"Public servants to receive pay hikes worth €250m"

redsteveireland

Did anyone else see this story today and feel slighty pee'd off with the government lying through their teeth???

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/public-servants-to-receive-pay-hikes-worth-250m-410421.html

Dob74

Wonder if the pay rise will come through right before the election?
Which may just be enough to prevent massive FF loses. Make them medium FF loses.
I wonder?

smelltheglove

I find it ridiculous how this government are constantly going back on their word, the sooner they are out the better!

ixoy

Ah glad I finally got a figure on this. I asked about this ages ago - how much would pay increments cost and whether there should be a freeze on them. Given the 250m quoted, yes - there certainly should be. It will certainly remove some of the sting felt by the pension levy which should mollify them somewhat but really the government should have put the whole thing on pause.

unichick

Where I work we received an increment last month and it does not cover the cost of the pension levy. This was an agreement with the unions in order for outsiders to be allowed apply for positions. Since then jobs have been advertised and 2,500 applicants have applied for each one so no chance of promotion ever. If they freeze the increment we are screwed.

Riskymove

I am surprised that people find this new information..as far as I can see its lazy journalism by the Indo as this issue has been mentioned many times on boards and elsewhere in recent times...

just a few things to clarify with regard to comments thus far


1. pay scales are the basic structure of public servants, they always have been. it is based on the idea of gaining experience and thus being more better at your job. If there was only one pay level for a grade, a new entrant would bepaid the same as someone many years in the job.

This is the public service equivalence of experienced private workers seeking a rise/new contract etc based on experience etc.


2. the actual pay rises (i,.e. the national pay agreement increases) have been scrapped..thus the Govt are not "lying" or "going back on their word" (for once;)) No one ever claimed increments would be stopped; we saw recently the difficulties in changing exisiting structures (TDs long-service increments)

3. Dob74 - people get increments based on the day they started job, it wont be everyone at once. Believe me there is no way its going to change current attitudes

4. Ixoy - the levies are based on your gross pay so if pay goes up levy goes up, albeit that you should still be up a bit.

5. from my experience of increments is about €30 extra in a pay check; thats just for context not to belittle the amount!

6. technically you must meet performance standards to get an increment, its not automatic; although in practice its a rare thing to be stopped an increment.

ixoy

I'm also surprised that people are suprised - it's why I questioned it ages ago. I'd be interested to see if that 250m cost does include the additional pension levy raised (if not we could deduct a certain amount).

I know the theory behind it and all but let's face facts - we can't afford it. As there's no new entrants then it should be (in theory) easier to bring in a freeze to increments. Obviously it would seem a bit unfair in some ways but it works out relatively fair if applied across the board (except for those one rung from the top).

AFAIK the percentage increase is better at lower levels - in the region of 5-6%. It decreases, as a %, the longer your service so it should help out those at the bottom most (in the CS anyway). It won't wipe out the levy but you'll be taking more home - sure it's less than you had prior to the pension levy but an increase in these times is still pretty good (as is my own pay freeze for context).

blondie7

Dob74 wrote: »

Wonder if the pay rise will come through right before the election?
Which may just be enough to prevent massive FF loses. Make them medium FF loses.
I wonder?

how about you actually read the article there ya sack

BroomBurner

Riskymove wrote: »

I am surprised that people find this new information..as far as I can see its lazy journalism by the Indo as this issue has been mentioned many times on boards and elsewhere in recent times...

just a few things to clarify with regard to comments thus far


1. pay scales are the basic structure of public servants, they always have been. it is based on the idea of gaining experience and thus being more better at your job. If there was only one pay level for a grade, a new entrant would bepaid the same as someone many years in the job.

This is the public service equivalence of experienced private workers seeking a rise/new contract etc based on experience etc.


2. the actual pay rises (i,.e. the national pay agreement increases) have been scrapped..thus the Govt are not "lying" or "going back on their word" (for once;)) No one ever claimed increments would be stopped; we saw recently the difficulties in changing exisiting structures (TDs long-service increments)

3. Dob74 - people get increments based on the day they started job, it wont be everyone at once. Believe me there is no way its going to change current attitudes

4. Ixoy - the levies are based on your gross pay so if pay goes up levy goes up, albeit that you should still be up a bit.

5. from my experience of increments is about €30 extra in a pay check; thats just for context not to belittle the amount!

6. technically you must meet performance standards to get an increment, its not automatic; although in practice its a rare thing to be stopped an increment.

Excellent post.

jmayo

Riskymove wrote: »

I am surprised that people find this new information..as far as I can see its lazy journalism by the Indo as this issue has been mentioned many times on boards and elsewhere in recent times...

just a few things to clarify with regard to comments thus far

1. pay scales are the basic structure of public servants, they always have been. it is based on the idea of gaining experience and thus being more better at your job. If there was only one pay level for a grade, a new entrant would bepaid the same as someone many years in the job.


This is the public service equivalence of experienced private workers seeking a rise/new contract etc based on experience etc.


6. technically you must meet performance standards to get an increment, its not automatic; although in practice its a rare thing to be stopped an increment.

The big difference you will find in private sector is that workers will not get a rise or a new contract with increased terms, no matter how long they have been in the job, if times are tough and revenues are not coming in.
In fact the crazy thing is, private sector workers are actually getting decreases.

So much for current government expenditure outweighing revenues
Funny old country ain't it.

BTW I would be interested in knowing exactly the performance criteria necessary to get the increments.
Does turning up for work suffice ?
Sorry that wouldn't apply to HSE workers I guess :rolleyes:

blondie7 wrote: »

how about you actually read the article there ya sack

Nice contribution for your first post :rolleyes:

oscarBravo

blondie7 wrote: »

how about you actually read the article there ya sack

How about you read the charter?

blondie7

jmayo wrote: »

BTW I would be interested in knowing exactly the performance criteria necessary to get the increments.
Does turning up for work suffice ?
Sorry that wouldn't apply to HSE workers I guess :rolleyes:

the performance criteria depends on punctuality, sick leave. your ability to actually do the job your being employed to do!!!!!!!!!!!!! i no plenty of people last year who didnt recieve there increments because they werent working to a high enough standard!!!!!


Nice contribution for your first post :rolleyes:

people stop giving out about public servants, ye made the choice to work for the private sector nobody forced ye into it!!

oscarBravo

blondie7 wrote: »

people stop giving out about public servants, ye made the choice to work for the private sector nobody forced ye into it!!

I'm not clear why having voluntarily chosen to work in the private sector disqualifies someone from criticising aspects of the public sector. If you think the criticism is unfair, please feel free to explain why.

jmayo

blondie7 wrote: »

people stop giving out about public servants, ye made the choice to work for the private sector nobody forced ye into it!!

True nobody forced me to work in private sector, but they are forcing me to pay for a generally overpaid, inefficient, irresponsible, incompetent, almost unsackable, pampered public sector.

See the difference ? I bet you won't :rolleyes:

BTW we can't all work in public sector.
If we did we would have Soviet communism and we all know how well that worked

Now before you get your knickers in a twist, I am not labelling every single public sector worker as above, but my God as a whole it does describe a fair amount.

As an aside just heard on radio Dublin is going to have an electable Lord Mayor, with guess what a salary similar to government minister.
And I suppose an office staff, advisors, pr staff, etc, etc to go with the job.
Just what we need more added expense :rolleyes:

MikeC101

What riles me is the severe lack of accountability displayed by the public sector. The HSE now predict they will lose an extra €50 million this year, that they "didn't realise" would happen. And what happens? Absolutely nothing. If this happened in a company in the private sector heads would roll. In the public sector? We likely won't even know who is to blame.

The vast majority of people I know in the private have taken paycuts this year, from 5 - 10%, and are fully aware there will be no pay rises, but the public sector are up in arms over the pension levy, and still expect pay increments?

Riskymove

jmayo wrote: »

The big difference you will find in private sector is that workers will not get a rise or a new contract with increased terms, no matter how long they have been in the job, if times are tough and revenues are not coming in.

That is true but I still think experience counts in your salary level in the private sector...do new people in the door earn the same as someone with 6 or 7 years or whatever experience?

that is what increments are about

pay rises to those increments have been frozen (in fact cancelled)

Riskymove

MikeC101 wrote: »

What riles me is the severe lack of accountability displayed by the public sector. The HSE now predict they will lose an extra €50 million this year, that they "didn't realise" would happen. And what happens? Absolutely nothing. If this happened in a company in the private sector heads would roll. In the public sector? We likely won't even know who is to blame.

The vast majority of people I know in the private have taken paycuts this year, from 5 - 10%, and are fully aware there will be no pay rises, but the public sector are up in arms over the pension levy, and still expect pay increments?

I completely agree about accountability over the HSE incidents especially given the amount of layer sof management


with regard to the levy, I believe you will find many parts of the public sector have toned down talk about that as it has taken effect and people move on; however, given that the first pay cheques with the budget applied are due this week, it may re-appear:rolleyes:

BornToKill

MikeC101 wrote: »

What riles me is the severe lack of accountability displayed by the public sector. If this happened in a company in the private sector heads would roll. In the public sector?

It did happen in a company in the private sector. In fact, it happened in several. Anglo, AIB, BOI and NIB to name but a few.

I suppose a few heads did roll in all fairness: Michael Fingleton stepped down after INBS made provision for €464 million of bad debts. Mind you, a €27.6 million pension buys quite a few plush pillows for that particular rolling head.

This is not about accountability or even about the private or public sector. If you reach the right level in either it's all gravy. 'The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which'.

AARRRGH

Riskymove wrote: »

That is true but I still think experience counts in your salary level in the private sector...do new people in the door earn the same as someone with 6 or 7 years or whatever experience?

that is what increments are about

pay rises to those increments have been frozen (in fact cancelled)

You can call the extra money whatever you want, but the fact is people are getting more money when they should be getting less.

The public sector should be run like the private sector - no more money, and the possibility of pay cuts.

Celticfire

AARRRGH wrote: »

You can call the extra money whatever you want, but the fact is people are getting more money when they should be getting less.

The public sector should be run like the private sector - no more money, and the possibility of pay cuts.

What do you mean by the possibility of a pay cut?, there's already been a pay cut.

AARRRGH

Celticfire wrote: »

What do you mean by the possibility of a pay cut?, there's already been a pay cut.

There's been a pension levy. I mean straight talking "you're all taking a 10% pay cut".

Celticfire

AARRRGH wrote: »

There's been a pension levy. I mean straight talking "you're all taking a 10% pay cut".

You can call it whatever you want the reality is that my take home pay has been reduced, which as far as I'm concerned is a pay cut.

terrydub

It's a pension levy,so when you retire you will recieve a guaranteed pension unlike the
private sector pension which have no such guarantee.

ardmacha

It's a pay cut, you receive the pension anyway. It is called a "pension levy" to avoid contractual disputes.
The average level of pay cut achieved this way in the public sector is at least the average pay cut in the private sector, although of course the private sector has had much greater variation.

I am suprised that the increments went ahead though.

kippy

Another thread that is heading towards the Public Sector bashing bin ( I reckon)

A couple of things, some already stated.
1. No one anywhere said increments would be scrapped. Personally, and I have gone into detail on this in other posts, the increments system, in the way it is implemented up till now, has not been beneficial to the best people in the public service and in fact ensures that the worst performers get pay rises the same as the best performers. Eventually the best people get dissillusioned and ask themselves whats the point if that plonker in the corner gets his rise for doing jack **** all year. The incremental system is and always has been somewhat of a joke.
2. Everyone gets paid increments at varying times of the year depending on their initial start date.
3. There still appear to be some serious misconceptions around the place on the public sector pensions levy. Please ensure you read up on how much public servants pay towards their pension and how the levy has effected them.


The increments will be frozen come next budget I reckon. But for a more efficient service it needs to be replaced with something far more robust and fair.

For all those out there who hate the Public Service and its workers. I genuinely feel sorry for those who lose jobs, but really, we are all in this together, low level Public and Private workers HAVE been screwed over one way or another by the decisions of those above in in both private and public sectors.


Kippy

MikeC101

BornToKill wrote: »

It did happen in a company in the private sector. In fact, it happened in several. Anglo, AIB, BOI and NIB to name but a few.

I suppose a few heads did roll in all fairness: Michael Fingleton stepped down after INBS made provision for €464 million of bad debts. Mind you, a €27.6 million pension buys quite a few plush pillows for that particular rolling head.

This is not about accountability or even about the private or public sector. If you reach the right level in either it's all gravy. 'The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which'.

Mmm, true enough I suppose - but the situations aren't quite the same. The banking losses were pretty much across the board, and caused by people at a certain level getting out of control with trying to make more profit along with an international economic collapse. The banks will pay in a huge loss of profits, consumer confidence and so on.

The losses and inefficiency in the public service seem to be happening constantly, and are almost expected. At least with the banks we had people to blame, with the public service we never seem to find out who is responsible, or see any repercussions.

microgirl

terrydub wrote: »

It's a pension levy,so when you retire you will recieve a guaranteed pension unlike the
private sector pension which have no such guarantee.

Excuse me, this "pension levy" (which is a complete misnomer) has been applied in my organisation too, because we are technically public service, despite the fact that we have a PRIVATE pension, not even remotely State guaranteed, so someone tell me how that's fair? (or indeed, legal, but how-and-ever)

ceret

This is appaling. The public sector is terribly ineffeicent.

Benchmarking should be continued. Benchmark public sector pay to private sector pay. Paycuts!

spank_inferno

ceret wrote: »

This is appaling. The public sector is terribly ineffeicent.

Benchmarking should be continued. Benchmark public sector pay to private sector pay. Paycuts!

+1
Its only fair. I doubt there could be a public sector worker here that could logicaly disagree.

But I' probably wrong

ardmacha

This is appaling. The public sector is terribly ineffeicent.

But we can spell.

Benchmarking should be continued. Benchmark public sector pay to private sector pay. Paycuts!

It is reasonable to have a new benchmarking, which should be a proper and honest effort, not like the original one. However, it is pointless to deny that the public sector has already had a paycut on a par with the average of the private sector.

Euro_Kraut

Breaking News: Public Sector workers get paid increments!!!

Are FG actually surprised about this or are they just whipping up more anti PS fever before the elections? The Govt never committed to freeze increments. I would love to see FG running in these elections on commitment to freeze pay increments.