Bad timing for Sinn Fein?

mike65

Update two charged with IRA membership.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0512/northernbank.html

Joey the lips

mike65 wrote: »

Update two charged with IRA membership.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0512/northernbank.html

would you bet €10 to the SVP says they will be dropped but keep it up it suits fianna fail to constantly link sinn fein to the IRA.

In your eyes they never go away and believe it or not people with this attitude do more for there popularity than anybody in sinn fein or the IRA.


Why? History has a way of making roses from nettles!

Dr Galen

are people seriously suggesting here that the Gardai are acting in collusion with Fianna Fail/government to have these men arrested to make Sinn Fein look bad ahead of the elections?

MikeC101

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

are people seriously suggesting here that the Gardai are acting in collusion with Fianna Fail/government to have these men arrested to make Sinn Fein look bad ahead of the elections?

Well you have to admit it is a lot easier to cover your ears and yell at people "It's Fianna Fail! They're behind this! You only believe this because you love Fianna Fail" than trying to think critically about the matter.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy blaming FF for things as much as the next guy, but this is a ridiculous stretch.

There's a mentality among core party supporters (of all parties) that their party can do no wrong, it's always someone elses fault. Selection bias at work I suppose, it's a frightening thing to see in action.

Joey the lips

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

are people seriously suggesting here that the Gardai are acting in collusion with Fianna Fail/government to have these men arrested to make Sinn Fein look bad ahead of the elections?

Watch this space, people only being charged now! this brought down the northern assembly in guess what year.

If you stick here long enough someone will convice you gerry adams is running as pope! thats how daft the non factual evidence has gotten.

oh and before someone says it lads being charged means nothing. it happens as a norm under the prevention of terrorism act!

Dr Galen

Joey the lips wrote: »

Watch this space, people only being charged now! this brought down the northern assembly in guess what year.

If you stick here long enough someone will convice you gerry adams is running as pope! thats how daft the non factual evidence has gotten.

oh and before someone says it lads being charged means nothing. it happens as a norm under the prevention of terrorism act!

i'm not sure i follow you here Joey.....was that a yes?

FTA69

MikeC101 wrote: »

Based on the people I know who vote for, and are members of (one is a councillor) Sinn Fein there seems to be some truth in it, at least in the areas I'm familiar with. While I haven't done extensive research on it, it does seem to hold up fairly well in my area.

Good for you, I spent my entire teenage years involved in that organisation and as such I am fully aware of those who constitute its membership. Are there eejits who would espouse support for "the Ra" and all that bollocks? Of course there are, all organisations will attract eejits of one hue or another. What I am saying is that these type of people are very rarely members of the party, they couldn't be f*cked coming to meetings and wouldn't be seen in a million years out canvassing, leafleting, at a protest etc. Neither do they form a core support base, the core support are simply normal, often blue-collar people in working-class areas. The vast majority of these people support Sinn Féin because of thier local community work and the perception they represent the marginalised working class. These people are too busy working and worrying about to give a sh*t about "the Ra" or "Brits Out".

The fact a Republican function or whatever may attract a number of foolish big-mouths doesn't really reflect anything other than the fact some fools like to listen to cheesy rebel music.

However, dismissing that with a claim of "ignorant stereotyping" is a nice and easy way to to finish off an argument without any need for factual input on your behalf.

As opposed to what? You're factual input? All you have to contend is that you know a few people who support Sinn Féin etc, hardly "factual input" like. I'm simply warning against believeing in or perpetuating stereotypes, that's all.

MM,

are people seriously suggesting here that the Gardai are acting in collusion with Fianna Fail/government to have these men arrested to make Sinn Fein look bad ahead of the elections?

They've done it before like, but I doubt this is a case of them attempting to scupper Sinn Féin. It probably won't even impact the party that much to tell you the truth.

rsynnott

Joey the lips wrote: »

Delighted someone else logical saw this! always happens every year! and guess what there will be no proof or something... Remember this brought down stormont years ago and still there was no proof, remember denis donaldson!No proof I can go on big fat yawn!!!!

Its blatent establishment electioneering and its sad but true it still goes on.

I could sit down and list the whole political theory behind it all but I have no doubt there is a gobsh1te waiting to tell me I am daft and they provide no proof to refute my facts!

Roll on June Fianna Fail is fcuked thank god!!!!

So, erm, should the police simply ignore criminals who happen to be aligned with political parties?

Dr Galen

FTA69 wrote: »

MM,



They've done it before like, but I doubt this is a case of them attempting to scupper Sinn Féin. It probably won't even impact the party that much to tell you the truth.

i certainly wouldn't try and argue that government and security forces collusion has taken place. we know it has, and indeed I'd be of the opinion that more evidence of this nature will emerge in time.

but to even suspect that this might be the case, in today's society, is a bit too CT for my liking.

MikeC101

FTA69 wrote: »

Good for you, I spent my entire teenage years involved in that organisation and as such I am fully aware of those who constitute its membership. Are there eejits who would espouse support for "the Ra" and all that bollocks? Of course there are, all organisations will attract eejits of one hue or another. What I am saying is that these type of people are very rarely members of the party, they couldn't be f*cked coming to meetings and wouldn't be seen in a million years out canvassing, leafleting, at a protest etc. Neither do they form a core support base, the core support are simply normal, often blue-collar people in working-class areas. The vast majority of these people support Sinn Féin because of thier local community work and the perception they represent the marginalised working class. These people are too busy working and worrying about to give a sh*t about "the Ra" or "Brits Out".

The fact a Republican function or whatever may attract a number of foolish big-mouths doesn't really reflect anything other than the fact some fools like to listen to cheesy rebel music.

As opposed to what? You're factual input? All you have to contend is that you know a few people who support Sinn Féin etc, hardly "factual input" like. I'm simply warning against believeing in or perpetuating stereotypes, that's all.

In my opinion dismissing something someone says as an "ignorant stereotype" is a lazy way of arguing and an underhand way of trying to call the poster ignorant. At no point did I claim people in Celtic jerseys were Sinn Feins core element, I merely said some of their support is of that ilk. As someone who has been involved with the party for so long, I'd be of the opinion that you have a bias in trying to present it in the best light possible.

MikeC101

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

i certainly wouldn't try and argue that government and security forces collusion has taken place. we know it has, and indeed I'd be of the opinion that more evidence of this nature will emerge in time.

but to even suspect that this might be the case, in today's society, is a bit too CT for my liking.

Watch your quoting there MM - they weren't my words.

Joey the lips

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

i'm not sure i follow you here Joey.....was that a yes?

That was a yes bob!

Dr Galen

MikeC101 wrote: »

Watch your quoting there MM - they weren't my words.

apologies MikeC101, that was my mistake. Delete key obviously decided to stop working, certainly wasn't me not really paying enough attention

They were definitely not your words.

Dr Galen

Joey the lips wrote: »

That was a yes bob!

ok and is there anything to back up, what is quite a serious allegation there Joey?

cos if your ever proven to be right, then thats a fundamental problem with the nature of our state, our government and the democracy.

Turner

It was the DPP who decided that these men were to be charged.

Not the Gardai, or the government.

The Gardai only collected the facts and presented them to the DPP's office.

Liam Byrne

Bambi wrote: »

I demand figures on sinn fein members being tried or convicted on "official" business in the last calendar year

Some hope, Bambi! They'd probably say that it wasn't "official" or "sanctioned" :rolleyes:

+1 on the Gardai going after corrupt FFers, though - let's treat ALL scum the same way...

djpbarry

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

are people seriously suggesting here that the Gardai are acting in collusion with Fianna Fail/government to have these men arrested to make Sinn Fein look bad ahead of the elections?

Indeed; Sinn Féin are more than capable of making themselves look bad without assistance from anyone.

FTA69

MikeC101 wrote: »

In my opinion dismissing something someone says as an "ignorant stereotype" is a lazy way of arguing and an underhand way of trying to call the poster ignorant.

You're entitled to your opinion, all I said was that the notion of Republicans or Sinn Féin voters being boorish, nationalistic eejits was an ignorant stereotype, an ignorant stereotype that you yourself said "there was some truth to."

At no point did I claim people in Celtic jerseys were Sinn Feins core element, I merely said some of their support is of that ilk.

And I outlined that 99% of the time these people aren't really supporters at all as they very rarely join the party or do anything for it. Half of the crowd shouting "up the Ra" in the pub wouldn't even buy a newspaper off you. Neither do these people tend to vote. The fact someone writes "IRA" on a pub jacks wall or whatever doesn't necessarily make them a "supporter".

As someone who has been involved with the party for so long, I'd be of the opinion that you have a bias in trying to present it in the best light possible.

I'd be of the opinion that your opinion is nonsense considering I have zero time for Sinn Féin these days, I wouldn't vote for them at all. However, I did spend enough time in that organisation to know what I'm talking about.

Souljacker

I doubt it, it's nothing new. Anyone who votes for SF must first suspend their morality.

Their party line is that it was right for the PIRA to kidnap a mother of 10, torture and murder her, hide her body and label her a traitor for over 30 years and refuse to tell her children where they dumped her body because she went outside her home to try and give first aid to a teenage British soldier shot dead by and provo sniper.

Members of SF are involved in robbery and money laundering? I doubt anyone in Ireland would be surprised, members in the hierarchy of SF have been involved in much worse.

MikeC101

FTA69 wrote: »

MikeC101 wrote: »

You're entitled to your opinion, all I said was that the notion of Republicans or Sinn Féin voters being boorish, nationalistic eejits was an ignorant stereotype, an ignorant stereotype that you yourself said "there was some truth to."

Fair enough. I think you made a big leap from if you interpreted "some of their support" as being the same as painting all SF supporters as boorish nationalistic eejits.
But there IS some truth to it - it's a fact that some of their support are the Celtic jersey wearing eejits who like scrawling slogans on cubicle doors. I'd consider it being ignorant of the facts to think otherwise. Whether they make up a large number or even vote much, I don't know.

FTA69 wrote: »

And I outlined that 99% of the time these people aren't really supporters at all as they very rarely join the party or do anything for it. Half of the crowd shouting "up the Ra" in the pub wouldn't even buy a newspaper off you. Neither do these people tend to vote. The fact someone writes "IRA" on a pub jacks wall or whatever doesn't necessarily make them a "supporter".

99% - I suppose you've figures to prove this :rolleyes:
To be honest if we're starting to play semantics about what defines a "supporter", I'm out of this debate. For me, I'd consider someone espousing to hold SF in high esteem, whether they vote for them or not, as a supporter. Though I don't know how you're so sure none of these people vote for SF ?

FTA69 wrote: »

I'd be of the opinion that your opinion is nonsense considering I have zero time for Sinn Féin these days, I wouldn't vote for them at all. However, I did spend enough time in that organisation to know what I'm talking about.

Fair enough, glad to hear that.

MikeC101

Having re-read some of my posts, apologies if I've caused any offense, may have gone over the top on a few things. Usually I'm able to debate rationally, when SF are involved I tend to lose my sense of perspective.

For the record, I find them a morally reprehensible party, and don't understand how anyone in the South can justify voting for them, but that's another debate for another time.

spank_inferno

the timing of these arrests arent relevent to be honest.

The fact that so many people within Sinn Fein seem to be morally bankrupt is clearly the main problem.

Their supporters here should cop on to the fact that whether arrests happen before an election, after one, Christmas day or doomsday, the fact that your party's ethics have for too long been in the gutter is the real problem.

Till you fix that you will never have electoral progress in the Rep of Ireland.

****

That said there would be nothing I'd love more than to see all the other bent councillors and politicans in this country of all parties lifted for the crimes of corruption & 'me feinism' the perpetrate against this nation every day

Exile 1798

Souljacker wrote: »

I doubt it, it's nothing new. Anyone who votes for SF must first suspend their morality.

Their party line is that it was right for the PIRA to kidnap a mother of 10, torture and murder her, hide her body and label her a traitor for over 30 years and refuse to tell her children where they dumped her body because she went outside her home to try and give first aid to a teenage British soldier shot dead by and provo sniper.

Every sentence in that second paragraph is a falsehood.

Quite an achievement.

lostexpectation

mike65 wrote: »

Two republicans, one of whom has strong SF connections have been arrested and are due to be charged today with laundering proceeds from the Northern Bank robbery. Both are Munster men. Will this have any measurable impact on SF candidates in the forthcoming elections?

I know the OP is suposed to have an opinion but I'm not sure if I do have one regarding impact. It should but will it?

Story here

they are being charged with membership of the ira not with money laundering

i think your lie shows your opinion.

Joey the lips

Mystik Monkey wrote: »

ok and is there anything to back up, what is quite a serious allegation there Joey?

cos if your ever proven to be right, then thats a fundamental problem with the nature of our state, our government and the democracy.

I was waitng for that.... Read the dublin monaghan [EMAIL="b@mbings"]b@mbings[/EMAIL] by don mullen he has a very interesting slant on it! No doubt he is in Sinn Fein although he has no link to the republician cause in any way! But you dont need to read the book just look at what happened with the McBrearthys in Donegal..... Collusion right through the ranks! And as for a fundamental problem the biggest problem in this state, its closed doors!

djpbarry wrote: »

Indeed; Sinn Féin are more than capable of making themselves look bad without assistance from anyone.

When I read this quote I though I was in after hours! It seems everybody on boards can speculate even a moderator. Politics is getting void of political fact and discussion

MikeC101 wrote: »

Having re-read some of my posts, apologies if I've caused any offense, may have gone over the top on a few things. Usually I'm able to debate rationally, when SF are involved I tend to lose my sense of perspective.

For the record, I find them a morally reprehensible party, and don't understand how anyone in the South can justify voting for them, but that's another debate for another time.

Best thing you and your non factual rantings have actually said! For the record that was obvious!

Erin Go Brath

Another day another SF bashing thread.

Good to see you guys are clearly worried about the electoral threat posed by SF in the upcoming elections.

Our man in Havana

There is certainly no threat in Ireland East. Usual SF sacrificial lamb is running again.

Erin Go Brath

Theres no sacrifical lambs running for SF. SF have the big boys rattled especially in Dublin and NorthWest. Should be competitive in the South and a definite seat in the 6 counties. The East is probably the worst chance for a SF seat but two good up and coming candidates have put themselves forward and are expected to do well.

Our man in Havana

First mistake, running 2 candidates in a no hoper constituency. I doubt they will get half a quota between them.

Dublin and NorthWest

Well those are SF's largest support bases, Along the border and council house dwellers in disadvantaged Dublin. No surprise there.

irishgrover

So the general consensus to the OP seems to be, (regardless of political persuasion, and legitimacy or otherwise of the arrests)....

It's happened before, will probably happen again, doesn't really surprise anyone and probably won't have much of an impact on election outcomes...?