Alternative Energy Suppliers

The_Conductor

In 2007 the ESB had a turnover of over 3.5 billion, after tax profits of 432m and paid a 125 million dividend to the government.

So- its net after tax profit is almost 14.3% of its total turnover (and its pretax profit is just under 27%)..........

I can't find 2008 figures- but its a reasonable assumption that they are in the same ballpark.......

I.K.Brunel

smccarrick wrote: »

In 2007 the ESB had a turnover of over 3.5 billion, after tax profits of 432m and paid a 125 million dividend to the government.

So- its net after tax profit is almost 14.3% of its total turnover (and its pretax profit is just under 27%)..........

I can't find 2008 figures- but its a reasonable assumption that they are in the same ballpark.......

you're using figures related to the position of the parent company (ESB Group). The regulated Supply business is much smaller.

The_Conductor

I.K.Brunel wrote: »

you're using figures related to the position of the parent company (ESB Group). The regulated Supply business is much smaller.

I couldn't find a breakdown- they've even removed the annual report from their website.

To cut a long story short- the ESB are vastly profitable. Their business is the generation and supply of electricity (not just in Ireland). Their operating profit, as a group, in no manner reflects a 1.3% margin- its more akin to a 35% margin. As retail customers account for over 70% of the group turnover- its a reasonable assumption that a large portion of this profit is from this segment.

The ESB has been moving away from generation- they're now at less than 38% of the all-island market (and falling). So- logic dictates- that the margin is being made between the wholesale and retail price of electricity. They can produce or buy electricity cheaply, and sell it more expensively. Simple as.

I.K.Brunel

smccarrick wrote: »

I couldn't find a breakdown- they've even removed the annual report from their website. I found it on their website today.

To cut a long story short- the ESB are vastly profitable. Their business is the generation and supply of electricity (not just in Ireland). Their operating profit, as a group, in no manner reflects a 1.3% margin- its more akin to a 35% margin. As retail customers account for over 70% of the group turnover- its a reasonable assumption that a large portion of this profit is from this segment. Yes - ESB group makes very good profits - PAT in 2007 was €432m. However their business is much more than Generation & Supply on a regulated basis to Irish retail customers.

The 2007 accounts show that t/o from the Customer Supply division was €2,103m (about 58% of total). This is the regulated business that is only allowed a 1.3% margin (according to data on CER's website). It therefore only contributed about €25m to the Group's €432m PAT.

The ESB has been moving away from generation- they're now at less than 38% of the all-island market (and falling). So- logic dictates- that the margin is being made between the wholesale and retail price of electricity. They can produce or buy electricity cheaply, and sell it more expensively. Simple as. Most of ESB's profits are being made in areas other than the Supply business - many of them unregluated.

.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

I.K.Brunel wrote: »

. Most of ESB's profits are being made in areas other than the Supply business - many of them unregluated.

Most of ESB's profits come from the Networks Distribution business, which is heavily regulated. What unregulated areas do you mean? ESBI, with it's small contribution to the group profits? ESB Contracts, that can hardly make a profit at all?
The Networks business makes the lion's share of the profit but this is in a business which re-invests anything after dividend back into the refurbishment and development of the assets. The regulator allows a reasonable return on asset base which is the true measure of the return a company achieves. In ESB's case the return is just about sufficient, as no private sector company would opperate at the RAB allowed. They'd do better with assets invested as cash in the bank!

I.K.Brunel

ESB is actively involved in many unregulated businesses. Maybe they aren't all highly profitable but it all helps. As far as I am aware they have unregulated businesses in Supply (ESB Independant Energy), generation (ESB Independant Generation - Synergyn & Coolkeeragh), telecoms, wind farms, computing, engineering & management consultancy, power plant construction & operations (Pakistan, Tiblisi, UK, Spain, Malaysia, etc.).
The Networks business in regulated and will always be so, and the regulator allows the operator to make a reasonable return. I heard that most of the €432m profit came from 'windfall' carbon credits i.e. at the generation end of the buiness which is no longer subject to price regulation. and this was the source of the €300m rebate ESB gave back to the entire market last Jan. all the other generators kept quiet and pocketed the monies.

All very uninteresting stuff. I want to know how BG, as an electricity supplier competing against a regulated margin of 1.3%, are managing to fund a discount of over 10%.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

At the risk of straying off topic ESB Networks made the profit from Duos charges based on a regulated RAB. What you heard about windfall carbon credits is nonsense.
Anyway you seem to be ignoring the points made on how BG can make a profit. They buy/produce wholesale and cut their margins for retail. ESB Supply can't select customers by choosing only those who pay be Direct Debit or offer additional incentives on rates to major customers. It's all a mess.

I.K.Brunel

Colby Stale Creek wrote: »

. What you heard about windfall carbon credits is nonsense.
quote]

Here's what the ESB Chief Executive told a joint Oireachtas Committee on 10th Dec 2008 in response to a question on carbon profits:
"On the emissions trading system, the position is that after 2012 we must all buy whatever is needed. We will not be in receipt of windfall profits. This is an issue throughout Europe. Governments did not realise the credits would be so valuable. In Ireland the value of windfall profits to the electricity sector is somewhat in excess of €200 million, and the ESB is in receipt of slightly more than half of that amount. The value to ESB of carbon credits at present is approximately €110 million per annum. The ESB believes it has returned a good deal more than that through its efficiency and what we have done in other areas. Although other Governments throughout Europe have found it difficult to recall credits having allocated them, we have returned them and we do not see why others in the Irish market should not do the same. The knock-on effect is a reduction in the price of electricity for every customer. We return €300 million to the regulator, which reduces the network charges applicable to everyone. All customers regardless of whether they receive power from ESB receive that reduction. That is the way in which it is passed on. The network charges are set at a rate according to a five year review agreement between the ESB and the regulator. The €300 million and the €87 million that could result in the sale of our assets is subtracted from the network charges. This is how all customers benefit and how it feeds into the price of electricity"

"The issue of how carbon credits have been allocated and handled is being reviewed by the Commission on Taxation. We await the results of that review. It is not really an issue for us as we have returned the credits."

The_Conductor

Ok- lets get the knux of all of this. The ESB is massively profitable. The average Irish residential or business user pays the 3rd highest amount for electricity in the EU. Surely join the dots- everyone is overpaying for electricity- and the ESB, Bord Gais, Airtricity etc are milking it.

You can argue to your hearts content about which parts of the ESB empire are generating their massive profits- but at the end of the day- every Irish residential customer or business customer is getting ripped off.

bungler

stefano67 wrote: »

Look at your last ESB bill and check price per 1kWh.
In June, price dropped from 16.40 to 14.55 cents on my bill wiht domestic tariff. This is approx 11-12 % drop.

Now compare prices offered by Bord Gais and their so called big discounts.

https://www.thebigswitch.ie/how-much-can-i-save.htm

ESB rate: 16.51

Bord Gais:
- min 10 % discounts: 14.86 (more expensiv ethan my current ESb rate)
- 12% disocunt: 14.53 (0.02 cent cheaper than ESB, almost zero % difference)
- 14 % discount: approx 2% cheaper than ESB.

Then below in smaller fonts:
- VAT is included at 13.5%
- In all cases a standing charge of €104.40 which we pay to ESB Networks is included in the calculations.
- Public Service Obligation rebate applies and all customers will receive a credit of €2.17 per month end.
*The discount stated is off the applicable ESB domestic tariff unit rate and applies to the first year's consumption. Thereafter the Bord Gáis Energy standard discount tariff will apply which is guaranteed to be at least 5% below ESB unit rates for years two and three of this offer. The standing charge is not discounted. Terms and conditions apply.
1first year saving based on a customer presently on a Urban 24 hour tariff and an average annual consumption of 5,591kWh


So, there's no 14% discount, but only 2 % max. Additionally, in Terms and Conditions Bord Gais sais Distribution Service charges will be paid to ESB by Bord Gais and this will be included in the bill. This will cost maybe higher than is currently with ESB. Also, standing charge on my ESB bill is 25.20 cents per day, so will be 92 EUR per year and Bord Gais mentioned 104.40 EUR (a bit higher).
All in all, price of the 1kwh is not much different on the market, but marketing tricks showed illusion fo 14% discount. But they try to hide Distribution Services by ESB that are independent from Bord gais and may be higher when you switch.

i got my bill and i am receiving the full 14% discount and so is my brother, have you actually gotten your bill yet? it clearly says 14% discount and whe i work it in ESB prices its 14% dearer and i have tripled checked this and check with bord gais.

also in my business i am getting 10% off ESB rates and ESB were charging me 0.1899 and when i moved to bord gais they gave me 0.1709

1899 - 1709 x 100 / 1899 = 10%

maybe i am reading it all wrong but i am just trying to see if im reading everything wrong and that i am not actually not getting any discount?

Kotek Besar

Bord Gáis can feck off. I get my electricity from Airtricity and my gas from Flo Gas.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

benifa wrote: »

Bord Gáis can feck off. I get my electricity from Airtricity and my gas from Flo Gas.

And your point is?

Kotek Besar

Colby Stale Creek wrote: »

And your point is?

Bord Gáis and I are not friends. That is all.

I.K.Brunel

smccarrick wrote: »

Ok- lets get the knux of all of this. The ESB is massively profitable. The average Irish residential or business user pays the 3rd highest amount for electricity in the EU. Surely join the dots- everyone is overpaying for electricity- and the ESB, Bord Gais, Airtricity etc are milking it.

You can argue to your hearts content about which parts of the ESB empire are generating their massive profits- but at the end of the day- every Irish residential customer or business customer is getting ripped off.

there are reasons why Irish prices are higher than in many other european countries and it's not because the ESB, BG, etc are "milking it". It's because:

• we're on an island with very little interconnection so we are basically self-sufficient in terms of generation
• our generation fuel mix is predominantly carbon based (oil/gas/coal) and very strongly influenced by world price movements.
• our storage capacity for such fuels is limited
• over 90% of Ireland's electricity is genrated using carbon fuels and carbon prices must be paid on all of this
• much of interconnected Europe can avail of nuclear & hydro based generation which are immune to fluctuations in world price for carbon fuels
• the Government has, for the most part, not interfered with the pricing system as has happened in the likes of Spain & France where prices are
• Ireland's network charges tend to be higher than many other european countires due to the disperse nature of our population
• and to a much smaller extent the taxation regime can have a bit of an impact - e.g. 13.5% VAT on energy in ROI; 5% in UK/NI

Antrim_Man

Right, I'm not reading this whole thread. For those that have been following it, who is the cheapest supplier?

The_Conductor

Antrim_Man wrote: »

Right, I'm not reading this whole thread. For those that have been following it, who is the cheapest supplier?

Airtricity- it would appear.

rameire

i would say bord gais.
its in the thread somewhere

Kotek Besar

At the time when Bord Gáis and Airtricity started selling electricity to domestic customers, I seem to remember that Bord Gáis claimed to be 14% cheaper than the ESB and Airtricity claimed to be 13% than the ESB.

Personally, I went with Airtricity over Bord Gáis largely because Airtricity claim that their electricity comes from 70% renewal sources (or so I recall..).

I.K.Brunel

benifa wrote: »

At the time when Bord Gáis and Airtricity started selling electricity to domestic customers, I seem to remember that Bord Gáis claimed to be 14% cheaper than the ESB and Airtricity claimed to be 13% than the ESB.

Personally, I went with Airtricity over Bord Gáis largely because Airtricity claim that their electricity comes from 70% renewal sources (or so I recall..).

The electricity used in your house comes from the same sources as the electricity used by your neighbours - Airtricity's claim to be providing from renewable sources is a bit of a marketing fallacy.
Where did your electricity come from before you switched to Airtricity? Where does it come from now, and is there a difference simply because you now get your bill from Airtricity?
If you decide tonight to put on an extra few lights do you imagine that Airtricity will respond by cranking up a wind turbine to deliver the additional units? most likely some gas turbine will have to produce the additional units.

dahamsta

Airtricity's marketing is deceptive and they should be taken to task for this, but that post isn't 100% clear on the situation either. The energy Airtricity generates uses renewables. Yes, that energy feeds into the grid we all source from, but it still makes them "more renewable".

It's a pity we can't do last mile like telecomms, I hate the idea of taking energy from the interconnector. They can cod themselved with the "clean energy" line all they want, spent nuclear fuel is as dirty as it gets, and I don't want any part of it.

adam

The_Conductor

dahamsta wrote: »

Airtricity's marketing is deceptive and they should be taken to task for this, but that post isn't 100% clear on the situation either. Airtricity generates that percentage of it's electrictity using renewables, which makes them "more renewable".

The point being made is that the electricity coming in my door is identical to that coming in my next door neighbours door- irrespective of which company we buy it from. When you consider this- if you personally want to do something for the environment- that is applicable to 'you' as a person- you're better off finding a nice spot and planting a tree- or making an effort to count food miles- or better still growing your own fruit and veg.

Airtricity's advertising does play on the sensibilities of some people who like to imagine they are 'environmentally conscious'- and unless they actually ask detailed questions- they are quite simply making a charitable donation towards the environment- they are most certainly not getting 'green' electricity in their homes (or if they are- it is only a small portion of their supplied power).

dahamsta

With respect smcarrick, I understand the point being made and I'm sick of hearing it because it's as deceptive as Airticity's ads.

I've tidied my post up a little, it doesn't seem to have been clear enough.

Kotek Besar

I.K.Brunel wrote: »

The electricity used in your house comes from the same sources as the electricity used by your neighbours - Airtricity's claim to be providing from renewable sources is a bit of a marketing fallacy.
Where did your electricity come from before you switched to Airtricity? Where does it come from now, and is there a difference simply because you now get your bill from Airtricity?
If you decide tonight to put on an extra few lights do you imagine that Airtricity will respond by cranking up a wind turbine to deliver the additional units? most likely some gas turbine will have to produce the additional units.

Jesus - so glad you told me! There was me thinking the elves at Airtricity were building more windmills when I bought that big TV. Phew, can relax now.

D'Peoples Voice

foggy_lad wrote: »

people must remember that the bill levelling thing could leave you with an end of year bill shock of thousands if they get their estimates wrong!

Just to add to thia, that you can ring up and refuse bill levelling - I did and they had no problem taking me off it.
By the way, ESB take estimates every three months on behalf of Airtricity, so not sure how they cold get the estimates wrong. Oh and people can submit a meter reading whenever they like.

I.K.Brunel

I haven't moved from ESB, yet.

I've heard rumours that Airtricity has just increased its prices for existing customers, but is still offering a discount for new customers.

Have any of you switchers got an increase or are you still in receipt of a discount?
Are you now going to pay more than the latest ESB price?
If you still have a discount is it against the old or the new ESB price?

Thanks.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

D'Peoples Voice wrote: »

By the way, ESB take estimates every three months on behalf of Airtricity

Just for accuracy: ESB Networks read the meters for all the Supply companies on a tw0-monthly basis. There are some estimates but again they are for the 2 month billing period - not every three months.

dahamsta

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how Airtricity works, but I haven't recieved a bill or seen a DD payment out to them since June, I assume something is wrong? I've emailed them via their own control panel and directly to the email address, but they seem to be taking the BT line on customer service too. So, should I have received a bill since then?

adam

I.K.Brunel

dahamsta wrote: »

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how Airtricity works, but I haven't recieved a bill or seen a DD payment out to them since June, I assume something is wrong? I've emailed them via their own control panel and directly to the email address, but they seem to be taking the BT line on customer service too. So, should I have received a bill since then?

adam

something is wrong - you should have received a bill in late Aug/early September and should be anticipating another around now. Keep after them!

dahamsta

Thanks IK Brunel. I'll try CCing every damned email address I can find on their website, see how they like them apples.

rgfuller

dahamsta wrote: »

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding how Airtricity works, but I haven't recieved a bill or seen a DD payment out to them since June, I assume something is wrong? I've emailed them via their own control panel and directly to the email address, but they seem to be taking the BT line on customer service too. So, should I have received a bill since then?

adam

This happened to me too, I had been put on a 6 monthly billing cycle instead of the 2 monthly one I'd applied for - their mistake - I also raised this as an issue using the website and they did ring me about it to sort it out - about 4 weeks after logging the problem.

They switched me to the proper billing cycle and took an on-the-spot customer reading of the meter to calculate the 4.5 month bill stating that if I wanted to spread payments I could - but it wasn't too much being the summer so I let it DD out the full amount, and am now expecting a bill next month.