Ferrari to quit F1

dor83

Renault's statement seems to have a lot more in it than Ferraris, Flav says

“There is frustration that FOTA's constructive proposals, including major cost saving measures to be adopted progressively between 2009 and 2012, which were carefully constructed by FOTA members, have been completely ignored without any form of consultation by the FIA with the teams,” the statement read.

“It should be stressed that FOTA has set the same, if not lower, financial objective as the FIA, but Renault strongly believes that this must be introduced through a different procedure agreed by all parties.

“Renault also believes that it is paramount that the governance of the sport is coordinated with a spirit of consultation with all parties (FIA, FOM, FOTA) in order to achieve a better balance between the costs and the revenues."

SouperComputer

Vectra wrote:

aproxx 30% of the followers are Ferrari Fans

Thanks for agreeing with me, assuming this to be true (no idea what your source is), we'll assume 15% of these are hardcore fans that wont watch F1 if Ferrari quit (Doubtful). We are left with 75%.

MOST people watch F1 for the competition, their favourite teams and drivers change.

$40m is very feasible, it just means certain prima-donnas will need to take paycuts

dor83

SouperComputer wrote: »

Thanks for agreeing with me, assuming this to be true (no idea what your source is), we'll assume 15% of these are hardcore fans that wont watch F1 if Ferrari quit (Doubtful). We are left with 75%. paycuts

Yeah, maybe but it's not just Ferrari, Toyota, Red Bull and Renault have all said they won't be in the championship next year if the rules stay the same and BMW have also expressed concern. So thats 5/6 established teams with a lot of fans gone next season if the rules aren't changed.

MOST people watch F1 for the competition, their favourite teams and drivers change.

The same could be said about any sport but remove Man Utd , Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal and a couple of others from the EPL and see how it would get on. Remove the bigs teams from any sport and people will stop watching.

$40m is very feasible, it just means certain prima-donnas will need to take paycuts

It is feasible but not straight away, they need to gradually reduce it rather than just drop it straight away and expect the teams to be able to cope with it.

ScumLord

vectra wrote: »

Well
If Kimi goes and Ferrari goes.
I would have only have one reason to watch it.
That would be if Adam Carroll enters.
I would support him and his team

I don't get that?? You watch F1 to see the Ferrari logo not the race?

smooch71

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't get that?? You watch F1 to see the Ferrari logo not the race?

I don't get your point.

Most people who watch a team based sport, and F1 is no exception, have a preference over who they want to win.

Vectra obviously supports Ferrari, what's up with that?

vectra

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't get that?? You watch F1 to see the Ferrari logo not the race?

Haha.
I wont even answer that for fear of being banned by a mod

enzo7

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't get that?? You watch F1 to see the Ferrari logo not the race?

ferrari isnt just a "logo" its a massive part of f1 history.

dor83

enzo7 wrote: »

ferrari isnt just a "logo" its a massive part of f1 history.

To echo this, here's the Ferrari drivers and Montezemolo talking about the decision.

Massa

“For a driver racing a Ferrari in Formula 1 is a dream and I made mine come true,” he said.

“Since I was a child Ferrari has been the synonym for racing for me; that’s why I’m convinced that even if the Scuderia is forced to leave Formula 1, there will be other competitions, where it will be possible to admire the Reds on the track.”

Montezemolo

“I want to thank you [the fans] personally for the numerous messages of support we received from all over the world over the last hours on our website and via email,” the Italian said.

“It is important to know that we can count on the support of our fans all over the world and that our fans completely share the motivations, which brought us to take such a decision.

“If we were forced to leave the championship we were part of over the last 60 years of our history and where we set all the records in terms of victories, it is because they want to change the nature of its founding values.

“If it really was like that, then I have to say that our cars will race in other competitions, where – and I am absolutely convinced about that – they will find the enthusiasm and the passion of millions of fans, following us in every corner of the world.

“Racing is part of Ferrari’s DNA and this is something that will never change.”

Hagar

I remember a rumour about English soccer teams talking about leaving Division One football in England to form a breakaway league called the Premiership.

Did it ever take off? Is it making any money? Who watches Division One football nowadays?

vectra

LIGHTNING wrote: »

With any luck we could see Ferrari in the WRC

With Kimi behind the wheel

hi_sir

they pan to hit the wrc in a way but with fiat hence the punto S2000 project in the IRC kimi has entered his third rally of the year an event in italy between the weekends of monaco and turkey i think the lad has lost intrest in F1 maybe a rallying carer beckons is he the next leob dont think so maybe more of J-M Latvala

TheChrisD

Jeez, they have a bad start to a year and now they're already trying to find an excuse to complain and threaten to quit...

vectra

TheChrisD wrote: »

Jeez, they have a bad start to a year and now they're already trying to find an excuse to complain and threaten to quit...

You honestly believe that is why they are threatening to quit?
:rolleyes:

EvilMonkey

TheChrisD wrote: »

Jeez, they have a bad start to a year and now they're already trying to find an excuse to complain and threaten to quit...

Cant you see this is just politics all the teams who are against the changes for next year are working together here.
Their was a FOTA meeting last week then Ferrari have their meeting and announce this, then Renault say they wont enter next year under the rules and i expect others to follow. FOTA wants a meeting with the FIA and so far the FIA has ignored their calls for a meeting so now we are here.
I only hope for the future of F1 the FIA back down or this could backfire on FOTA.
This is the problem with not getting another concord agreement after the old one expired a few years ago.

I would still watch F1 if Ferrari go but I wont watch a two tiered championship.

Iridium

Seems like I came on a little strong - sorry folks. I'll try to clarify.

I've been an F1 fan for as long as I can remember. I organise my life around watching the grand prix live, so the demise of the sport is definitely the last thing I want to see.

However, one thing I cannot stand to see in any sport, not just F1, is one team or player thinking that they are bigger than the sport that they make their living from. Which is definitely the impression Ferrari gave off the other day - play the game our way or we're taking our ball and going home. Fair enough, other teams have said the same thing, but since this thread was specifically about Ferrari I didn't feel the need to bring that in.

I think one thing we can all agree on is that nobody wants a two-tier F1. If the budget cap is brought in, it needs to be compulsory for all teams from year one.

But like it or not, this budget cap does need to happen. It seems at the moment that if it comes in next season, it'll be the end of the big teams. If it doesn't it'll be the end of the smaller teams. If the big teams go, more smaller teams will join. Personally I'd prefer to see a 26 car grid with Williams as the most established team, than a 10 car grid with the likes of Ferrari and McLaren. The 26 best single seater race drivers in the world vs. the 10 best? No contest for me.

v10

Personally what I see happening here is that the two-tier system will be abandoned and a budget cap of 100 million or so will be agreed possibly reducing by a certain amount each year over a few years. All teams would agree and life will go on.

I genuienly believe that if Ferrari, Renault and other big teams pulled out of F1 that it would spell the end of F1 within a few years.

Of course I could be wrong. :rolleyes:

Tragedy

I always figured F1 needed Ferrari more than Ferrari needs F1. If they dissappeared overnight from it, would it really make much difference to their sales?

vectra

v10 wrote: »

Personally what I see happening here is that the two-tier system will be abandoned and a budget cap of 100 million or so will be agreed possibly reducing by a certain amount each year over a few years. All teams would agree and life will go on.

Isnt that almost exactly what they are suggesting?

enzo7

vectra wrote: »

Isnt that almost exactly what they are suggesting?

it was £40m i thought, if they did say £100m and reduce it yearly that would be more realistic.

smooch71

Hagar wrote: »

I remember a rumour about English soccer teams talking about leaving Division One football in England to form a breakaway league called the Premiership.

Did it ever take off? Is it making any money? Who watches Division One football nowadays?

Yeah heard about that, I believe it worked a treat and people are big into it.

You what the trick was?

They didn't change the name. It's still called FOOTBALL.

smooch71

Like Iridium says, I know the thread is called "Ferrari to quit F1" but a lot of posters are making it appear that Ferrari are the spoilt brats and if the FIA don't change the rules back, then "it's my ball and I'm going home"

The fact is, Ferrari, Red Bull, Toro Rosso, Toyota and now Renault have all said they're pulling out. And BMW and Mercedes will follow.

So you'll be left with Williams, Force India and Brawn, all running the same Cosworth engine. Because ironically, they can't afford NOT to be in F1.

So why not accuse Toyota of throwing their toys out of the pram? Or Renault?

There may be some contributors here who are not hardcore F1 fans (I can clearly see a lot of you are!) and I suspect these are the ones who don't seem to realise how serious this whole thing is.

It's not simply about whether or not F1 can survive without Ferrari, it's about whether or not F1 can survive at all. And with the current blinkered dictatorship that is the FIA and more specifally Max Mosley, it's doubtful.

Hagar

smooch71 wrote:

They didn't change the name. It's still called FOOTBALL.

Heard of Motor Racing?

It's a big money business, without the main teams there is no business. Do you really think people will flock to Monaco to watch teams race that didn't win major points last season? There is going to be some serious backroom business this week in Monaco. Don't be too surprised if the F1 promotors suddenly come up with next week a new proposal that gives the teams what they want.

vectra

enzo7 wrote: »

it was £40m i thought, if they did say £100m and reduce it yearly that would be more realistic.

40m is what the FIA suggested

100m is what the teams are suggesting with a roll down over 3 years I think

smooch71

TheChrisD wrote: »

Jeez, they have a bad start to a year and now they're already trying to find an excuse to complain and threaten to quit...

Sorry for going on another rant but this comment represents the view of someone who clearly knows nothing about Formula 1 or whats going on at the moment.

Are Red Bull having a bad year? They won a race remember.

Who was on pole for Bahrain? That's right, a Toyota.

Both of those teams are pulling out too.

smooch71

Hagar wrote: »

Heard of Motor Racing?

It's a big money business, without the main teams there is no business. Do you really think people will flock to Monaco to watch teams race that didn't win major points last season? There is going to be some serious backroom business this week in Monaco. Don't be too surprised if the F1 promotors suddenly come up with next week a new proposal that gives the teams what they want.

I take your point, I was only being a smart ar$e but I think so were you!

It's not really the promotors, it's the FIA and I really hope you're right. I hope they do back track on this rule and listen to what the teams suggest.

Bear in mind the teams have all offered suggestions as to how to achieve the budget cuts, but gradually and without two sets of rule changes.

I gave an example earlier of what happened to the Indycar World Series. This is a form of motor racing where there was a split because of the ill informed actions of one man.

The big teams went one way, and the small teams got to keep the name and the big race. Both series failed and only now after 13 years have they gotten back together. But the damage was already done.

Hagar

Maybe being a smartar$e is putting it a bit strong. People scoffed at the idea of a new super league at the time just like people are scoffing at the idea of a new level of racing now. It's gun to the head time.

There is a lot of talk on the radio down here about this at the moment, I live about an hour from Monaco, and the consensus is that deals are being done right now behind the scenes and announcements will be made before the next race. The reality is who wants to be the promotor / governing body of a motor sport with only second class teams? Pride will be swallowed and compromises will be made.

My 2c + Vat

smooch71

Hagar wrote: »

Maybe being a smartar$e is putting it a bit strong. People scoffed at the idea of a new super league at the time just like people are scoffing at the idea of a new level of racing now. It's gun to the head time.

There is a lot of talk on the radio down here about this at the moment, I live about an hour from Monaco, and the consensus is that deals are being done right now behind the scenes and announcements will be made before the next race. The reality is who wants to be the promotor / governing body of a motor sport with only second class teams? Pride will be swallowed and compromises will be made.

My 2c + Vat

Well that's encouraging and I hope it is sorted before the next race.

A split is not in anyone's interest.

enzo7

vectra wrote: »

40m is what the FIA suggested

100m is what the teams are suggesting with a roll down over 3 years I think

ya sorry thats what i ment the FIA want £40m cap not the teams.
ya i think the teams would prob agree to a £100m cap with a roll down over 3yrs. i hope!!

vectra

enzo7 wrote: »

ya sorry thats what i ment the FIA want £40m cap not the teams.
ya i think the teams would prob agree to a £100m cap with a roll down over 3yrs. i hope!!

Plus they will NOT agree to a series with 2 sets of rules

Taken from en.f1-live.com

FIA President Max Mosley's meeting with the Formula One Teams' Association has been fixed for Friday.

Amid major teams' threats to withdraw from the sport over the budget caps dispute, we have learned that the crucial meeting will take place in London, also in the presence of F1 Chief Executive Bernie Ecclestone.

Ecclestone had previously backed Mosley's stance on cost-cutting, but on Wednesday he was taking seriously Ferrari's threat to quit at the end of the season. The Briton also believes the famous Italian team is the key to a solution.

"They have been there for 60 years. They are partners of ours.
Click here to find out more!
They are the people we need to take into consideration," said Ecclestone.

"At the moment everyone is hanging on to their apron strings. Sort that out and we will be okay," added the 78-year-old.

TheChrisD

smooch71 wrote: »

Sorry for going on another rant but this comment represents the view of someone who clearly knows nothing about Formula 1 or whats going on at the moment.

The thread was directed at Ferrari, as such the comment was directed at Ferrari.

I know exactly what is going on with the teams complaining about this whole two-tier championship thing, but in my eyes, if they can't drastically cut their costs, then they don't deserve to have technical freedom.

I'd much rather see many smaller teams running under the budget cap, than a few large teams who have enough money to buy their way to to the top.

vectra

TheChrisD wrote: »

I know exactly what is going on with the teams complaining about this whole two-tier championship thing, but in my eyes, if they can't drastically cut their costs, then they don't deserve to have technical freedom.

I'd much rather see many smaller teams running under the budget cap, than a few large teams who have enough money to buy their way to to the top.

Looks as though you dont know as much as you appear to think you do :P

You do realise that the teams running underthe 40M cap are allowed to use a flexi wing which in turn can give them 2 sec. per lap advantage?

Just one issue you may have forgotten to point out

TheChrisD

vectra wrote: »

You do realise that the teams running underthe 40M cap are allowed to use a flexi wing which in turn can give them 2 sec. per lap advantage?

Yes, I did read about that. In fairness, if a team can stick to under 40M a year and still be able to develop everything the regulations say they'll be allowed to do, then by all means let them drive away from the rest!

vectra

TheChrisD wrote: »

Yes, I did read about that. In fairness, if a team can stick to under 40M a year and still be able to develop everything the regulations say they'll be allowed to do, then by all means let them drive away from the rest!

Wasnt it around 50M Jordan had as a budget when he simply could not get his cars to run at any decent rate??

And that was back then when everything was cheaper.

I know I do not want to see mickey mouse teams running around the track

I want proper big teams with proper developement. after all, Developement ans technology is what it is all about..
Isnt it?

Slutmonkey57b

50m was only uncompetitive because other teams were spending 400m.
If everyone is pending 50m then it comes down to competence and engineering.

smooch71

TheChrisD wrote: »

The thread was directed at Ferrari, as such the comment was directed at Ferrari.

I know exactly what is going on with the teams complaining about this whole two-tier championship thing, but in my eyes, if they can't drastically cut their costs, then they don't deserve to have technical freedom.

I'd much rather see many smaller teams running under the budget cap, than a few large teams who have enough money to buy their way to to the top.

But the teams HAVE agreed to cut their costs. A 3 year reduction proposal has been put to the FIA by FOTA but shot down. Mosley really needs to listen to what the teams have to say on this.

I think everyone is in favour of budget cuts but not so drastic and in one
fell swoop and they must apply to everyone.

EvilMonkey

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

50m was only uncompetitive because other teams were spending 400m.
If everyone is pending 50m then it comes down to competence and engineering.

Their is no business (yes f1 team is a business) that can go from spending 400M to 40M in one year.
Ferrari make a profit every year from f1 so why do they need to cut their costs to 40M, why are they been punished because other teams spend more than they can afford especially when customer teams come in and can get a car and engine for a fraction of the cost it takes to develop and build a car yourself.
I realise that in order to be fair to all teams costs need to be reduced and a budget cap is needed but 40M is too low IMO.
Ferrari probably get more than 40M back from Bernie (their special bonus) every year any way. Why not cut the 50% of the profits that Bernie takes out of F1 every year and the bonus Ferrari get and distribute it to the teams evenly, maybe on a scale that gives more to teams that run on a smaller budget then they could afford to run higher than 40M a year. Of course that would involve removing the deal with Bernie and FOM and we know thats not going to happen. But it is wrong that the FIA says they need to cut costs meanwhile every year 50% of the profit f1 makes is creamed off by Bernie.

Hagar

What other sport puts a cap on the investment that can be made by teams?
Would it be acceptable in soccer for instance?

Caps won't work anyway, they will just open up they way for a lot of creative accounting. There would be shell companies selling parts and development services at below cost to the teams to stay under team budgets. It would be impossible to monitor.

ScumLord

Hagar wrote: »

What other sport puts a cap on the investment that can be made by teams?
Would it be acceptable in soccer for instance?

I don't see why there shouldn't be.

Racing is rubbish if the cars aren't side by side battling it out.

vectra

ScumLord wrote: »

Racing is rubbish if the cars aren't side by side battling it out.

Not bringing up past topics but had Brawn & Co. NOT bent the rules this year when they knew quite well what they were doing then the cars would be battling a lot closer than they are now.

Slutmonkey57b

UuUUUUUUUUGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

They did not bend break or violate any rules FOR THE LAST FCKING TIME.

Ferrari would not be battling any closer right now because their car would still be **** and they'd still be leaving their drivers sitting in the pits twiddling their thumbs when they should be out on the track.

McLaren's car would still handle like a dog.

Red Bull would still have the fastest cars on the track (weight adjusted, they have been fastest all year pretty much).

Ross Brawn would still be approximately 100,000 times smarter than 90% of the grid.

vectra

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

UuUUUUUUUUGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

They did not bend break or violate any rules FOR THE LAST FCKING TIME.

Ferrari would not be battling any closer right now because their car would still be **** and they'd still be leaving their drivers sitting in the pits twiddling their thumbs when they should be out on the track.

McLaren's car would still handle like a dog.

Red Bull would still have the fastest cars on the track (weight adjusted, they have been fastest all year pretty much).

Ross Brawn would still be approximately 100,000 times smarter than 90% of the grid.

Wrong

amacachi

Hagar wrote: »

What other sport puts a cap on the investment that can be made by teams?
Would it be acceptable in soccer for instance?

Caps won't work anyway, they will just open up they way for a lot of creative accounting. There would be shell companies selling parts and development services at below cost to the teams to stay under team budgets. It would be impossible to monitor.

Well pretty much all closed-shop professional sports and other open sports have a cap on player's salaries. As F1 is as closed a shop as ya can find I don't see a problem with it.

Cake Man

Hope they're finished....always hated Ferrari cheating [EMAIL="b@stards"]b@stards[/EMAIL]. Esp dat blockhead Schumacher whenhe was around.

vectra

Cake Man wrote: »

Hope they're finished....always hated Ferrari cheating [EMAIL="b@stards"]b@stards[/EMAIL]. Esp dat blockhead Schumacher whenhe was around.

Yeah
True
Ferrari learned a lot from McLaren as how to cheat :rolleyes:

enzo7

Cake Man wrote: »

Hope they're finished....always hated Ferrari cheating b@stards. Esp dat blockhead Schumacher whenhe was around.

whatever you think of schumacher his still a 7 times word champion and deserves respect for that!!!

as for hateing a team thats a bit sad isnt it ??considering its just a sport at the end of the day!

smooch71

Time to stir all this up again.

Mosley has told the FOTA teams to form their own championship if they don't like the new rules the FIA are bulldozing through.

Ferrari have said that their (and the other teams') entries will be invalid if their conditions aren't accepted.

So we're back to square one. We may have a motor racing series called Formula 1 next year, but don't expect to have heard of most of the teams involved.

Mosley seems intent on destroying Formula 1 at all costs.

smooch71

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Ah but in Ferrari`s place will be the mighty March!

I can hardly wait!

Oblomov

Additionally, it is rumoured that junior motor racing outfits Carlin and Manor Motorsport might also have thrown their hats into the 2010 ring, as may have a so far unannounced Italian team.

Alongside current team Williams, already officially signed up with the FIA for 2010 are Prodrive, Lola, USF1, Superfund, March, Campos, Litespeed and Brabham.

Spanish prototype Le Mans sports car team Epsilon Euskadi's Joan Villadelprat confirmed to the Diario AS newspaper on Wednesday that he lodged the 2010 entry one week ago.

So that's twelve teams, two cars per team.. and more than at present... but who are the drivers?

Spanky Max has been heard muttering that Cosworth engines have received orders.

End of all the problems, cheap drivers, all using the same engine.....

An alternative: maybe some more money can be found for A1GP.. all Ferrari formula.. and that has run out of money.

vectra

Oblomov wrote: »

Additionally, it is rumoured that junior motor racing outfits Carlin and Manor Motorsport might also have thrown their hats into the 2010 ring, as may have a so far unannounced Italian team.

Alongside current team Williams, already officially signed up with the FIA for 2010 are Prodrive, Lola, USF1, Superfund, March, Campos, Litespeed and Brabham.

Spanish prototype Le Mans sports car team Epsilon Euskadi's Joan Villadelprat confirmed to the Diario AS newspaper on Wednesday that he lodged the 2010 entry one week ago.

So that's twelve teams, two cars per team.. and more than at present... but who are the drivers?

Spanky Max has been heard muttering that Cosworth engines have received orders.

End of all the problems, cheap drivers, all using the same engine.....

And Spanky will have the cheek to call it F1 :rolleyes:

EvilMonkey

Oblomov wrote: »

Additionally, it is rumoured that junior motor racing outfits Carlin and Manor Motorsport might also have thrown their hats into the 2010 ring, as may have a so far unannounced Italian team.

Alongside current team Williams, already officially signed up with the FIA for 2010 are Prodrive, Lola, USF1, Superfund, March, Campos, Litespeed and Brabham.

Spanish prototype Le Mans sports car team Epsilon Euskadi's Joan Villadelprat confirmed to the Diario AS newspaper on Wednesday that he lodged the 2010 entry one week ago.

So that's twelve teams, two cars per team.. and more than at present... but who are the drivers?

Spanky Max has been heard muttering that Cosworth engines have received orders.

End of all the problems, cheap drivers, all using the same engine.....

An alternative: maybe some more money can be found for A1GP.. all Ferrari formula.. and that has run out of money.

And how would Bernie make money when all the TV deals are ripped up and attendances drop?

The only thing thats taking so long is a solution that makes it look like no one has backed down.