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Alternative Energy Suppliers

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    #782
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Threads merged

    Resulting megathread stuck

    dudara


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    #783
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    discostu1 wrote: »
    ...any opinions as to whether they will do so


    Your cynicism comes through loud and clear. :)

    Of course they will. They have been waiting for this for years!


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    #784
    Max Power1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,272 ✭✭✭✭Max Power1


    discostu1 wrote: »
    Ok, sorry if I upset you just make it simple are you saying ESB will be allowed compete in all sectores i.e No fudge

    ESB will be allowed compete in certain areas, to me a fudge

    No change ESB continue to operate in a restricted manner until they lose more customers. Again to me a fudge
    Matt Cooper apparently is coveringthe story about now so might be worth a listen
    Similar to Bord Gais's ringfenced supply businesses, ESB supply cannot be allowed to compete in an un restricted manner until all/most advantages to being the incumbent monopoly supplier. In one large commercial market for example, BGES had to reach a supply level of 30% (ie competitive suppliers had 70% of the business) before the CER even started to remove its restrictions (they are still not fully unrestricted AFAIK)


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    #785
    discostu1
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭discostu1


    Your cynicism comes through loud and clear. smile.gif

    Of course they will. They have been waiting for this for years!

    If I appear cynical having seen the Irish Nationwide figures who could blame me. I would LOVE if ESB was deregulated, I am all in favour of real competiton,but my point is BGE are then saying they may have to leave the market, I dont have a particularly big problem with that, but I know Fine Gael intent to sell BGE its in their New Era policy document, and I would assume the FFers are of the same mind. I presume the value of the company drops if it effectively loses money on the customers it has or it loses the customers it has aquired. Plus both ESB and Airticity are supposedly about to enter the Gas Market. If you are DEFINITIVELY saying that both domestic and business customers will have full deregulation by the end of the year that is not a fudge and I withdraw my cynisism :):)


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    #786
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    Max Power1 wrote: »
    Similar to Bord Gais's ringfenced supply businesses, ESB supply cannot be allowed to compete in an un restricted manner until all/most advantages to being the incumbent monopoly supplier. In one large commercial market for example, BGES had to reach a supply level of 30% (ie competitive suppliers had 70% of the business) before the CER even started to remove its restrictions (they are still not fully unrestricted AFAIK)

    Whether you think it cannot be allowed or not it is happening in October.


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    #787
    discostu1
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭discostu1


    Whether you think it cannot be allowed or not it is happening in October.

    It would be great as it would drive down my bill further BUT todate I have seen no independent backup links saying that the domestic customer will be de regulated. I presume IF it is to happen there must be a press release/announcement any one care to guess when this will be. If true Mullins and Airtricity must stamp their feet and threaten withdrawal I presume. It would take a brave regulator maybe your right you wait for a brave regulator and then two come along together. Sorry I just dont see it but show me the link/evidence and I'm right with ya


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    #788
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    discostu1 wrote: »
    It would be great as it would drive down my bill further BUT todate I have seen no independent backup links saying that the domestic customer will be de regulated. I presume IF it is to happen there must be a press release/announcement any one care to guess when this will be. If true Mullins and Airtricity must stamp their feet and threaten withdrawal I presume. It would take a brave regulator maybe your right you wait for a brave regulator and then two come along together. Sorry I just dont see it but show me the link/evidence and I'm right with ya



    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article7100974.ece


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    #789
    discostu1
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭discostu1


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle7100974.ece

    I'm not being argumentative but I cant see this on the CER website I would have thought ESB would be out banging drums and jumping round the garden or at least driving noislessly around in their shiney new Electric cars. According to the article it will be confirmed this week...Given that Mullins' wife works for the Sunday Business post as far as I recall and he did a lovely soft piece about how BGE are now in favour of putting stuff on the "never never" his words so you will be able to put your insulation etc "on the bill" doesnt sound to me like CER will buckle and de regulate or that Johnny boy is going anywhere fast


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    #790
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    http://www.taxation.ie/2010/04/energy-price-war/

    http://kehoe.ie/blog/index.php/2010/04/energy-costs/

    http://www.cer.ie/en/consultations.aspx?type=electricity&article=8ce1df45-31c8-4460-9ab1-93de232a6df3


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    #791
    discostu1
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭discostu1


    THanks for that

    Very interesting I wouldnt be hugely influenced by taxation.ie or kehoe
    CER is interesting its a consultation paper but see pge 15, my bold

    The final decision on the criteria for deregulation coming out of the roadmap
    consultation and the subsequent competition review may result in all segments of
    the market deregulated either this October or in the not too distant future.

    The more I think about this was it a pre emptive by BGE??Let ESB in and we are out of here??


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    #792
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    discostu1 wrote: »
    THanks for that

    Very interesting I wouldnt be hugely influenced by taxation.ie or kehoe
    CER is interesting its a consultation paper but see pge 15, my bold

    The final decision on the criteria for deregulation coming out of the roadmap
    consultation and the subsequent competition review may result in all segments of
    the market deregulated either this October or in the not too distant future.

    The more I think about this was it a pre emptive by BGE??Let ESB in and we are out of here??


    Read page 43 to 48 for the conclusions of the report


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    #793
    discostu1
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭discostu1


    Hi lads I posted this moring but it seemed to be lost in the maintenance of BOards.ie

    Basically what I heard this morning is that ESB has to lose a further 17% of its customers, also give an undertaking that it changes its name only then will they be deregulated,
    When asked when this may take place the CER said that this may happen in the NEAR future. I am assuming this will be be Oct but presumably dependent on the number of customers moving.


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    #794
    discostu1
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭discostu1


    Sorry meant to ask, what if BGE walk off the pitch after an esb price drop and say even half of their customers come back to ESBNua (copyright :)) presumably their market share goes back OVER the 60% are they then reregulated .
    Actually I think that this might slow down the losses from ESB meaning that it will take longer to deregulate them


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    #795
    IrishTonyO
    Registered Users Posts: 2,321 ✭✭✭IrishTonyO


    http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0421/esb.html


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    #796
    discostu1
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭discostu1


    Yep so they are NOT deregulated until they lose another 17% which may or may not be in the near future. I would predict year end or early next year,I heard from a mate of mine that Business accounts are to be deregulated in Oct regardless of how many go or come back to ESB. Any thoughts on what happens if their market share Increases above the 60%


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    #797
    ytpe2r5bxkn0c1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32,688 ✭✭✭✭ytpe2r5bxkn0c1


    The nonsense is that ESB Customer Supply (who have been working for months on a name change) must drop to 60% and can then undercut the others, build the customer base back up and not fall foul of regulation. Why not let them undercut now to simply hold on to customers raher than move them out and then back in - all costly to operate. The great thing is that the customer gains now. We have been screwed by regulation forcing ESB not to reduce prices to bring others into the market. BGE will probably drop the domestic market when ESB undercut them - so much for competition!
    Maybe everybody should now move from ESB to reduce their market share, get the New ESB price reductions and then move back to the cheaper ESB.


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    #798
    discostu1
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭discostu1


    The nonsense is that ESB Customer Supply (who have been working for months on a name change) must drop to 60% and can then undercut the others, build the customer base back up and not fall foul of regulation. Why not let them undercut now to simply hold on to customers raher than move them out and then back in - all costly to operate. The great thing is that the customer gains now. We have been screwed by regulation forcing ESB not to reduce prices to bring others into the market. BGE will probably drop the domestic market when ESB undercut them - so much for competition!
    Maybe everybody should now move from ESB to reduce their market share, get the New ESB price reductions and then move back to the cheaper ESB
    .

    Even though I'm with BGE I do see the logic of what your saying, I reckon the country is just too small for big competition. Also If ESB have to change their name, THAT is big bobs, I was involved in such a name change a few years ago, everything from stationary to advertising the new brand it cost millions.
    I wonder will Airtricity try and "buy" the BGE customer base off them, equally with ESB and Airtricity moving into the gas market BGE COULD end up as the big loser here


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    #799
    I.K.Brunel
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭I.K.Brunel


    Colby Stale Creek wrote: »
    The nonsense is that ESB Customer Supply (who have been working for months on a name change) must drop to 60% and can then undercut the others, build the customer base back up and not fall foul of regulation. Why not let them undercut now to simply hold on to customers raher than move them out and then back in - all costly to operate. The great thing is that the customer gains now. We have been screwed by regulation forcing ESB not to reduce prices to bring others into the market. BGE will probably drop the domestic market when ESB undercut them - so much for competition!
    Maybe everybody should now move from ESB to reduce their market share, get the New ESB price reductions and then move back to the cheaper ESB.

    CER's intention is that no Supplier, not just ESB Customer Supply, should have more than 60% of the Domestic market share (50% for Business market). These percentages are based on an All Island (RoI & NI) assessment basis, as ultimately that's going to be the size of the competitive market.
    BGE won't drop their customer base. They have recently invested hundreds of millions in generation assets -a new gas turbine plant they are just completing in Cork harbour and a portfolio of windfarms bought from SWS. With the current wholesale market structure it is vital to have a customer base as take-off for the generation output & to provide an income stream to finance the capital repayments assiociated with the investment in generation.
    Hopefully regulation will begin to focus more on customer protection and allow competitive forces to regulate the wholesale and retail markets.


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    #800
    dotsman
    Registered Users Posts: 3,636 ✭✭✭dotsman


    Colby Stale Creek wrote: »
    The nonsense is that ESB Customer Supply (who have been working for months on a name change) must drop to 60% and can then undercut the others, build the customer base back up and not fall foul of regulation. Why not let them undercut now to simply hold on to customers raher than move them out and then back in - all costly to operate. The great thing is that the customer gains now. We have been screwed by regulation forcing ESB not to reduce prices to bring others into the market. BGE will probably drop the domestic market when ESB undercut them - so much for competition!
    Maybe everybody should now move from ESB to reduce their market share, get the New ESB price reductions and then move back to the cheaper ESB.

    The reason why they must drop below 60% before they will be allowed compete is in the long-term interests of the consumer. If they (or any near-monopoly player in a market) is allowed compete freely, they need merely undercut the tiny player, force them out of business, and then go back to raising prices again.

    BGE and Airtricity must each have a significant market share to be able to compete profitably.

    If you look at the disaster that is the telecommunications market; Eircom, for too long (and still today) dictates the market, with all the small players merely following. Remember Smart Telecom? They were very cheap, but required over 100,000 customers to break even. Unfortunately, they never got that amount (due to customer inertia and Eircom's hostile practices) and collapsed. Thus, we have one of the worst, yet one of the most expensive, broadband services in the western world.

    The regulator must ensure that ESB does not become another Eircom. Nobody, not even ESB, would benefit from that.


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    #801
    discostu1
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭discostu1


    Interesting discussion, your man Tutty said tonight on I think Matt Cooper that if ESB went above 60% they would be re regulated.
    Re Smart telcoms, well maybe Google Murtagh+Smart telecoms for some historical references.
    Not sure I agree that a generation company needs a supply arm there are plenty examples world wide of stand alone generators. Plus I would assume since BGEs plant is either span new or "green" they should be able to generate at a much cheapr cost than the incumbent,and I thought that green energy was given a sort of preference in terms of buying all other things being equal.So most of their profits should come from that. I dont think that there is massive profits in supplying your average domestic for any supplier. But since ESB have to supply everyone they are presumably carrying a lot of " slow" payers, BGE and Airtricity earmarked the direct debit/ email type customer and fair play thats how I moved but it is interesting that in the middle of probably the worst economic crisis most of us can remember the two biggest Suppliers of energy in the country are both semi states.Will we end up with Publicly owned banks and privately owned utilities


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    #802
    Mute
    Closed Accounts Posts: 181 ✭✭Mute


    Dont forget people that "Competition" in the electricity market was driven by a PD idealogy that competition is good full stop.

    Regardless of economy of scale

    Heres a couple of facts!

    2001 ESB supplied one of the cheapest prices of electricity in Europe

    2002 PD driven Ideology regarding competition in Energy Markets

    2003 Attract new entrants by increasing tarriffs

    2007 Electricity prices increase by 67% (FACT)

    2008-10 Electricity prices in Ireland in top 3 dearest

    Reference: ESRI OCED "Through the looking glass" B Ogle


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    #803
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Mute wrote: »
    Reference: ESRI OCED "Through the looking glass" B Ogle

    With no disrespect intended- just how much faith would you put in any material authored by Mr. B Ogle? He has an agenda longer than my arm.......


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    #804
    discostu1
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭discostu1


    Absolutely agree about Ogle BUT

    http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2009/01/08/electricity-cost-puzzles/
    This was written by Alan Matthews Professor of European Agricultural Policy in the Department of Economics, School of Social Sciences and Philosophy and Director of the Institute for International Integration Studies at Trinity College Dublin, Ireland. He is Vice-President and President-Elect of the European Association of Agricultural Economists in the period 2008-2011. Not exactly your raving pinko leftie
    I wasnt really aware of what Mute said, I have a recollection of a 10 year price freeze by ESB but that could be years back. I am someone who likes to see supporting comment and a quick google on the basis of Mutes comments (which to be honest I doubted) gave us this

    see below
    What puzzles me, however, is that Irish electricity costs were not always particularly high relative to our trading partners. In fact, a chart (figure 3) in the DETE paper shows that electricity prices for industrial users in Ireland were well below those paid in the EU-15 for most of the 1990s, and were still no higher on average than in the rest of the EU-15 in 2002-2004. Yet in 2008 Ireland was the second most expensive country for industrial users in the EU-15. According to IBEC, Irish companies have seen industrial electricity prices rise by 70% since 2000.
    It may, of course, be sheer coincidence that liberalisation of the Irish electricity market began in 2000 with partial market opening and achieved full market opening in February 2005, a period which saw the beginning of the dramatic increase in electricity prices. There was also a sharp increase in transmission investment from around €30 million annually in the 1990s to around €100 million annually in the 2000s.
    It may, of course, be sheer coincidence that liberalisation of the Irish electricity market began in 2000 with partial market opening and achieved full market opening in February 2005, a period which saw the beginning of the dramatic increase in electricity prices. There was also a sharp increase in transmission investment from around €30 million annually in the 1990s to around €100 million annually in the 2000s.


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    #805
    I.K.Brunel
    Registered Users Posts: 42 ✭I.K.Brunel


    discostu1 wrote: »
    Interesting discussion, your man Tutty said tonight on I think Matt Cooper that if ESB went above 60% they would be re regulated.
    Re Smart telcoms, well maybe Google Murtagh+Smart telecoms for some historical references.
    Not sure I agree that a generation company needs a supply arm there are plenty examples world wide of stand alone generators. Plus I would assume since BGEs plant is either span new or "green" they should be able to generate at a much cheapr cost than the incumbent,and I thought that green energy was given a sort of preference in terms of buying all other things being equal.So most of their profits should come from that. I dont think that there is massive profits in supplying your average domestic for any supplier. But since ESB have to supply everyone they are presumably carrying a lot of " slow" payers, BGE and Airtricity earmarked the direct debit/ email type customer and fair play thats how I moved but it is interesting that in the middle of probably the worst economic crisis most of us can remember the two biggest Suppliers of energy in the country are both semi states.Will we end up with Publicly owned banks and privately owned utilities

    Just a few comments on your observations....

    Yes, there may be plenty of examples of standalone generators elsewhere, but the market structures here in Ireland are such that the least risk position is to be present at both ends of the market (i.e. wholesale & retail).
    No particular form of generation is given preference in the wholesale market. Basically each generation station is required to bid into the pool on the basis of their short run marginal costs, and if dispatched all receive the price bid by the highest generator on the dispatch list (by half hour).
    The retail market doesn't deliver 'massive profits' but does provide steady income. Typically the average householder consumes about €850 worth of electricity in a year, and of that probably no more than €50/5% is profit.

    Good observation on the two semi-states.


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    #806
    Guillaume
    Registered Users Posts: 76 ✭✭Guillaume


    I switched at the end of January from ESB to Board Gais Electricity in the hope, as advertised many, many times, to decrease my electricity bill.

    I received yesterday my first bill from BG (after insisting to get it) : 500 euros for 2 months. :D

    I smile now to keep it easy. But in 3 years and half with ESB, I never received such a huge bill ! :eek: The biggest was 350, during the deep winter period January, February.

    It is like i nearly doubled my electricity consumption since last year and the year before, which is not the case. While I know we went trough a tough winter, i wonder IF switching to BG was a good idea.

    I am looking forward my next bill, because if it is the same problem, i will go back to ESB ! :confused:

    What do you reckon ? What is your experience of switching to BG ?


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    #807
    Ste.phen
    Registered Users Posts: 2,808 ✭✭✭Ste.phen


    This has come up a few times, mostly it's been because people have switched from having some estimated bills, to having one definite bill, not sure if this is what happened to you, but the pattern seems to be

    ESB Bill 2 bills ago: estimated, was cheaper than it should have been due to estimate
    ESB Bill 1 bill ago: estimated, was cheaper than it should have been due to estimate
    Bord Gáis bill now: taken from meter and includes some of the electricity used over the previous 2 bills, and the current period.


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    #808
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,490 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    The bill is valid as its clear you had estimated one's previously


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    #809
    flower tattoo
    Registered Users Posts: 553 ✭✭✭flower tattoo


    my first bord gais bill was higher because it took them 31/2 months to send it out. Its definitely been lower for the first year but now i think its creeping back up.


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    #810
    dudara
    Registered Users Posts: 33,518 ✭✭✭✭dudara


    Threads merged

    dudara


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    #811
    discostu1
    Registered Users Posts: 466 ✭✭discostu1


    I was looking at the Airtricity website the other day as I may be moving from BGE and saw this, my bold

    https://my.airtricity.com/osu/roido
    Terms and conditions apply. % discount and equivalent free weeks based on comparison to ESB unit rates until 31.12.10.
    Only available to new customers until 31.03.10.     Click here for more details

    I rang and asked what it meant, and didnt get a clear reply I was told the 31.03.10 is a typo and should read 31.03.11 and it would be changed immediately that was about 4 days ago.
    anyway I had clicked on where it says CLick here and saw this my bold again

    % discount and equivalent free weeks based on comparison to regulated ESB unit rates until 31/03/11. Offer only available to new customers switching between 01/04/10 and 30/06/10. Fuel mix comparision carried out annually by CER and is subject to change. Click here for further information.

    I asked what would the offer be if I signed up after 30/06/10 but was told they didnt know but that the offer would be "good" are they thinking of lessening the offer my year with BGE will be up shortly wondering what others think


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