Harvey Go wrote: »

Nuts, Schumacher's had to abort his comeback.

I guess with his neck not yet completely healed he didn't really have a choice, but it means that potential spark for this season won't occur now.

Mind you, it's given Luca Badoer a chance to break that long-standing points duck of his...

Kimi is getting closer to the top step.. is that not spark enough?
Schumacher was past it anyway so should have never thought about returning
For god sake. The man is 40 up against guys half his age and double his agility.

enzo7

vectra wrote: »

Kimi is getting closer to the top step.. is that not spark enough?
Schumacher was past it anyway so should have never thought about returning
For god sake. The man is 40 up against guys half his age and double his agility.

Im persuming ur taking the piss now. Because not even you can actually belive a single word of your post. Kimi was only 2nd in budapest because the ferrari suited that circuit, very similar to monaco (A circuit you thought kimi wouldnt do well on:rolleyes:).And as you hav always stated on here kimi needs a "winning car" to win unlike schumacher and unfortunatly the ferrari isnt one this season. Schumacher past it are you serious the guy was born with a natural talent you dont loose that, you might loose your motivation or winning attitude like kimi did 2yrs ago that what i call past it. That is the biggest reason his loosing his ferrari seat to alonso. I never really understood why ferrari signed him in the first place and 3yr later ive still no clue tbh. The last time i checked half of 40 was 20 how old is kimi,alonso, button ect considering schumacher had more talent in his little finger than kimi 3yr ago and taking into account kimi isnt anywhere near where he was 2yrs its a very safe bet schumacher would hav wiped the floor of him. Bet your relieved about schueys neck injury ,now you can leave kimi up on the pedastel you hav him now for a few more mth, atleast till ferrari give him his p45.

vectra

enzo7 wrote: »

Im persuming ur taking the piss now. Because not even you can actually belive a single word of your post. Kimi was only 2nd in budapest because the ferrari suited that circuit, very similar to monaco (A circuit you thought kimi wouldnt do well on:rolleyes:).And as you hav always stated on here kimi needs a "winning car" to win unlike schumacher and unfortunatly the ferrari isnt one this season. Schumacher past it are you serious the guy was born with a natural talent you dont loose that, you might loose your motivation or winning attitude like kimi did 2yrs ago that what i call past it. That is the biggest reason his loosing his ferrari seat to alonso. I never really understood why ferrari signed him in the first place and 3yr later ive still no clue tbh. The last time i checked half of 40 was 20 how old is kimi,alonso, button ect considering schumacher had more talent in his little finger than kimi 3yr ago and taking into account kimi isnt anywhere near where he was 2yrs its a very safe bet schumacher would hav wiped the floor of him. Bet your relieved about schueys neck injury ,now you can leave kimi up on the pedastel you hav him now for a few more mth, atleast till ferrari give him his p45.

Couple of things there
You say this years car is not a winning car and Hungary suited it
How do you reckon Schuie would make it win.
Dribble to be honest
He is 40
you do lose the edge
he is up against young guns, and if my memory serves me correctly arounf 2003/2004 he did say he would retire if and when young chargers came along which was proven with Alonso.
Slapped in the face twice he was with the same fish. so to speak.

Maybe you dont know why Ferrari brought Kimi to them?
Nothing to do with him recaliming their crown in 2007 I suppose??
Just because he missed it last year and can do nothing about it this year you think he is history?

As for he getting his P45
All drivers will get that eventually.
But when is the question
another thing you know nothing about only from what you read.

enzo7

Schumacher doesnt need a winning car to win!!! thats why his a 7 times world champion and kimi is not. Ive no doubt schumacher would hav won a few races in the current car because his won in every car he has every driven. Schumacher maybe 12yrs older than kimi but his more drive and more hunguar to succeed than kimi ever had. He didnt retire because he was "past it" or was "afraid" of alonso. He retired simpley because he spent 16yr in f1 traveling the world away from his family and he just wanted to spend time at home ,go sking when he wanted hav a normal life. There is nothing strange about that most drivers end up like that. But of cource i know nothing except what i read:rolleyes:. Unlike you apparently who seems to hav some insight info on your "wonder boy" so are you going to tell us where his going to end up after ferrari are done with him, keeping alonsos seat warm. Oh and if you underperform for 2yrs then is most peoples eyes you are history.

vectra

enzo7 wrote: »

Schumacher doesnt need a winning car to win!!! .

Dont be acting stupid
How can a non winning car win

SouperComputer

vectra wrote: »

Kimi is getting closer to the top step.. is that not spark enough?
Schumacher was past it anyway so should have never thought about returning
For god sake. The man is 40 up against guys half his age and double his agility.

If Mansell can come back and "own" at 41, I'm sure Schumacher can do it at 40. I think you underestimate MS's fitness, neck aside I recon he's at least middle of the road in terms of fitness on the F1 grid.

vectra

SouperComputer wrote: »

If Mansell can come back and "own" at 41, I'm sure Schumacher can do it at 40. I think you underestimate MS's fitness, neck aside I recon he's at least middle of the road in terms of fitness on the F1 grid.

Competition is a lot closer now than it was back then

SouperComputer

vectra wrote: »

Competition is a lot closer now than it was back then

Subjective at best TBH.

vectra

SouperComputer wrote: »

Subjective at best TBH.

Remind me again what car Mansell drove and what cars could be considered as competitive enough to beat it?

enzo7

vectra wrote: »

Dont be acting stupid
How can a non winning car win

put schumacher in it

In_Toon

Go Harvey Go wrote: »

Before the 2009 Formula 1 season started I expected that it would be a great one - what with the aerodynamic changes to the cars and the reintroduction of slick tyres, potentially leading to more overtaking and possibly a more level playing field.

But in the first five races, Jenson Button and the new Brawn team have virtually swept all before them - and Ferrari, McLaren and Renault have been pretty much nowhere.

And there's been a whole load of bickering over things like the attempted change in deciding the drivers' championship, Brawn's rear diffuser, and the budget cap for all teams, as well as McLaren and Lewis Hamilton finding themselves in hot water at the Australian GP.

Consequently I have so far found myself unable to enjoy this season.

I've found this shift of power from Ferrari and McLaren to Brawn and teams like Red Bull and Toyota to be too sudden for my liking - and now I kind of miss having Ferrari and McLaren at the front of the grid. And I hate it when politics threaten to overshadow what's happening on the track.

I know some people are going to disagree with me, thinking "oh it's great that Brawn are doing so well and Ferrari and McLaren are doing crap" - but is there anyone out there who does feel the same as me?

I couldn't agree with you more.

Despite a resurgent mcLaren, I have found myself rather dissappointed with Brawn's early dominance and a serious lack of pace in other cars. I think that the introduction of all the new regulations for 09 were introduced too soon into the sport, and i would have preferred if they would have been gradually been introduced over the next 3 years because i believed that this year without all the new regulations, everything would have been more competitive towards the start of the new season.

I am personally looking forward to this weekends grand prix in valencia as with the intoduction of some new aero packages and the added element of a few resurgent teams(Ferrari, mcLaren, Toyota and event force india could be quite competitive), it is going to be very interesting, particularly in qualifying. However, am a huge critic of the valencia street circuit. i do not think it offers enough in terms of the excitement of monaco or the overtaking abillity of Australia, and has been a fruitless addition to the race calender to the loss of great circuits such as Canada or even a U.S circuit.

I am now greatly looking forward toward the end of the season, but in particular two circuits, Singapore and Abu Dabhi, which i hope will add some Flair and flavour to a rather dissappointing season so far.

Biro

In_Toon wrote: »

I couldn't agree with you more.

Despite a resurgent mcLaren, I have found myself rather dissappointed with Brawn's early dominance and a serious lack of pace in other cars. I think that the introduction of all the new regulations for 09 were introduced too soon into the sport, and i would have preferred if they would have been gradually been introduced over the next 3 years because i believed that this year without all the new regulations, everything would have been more competitive towards the start of the new season.

I am personally looking forward to this weekends grand prix in valencia as with the intoduction of some new aero packages and the added element of a few resurgent teams(Ferrari, mcLaren, Toyota and event force india could be quite competitive), it is going to be very interesting, particularly in qualifying. However, am a huge critic of the valencia street circuit. i do not think it offers enough in terms of the excitement of monaco or the overtaking abillity of Australia, and has been a fruitless addition to the race calender to the loss of great circuits such as Canada or even a U.S circuit.

I am now greatly looking forward toward the end of the season, but in particular two circuits, Singapore and Abu Dabhi, which i hope will add some Flair and flavour to a rather dissappointing season so far.

Singapore and Abu Dabhi are crap circuits. As is Bahrain, and all those new money ones.

BoardsRanger

Biro wrote: »

... Abu Dabhi are crap circuits..

How do you know?

amacachi

BoardsRanger wrote: »

How do you know?

Was just thinking that. Though it does seem to fit the exact same description as every other new track.

In_Toon

Biro wrote: »

Singapore and Abu Dabhi are crap circuits. As is Bahrain, and all those new money ones.

I dearly hope that you are wrong about Abu Dabhi. Due to it being installed as the last race, i hope that the circuit carries some surprises as in future years when everything gets a little more comptitive throughout the field it could hold some quite enticing races, Although no one will know anything much about the circuit until the first practice session.

I also think that you are wrong about singapore as it provided a huge twist in last years title race with Alonso winning.

Go Harvey Go

I've been at my uncle's house on Knockanore Mountain near Ballybunion in Kerry for the last few days, where an Internet connection is not possible - so it's only now that I'm giving my response to what took place in Valencia.

And Brawn are back on top - albeit through Barrichello rather than Button - after McLaren's pit-lane SNAFU, which I'm sure would have had many Lewis haters over the moon.

McLaren and Ferrari are still bouncing back, though, as shown by Raikkonen's third place and Kovalainen's fourth to go with Hamilton's second, while both Red Bulls failed to feature in the top eight.

One feels, though, that if Brawn win again at Spa this weekend, they'll have one hand on both championships...

delta720

In_Toon wrote: »

i would have preferred if they would have been gradually been introduced over the next 3 years because i believed that this year without all the new regulations, everything would have been more competitive towards the start of the new season.

How would you suggest the regulations could have been split up over 3 years? And how would that have resulted in the teams being closer?

I think we would have just had a dominant Ferrari and McLaren. This year the teams on lap times have been closer than ever, ever season is going to have 2 or 3 dominant teams. But this year we've seen Red Bull, Brawn, Toyota, McLaren, Williams and Ferrari all in the top 5 end of the grid. It's a very competative mid-field and now with Force India looking to score their first points and BMW looking slightly better the field is well mixed. Alot better than the usual predictable grid its been in other seasons.

Go Harvey Go

One of the better races of this season at Spa today, and Raikkonen's win and Fisichella's brilliant second in the Force India showed that there really is not very much between Brawn/Red Bull and the other teams now.

Even if Button hadn't been taken out on the first lap for his first DNF of the season, he probably still wouldn't have been prominent in the race, while Barrichello made a bad start and was fortunate to score two points for seventh, and quite unlike in Germany, a drive-through penalty proved costly for Webber.

Vettel did put in a good drive for his third place, while it was nice to see the BMW Saubers finishing fourth and fifth after what has gone before for them in 2009.

It's worth knowing too that Raikkonen was the sixth different winner in as many races.

One hopes that Monza in two weeks' time will be just as fascinating.