"Public servants to receive pay hikes worth €250m"

P. Breathnach

ceret wrote: »

... Benchmarking should be continued. Benchmark public sector pay to private sector pay. Paycuts!

I agree that a further round of benchmarking would be a good idea. Declaring the outcome in advance is not. [Joe O'Toole could tell you about that.]

Abolishing incremental scales is a whole 'nother matter. Who is to say that the base point of a scale is the proper rate for a job? You might equally argue that the top of the scale is the rate, and that those lower on the scale are serving a kind of apprenticeship until they have achieved full mastery.

ixoy

ardmacha wrote: »

However, it is pointless to deny that the public sector has already had a paycut on a par with the average of the private sector.

Is it? I mean I'm genuinely curious as to what the average private sector pay cut is and I'd be curious to see what the pay cut is like with increments taken into account (and the potential to move to a new levy band). Are there any figures available detailing:
1) Private companies who've reduced employee numbers
2) Those who've reduced employee numbers
3) Those who've done both
4) Those who've done neither but not increased anything (recruitment/pay freeze)
5) Those who've actually had increases

Anyone know if this data is available in some form? Obviously given most companies are SMEs and not publicly traded it might be difficult but IBEC may have released it.

Sleepy

Might make an interesting topic for a poll in the census forum?

Personally, I'm in the private sector and got a 20% gross reduction in salary when being cut to a 4 day work week. After the tax changes it worked out at about 15% less take-home. I'd be surprised if anyone in the public sector has been hit that hard tbh.

jmayo

ixoy wrote: »

Is it? I mean I'm genuinely curious as to what the average private sector pay cut is and I'd be curious to see what the pay cut is like with increments taken into account (and the potential to move to a new levy band). Are there any figures available detailing:
1) Private companies who've reduced employee numbers
2) Those who've reduced employee numbers
3) Those who've done both
4) Those who've done neither but not increased anything (recruitment/pay freeze)
5) Those who've actually had increases

Anyone know if this data is available in some form? Obviously given most companies are SMEs and not publicly traded it might be difficult but IBEC may have released it.

Not done yet I would say, but I bet the Revenue together with the CSO will come up with yet another form that they want filled out like the last two I have had to fill out :rolleyes:
I guess it probably keeps a few public servants in jobs entering all that data and running a few statistical programs to work out how many people have computers, buy stuff over the web and transfer information to customers/suppliers via electronic means.

The only thing I think worth recording is do you have adequate broadband in your area. Funny that question was not asked on the last form I filled.
PS Mobile braodband is not adequate broadband and can someone please inform that muppet ryan of that point.

To previous poster saying you need to differentiate between new workers and older ones with more experience, hence increments. Isn't there a hiring freeze anyway.

Anyway final question, can anyone please tell me where are they going to get the money ?

Galmay

Firstly, I am of the opinion that absolutely increments should be frozen for the duration of the recession. While I understand their purpose and am a public sector employee myself, increments arent justified in the current climate. However, this is a government decision, not a public sector employee decision so certain people should layoff the PS bashing. If you have an issue with this contact your local TD.
Secondly, all this public/private sector comparison is getting out of hand. Each side is manipulating data to prove lazy generalisations and inaccuracies. For instance, I know only 2 people laid off so far, both professionals in the PS on short term contracts, I know 2 people on short weeks in the private sector apart from that the only people I know who have taken an effective pay cut are colleagues paying the pension levy. While my experience in itself proves nothing, neither does anybody elses, the point is everybody has suffered to a degree, it is not a competition as to who is suffering most or who feels hardest done by. There are people on every spectrum of society affected.
As for the other PS 'issue' of permanent and pensionable jobs, I think everybody realises this will change sooner rather than later especially for new entrants. Again, raise this issue with your local TD, coming on to public forums and bad-mouthing and generalising about 300,000 odd people is not an effective method of argument.

astrofool

If increments are to be kept, then pay across all of the public sector should drop in line with the decreased taxes coming in to pay for them.

You have to laugh at a PS worker complaining that their increment barely makes up for paying a bit more towards their pension, they're still living in cloud cuckoo land.

kippy

astrofool wrote: »

If increments are to be kept, then pay across all of the public sector should drop in line with the decreased taxes coming in to pay for them.

You have to laugh at a PS worker complaining that their increment barely makes up for paying a bit more towards their pension, they're still living in cloud cuckoo land.

Thanks for the sweeping generalisation.
A common theme in threads such as this.
Kippy

astrofool

Galmay wrote: »

For instance, I know only 2 people laid off so far, both professionals in the PS on short term contracts, I know 2 people on short weeks in the private sector apart from that the only people I know who have taken an effective pay cut are colleagues paying the pension levy. While my experience in itself proves nothing

As you say it proves absolutely zero, squat, nada, the proof is in the rapidly rising number of people on the live register.

astrofool

kippy wrote: »

Thanks for the sweeping generalisation.
A common theme in threads such as this.
Kippy

I'm talking about this person:

unichick wrote: »

Where I work we received an increment last month and it does not cover the cost of the pension levy.

Who thanks to the collective bargaining that the PS use, we get to use to represent all of the PS

kippy

astrofool wrote: »

I'm talking about this person:



Who thanks to the collective bargaining that the PS use, we get to use to represent all of the PS

Fair enough Astro......
Not everyone within the PS is of the same thinking........... however, collective bargaining and collective intelligence are two completely different matters.
I would hate to think that the thinking of a few of my colleagues would be representative of my own thoughts and feelings on matters.
Kippy

redsteveireland

blondie7 wrote: »

people stop giving out about public servants, ye made the choice to work for the private sector nobody forced ye into it!!

We will if public servants stop giving out fullstop.

stevoman

another witchhunt. sells papers i suppose. :rolleyes:

incremental pay is in the contract of a civil servants and thats always been the way. nobody was crying about it in the good times. entry level pay for a clerical officer as of now is €24397 annually.

Thank god for incremental pay or id still be drawing down this ultra crap wage.

yes the public sector have some inneffeciencies but so does everything. you should see the job i had trying to get the binman to leave me a new wheely bin. or the job i had trying to get something done with my insurance company. are these not private sector.

This whole arguement is old now at this stage.


IMO..... feck the begrudgers! Im glad now i had the hindsight to choose the civil service as my career.

ArphaRima

IMO..... feck the begrudgers! Im glad now i had the hindsight to choose the civil service as my career.

Well I'm still glad I didnt choose it.

Fergus08

And they're off!! Another public sector bashing thread on boards.ie - I'm constantly surprised!!

What I'd like the public sector bashers to do is get out a calculator and divide 250 million by 340,000.

I'll do it for handiness sake:
250,000,000 / 340,000 = EUR 735

That's the average payment that will result from the increments. Not, as the initial article slyly implies 2,400 per person. So, if some people are getting 2,400, a lot more are getting less than EUR 735. Spread that over 52 weeks and you get a grand total of an extra 14 euros per week average increase. Some will get a little more (those getting 2,400 in increased increments will get 46 euro a week extra) some (most, probably) will get less than 14 euros a week of an increase.

The story is a sly, scummy, putrid lie, from start to finish. I read the cover of the Independent and could see immediately a flaw in its figures. The Irish Independent seems intent on reaching new lows in Irish journalism, which in its current degraded state will be some achievement.

That the public sector bashers on boards and in the media can't even do a basic fact check confirms to me, for the umpteenth time, that they really are driven by irrationality. It also calls into question their good faith and, it's fair to say, their intelligence.

astrofool

Fergus08 wrote: »

And they're off!! Another public sector bashing thread on boards.ie - I'm constantly surprised!!

What I'd like the public sector bashers to do is get out a calculator and divide 250 million by 340,000.

I'll do it for handiness sake:
250,000,000 / 340,000 = EUR 735

That's the average payment that will result from the increments. Not, as the initial article slyly implies 2,400 per person. So, if some people are getting 2,400, a lot more are getting less than EUR 735. Spread that over 52 weeks and you get a grand total of an extra 14 euros per week average increase. Some will get a little more (those getting 2,400 in increased increments will get 46 euro a week extra) some (most, probably) will get less than 14 euros a week of an increase.

The story is a sly, scummy, putrid lie, from start to finish. I read the cover of the Independent and could see immediately a flaw in its figures. The Irish Independent seems intent on reaching new lows in Irish journalism, which in its current degraded state will be some achievement.

That the public sector bashers on boards and in the media can't even do a basic fact check confirms to me, for the umpteenth time, that they really are driven by irrationality. It also calls into question their good faith and, it's fair to say, their intelligence.

The problem is that the country doesn't have €250m to spread between 340,000 workers, but in fact needs to cut the wages of those 340,000 by more than €250m to even begin to balance the books. It's all going to end in the contracts being ripped up and renegotiated, or the IMF coming in and letting half the PS go in one fell swoop, giving the €250m in increments now is absolutely insane.

Fat_Fingers

One possibility is that situation is going to get much better but we need to wait for the right conditions. Job losses in private sector will continue. Government will be forced to raise more and more tax and will drive us deeper into depression. This government or any other will not address issues in public service. We will run out of money, and nobody will want to give us more. New income tax and stealth levies will move to 60+ % as its needed to support public service and unemployed. Black economy will become huge again. Resulting in less tax take and more levies on the workers. Revolt on the streets will start. Government falls and new intern Government has no options left but to call in IMF. They come in and up the taxes to about 75% to pay for the new borrowings. Public service 1/3 gets sacked. More protest and street walks but Government is no longer in charge so people can walk as much as they want. Fast forward to 10 years later and hey presto we are out of trouble but dark clouds are forming on the horizon again.. you just heard on the radio Fianna Fail was elected and Taoiseach is Beverley Flynn, finance minister is Mary Coughlan...

grahamo

astrofool wrote: »

The problem is that the country doesn't have €250m to spread between 340,000 workers, but in fact needs to cut the wages of those 340,000 by more than €250m to even begin to balance the books. It's all going to end in the contracts being ripped up and renegotiated, or the IMF coming in and letting half the PS go in one fell swoop, giving the €250m in increments now is absolutely insane.

Wow! I didn't realise you were the minister for finance. You actually know all this stuff for a fact?
Not all Public sector receive these and for those that do its about 15-30 euro a week. (Can't speak for TD's and the top people ). Did nobody in the private sector ever get a pay rise then? No...wait!....every single one of you are taking massive pay cuts....NOT! I'm really, really bored with these public sector witch hunt threads.

jmayo

astrofool wrote: »

The problem is that the country doesn't have €250m to spread between 340,000 workers, but in fact needs to cut the wages of those 340,000 by more than €250m to even begin to balance the books. It's all going to end in the contracts being ripped up and renegotiated, or the IMF coming in and letting half the PS go in one fell swoop, giving the €250m in increments now is absolutely insane.

I have asked numerous times on this forum and on another, where will the money come from to either pay for this or other increases that were negotiated.
As yet not one pro public sector poster has given an answer, apart from either it is in the contract or it has been agreed and we are due it.

Are people living in cloud cuckoo f88king la la land :rolleyes:
Do people actually run their households in the same manner, because if they do money lenders must be doing booming business ?

The country is fu**ed, we just do not have the money
I am not even talking about any money that has to be pumped into the banks to keep them afloat. When we really have to face that hurdel the country will collapse.
Posters raise the banks as a reason why they should get bonuses, raises, increments and not take a pay cut.
Even if the banks were fine we are still f**ked because our tax revenues have fallen hugely and yet our spending is increasing.

As usual I don't expect a reply, apart from being accused of going on anti public sector worker rant :rolleyes:

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

One possibility is that situation is going to get much better but we need to wait for the right conditions. Job losses in private sector will continue. Government will be forced to raise more and more tax and will drive us deeper into depression. This government or any other will not address issues in public service. We will run out of money, and nobody will want to give us more. New income tax and stealth levies will move to 60+ % as its needed to support public service and unemployed. Black economy will become huge again. Resulting in less tax take and more levies on the workers. Revolt on the streets will start. Government falls and new intern Government has no options left but to call in IMF. They come in and up the taxes to about 75% to pay for the new borrowings. Public service 1/3 gets sacked. More protest and street walks but Government is no longer in charge so people can walk as much as they want...

This is probably closer to the truth than most people think.
Some people probably hope the Germans step in to save us in order to save the Euro.
Either way we will have a very unforgiving master :rolleyes:

Riskymove

I agree that the increments should probably be paused for a time while we see what happens this year but to clarify some points made:

1. If €250m is the correct figure then you can deduct the pension levy and income levy from that followed by PAYE and PRSI to a far reduced amount to be actually paid

2. The cost will be more than covered by the reductions in Public Service Bill due to the introduction of Early Retirement, Sabbaticals and Reduced working year which have huge interest at present in PS and whose vacancies wont be filled. In addition there is a recruitment and promotion freeze and contract staff are being let go.

3. There are a number of other areas which need to come under the level of scrutiny and debate that the PS has is recent times if we are to really solve the problem; Welfare costs is the primary one and is a massive expenditure (estimated to be about 29% of governemtn expenditure this year - over €21bn). The other is the taxes due; I learned last week there is well over €1bn in due taxes not yet paid by companies.

redsteveireland

Fergus08 wrote: »

And they're off!! Another public sector bashing thread on boards.ie - I'm constantly surprised!!

What I'd like the public sector bashers to do is get out a calculator and divide 250 million by 340,000.

I'll do it for handiness sake:
250,000,000 / 340,000 = EUR 735

That's the average payment that will result from the increments. Not, as the initial article slyly implies 2,400 per person. So, if some people are getting 2,400, a lot more are getting less than EUR 735. Spread that over 52 weeks and you get a grand total of an extra 14 euros per week average increase. Some will get a little more (those getting 2,400 in increased increments will get 46 euro a week extra) some (most, probably) will get less than 14 euros a week of an increase.

The story is a sly, scummy, putrid lie, from start to finish. I read the cover of the Independent and could see immediately a flaw in its figures. The Irish Independent seems intent on reaching new lows in Irish journalism, which in its current degraded state will be some achievement.

That the public sector bashers on boards and in the media can't even do a basic fact check confirms to me, for the umpteenth time, that they really are driven by irrationality. It also calls into question their good faith and, it's fair to say, their intelligence.

Your constantly surprised? I'd say that looks funny!:eek:
On a serious note the article doesn't say 2,400 per person, if you read the article I referenced it says "worth up to €2,400" up to being the key words there.
As for questioning peoples intelligence....that's just not nice.

ceret

The problem is that that the public sector has a very bad public image. They are viewed by lots of PAYE workers are lazy and incompetant. They are also viewed as greedy and totally divorced from reality. While many people are getting let go or getting pay cuts, we see the public sector getting pay rises and our taxes going up. To us this looks just as bad and unfair as the bankers who ruined us getting €10million bonuses.

astrofool

grahamo wrote: »

Wow! I didn't realise you were the minister for finance. You actually know all this stuff for a fact?
Not all Public sector receive these and for those that do its about 15-30 euro a week. (Can't speak for TD's and the top people ). Did nobody in the private sector ever get a pay rise then? No...wait!....every single one of you are taking massive pay cuts....NOT! I'm really, really bored with these public sector witch hunt threads.

It might only be €15-30 a week for a single person, but combined it's €250,000,000 that the country doesn't have , if the amount is that little per worker, why give it at all?

The government needs to make cuts across the board, including social welfare, all they have done so far has been to increase taxes, and offer public servants early retirements or give them money to leave their "essential" job for three years.

They will have to get serious, as I said, keep increments, just reduce the PS wages by 10-20% across the board (then the extra 20-30 a week will really mean something), or get rid of 10-20% of them, and then we might be getting near a sustainable public service based on the income coming in.

Fergus08

Who says the government hasn't got the cash? Are these the same people who are saying we need to pump billions (who knows how much, who cares how much?) into the banks? That 250 million will in all likelihood be spent by its recipents - it'll add some small fragment to domestic demand. It will go some small way to keeping local businesses going. A significant portion of it will return to the Exchequer in taxes, PRSI, levies etc.

I know the public sector bashers can't wait for the big bad IMF to come and sort us out. Of course, they haven't thought through the consequenences of this - they don't think about events in Hungary, Latvia, Iceland, not to mention non-European states that have been given the once over by the IMF.

Do you seriously think we'll have any sort of a stable society if the IMF sack half of the public service. We'll already have 585,000 on the dole by year's end. You want to add another 170,000 to that. So, your preferred option is to have 755,000 people on the dole. And this is going to be funded how? Each 1000 people on the dole costs the state around 10 million annually. That's another 1.7 billion that the government has to find. And you think that with nearly 800,000 people on the dole that things will just tick along nicely?

Sacking half of the public sevice will satisfy the atavism of the public sector bashers, no doubt. But I'm certain that it will be cold comfort amid the riots and general chaos that will result from the sort of IMF intervention astrofool desires.

kippy

ceret wrote: »

The problem is that that the public sector has a very bad public image. They are viewed by lots of PAYE workers are lazy and incompetant. They are also viewed as greedy and totally divorced from reality. While many people are getting let go or getting pay cuts, we see the public sector getting pay rises and our taxes going up. To us this looks just as bad and unfair as the bankers who ruined us getting €10million bonuses.

FOR THE LAST TIME.
You'd think that only Private sector employees paid PAYE or Taxes.
We're all PAYE workers my friend, private and public. I dont like seeing my taxes go to waste either, but they have been for so many years. Whether it be to prop up a property markey or to provide tax shelters for the rich or pay for a top heavy HSE or pay for the wastage of millions on Evoting, (Insert generic wast of money here)

Fergus08

redsteveireland wrote: »

Your constantly surprised? I'd say that looks funny!:eek:
On a serious note the article doesn't say 2,400 per person, if you read the article I referenced it says "worth up to €2,400" up to being the key words there.
As for questioning peoples intelligence....that's just not nice.

Look it's classic bait and switch. Yeah, big deal the article said "up to" 2,400. But they go for the highest possible figure when the need to ridicule the public sector - giving the casual reader the impression that ALL public sector employees were getting 2,400. But then they use averages when that supports their argument - i.e. "Gardai earn and average for EUR 60,000 a year" or whatever figure it is.

If the the article was fair minded it would pointed out explicitly the true average figure. And it would have added the caveat that many would get less than that. It wasn't fair minded - it was agenda driven and was another attack on the public sector. The Irish Independent is incapable of fair mindedness when it comes to the public sector - although of course they're far to polite to inquire too deeply into farming subsidies and whether they could be trimmed in these hard times?

ednwireland

kippy wrote: »

FOR THE LAST TIME.
You'd think that only Private sector employees paid PAYE or Taxes.
We're all PAYE workers my friend, private and public. I dont like seeing my taxes go to waste either, but they have been for so many years. Whether it be to prop up a property markey or to provide tax shelters for the rich or pay for a top heavy HSE or pay for the wastage of millions on Evoting, (Insert generic wast of money here)

FOR THE LAST TIME

all the money that pays your wages which the gets taxed comes from the private sector.
the real point is the gov has a current gap in income of about 30-35 billion, to what its spending YET it insists on paying increments, if our company doesnt have the money tp pay the wages we dont get it or wait as i had to last m onth because one of the directors wasn't here to do a fund transfer between accounts

TheCityManager

Ah yes another PS bashing thread....

PS workers may indeed have job security and a pension when they retire but these two benefits do not pay the bills NOW..reducing pay packets affect all equally....we are all in this together...

Let me give you an example which all shoudl consider before further PS bashing...

Quite a few years ago I was friends with two lads, one a plumber one a carpenter...both working in the private sector for contractors

The plumber (let's call him Tom..) decided to apply for and take a plumbing job with a local authority (for job security etc..) Now the carpenter (let's call him Brian..) laughed and sneered at Tom endlessly as Tom accepted a modest wage (in return for his job security..)
Brian got caught up in the celtic Tiger, earning vast sums, buying jeeps, buying beer for all, going on exotic holidays...no such high living for Tom who got by on his average wage...

Eventually the recession landed, Brian lost his job, along with his high lifestyle, jeeps and houses.. Tom continued on in his public sector job, his salary further reduced by pension levies etc.

Now that Brian can no longer find work his continually points the finger now at Tom, slags him and his colleagues off and calls for Tom to take further pay cuts .......

But......the moral of the story?
We all make choices in life ..Tom chose the secure average paid employment in the PS whilst Brian decided on 'taking a chance' on the lavish lifestyle of the celtic tiger...

Brian could have joined the PS but chose not to and instead earned a vast salary for years....

How unfair is it now for Brian to turn on Tom?
Brian made his choice..he should shut up and put up....:mad:

Conor OH!

jmayo wrote: »

True nobody forced me to work in private sector, but they are forcing me to pay for a generally overpaid, inefficient, irresponsible, incompetent, almost unsackable, pampered public sector.

See the difference ? I bet you won't :rolleyes:

BTW we can't all work in public sector.
If we did we would have Soviet communism and we all know how well that worked

Now before you get your knickers in a twist, I am not labelling every single public sector worker as above, but my God as a whole it does describe a fair amount.

As an aside just heard on radio Dublin is going to have an electable Lord Mayor, with guess what a salary similar to government minister.
And I suppose an office staff, advisors, pr staff, etc, etc to go with the job.
Just what we need more added expense :rolleyes:

LOOK: the private sector got us ALL into this mess, so p!ss off if you think you can rely on hard-working under-appreciated public sector staff to bail you out. its not our fault that you had to trade in your 2009 BMW's for less ridiculous cars, or that you cant go on 8 holidays a year anymore, tough crap. its the way it is, and the private sector started it. mainly banks. so leave the public sector workers alone.

grahamo

astrofool wrote: »

They will have to get serious, as I said, keep increments, just reduce the PS wages by 10-20% across the board (then the extra 20-30 a week will really mean something), or get rid of 10-20% of them, and then we might be getting near a sustainable public service based on the income coming in.

Thats it! :(Thats the answer. A pay cut!
I kept quiet years ago when CJ sat in his designer suit and told us we were living beyond our means. I was working for peanuts at the time and really struggling. After years of working my ass off in whats left of the manufacturing insdustry in this country for feck all, as wages remained stagnant for what seemed like years, things began to pick up and we even got a few pay rises over the years. I then moved to public sector. I said feck all as all my mates did well over the last 10-15 years. Things were great, even the labourers with no qualifications at all were earning more than me but they worked hard for it so deserved it.Fair play to them! Just like in the 80's things have gone pear shaped again:
The solution: Blame the public sector!
Now I have to listen to the many barstool economists (Mostly twentysomethings, middle class and fresh outa college) who are barely in the workforce a wet day telling me its all my fault and I should take a pay cut etc. etc. (Maybe when you kids have actually lived through a recession you can give me advice on getting out of it :rolleyes:;))
Fair enough, its ALWAYS been the PAYE worker who pays, but is the cost of living gonna drop 20%? are mortgages gonna drop 20%?....Nope! As usual the ordinary Joe pays the price!:mad:

stevoman

TheCityManager wrote: »

Ah yes another PS bashing thread....

PS workers may indeed have job security and a pension when they retire but these two benefits do not pay the bills NOW..reducing pay packets affect all equally....we are all in this together...

Let me give you an example which all shoudl consider before further PS bashing...

Quite a few years ago I was friends with two lads, one a plumber one a carpenter...both working in the private sector for contractors

The plumber (let's call him Tom..) decided to apply for and take a plumbing job with a local authority (for job security etc..) Now the carpenter (let's call him Brian..) laughed and sneered at Tom endlessly as Tom accepted a modest wage (in return for his job security..)
Brian got caught up in the celtic Tiger, earning vast sums, buying jeeps, buying beer for all, going on exotic holidays...no such high living for Tom who got by on his average wage...

Eventually the recession landed, Brian lost his job, along with his high lifestyle, jeeps and houses.. Tom continued on in his public sector job, his salary further reduced by pension levies etc.

Now that Brian can no longer find work his continually points the finger now at Tom, slags him and his colleagues off and calls for Tom to take further pay cuts .......

But......the moral of the story?
We all make choices in life ..Tom chose the secure average paid employment in the PS whilst Brian decided on 'taking a chance' on the lavish lifestyle of the celtic tiger...

Brian could have joined the PS but chose not to and instead earned a vast salary for years....

How unfair is it now for Brian to turn on Tom?
Brian made his choice..he should shut up and put up....:mad:

very good post.