Libertas and a few issues with the Lisbon Treaty

AugustusMaximus

Can someone please confirm the views I have on the following.

Tax Harmonisation
The Lisbon Treaty allows the creation of the CCCBT which, if countries want to join it, will harmoise taxation rates accross member countries where these tax rates will skew the common market. Lisbertas claim this will force Ireland to raise its corporation tax rate from its present 12.5%. From what I can tell though, Ireland has a veto on joining the CCCBT and will in no way be forced to join this tax harmonisation group.

Self-Amending Treaties
From the way I read it, the Lisbon Treaty contains a clause where all previous treaties may be amended without needing a further new treaty. However, the only parts that may be amended is where no new competancies will be gained.

Where no new competancies are gained in any new treaty, no referendum is needed in any country. Hence, all this clause in the Lisbon Treaty will do is get rid of the need of drafting a brand new treaty where no new competancies will be gained by the EU. Libertas seem to be spouting that the EU will be able to gain all the new laws they want from this clause.

Scofflaw

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Can someone please confirm the views I have on the following.

Tax Harmonisation
The Lisbon Treaty allows the creation of the CCCBT which, if countries want to join it, will harmoise taxation rates accross member countries where these tax rates will skew the common market. Lisbertas claim this will force Ireland to raise its corporation tax rate from its present 12.5%. From what I can tell though, Ireland has a veto on joining the CCCBT and will in no way be forced to join this tax harmonisation group.

Actually:

1. the mechanisms necessary to create the CCTB were in Nice, not Lisbon - they formed part of the No side argument at the time, but back then we didn't find tax so compelling an issue.

2. CCTB doesn't affect taxation rates at all - it's about how the company income on which the tax is calculated is worked out, whereas the rate is set entirely by the individual countries.

3. We don't have to join any 'enhanced cooperation' group that does decide to use CCTB - and, despite the CCTB working group having been in operation since 2004, there is still no group of adopting countries.

4. If the such a group were formed, then it is only allowed to operate as long as its actions have no impact on countries that choose not to join it.

AugustusMaximus wrote: »

Self-Amending Treaties
From the way I read it, the Lisbon Treaty contains a clause where all previous treaties may be amended without needing a further new treaty. However, the only parts that may be amended is where no new competancies will be gained.

Where no new competancies are gained in any new treaty, no referendum is needed in any country. Hence, all this clause in the Lisbon Treaty will do is get rid of the need of drafting a brand new treaty where no new competancies will be gained by the EU. Libertas seem to be spouting that the EU will be able to gain all the new laws they want from this clause.

Slightly more than that, if any such amendment is found to impact our sovereignty in any way, we would still have to have a referendum to ratify the amendment. If the government felt the amendment might impact our sovereignty, they would probably play it safe and put it to referendum anyway.


cordially,
Scofflaw

AugustusMaximus

Scofflaw wrote: »

Actually:

1. the mechanisms necessary to create the CCTB were in Nice, not Lisbon - they formed part of the No side argument at the time, but back then we didn't find tax so compelling an issue.

2. CCTB doesn't affect taxation rates at all - it's about how the company income on which the tax is calculated is worked out, whereas the rate is set entirely by the individual countries.

3. We don't have to join any 'enhanced cooperation' group that does decide to use CCTB - and, despite the CCTB working group having been in operation since 2004, there is still no group of adopting countries.

4. If the such a group were formed, then it is only allowed to operate as long as its actions have no impact on countries that choose not to join it.



Slightly more than that, if any such amendment is found to impact our sovereignty in any way, we would still have to have a referendum to ratify the amendment. If the government felt the amendment might impact our sovereignty, they would probably play it safe and put it to referendum anyway.


cordially,
Scofflaw

Excellent. Thanks for the information.

BlitzKrieg

you are right in both areas.

alot of the issues libertas have seem to be with the government rather then the EU as alot of the issues depend on them (as it does at the moment anyway)

ah Scafflow got there first and as usual is the well of knowledge.

tonycascarino

Whatever about the merits of the Lisbon Treaty itself, the way it has been ratified leaves serious questions about democracy in Europe. France and Holland reject it? Grand, we'll drop the EU flag and anthem, then pass it without another referendum. The UK government promises a referendum, and when it become obvious it won't pass, we'll just drop that promise. Ireland votes no? Ah sure, have another go of it there lads so you can give us the 'right answer' the next time. It just doesn't set a great precedent by any means. Have the people who are running this Treaty given us a reason as to why they do not accept the will of the people as previously expressed??

Dinner

tonycascarino wrote: »

Whatever about the merits of the Lisbon Treaty itself, the way it has been ratified leaves serious questions about democracy in Europe.

According to each countries constitutional requirements?

Yeah I'm very worried.

Would you rather override the constitution of each country and force them to have a referendum?

tonycascarino wrote: »

Have the people who are running this Treaty given us a reason as to why they do not accept the will of the people as previously expressed??

The reason was made evident when surveys showed that many people voted no based on lies and bile spewed by Libertas and the like. Should people not be allowed to exercise their democratic right and change their mind once the lies have been cleared up?


It is also important to say that ratifying the Lisbon treaty is one of the governments policies, so they are well within their rights to run it again. Similarly, Sarkozy was elected partly on a platform of ratifying the treaty without a referendum.

conchubhar1

again surveys of select people

again - can would we be having it if it was voted through? (not possible but for the principle imagine it could be)

Dinner

conchubhar1 wrote: »

again surveys of select people

Care to elaborate? Were the surveys by, for example, the Irish Times and Eurobarometer rigged by only asking a particular type of voter? what type of voter were they?

EDIT:

On your second question, no we would probaby not be voting again had it passed. The reason being that it is government policy to pass it. Once passed, their policy has been satisfied.

Max Power1

conchubhar1 wrote: »

again - can would we be having it if it was voted through? (not possible but for the principle imagine it could be)

This is the bit that gets me.. the "ah sure have another go at that now". Whats the point of having a referendum, if our voice is going to be ignored??

:mad::mad::mad:

regards

MaxP

tonycascarino

Max Power1 wrote: »

This is the bit that gets me.. the "ah sure have another go at that now". Whats the point of having a referendum, if our voice is going to be ignored??

:mad::mad::mad:

regards

MaxP

Exactly Max. It seems a bit like a dictatorship to me, who will stop at nothing to get the 'right answer':(

conchubhar1

ah but ''more votes cant be a bad thing'' as stated on here before

laughable really

---

never said they were rigged or doctored

just they were surveys of 1000 people, from every corner of ireland and every social, religious etc group?

it gives a jist at best of voting paterns

zuroph

the people were misguided and wrong in their beliefs as to what they were voting for. both sides of the campaign are to blame for this, libertas and co for spewing lies, and the gov and co for not clearing it all up sooner. Re-running it is the only sane option, most of the no votes were for reasons that had no bearing on the treaty whatsoever.

cfcj

I for one have tried to read the treaty, which is a task if anything... basically you have all the other treaties with you to reference them at the same time. There is too much scare mongering, I'm of the belief 'when in doubt leave it out' It hasn't been properly explained even this time around. Plus just wanted to add that I think there is something very suspect about Declan Ganley...

conchubhar1

refcom and the eu websites are of a great help - in relation to reading and understanding the treaty

there are a lot of things suspect about ganley....

tonycascarino

In relation to Article 48 of the Treaty. Could someone explain please how can a self ammending European Treaty be good for any country???

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=135&Itemid=10

conchubhar1

it would have to be agreed by the dáil and the seanad in the case of ireland - or a referendum

afaik

View

tonycascarino wrote: »

In relation to Article 48 of the Treaty. Could someone explain please how can a self ammending European Treaty be good for any country???

http://www.lisbon-treaty.org/wcm/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=135&Itemid=10

There is no such thing as a self-amending European Treaty. Treaties don't rewrite themselves when you are not looking at them!

The suggestion is there will be two procedures of revising the EU Treaties:
i) the Ordinary one, and,
ii) the Simplified one.

Which of them do you have a problem with, and why?

conchubhar1

they both have to be ratified according to each countries process

in ireland dáil and seanad (or referendum?)

PopeBuckfastXVI

conchubhar1 wrote: »

they both have to be ratified according to each countries process

in ireland dáil and seanad (or referendum?)

Referendum where EU competency in relation to Irish national sovereignty is increased, Oireachtas otherwise, as per every other treaty.

conchubhar1

sound thats what i thought

we dont want a referendum ever year (or less) haha

Dinner

conchubhar1 wrote: »

---

never said they were rigged or doctored

just they were surveys of 1000 people, from every corner of ireland and every social, religious etc group?

it gives a jist at best of voting paterns

That's how statistics works! You decide on a sample size. In the case of Eurobarometer it was 2000 randomly selected people who were contacted by phone. The results are then correlated and weighted based on turnout etc. and lo and behold you end up with an accurate (to within a few % points) model of the whole countries reasons for voting the way they did. It is more than a jist.

K-9

Dinner wrote: »

That's how statistics works! You decide on a sample size. In the case of Eurobarometer it was 2000 randomly selected people who were contacted by phone. The results are then correlated and weighted based on turnout etc. and lo and behold you end up with an accurate (to within a few % points) model of the whole countries reasons for voting the way they did. It is more than a jist.

Unless people are suggesting every No voter should have been asked their specific reasons, I don't see a problem with this.

conchubhar1

no it gives a good overview to be used by the people trying to get it passed the 2nd time

but it is being used to day most no voters voted wrong, and were misinformed, bad bad no side bad......

knocking away all the legitimate reasons

Dinner

conchubhar1 wrote: »

no it gives a good overview to be used by the people trying to get it passed the 2nd time

but it is being used to day most no voters voted wrong, and were misinformed, bad bad no side bad......

knocking away all the legitimate reasons

No, it's statistics, it's maths, not opinion.


Oh, I give up. You're never ever gonna change your mind...

zuroph

conchubhar1 wrote: »

no it gives a good overview to be used by the people trying to get it passed the 2nd time

but it is being used to day most no voters voted wrong, and were misinformed, bad bad no side bad......

knocking away all the legitimate reasons

because those who voted for legitimate reasons were hugely in the minority.

conchubhar1

i doubt it

few people were dragged in by libertas crap - there role was so over hype its not even funny

protest vote is also thrown around - people just cant admit it got beaten end of.
trying to bolster your reasons for a second vote

i know what statistics are and how a poll works

K-9

conchubhar1 wrote: »

knocking away all the legitimate reasons

And that's a bad thing?

conchubhar1

yes, it is misinformation

i hope you just didnt grasp the point , because if that your view ill be close to getting banned on airing my views on that....

zuroph

conchubhar1 wrote: »

i doubt it

few people were dragged in by libertas crap - there role was so over hype its not even funny

protest vote is also thrown around - people just cant admit it got beaten end of.
trying to bolster your reasons for a second vote

i know what statistics are and how a poll works

nope, the exit polls and telephone surveys showed that people voted no and when asked their reasons listed the fake reasons given by libertas to vote no. very few people listed valid reasons.

K-9

conchubhar1 wrote: »

i doubt it

few people were dragged in by libertas crap - there role was so over hype its not even funny

protest vote is also thrown around - people just cant admit it got beaten end of.
trying to bolster your reasons for a second vote

i know what statistics are and how a poll works

I've never made an issue of the protest vote or the Anti EU Vote as these will always happen.

Libertas ran an effective campaign, the "Vote No if you don't understand it" probably being the most effective slogan of the whole campaign.

Hitman Actual

conchubhar1 wrote: »

i know what statistics are and how a poll works

You obviously don't. You keep ignoring the points people are making about how polls work. I posted the following in a different thread and you ignored it; will you answer it now?

"Polling may be an inexact science, but it's based on sound statistical sampling methods, and gives a good representation of the opinions of the people as a whole. For example, the Millward Brown Survey used a sample size of 2100 people from a wide demographic range (county, age, social class, etc). The margin of error for a 2100 sample size is +/-2.1%.

You seem to be disregarding the fact that such a poll gives a good representation of the opinions of the nation; if so, you need to give a good mathematical reason for such an opinion."