Dept is contesting a sick note?

banquo

I recently submitted a (genuine!) sick note to our department to cover some late assignments. This morning I got a letter through the door from the department:

letter wrote:

The medical certificate you presented to the department, dated (date), does not provide sufficient detail to satisfy the requirements of the Late Submisions Committee. As a matter of priority you must now supply verified details of the frequency of your visits to the doctor since (date) and the specific nature of, and dates of, illness.

This detailed information must be verified by your doctor and submitted to the Department Office on, or before, Monday 18 May 2009 at noon

While I could get dates of doctors appointments, dates and results of tests and probably a even vial of my infected blood, this would time-consuming, expensive and affect my exam results. I'd have to travel around quite a bit to get everything and it's easier to tell them to shag off. Also, I don't like the precedent it sets.

So I want to know:

A) Are they allowed to ask for this information? The student handbook says that we need to submit a medical cert, but not that the dept can require further proof. Then again, there doesn't seem to be any real national law or or departmental policy on this.

Apart from the doctor, who within the college - SU, Academic Advisory Office or otherwise - could I take this up with?

Karoma

c) Futher proof that we were, in fact, ill.

How many of you submitted sick notes? Is there more to this than you're telling?

Contact your SU rep immediately.

banquo

My housemate was also sick, and handed in a similar sick note for the same period of time. It's a viral thing.

I've already contacted the relevent SU rep.

Beau

Thats annoying! My mate always uses sick notes for everything and he has never been questioned. Academic Advisory might help, I dunno really.

JBoyle4eva

Was talking to banquo earlier, and to clarify for Karoma, it was his housemates that became ill as well.

Definitely get in touch with Natasha Caroll in the SU ( vicepresident@nuimsu.com ) or pop round to her office.

Academic Advisory Office: ( http://advisoryoffice.nuim.ie ) Rose and Peter will advise you on this as well, email them, make an appointment to visit them, explain your situation and they might contact your department and tell them you are genuine rather than going through all this.

If neither work, go to the Academic Council and ask them is this ethical.

If I'm honest, a department to ask this just before examinations AND just over month before your final results for 3rd year come out, not ideally the best time to request all this.

banquo

Housemate was also sick, but it's not entirely related.

The real point of this thread was to see if this had happened to anybody else before, or if anyone knew of the specific policy regarding this.

JBoyle4eva

I don't think I've heard of anyone having a sick note being contested, so I've no experience to share with you banquo, just advice

gra26

That's so bizzare. Never heard of that happening before! I know in my Dept the sick notes just get filed away and no questions are asked, presumably as it's coming from a professional. Even the ones that cite something like period pain!

Thomas_S_Hunterson

I seem to recall hearing that a Doctor's note can only be contested in court?

LeixlipRed

Just a note to remind everyone that everyone in the Music Dept can view this thread.

nothing

Surely if you were genuinely sick, and can get the information, then why not just do it? Tell them you're bogged down with study, but you'll get it to them after the exams.

Edit : they may have cottoned on to "Dr Dodge" who hands out medical certs willy-nilly for a fee.

banquo

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Just a note to remind everyone that everyone in the Music Dept can view this thread.

I'm aware of this, and have nothing to hide. Also, I can think of only two lecturers who might be on boards. To the first, I'm sorry I never really got into Trad; to the other, sorry I didn't try that hard for my dissertation. Big wave to you both.

I'd get all the details straight off if I had time, but I don't really. Most of my hours this week are already planned, and they want the details on monday.

Also, the letter was not exactly specific as to what details they want, I can only really speculate.

*Roisin*

I had a friend in last who had a lecturer contact the doctor who signed off her sick note. The lecturer faxed a copy of the submitted sick note through to the Doctor and asked whether it was genuine. The doctor sent a short note back replying that it was.

The lecturer then turned around and questioned the doctor on how someone could be sick for over a week and on the type of illness. Her Doctor replied pretty bluntly that what the lecturer was doing was way beyond her reach, once he has signed something off as her GP, it is a legal document unless questioned in court. It was also completely beyond her rights to question the doctor to try to get him to breach confidential records. The Doctor was seriously unimpressed and even sent the department a letter stating the legal implications of a medical certificate and threatening to report them.

What the Music Department are doing seems a little excessive. I'm sure they have the right to question whether you're sick note is genuine, that you didn't forge it, but I can't see them having the right to question it any further than that unless they wish to take you to court! I suppose it is better that they contacted you directly rather than try to go straight to your GP.

It's also very unfair timing of them, especially with the exams coming up. I think in your position, I'd reply to them stating that you've submitted your medical cert, outline the legality behind the document, state that you're very happy for them to contact your Doctor to check that it is real. I'd also say that as you've met the requirements on your end, that you find your upcoming exams to be more of a pressing matter and that you'd speak to them on the matter, if they wish to pursue it, once you're finished.

I wouldn't be impressed at all and I'd speak to Natasha and Academic Advisory. Have you submitted many sick notes?

*Roisin*

nothing wrote: »

Edit : they may have cottoned on to "Dr Dodge" who hands out medical certs willy-nilly for a fee.

They can cotton on to him all they want, they still can't refuse to accept his notes. He's a registered Doctor and so his sick notes are certified. One Department tried to refuse his notes and were close to receiving a solicitors letter for it. An employer or institution have no right to influence which GP you choose as your own. If they had serious issues with a Doctor, their only recourse would be to report that Doctor.

Got that information from the horse's mouth himself

PrivateEye

Definitely get in touch with Natasha Caroll in the SU ( vicepresident@nuimsu.com ) or pop round to her office.

That would be my 'step 1' too, to be honest.

I'd also probably still be punching holes in the wall, that's incredibly cheeky on the part of any Department. Providing it wasn't written in Crayon and signed by Doctor X you wonder what it means to them regardless.

LeixlipRed

banquo wrote: »

I'm aware of this, and have nothing to hide. Also, I can think of only two lecturers who might be on boards. To the first, I'm sorry I never really got into Trad; to the other, sorry I didn't try that hard for my dissertation. Big wave to you both.

I'd get all the details straight off if I had time, but I don't really. Most of my hours this week are already planned, and they want the details on monday.

Also, the letter was not exactly specific as to what details they want, I can only really speculate.

But you do realise you're shooting yourself in the foot by discussing these things in public? I'm sure everyone in the dept can use a computer.

PeakOutput

LeixlipRed wrote: »

But you do realise you're shooting yourself in the foot by discussing these things in public? I'm sure everyone in the dept can use a computer.

how is he shooting himself in the foot? he has nothing to hide they can read what they want

they either have a right to ask for the info or they dont

if the su is no help call the doctor ask him what your rights are regarding the cert then pass that info onto the department if that is not enough for them worry about taking it further at that stage

banquo

I contacted Natasha, who is awesome.

banquo

LeixlipRed wrote: »

I'm sure everyone in the dept can use a computer.

True. But as I said I've nothing to hide, I'm just looking for a broader circle of opinions.

Also, whatever about this ''Doctor Dodge (?)'' stuff, Corish is an awesome doctor. When I was first getting checked out (over a year ago now) he looked into one of my eyes with the light thingy and said ''Hmm. Tell your girlfriend she has *disease name* and to see a doctor''. And he was right.

Carsinian Thau

I doubt that they have a right to ask for such information. An acknowledgement from your doctor that you were sick should be sufficient for them. It's not like they have the right to pass judgement (or even know about, to a certain extent) your medical history.

Ask your doctor about it to be sure and see what your SU can do about it.

Ostrom

My 2c from dealing with department admin (as tutor and lecturer) for two years - have never heard of this.

Doesn't sound right, doctors word is generally final

banquo

*Roisin* wrote: »

I suppose it is better that they contacted you directly rather than try to go straight to your GP.

Cheers for the long post, Roisin!

Word through the grapevine - from a reliable but unofficial source, but one who I don't want to get in trouble in public - is that the music dept also faxed and rang the doctor. Not 100% an official source (i.e. not Corish) so I can't say for sure, but I'm meeting the doctor tomorrow and I'll find out then if it's true.

It seems to me that a certificate that says ''Not fit for work or college for these dates'' signed by the product of seven years of medical studies is sufficient. In this conversation, the doctor is the only person qualified to determine who is ill and who is not ill and for how long.


Edit: Seems they only want a doctor-signed description of the severity of the illness and dates of visits. Original post updated to reflect this to avoid misrepresentation.

conf101

banquo wrote: »

Edit: Seems they only want a doctor-signed description of the severity of the illness and dates of visits. Original post updated to reflect this to avoid misrepresentation.

Is that still not a bit much to be asking for? Is that info any of their business?

John

conf101 wrote: »

Is that still not a bit much to be asking for? Is that info any of their business?

I don't think they can. Isn't the whole point of a sick note is that the doctor says you're too ill to work/attend college and that's that? Only the doctor is supposed to know what's wrong with you.

banquo

After some investigation, it seems that they can ask, but can also decline.

The major problem for me is getting the info before the monday noon deadline

petals

I wouldn't say a dept are allowed do that! I know none of the doctors notes ever gave alot of information other than stating basic facts of were sick from blah to blah date cos of whatever reason... Anything else is between doctor and patient I'd imagine!

banquo

This is becoming preposterous. It's due tomorrow at noon, no later - that much is made clear. However, the the soonest possible time I could get that information for them is tomorrow morning, which would be fine except I've an exam (9:30 - 11:30) at the same time. I'm sure people are saying ''ah now, you could have got it sooner if you wanted'', but in reality it just has not been possible. To do both I'd have to finish my exam in Rye Hall, run to Corish, queue, see the doctor and describe situation, obtain said information, and hand it in to Logic House. It's just not possible. Warp speed would increase my chances only marginally.

So my options are thus: do the exam and miss the deadline to verify my illness - they will not accept it after the deadline - or skip the exam to hand in my assignments and repeat in august to a cap of 40% in the module, which would seriously screw up my marks. Both options seriously screw up my degree. Also, if I miss his exam and have to repeat doesn't that mean I automatically get a pass degree? I'm not sure on that one.

This is sort of thing I mean when I complain.

JBoyle4eva

Ok, as it's your final year, SIT THE EXAM!!! Being capped at 40% isn't worth skipping it to solve.

At 11:30, get your information. As soon as your GP has given it to you, go to the dept with your exam permit and show that you had your exam to sit. They can't penalise you for having to sit an exam. If they do, I'd go to university level and go to the Academic Council and lodge a concern with them with regards this.

Best of luck tomorrow, if you need someone to bitch about the situation to, I shall be on campus til 4 o'clock.

banquo

This is all having an interesting effect on my blood pressure.

My sincere thanks to all who offered advice.

Beau

I agree with Boyler, concentrate on the exam for now. After that just try and get the info before the end of the day. They won't fcuk with you.

Ostrom

banquo wrote: »

This is all having an interesting effect on my blood pressure.

My sincere thanks to all who offered advice.

This is very strange, I have never heard of anything like this

Cool_CM

How did you get on? In fairness, it is a totally ridiculous situation to be placing a final year student in, especially before/during the exams. Surely technicalities like this can be sorted out after the exams have been sat, doing it beforehand and placing even more pressure on somebody who is about to sit their finals isn't really on at all.

Eric Cartman

make sure you have a copy of the sick note , i didnt get to hand in 2 assignments to an all continuous assesment module last year and i handed in a sick note to the lecturer, he didnt give me the marks and i asked for my sick note back so i could go to the department head, his response "what sick note" , had to repeat the module this year

banquo

Warning: slightly Off Topic.

Funny story. My housemate, since January, has been attending a particular module for his course. The module appears on his moodle page and on his official registration form. It's a typical 60 credit degree.

But here's the thing. Turns out he's been doing one extra module than he was supposed to be doing. Did the exam and everything. Naturally, he doesn't really see the funny side.

@Cartman - that's just awful. There's nothing like an administrative cock-up to totally screw you over.

Michellenman

banquo wrote: »

Warning: slightly Off Topic.

Funny story. My housemate, since January, has been attending a particular module for his course. The module appears on his moodle page and on his official registration form. It's a typical 60 credit degree.

But here's the thing. Turns out he's been doing one extra module than he was supposed to be doing. Did the exam and everything. Naturally, he doesn't really see the funny side.

That is so crappy! How did he not realise?!

porn_star

thought it was the music department when i first read this. i handed in a couple of late assignments at the end of semester one, they were only a few days late. had a death in my family so was in cork the week they were due. had ten percent taken off them for being a late submission, only actually found this out today when i was collecting an essay for this semester and remembered that i hadn't collected one of them...the other two that i handed in late, i got back without any writing on them, the lecturers had kept the ones with the marks written on them, but i presume there was ten percent off of them aswell.
kinda was taken aback when i found out and didn't say anything, but it's been in the back of my mind all day. if i was in any other year i'd probably just forget about it, but being in my final year i'm pretty annoyed about it, i wonder what goes through this committee's mind, when they see something a few days late, the reason being a death and then they think "hey, it's late, may aswell knock ten percent off of it, even though it's a final year essay... let's put a little bit more pressure on". Seems pretty unfair.
I've never had to use a sick cert or anything and have always gotten assignments in on time.
The only other department's policy I know is the English Department's and I think it works much better.. 5% taken off for every day it's late for not being complete or whatever and then if it's late cos of illness you just need a sick cert.

castie

You had a week to go and get it and could not spare 30-40 mins out of one day to go do it? You could of made an evening appointment and not queued at all.

They have the right to request further medical certs if the original cert was either vague OR pertained to an extended period where more visits would have been necessary.

porn_star: Did you hand in the death certificate?

I had to give a death certificate and proof of relation so it would be taken into consideration for UCC a few years back. If they were to just take peoples words or notes from family then the national death rate would be greatly exaggerated.

castie

Eric Cartman wrote: »

make sure you have a copy of the sick note , i didnt get to hand in 2 assignments to an all continuous assesment module last year and i handed in a sick note to the lecturer, he didnt give me the marks and i asked for my sick note back so i could go to the department head, his response "what sick note" , had to repeat the module this year

Thats why your meant to give it to the department secretary or the examinations office. Lecturer probably put it down and forgot all about it. Came to the exam board meeting and no one had anything regarding your sickness so the exam board failed you.

castie

As for questioning medical certificates.
Employers have the right that you be assessed by their own doctors.

The Doctor in question told me after I went to him with a stomach bug that I had extreme food poisoning and wrote a note saying this. If he can tell that by looking at me then hes either got magical powers and is House in disguise.

*Tripper*

The Dept. should have absolutely no right to know what condition you were suffering from if the doctor says you were unfit to complete an assignment. At the end of the day your doctor is the one who knows best not some stuffy auld one sitting in Logic or whatever it's called.

I always thought the reason MOST(not all of course) lecturers were lecturers was because they were completely blinded by there own ignorance and failed badly working in the real world for real companies.

mp3guy

*Tripper* wrote: »

I always thought the reason MOST(not all of course) lecturers were lecturers was because they were completely blinded by there own ignorance and failed badly working in the real world for real companies.

Talk about ****ing LOL. Are you actually serious?

banquo

castie wrote: »

You had a week to go and get it and could not spare 30-40 mins out of one day to go do it? You could of made an evening appointment and not queued at all.

I see your point - I really do - but it's just more complicated than that.

Not really a week. I came home tuesday to find it, wednesday is doctor's day off, thursday I had exams and had to go home to babysit my little sister so she can't take drugs/get pregnant while my mam was away. Friday I had two long exams, I work 10-6 on saturday, sunday the doc is off and it was due monday morning against another 2hr exam.

castie

The practice has evening hours.
If I was in the committees shoes right now I would defo be thinking something was not right.

LeixlipRed

*Tripper* wrote: »

I always thought the reason MOST(not all of course) lecturers were lecturers was because they were completely blinded by there own ignorance and failed badly working in the real world for real companies.

Or it could be their dedication to research and education along with a hefty salary that makes them go down that route??

lordgoat

First off this thread will have done you zero favours, i'd be pissed that they questioned the note but you should have gone to the doctor got the note after your exam and went in and talked to the lecturer saying look i understand wherer you're coming from but this is what happened. Or gone to your SU rep and went through her.

porn_star

castie wrote: »

porn_star: Did you hand in the death certificate?

I had to give a death certificate and proof of relation so it would be taken into consideration for UCC a few years back. If they were to just take peoples words or notes from family then the national death rate would be greatly exaggerated.

nope, I asked before I even handed them in would I need a death certificate so I could get it in time from Cork, but I was told it wasn't required.

pisslips

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Or it could be their dedication to research and education along with a hefty salary that makes them go down that route??

It's not like everyone's gonna be a department head and even then it's probably more about administration and management and reputation.

In fairness the majority would get paid more in industry research but then once people earn a comfortable amount they care less about salary and more about what they're happy doing.

God knows what that other guy was talking about.


As far as the sick note goes, I don't understand why these people get so anal about deadlines. Surely it's better late than never, fair enough you should lose some marks but some lecturers are just ridiculous. I've definitely been in the position where I was getting zero for something whether I did it perfectly or not, because it was so late. That really doesn't make sense, it doesn't incentivise working or learning.

And I thought they cared about standards, well just because something is late doesn't mean it's of less of a standard. i do understand though that if they get too laxed students will walk all over them and it'll be a nightmare to mark but you have to reward late assignments in some way.

Better late than never.

The college is about helping students right?

conf101

pisslips wrote: »

As far as the sick note goes, I don't understand why these people get so anal about deadlines. Surely it's better late than never, fair enough you should lose some marks but some lecturers are just ridiculous. I've definitely been in the position where I was getting zero for something whether I did it perfectly or not, because it was so late. That really doesn't make sense, it doesn't incentivise working or learning.

And I thought they cared about standards, well just because something is late doesn't mean it's of less of a standard. i do understand though that if they get too laxed students will walk all over them and it'll be a nightmare to mark but you have to reward late assignments in some way.

Better late than never.

So you think that working to deadlines is orrelevant then? If departments payed no attention to deadlines then everything would be complete chaos, lecturers don't set deadlines just for the fun of it!!

gra26

So pisslips if you were the one to correct 2500+ assignments at the end of term because every student decided not to hand it in on time and just leave them all til the end of term you'd be delighted to do so?

LeixlipRed

I think what pisslips meant was that fine, have a deadline, but have a punitive scale afterwards. For example, every day you're late knock off 20% or something. Having corrected thousands upon thousands of assignments this year and over the last few years I totally disagree. It's on time or it's not. If it's late, tough luck. The bs excuses people come up with are hilarious sometimes. Some people take offence when you suggest to them that working to a deadline is part of being a student as well. That really riles me.

pisslips

Well i did correct 90x(however many assignments they had over 10 anyway) this year. It's fine by me if they're late so long as it's not too close to the end of the year when the lecturer wants all the grades.I mean it takes y amount of time to correct no matter what time they hand them up and I'm paid for it, so I couldn't care less when I get them really. So long as, as I said, they don't hand them up at the very end of the year.

The only reason I'd say to hand them up every week is for their own sake so that they aren't discouraged by the mountain of work they've put off. I get money to help them all understand but also get the maximum marks they can get, I'm not gonna start punishing people, what do I care? They're essentially my employers.

I don't even want excuses, i just laugh at them and say, "I couldn't care less if you hand it up or not"