what happens to a noun following noun

pog it

Can't get to the bottom of this, soon aI think I have, I find something to contradict it.

Okay, looking at for example teach ceoil, and scoil cheoil, I figured the adjective acting ceol in scoil cheoil got a séimhiu (h) because scoil is feminine. And I figured the 'i' went in because it's genitive...
So I thought that with two nouns coming together, the second gets the genitive and also gets aspirated if following a feminine noun. So a mix of adjective rules and genitive change..

But then I came across bosca chiste... cake box, and I can't work out why there is a 'h' (séimhiu) chiste, yet with teach ceoil, no séimhiu. Bosca is masculine also.

I can't seem to find the answer to this

Micilin Muc

pog it wrote: »

Can't get to the bottom of this, soon aI think I have, I find something to contradict it.

Okay, looking at for example teach ceoil, and scoil cheoil, I figured the adjective acting ceol in scoil cheoil got a séimhiu (h) because scoil is feminine. And I figured the 'i' went in because it's genitive...
So I thought that with two nouns coming together, the second gets the genitive and also gets aspirated if following a feminine noun. So a mix of adjective rules and genitive change..

But then I came across bosca chiste... cake box, and I can't work out why there is a 'h' (séimhiu) chiste, yet with teach ceoil, no séimhiu. Bosca is masculine also.

What's the context of the sentence? And what's the source?

pog it

Well teach ceoil is name of venue somewhere and scoil cheoil in dictionary also, I don't know how correct teach ceoil is but teach pobail is in the dictionary and that doesn't have a séimhiu either so teach ceoil seems to have been written correctly.

I've tried all the grammar books. I understand scoil cheoil (school of music) so therefore you're using the genitive.. but teach ceoil, or teach pobail, well you're slenderizing the end of the second word, and there is no séimhiu, so it looks like a mix of genitive and adjective séimhiu rules.. but then bosca chiste.. maybe bosca chiste is wrong? I thought i took it down from the dictionary and now i don't see it there

conchubhar1

not sure

but irish has lots of exceptions so thats probaly one of them - or could be northern way of genitive?

Micilin Muc

What dictionary? It's definitely not in Foclóir Uí Dhónaill. I'd say 'bosca chíste' is wrong.

The only time that would be right is if you'd be saying 'bosca chíste Sheáin' or another similar definite noun.

pog it

Thanks doodes, it is looking like bosca chiste is wrong. No idea where I saw it now.. and yeah maybe it's a canuinti thing.

the good news- I found out the reasoning behind teach ceoil and scoil cheoil and yep it's down to when one noun follows after another to describe the former in some way (i.e. acting as an adjective), then the second noun goes into the genitive and gets a séimhiu according to the gender of the first noun.. so teach being masculine gets no séimhiu and scoil gets the séimhiu as it's feminine. So it's a mix of adjective-séimhiu rule and genitive.
That's for the singular. A little more complicated with the plural form.

Ah.. back to easy vocabulary with me for a bit

MathsManiac

pog it wrote: »

I've tried all the grammar books.

Have you checked out Leabhar Gramadaí Gaeilge by Nollaig Mac Congáil?
Pp 58-61 deals with this issue quite comprehensively, I think. (It's section 7 of "Séimhiúar thúslitir ainmfhocail")

pog it

I did see that alright but I was confused about masculine versus feminine and then teach chiste threw me off course.
I usually just use christian brothers and mac murchaidh and then today I went rummaging through 'Réchursa Gramadai' and it's just that more detailed than MacCongail. On page 98 of Réchursa in case anyone wants to get more info.

Múinteoir

Bosca chíste (with a séimhiú) seems wrong to me. Bosca is not feminine, so there is no grammatical justification for leniting (putting a 'h' in) císte after it. Where was this written?

Eriu

It's called the tuiseal ginideach. Each word belongs to a declension (na Díoclaonadh) and this governs how the word is changed.

pog it

Yeah I'm aware the second noun goes into the genitive. What I didn't know was that the rules (similar to adjectives) with regards séimhiu apply also.
Also, I posted that after I saw 'bosca chiste' as the seimhiu in chiste (don't have fada on the 'i') threw me as it didn't correspond to the rules.
But I have since learned that nouns can change gender depending on the Gaeltacht/dialect!

Thanks though

conchubhar1

i dont know if this image will be helpful but hey

check the attachment


g = gutaí
c = consan
s =letter s
d/t = letters d and t

that is the letters the word starts with

bain - feminine
fir - masculine

so i say and write down - t- h hh tt and then fill out that grid and work off that


whoops - the dashes means the word is not changed in the genitive singular - the whole thing is just singular

stwidgie

pog it wrote: »

Thanks doodes, it is looking like bosca chiste is wrong. No idea where I saw it now.. and yeah maybe it's a canuinti thing.

the good news- I found out the reasoning behind teach ceoil and scoil cheoil and yep it's down to when one noun follows after another to describe the former in some way (i.e. acting as an adjective), then the second noun goes into the genitive and gets a séimhiu according to the gender of the first noun.. so teach being masculine gets no séimhiu and scoil gets the séimhiu as it's feminine. So it's a mix of adjective-séimhiu rule and genitive.
That's for the singular. A little more complicated with the plural form.

Ah.. back to easy vocabulary with me for a bit

I'm so glad you looked into this. It's been bothering me in the background for a long time.

I have to confess that I used to use the online spellchecker spellweb.com to help me decide on things like this. Fortunately, my top two examples seem to come out right according to your explanation:

about 5,920 for "grúpa ceoil"
about 1,980 for "grúpa cheoil"

about 549 for "uirlis ceoil"
about 754 for "uirlis cheoil"

GRMA