Why don't men approach women?

NickNolte

scanlas wrote: »

What do you mean by bitchy?

I don't think I'd call it bitchyness more challenging or sassiness with a smile? If you are getting actual bitchyness from women you're probably coming across creepy or weird and it's something the man needs to address in himself.

An example of the challenging responses women say are?

Is that your chat up line?

Are you gay?

You like to take it up the ass.

What's your next bit?

How many girls have you said that to before?

When a woman says stuff like above she's testing you but most the time she doesn't logically think " I'm gonna test this guy", she just feels compelled to do so, the reason she does it is to see how you respond. To judge the behavour is ridiculous. You have behavours you put in action when someone of perceived lower status behaves in a higher status way. You don't logically realise you are doing it though. You might think " that guy is p*ssing me off" like a 16 year old speaking loudly but if a 50 year old doctor did it it wouldn't bother you as much. So if someone of perceived higher status did that behavour you would be fine with it.



NickNolte you should be more appreciative of women testing men for strength, humans wouldn't have evolved to be where they are today otherwise. How can a woman trust a man to take resposibility for taking care of her and her children when a harmless little woman making a teasing comment can shake his reality. There's more important things than everyone being ultra nice to NickNolte and the rest of the male population. How you react to tests says alot about your character and strenght of reality. The guy who isn't phased is more likely not to be afraid to ask his boss for a raise or negotiate better prices for things etc, ie he is likely to be more resourceful.

Fair enough; I'm happy to concede and agree with you. Irish women aren't bitchy. They're materialistic and status driven. I don't know which is worse to be honest. How about being, you know, friendly and genuine?

scanlas

NickNolte wrote: »

Fair enough; I'm happy to concede and agree with you. Irish women aren't bitchy. They're materialistic and status driven. I don't know which is worse to be honest. How about being, you know, friendly and genuine?

I think you are being harsh on Irish women, I was in the sauna with my friend "T the real deal J" yesterday and he successfully chatted up an Irish girl in the sauna. She was very friendly and genuine. That's just one recent example of countless friendly women we meet. Women like having good emotions just like you and I, and if a woman happens to get good emtions from high status people why should we have a problem with that. Everyone is entitled to follow their happinness. Getting good emotions from helping others or from materialism are both selfish. You help someone because it makes you feel good. There is nothing necessarily wrong with selfishness, it's what drives the world. There are lots of women who behave egotiscally bitchy from all over the world, but when you mention them I think you should also acknowledge the restraint and politeness of a lot of women towards men who are boring and/or annoying the sh*t out of them.

nacho libre

irish_bob wrote: »

nice is often equal to weak and thier is nothing less atractive than being weak ,

not quite true.
some assertive women with a mothering complex tend to be drawn to submissive guys- the type who need someone else to be in charge. however, in the main you are right; confidence attracts people to other people.

so, yes, you could be very attractive to women, but if you don't have any confidence...you usually won't get far. whereas if you are deemed less attractive, but have any of the following attributes; raffish charm, good sense of humour, a rapier wit, the chances are you'll be more successful in the dating game than the guy who, while attractive, comes across as anodyne, lacking pithy, and/or having low self- esteem.

i would agree that if you are not successful with the opposite sex in most cases it's due to your own shortcomings - unless she happens to have unresolved psychological issues with the opposite sex due to a traumatic event in her past.

nacho libre

nacho libre wrote: »

i would agree that if you are not successful with the opposite sex in most cases it's due to your own shortcomings - unless she happens to have unresolved psychological issues with the opposite sex due to a traumatic event in her past.

Or she's just not attracted to the guy... Or she doesn't want to meet anyone and just wants to have fun... or she's waiting until she meets someone she "clicks" with... etc.

There are hundreds of reasons for women not to be interested in guys. At the given moment of the approach, anything can be going through her mind. Any number of reasons not to accept the guys advances. nothing wrong with that. And certainly not necessarily any psychological issues... :rolleyes:

You're passing off responsibility. Both hers, and yours onto something vague. The simple fact is that when you are dealing with another human being it is impossible to judge with any certainty the manner of their response before it happens, and the reasons behind that response. Especially with regards to people who are strangers, which accounts for most approaches.

nacho libre

Deleted User wrote: »

s:

You're passing off responsibility. Both hers, and yours onto something vague. The simple fact is that when you are dealing with another human being it is impossible to judge with any certainty the manner of their response before it happens, and the reasons behind that response. Especially with regards to people who are strangers, which accounts for most approaches.

i don't know where you get the idea i'm passing off responsibility....
of course there are myriad of reasons why a woman might reject a man.
i'm simply saying if a man is constantly rejected then he must look to himself for the reasons why rather than projecting the blame on to someone else.


however, as you say you can't determine the reasons behind a negative reponse from a stranger- with this in mind given the rate of sexual abuse in this country, which does not enter the public domain, it is possible that in some cases confident men are rejected sometimes because some people may well have unresolved trauma. the guy might put the rejection down to the woman being bitchy or up herself. now this is not to say every bitchy woman you encounter is emotionally scarred. though it is likely the bitchiness is a front to mask a lack of confidence.
so to reiterate i'm not saying every time a man is rejected the lady in question must have psychological issues reasons

nacho libre

nacho libre wrote: »

i don't know where you get the idea i'm passing off responsibility....
of course there are myriad of reasons why a woman might reject a man.
i'm simply saying if a man is constantly rejected then he must look to himself for the reasons why rather than projecting the blame on to someone else.

And I agree, he should look to himself for reasons. Even look to the type of women that he tends to approach. Most men, I have found over the years, are unable or afraid to look at themselves critically and determine what they need to change in their lives to become more attractive to the opposite sex (or same sex, if thats their thing). Instead they throw off the responsibility quoting external reasons for the failures of their advances. "Why should I have to change myself. Surely women should accept me for who I am?". Unfortunately for them, women for the most part, have already have had to change to conform to certain social guidelines, and expect men to be able to do the same.

however, as you say you can't determine the reasons behind a negative reponse from a stranger- with this in mind given the rate of sexual abuse in this country which does not enter the public domain it is possible that in some cases confident men are rejected sometimes because some people may well have unresolved trauma. the guy might put the rejection down to the woman being bitchy or up herself. now this is not to say every bitchy woman you encounter is emotionally scarred. though it is likely the bitchiness is a front to mask a lack of confidence.
so to reiterate i'm not saying say every time a man is rejected the lady in question must have psychological issues reasons

I'd say that its quite rare that such rejection has a psychological issue of any meaningful measure.. Everyone has some form of baggage with regards to experiences with the opposite sex. The manner of our society and the way in which we socialise creates friction at some stages in our lives, usually when we're in our teens or early twenties.

If I approach a woman, and she rejects my advances, the it could as easily be that she has a headache from the ozone in the air. The fact is that we don't know the reasons for the rejection. And TBH the reasons don't matter. What matters is that men need to learn not to be tied to the success or failure of the approach. That is what (to women) suggests confidence.

NickNolte

nacho libre wrote: »

if you are deemed less attractive, but have any of the following attributes; raffish charm, good sense of humour, a rapier wit

...money and status.

NickNolte

Deleted User wrote: »

If I approach a woman, and she rejects my advances, the it could as easily be that she has a headache from the ozone in the air. The fact is that we don't know the reasons for the rejection. And TBH the reasons don't matter. What matters is that men need to learn not to be tied to the success or failure of the approach. That is what (to women) suggests confidence.

I've rejected a few women over the years that I wasn't interested in that made advances on me. You know what? I treated them with respect and dignity. You can let someone know you're not interested and not be a complete dick about it. It seems a lot of people become incredibly hostile when they're approached by a member of the opposite sex that they're not interested in. Hmm.

NickNolte

NickNolte wrote: »

...money and status.

The difference being that money and status are beyond most people, whereas the rest are aspects of personality which can be trained/improved upon.

I've rejected a few women over the years that I wasn't interested in that made advances on me. You know what? I treated them with respect and dignity. You can let someone know you're not interested and not be a complete dick about it. It seems a lot of people become incredibly hostile when they're approached by a member of the opposite sex that they're not interested in. Hmm.

I have never been hostile to any woman I've approached over the last 15+ years of being active. Regardless of the responses I've received, there's no point in being hostile. It does neither you good nor the person you've approached. Taking a girl down a peg or two is not necessarily hostile though. It depends on the intent behind the action.

b3t4

sparkplug82 wrote: »

why don't men approach women?

Because they are too busy complaining that women don't approach men.

The most likely symptom is an Irish mammy who did everything for said male.

NickNolte

b3t4 wrote: »

The most likely symptom is an Irish mammy who did everything for said male.

Or the Irish daddy who thinks nobody is good enough for his perfect little princess?

Zombrex

b3t4 wrote: »

Because they are too busy complaining that women don't approach men.

The most likely symptom is an Irish mammy who did everything for said male.

Men worry about approaching women in this day and age. You might get a polite No thank you. Or you might get an embarrassing hissy fit as if you just asked can you rub the girls breasts in jam and lick them off. I asked a girl in Limerick once can I buy you a drink and she said no, f((k off and went over to her friends who all came over to me and told me to f((k off too. That was fun.

I appreciate that Irish women may be sick of men hassling them in night clubs and stuff, fair enough. You don't want to be talked to that is fine. But don't complain then that no one talks to you.

The most likely symptom is an Irish mammy who did everything for said male.

Not really. Sure that's part of it for some. But for most guys I know its because of the nasty experiences they've received in the past either from the women they approached, the woman's friends, or their own friends. I was single and dating for close to 15 years in Ireland (Dublin, Athlone, Thurles, Cork, Mullingar, Galway) before I started living abroad, and there are very few comparisons that can be made with Ireland/UK and the countries I've spent any decent amount of time in.

For myself, I love approaching women in other countries (Australia, China, Japan, France, etc), but in Ireland I can't be bothered. And that's down to the manner of reactions I've received here. But then again, I'm not all that impressed with the princess mentality that Irish women tend to have... I can understand it in Italy or Spain where the women take pride in looking and acting like women, but here in Ireland, its difficult to find a woman that enjoys being a woman, and doesn't seek to compete with men (drinking, crudeness, etc). Difficult but not impossible.

b3t4

Deleted User wrote: »

But for most guys I know its because of the nasty experiences they've received in the past either from the women they approached, the woman's friends, or their own friends.

Try being an Irish female sometime and learning what a nasty experience is. Shoe, other foot. Try it some time.

You'll probably react defensively to the above. Fire away.

How Irish men and Irish women actually end up in a fulfilling relationship together, absolutely, and completely, baffles me at times.

b3t4

b3t4 wrote: »

Try being an Irish female sometime and learning what a nasty experience is. Shoe, other foot. Try it some time.

Which would be difficult since I'm a guy, and plan to stay that way. But honestly, most of my friends are female, and I'm friends with all of my ex's so I'm not ignorant of what they think of Irish men, or rather men in general. But the fact remains, that we're talking about approaching women, not women approaching men. Which happens very very rarely. Which is why I'm suprised at your "Shoe, other foot. Try it some time" comment.

You'll probably react defensively to the above. Fire away.

Why would I? You haven't said anything against me personally. :rolleyes:

How Irish men and Irish women actually end up in a fulfilling relationship together, absolutely, and completely, baffles me at times.

If we're sticking to generalisations then sure, I might agree with you. However, if I think of the Irish couples I know, I can see how it works for them. I haven't been able to stick it myself, but that's just me.

T "real deal" J

NickNolte wrote: »

I've rejected a few women over the years that I wasn't interested in that made advances on me. You know what? I treated them with respect and dignity. You can let someone know you're not interested and not be a complete dick about it. It seems a lot of people become incredibly hostile when they're approached by a member of the opposite sex that they're not interested in. Hmm.

Ah now enough of this rubbish. What is up with this guy? Irish women are actually generally fun and very friendly. 9 out of Irish 10 girls I meet for the 1st time are chatty and polite even if theyre not attracted to you. Its not a big deal chill out.

Think about it from a girls perspective. How many drunk losers come up to her every night or creepy needy guys where it's obvious that they just want to have sex with the girl. She sometimes has to just plainly tell the guy she's not interested to save her time and his time. If the guy is coherent, fun and relaxed she'll feel relaxed and then she can be herself. does this not make sense? this is for all girls not Irish girls. I don't know how you can single out irish girls.

NickNolte wrote: »

Fair enough; I'm happy to concede and agree with you. Irish women aren't bitchy. They're materialistic and status driven. I don't know which is worse to be honest. How about being, you know, friendly and genuine?

Ive met girls i dated after on a train, on the street, behind the till in a shop even in a ****ing sauna in a gym. they were all irish girls....they're genuine, open-minded nice people.

Irish girls materialistic and status driven? im relatively poor. i've been with southside went to private school minted girls and they're just as friendly, cool and open minded as anyone else.my friends would say the same thing...

Anyway how can you say irish girls are particularly bad? every girl is different and of course some can be weird (i met a girl last night with autistic behaviour,but her friend was friendly and bubbly).Girls are fascinating creatures...you certainly can't tar them with the same brush...

thomasmi

ladies you are on thr trail of some wonderful men go back
obvious these men and you are in common with misunderstanding

Call Me Jimmy

what?

scanlas

It's simple really, do you want to be a guy like "T real deal J" who can chat up a so called princess rich girl in the sauna and have her sucking his c**k in his old piece of crap fiesta two days later or do you want to be the kind of guy who blames other people and circumstances for his lack of success with women to cover up his own inadequacies.

The first step to improving with women is to accept the problem is with yourself and not other people or circumstances. So don't go around with lame excuses like " Irish women are bitches so they don't deserve my time etc...". It's ok to be afraid to approach women, don't cover up your fear and insecurity with classic Nicktnoltism excuses otherwise you will never get over your fear. While you are moaning about mean women others are approaching, learning, having fun and f**king those so called mean women. Women need to know you are cool and not pretending to be cool like most men, so they will test you to see how you react. When they know you are cool you will say amazing sides to women you would have never imagined. I approached a posh rathfarnham girl recently who I was expecting to not like me ( I'm still working on my internalizing my beliefs), she was cold initially but I just expressed my self unapologetically and she lit up like a christmas tree. She had a really nice funny personality. I would have never known that with the "irish women are bitches" mentality.

So it's up to you, who would you rather be, "T real deal J" or Nicknolte? The choice is yours.

P.S. "T real deal J", although I slagged your car I appreciate you give me lifts.

Neither TBH. I much prefer my own way which is successful, and doesn't hurt anyone. But thats the beauty of flirting/dating. You can develop your own style which is unique to yourself.

NickNolte

scanlas wrote: »

don't cover up your fear and insecurity with classic Nicktnoltism excuses otherwise you will never get over your fear.

I suppose the fact that I haven't been single for a long time and am currently engaged is lost on you? Don't try and void my argument about the behaviour of some, albeit a notable ratio of, Irish women by labelling me as 'a loser who has no success with women' because I fear you will be missing my point completely.

As klaz says, each to their own. I found the dating game a lot easier by avoiding Irish women altogether. I know that many of my single friends currently do as well. We all have plenty of Irish female friends but a growing number of single Irish guys I know just find Irish women too hostile and unapproachable and opt for foreign women. Indeed, none of them want to be 'set up' or 'socially proofed' by any of their female friends either. It's a bit pathetic that a person can't make up their own mind... and that it matters what their friends think. I won't say that that makes Irish women this, that or the other... it's just the way it is for a lot of young Irish blokes who just want a genuine, friendly and unpretentious partner.

scanlas

If you avoid Irish women and have lots of success with other women fair play for having success with other women. I think people should realise though that they can have success with Irish women, if you are consistently failing with Irish women you are doing something wrong. You should have a friend video tape you approaching Irish and foreign women and try notice the differences. Perhaps you have more nervous tics with Irish women or touch your face more. You may think you are approaching them the same but not realise there are differences. The difference could be that you feel nervous with Irish women but not foreign women, whatever you feel she feels. She'll feel nervous and the pick up is less likely to succeed.

NickNolte

I don't really know how to react to your assumptions to be honest. I've had plenty of success with Irish women back in the day but I haven't really tried for the last 10 years or so (I was mostly in relationships). It strikes me that it's only really been the last 10 years or so that attitudes have changed drastically anyway. I certainly notice it when observing my single mates trying to chat up women. And no, they don't get nervous ticks or any of that nonsense. They're genuine, friendly and outgoing guys... who are increasingly weary of the minority of Irish women who are hostile and aggressive.

The thing about dating is that we all try it at some stage and for most of us when we fail we turn to emulate those friends of ours that succeed. However, for myself, most my friends were in the same situation, and those who had succeeded... were with girls I wouldn't have considered attractive. My friends have always held by the principle that you need to be with a few ugly women first before you get the good looking girls. Now I never approved of such sentiment because firstly I felt i could start & finish with good looking women, and secondly i've never liked giving that level of dishonesty to women, and lastly, because a fair number of guys/girls I know are now married to women/men they originally weren't happy to be with. Don't know how their feelings changed, but they say it did. :rolleyes:

Now.. I have always looked to be with women I found beautiful. And thus, I chased a hell of a lot less women than my mates. And my successes in the early years were a lot less. But then, when I did succeed I was generally happier and my experiences kept me going during the regular droughts. It took until I left Ireland to realise that I just didn't particularly like Irish women. In the space of one year (the year I left to live in Australia), I changed from approaching an average of one girl a month, to having 3-4 dates a week. That's quite a large change. And later when I moved to china, that ratio continued, until I met my current partner, and I'm damned happy to be with her. Because since I've come back to Ireland, I've seen damn few women I've been attracted to, and even those I have spoken to (not even approached, just chatted in a bar/club) have displayed qualities I don't find... attractive. (Lets just say that those qualities were more common in guys, and not particularly great qualities to begin with.)

I don't know how many guys actually need to improve their game. I did all of that with material from Ross Jeffries, David DeAngelo and a number of other people. And since I left Ireland I've used very little of that material beyond the understanding I got of the female mind. I'm extremely confident in my abilities when my desire is there to match my approaches. But, I know an increasing number of guys out there, who will continue to avoid approaching women in Ireland because they just don't want to deal with the attitude. And they don't really have to. There's still quite a large number of foreigner born women in the country, and for anything else the Internet works wonders (once you sift through the freaks, and liars)

scanlas

scanlas wrote: »

If you avoid Irish women and have lots of success with other women fair play for having success with other women. I think people should realise though that they can have success with Irish women, if you are consistently failing with Irish women you are doing something wrong. You should have a friend video tape you approaching Irish and foreign women and try notice the differences. Perhaps you have more nervous tics with Irish women or touch your face more. You may think you are approaching them the same but not realise there are differences. The difference could be that you feel nervous with Irish women but not foreign women, whatever you feel she feels. She'll feel nervous and the pick up is less likely to succeed.

Scanlas... I have a noticeable shaking disorder which affects my whole body. Everyone that speaks to me is aware of it. Irish women think they are being honest by commenting on it (repeatedly). Most foreign women note it once and move on. Now, what does that suggest to you about Irish women?

The simple fact is that my "game" improved immeasurably when i stopped bothering with Irish women. Since then I've "met" women from all over the world. Even met a girl who's worth a few hundred million, and doesn't act like a princess. Its not all down to the guy. Its also comes down to the attitude and expectations that Irish women in general seem to have. You can study and practice to improve your "game" all you want, but until you enjoy the reactions you get from women, it won't matter. Switch from Irish women to foreign women, and you'll notice the difference. You'll also notice that the material which failed with Irish girls, will probably work with foreign women.

scanlas

I can't comment on the shaking disorder because I haven't experienced chatting up women with one. I honestly don't think there's that much difference in approaching foreign women from my experience. You mention enjoying women's reaction, I think that's a bad head space to be in, you don't want your internal state to be affected much by the reaction of the woman whether it's good or bad.

scanlas

scanlas wrote: »

I can't comment on the shaking disorder because I haven't experienced chatting up women with one. I honestly don't think there's that much difference in approaching foreign women from my experience. You mention enjoying women's reaction, I think that's a bad head space to be in, you don't want your internal state to be affected much by the reaction of the woman whether it's good or bad.

The point is to enjoy it regardless of whether its good or bad. There's nothing wrong with not succeeding in an approach. Some of my best female friends were girls I initially approached. However, it depends on the manner of the rejection. There is a massive difference in the types of refusal between Irish women and those women I have met from abroad. Irish women tend to look to sever any connection between you and them, often going to extremes. They seem to feel that they need to be nasty or cause pain to someone to get the message across. However, my experiences with women abroad tend to be more subtle and willing to play (have fun) with you even though you're not getting what you initially wanted.

I mentioned the shakes to highlight a difference in perception between Irish women and most foreigners. The belief that they're not being nasty even when they actually are. Little princesses can't be wrong. They can't be mean. This is not to say that all foreigners are nice and wonderful, but the ratio's are higher towards those that don't judge people on shakes, looks, wealth, etc.

Its important to be separate only in so much that a negative response doesn't shatter your confidence. If your confidence in approaching women is tied to their reactions then thats a bad thing to develop. However, if you can appreciate the beauty of women even when they say no, then you're in the zone.

T "real deal" J

scanlas wrote: »

So it's up to you, who would you rather be, "T real deal J" or Nicknolte? The choice is yours.

his old piece of crap fiesta

P.S. "T real deal J", although I slagged your car I appreciate you give me lifts.

I don't think this is fair on NickNolte here. Let's not be judgemental. I don't know NickNolte he could be a cool guy. I was just disagreeing with what he is saying about Irish women.

I am not happy about the comment about my car. Ford Fiesta is a dependable machine and for the record her car was used, not mine.

Klaz and NickNolte, you are failing to convince me with your argument that Irish women are particularly bad to approach. You know when you meet any girl that she just needs to initially guage you. Foreign girls are no different from irish girls in this respect (foreign being very vauge, some people would say South African girls are whingy nightmares, there's so many nationalities in foreign).

To Irish girls' credit, I think they have good humor. They generally have a similar sort of humor to us (we being irish) and sometimes it's easier to play off them because of the particular isiosyncracies associated with growing up in, living in and going out in dublin. Some of the hottest, bubbliest, funniest girls are irish. are they really that bad!

T real deal J

T real deal J wrote: »

Klaz and NickNolte, you are failing to convince me with your argument that Irish women are particularly bad to approach.

haha.. its ok. Each to their own. For me, approaching Irish girls wasn't particularly enjoyable, but i have other friends that love the dating scene here. It comes down to what you expect from the people you meet.

You know when you meet any girl that she just needs to initially guage you. Foreign girls are no different from irish girls in this respect (foreign being very vauge, some people would say South African girls are whingy nightmares, there's so many nationalities in foreign).

And I'm not saying that they're any different in that regard. I'm saying that they're different in the manner in which they respond when they're not interested. There is a difference.

To Irish girls' credit, I think they have good humor. They generally have a similar sort of humor to us (we being irish) and sometimes it's easier to play off them because of the particular isiosyncracies associated with growing up in, living in and going out in dublin. Some of the hottest, bubbliest, funniest girls are irish. are they really that bad!

I have many Irish female friends... Good friends to have. I just don't appreciate their actions when they're out, approached by a guy who's non-threatening, and obviously good-natured, and the way they respond.. Some Irish women are lovely, and respond in a lovely fashion. Some don't. I'm not seeking to label the entire Irish female sex as being a certain way.

But I'm out of the loop now. No more approaches for me. Very happy with my Chinese girl.

Wibbs

I've said it before and I;ll say it again, Irish men and women are grand. Really good in general. I would also say that a large proportion of each are not good with each other. I would somewhat agree with Klaz as far as the rejection techniques of Irish women, while there are really sound ones, the pains in the arses do stand out. I would say similar about many Irish men.

The way I look at it is this, of all my mates, any who have gone with foreign women have not gone with Irish women since. Not one. A few swear they never would again. They're that clear about it. I know Irish women who say the exact same about Irish men though a little less so. But I suspect that's more because of access than anything else.

Scanlas may have a point too in that if ones expectation is high with a non Irish woman, ones approach is going to be subtly different. I can admit myself that I would be more relaxed dealing with women of a few nationalities other than Irish. As a general thing of course.

I've known some truly bloody wonderful Irish women. A few I count as close friends, but I haven't had a longtermer with an Irish woman in over 15 years. I do think that is more me though. My particular personality doesn't gel so well with the majority of the locals as longterm lovers anyway. TBH I have no clue why as on paper there's little enough obvious difference. As I say that may just be me. I will say that Irish women can have a little to much of the irish mammy control thing going on, which really freaks and repels me. Then again the italian mammy syndrome is strong too.

So I would always be open to someone I was attracted to, regardless of nationality, but it has turned out that for a long time they just happened not to be Irish. Maybe it's simply the novelty. For both of us.

Eve_Dublin

Hello! You're still at it?

Just thought I'd share a few quick stories with you. Was out at the weekend with an English friend I met travelling who visited me for a few days. She has a thing for Irish men...met lots of them travelling and finds them very charming, funny and has a thing for the accent. I would agree but I don't know what was wrong with the men of Dublin on this particular night.

We were outside having a fag and chatting and this guy starts to join in the conversation. Grand. No problems. I go outside for a smoke for the random chats anyway and I chat to anyone. Then he started to get really obnoxious almost straight away hurling abuse at my friend for being English when he heard her accent then proceeded to ask her was she single, could he have her number, where was she going after the pub. A homeless guy walked by and asked us for change and the guy told him to eff-off so at this point myself and my friend blanked him. He continued to interrupt us when we made it very obvious we weren't interested in talking to hime and instead of taking the rejection like a man, he called us "lesbians" and walked off. Smoooooooth!

The guy was clearly hammered and no doubt he had some difficulty remembering what happened the night before. He was obnoxious.

A few minutes later, we were at the bar having a drink and chatting. Neither of us are single but we're both sociable and we talk to anyone. 2 lads approached we chatted away as you do but as soon as they found out we weren't single, they blanked us. When I say they blanked us, they walked off and said nothing even though we were perfectly friendly to them.

On our way to a party from the pub that night, we were approached by 2 lads on the street who started shouting...eehhh..."highly objectionable" comments at us (what they'd like to do to us, commenting on what we were wearing, what we looked like) and followed us all the way up the street to the party and hung around outside STILL shouting at us.

I was embarrassed for the Irish male population that night and my friend was stunned as their behaviour was in total contrast to what she came across travelling.

Isolated incidences but I'm still reeling from how we were treated just because we were two girls on our own who just wanted to have a good night with no hassle. Perhaps they saw us as fair game because we were on our own but their behaviour and their approach was just bizarre. Does this approach usually work for them and why the aggression when they were "rejected" (in my opinion, on justified grounds). Perhaps they were hammered and they would never treat women this way normally but it left me pitying any one in this country looking for "The One" .

If you want to discount my experiences as just my own and not the way it is generally, then fair enough, I would agree but you can't apply double standards when you speak of your own. I'm referring to Nick Nolte and Klaz by the way. Many woman have similar experiences every weekend and it's just not fair to discount these in order to justify your own one-sided generalisations.

Bren1609

Article in the indo today http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/independent-woman/love-sex/guess-what-girls--not-every-man-is-brad-pitt-1826338.html

Apparantley Irish women set the bar too high for themselves...

NickNolte

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Hello! You're still at it?

Just thought I'd share a few quick stories with you. Was out at the weekend with an English friend I met travelling who visited me for a few days. She has a thing for Irish men...met lots of them travelling and finds them very charming, funny and has a thing for the accent. I would agree but I don't know what was wrong with the men of Dublin on this particular night.

We were outside having a fag and chatting and this guy starts to join in the conversation. Grand. No problems. I go outside for a smoke for the random chats anyway and I chat to anyone. Then he started to get really obnoxious almost straight away hurling abuse at my friend for being English when he heard her accent then proceeded to ask her was she single, could he have her number, where was she going after the pub. A homeless guy walked by and asked us for change and the guy told him to eff-off so at this point myself and my friend blanked him. He continued to interrupt us when we made it very obvious we weren't interested in talking to hime and instead of taking the rejection like a man, he called us "lesbians" and walked off. Smoooooooth!

The guy was clearly hammered and no doubt he had some difficulty remembering what happened the night before. He was obnoxious.

A few minutes later, we were at the bar having a drink and chatting. Neither of us are single but we're both sociable and we talk to anyone. 2 lads approached we chatted away as you do but as soon as they found out we weren't single, they blanked us. When I say they blanked us, they walked off and said nothing even though we were perfectly friendly to them.

On our way to a party from the pub that night, we were approached by 2 lads on the street who started shouting...eehhh..."highly objectionable" comments at us (what they'd like to do to us, commenting on what we were wearing, what we looked like) and followed us all the way up the street to the party and hung around outside STILL shouting at us.

I was embarrassed for the Irish male population that night and my friend was stunned as their behaviour was in total contrast to what she came across travelling.

Isolated incidences but I'm still reeling from how we were treated just because we were two girls on our own who just wanted to have a good night with no hassle. Perhaps they saw us as fair game because we were on our own but their behaviour and their approach was just bizarre. Does this approach usually work for them and why the aggression when they were "rejected" (in my opinion, on justified grounds). Perhaps they were hammered and they would never treat women this way normally but it left me pitying any one in this country looking for "The One" .

If you want to discount my experiences as just my own and not the way it is generally, then fair enough, I would agree but you can't apply double standards when you speak of your own. I'm referring to Nick Nolte and Klaz by the way. Many woman have similar experiences every weekend and it's just not fair to discount these in order to justify your own one-sided generalisations.

Reaping and sowing I suppose. Not that it's an excuse for that kind of behaviour.

I think the main problem here is not so much the character of Irish people, but rather the dating culture that we promote. It is the heavy focus on drinking. Now a lot of what I'm going to say rests at the feet of the men that have gone before us, but women promote it also.

We, in Ireland, are proud when people say we drink a lot. In fact, its probably our best known characteristic, followed closely with friendliness. But lets face it, a lot of the friendliness is tied to the drunken behavior. But in regards to the actual dating scene in Ireland, up until maybe 5 years ago, there weren't many venues to meet women outside of the Pub & nightclub. Area's which encourage drinking, and often drinking heavily. Throw in the attitude that drinking creates more confidence, and you have a recipe for pain. Nowadays, there are more accepted venues to meet women, but even now a lot of my friends when going on a first date will pick the pub. Pretty normal by Irish & UK standards.

I really noticed this when I left Ireland properly. When I started meeting girls in cafes, at bus stops or on the street. Places which in Ireland would land you a restraining order. Sure, its changed a bit over the last few years, but its still only a relatively new change here.

Getting to the point, Irish women are used to being approached by drunken guys. And usually Irish guys that haven't stopped at drunken confidence and continued into stupid drunkenness. Which creates a whole ream of experiences that Irish women have had to endure while growing up. Which in turn has turned Irish women somewhat nasty when they've decided not to accept advances. because drunken guys just don't know when to stop, so the girls have learned extreme methods of rejecting. But the problem is that these methods are not just used towards drunken guys, but just about anyone they're not interested in.

Other countries have managed to handle it differently. Sure, there are plenty of drunken people around, but the manner of their dating scene is vastly different. Look at Spain, where drinking is commonplace, even outside before you even get into a club/pub, but there isn't the same methods being used by the women. I can point to plenty of countries in Europe, never mind the rest of the world which match that. Its only seems to be Ireland, the UK, and Australia (to a much lesser degree) that follow the extreme behavior.

So, I'm not seeking to blame Irish women, despite what a few people here seem to think. They've adapted to an environment. Its just not a particularly nice adaptation, and it does have impact on a lot of "innocent" guys out there.

NickNolte

To be fair, Irish women go out and get s**tfaced every single weekend as well as Irish men so I don't think that women can use alcohol as an excuse for misandry or bitchyness.

It's a catch 22 I suppose. Most decent Irish guys I know wouldn't dream of chatting up an Irish girl(s) as they know that they'll either meet hostility or have to jump through silly hoops/be 'evaluated' crassly/not be on an equal pegging. Most drunken lechers have no problem being treated like this on the off-chance that they might score and probably make up the majority of guys who will try to chat women up. So the cycle of defensive women and sleazy men perpetuates.

I think a lot of sensible Irish guys will just give up the 'dating game' in this country and trade the self-proclaimed 'sassy and sophisticated' Irish woman in for an actual classy foreigner who doesn't feel the need to prove herself to the whole world and isn't driven by status, self-interest or entitlement. I did and I couldn't be happier.

MIN2511

tsk tsk this conversation is going on in circles! After 36 pages, we have to accept that our opinions are ours and would not change the way things are done in Ireland!
I have decided to turn ghey! It's cheaper(financially, emotionally & mentally) and there's less drama!

MIN2511

MIN2511 wrote: »

tsk tsk this conversation is going on in circles! After 36 pages, we have to accept that our opinions are ours and would not change the way things are done in Ireland!
I have decided to turn ghey! It's cheaper(financially, emotionally & mentally) and there's less drama!

So we should continue for another 18 pages then?

NickNolte

NickNolte wrote: »

To be fair, Irish women go out and get s**tfaced every single weekend as well as Irish men so I don't think that women can use alcohol as an excuse for misandry or bitchyness.

I'm a guy, and I'm pointing out that its a reasonable factor in why the women do respond in the manner that they do. Guys do get ****faced regularly, and in fact its one of the cornerstones of Irish nightlife that many people believe a night is not a success unless they got drunk. I remember my own teens and 20's as being just that.

Whether or not the women are getting plastered doesn't really matter. They're not making any attempt to do their own approaches, so for the most part guys don't have to fend off drunken advances.

I think a lot of sensible Irish guys will just give up the 'dating game' in this country and trade the self-proclaimed 'sassy and sophisticated' Irish woman in for an actual classy foreigner who doesn't feel the need to prove herself to the whole world and isn't driven by status, self-interest or entitlement. I did and I couldn't be happier.

Not really. The online dating scene has really grown in Ireland over the last few years. And there's quite a few people who swear by it as a means of avoiding the crap that goes on through the traditional means. Sure there are psycho's and liars, but they run the same risks in pubs/clubs. Social networking has grown by leaps and bounds, and its likely to continue.

Many Irish men are perfectly happy with the way things are, and will be perfectly content to continue as before. Its the people who can't see any advantages that will seek other avenues, or just avoid Irish people altogether. This applies to men and women alike.

Franner1

I am a single man in my 20s, I have a good job and am good looking, I know this because I have dated good looking girls and have often be told so by women in everyday life.

I have spent time abroad and found foreign women refreshingly confident and respectful to the men until such time as they felt they were not getting this treatment back.

In the case of the Irish girls respect in a public social setting can only be guaranteed if they know you even loosely, otherwise you will have an uphill battle. Most of women I or my peers approach will treat me with utter disrespect and think that that is ok. On the other hand it is rare that I see my peers treat a woman they are not attracted to in this manner.

These interactions include a complete dismissal of what your saying, and complete disregard for the fact that yes in public place men will aproach you and try to make small talk, and then it is up to the individual to deal with this in an adult civilised manner. Irish women complain that they are out with the girls and get sick of men coming up to them. Well sorry ladies but every single bar in the ****in world works like this, this is the convention, and its something that does not give you licence to be utterly dismissive of the men. Recently I began a conversation with a polish girl in a bar not surprisingly she treated me with a courtesy that extended to the end of our conversation when she left with her friends, no harm done.
I spotted an Irish girl and broke the ice with some small talk she looked at me like I was asking for spare change and walked off. This girl was good looking but so ****in what. I accidently got into a conversation with another really unattractive girl, before i could finish my sentence she informed me she was unavailable. WTF?

I love living in Dublin my friends are here and I find Irish people great fun...but i can honestly say why is it so hard to meet an Irish girl who has some basic ****ing manners.

Girls you know the game, dont make us work so hard, were not the enemy, girls all over the world know the story...why dont you?

SoWatchaWant

I'm an Irish guy, and I'm 21.

Yeah, Irish women are bitchy when you chat 'em up, sometimes. But that's only when they're being chatted up- Lots of my female friends, who are real angels, some of them- use pretty cold put-downs. But this is only when they're sleazed on by a drunken Irishman.

What does that tell you?

Nice guys and sober guys get caught in the crossfire. Oh well.:o

Personally, I just persevere on chatting up women that I see and like. I won't quit and bitch about it in the hopes of reversing the problem.

If I get shot down, I laugh or make a funny comment and walk away with my head held high, and sleaze up the next one.:)

Sorry, I just don't see the point in quitting approaching pretty girls cause sometimes they're bitchy sometimes. Life's too short, ya know?

SoWatchaWant

SoWatchaWant wrote: »

I'm an Irish guy, and I'm 21.

Yeah, Irish women are bitchy when you chat 'em up, sometimes. But that's only when they're being chatted up- Lots of my female friends, who are real angels, some of them- use pretty cold put-downs. But this is only when they're sleazed on by a drunken Irishman.

What does that tell you?

Nice guys and sober guys get caught in the crossfire. Oh well.:o

Personally, I just persevere on chatting up women that I see and like. I won't quit and bitch about it in the hopes of reversing the problem.

If I get shot down, I laugh or make a funny comment and walk away with my head held high, and sleaze up the next one.:)

Sorry, I just don't see the point in quitting approaching pretty girls cause sometimes they're bitchy sometimes. Life's too short, ya know?

Its not about stopping entirely. If you do that, you'll miss out on the truly exceptional Irish women out there that welcome the chance to meet someone new, regardless of whether they're interested in a romantic/intimate setting or just friendship.

But there's nothing wrong with identifying that a problem exists in a society, and talking about it. Ignoring it only allows it to continue and grow worse. And it will grow worse over time. There is a rather large difference in the type of reactions given by girls 10 years ago compared with present day.

If there was a thread up about the dangerous interest of Irish men in getting drunk on Saturday nights, I doubt there would be any problem talking about it. Or a thread asking why there are so many men that are bastards.. Why is there a problem with talking about this? Is it just because its directed at women by men?

T "real deal" J

T real deal J wrote:

I don't think this is fair on NickNolte here. Let's not be judgemental. I don't know NickNolte he could be a cool guy. I was just disagreeing with what he is saying about Irish women.

Firstly i'd like to take back the above, after reading the below rubbish.

NickNolte wrote: »

To be fair, Irish women go out and get s**tfaced every single weekend as well as Irish men so I don't think that women can use alcohol as an excuse for misandry or bitchyness.

I think a lot of sensible Irish guys will just give up the 'dating game' in this country and trade the self-proclaimed 'sassy and sophisticated' Irish woman in for an actual classy foreigner who doesn't feel the need to prove herself to the whole world and isn't driven by status, self-interest or entitlement. I did and I couldn't be happier.

I think perhaps you just don't "get it". To have such a negative view of Irish women...you musn't really have dated/chatted to many Irish girls outside your social circle. They are cool girls who like to spend time with and have sex with fun guys, not needy negative guys.They're no different from foreign girls but they might be slightly more fun. An example of a fun guy is Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon 2...look how he chats up Patsy Kensit...it's fun. One of Scanlas's friends benched pressed a hot irish girl in Diceys on Thurs...he met her 10 mins before...he's fun.

Eve_Dublin wrote:

Isolated incidences but I'm still reeling from how we were treated just because we were two girls on our own who just wanted to have a good night with no hassle. Perhaps they saw us as fair game because we were on our own but their behaviour and their approach was just bizarre. Does this approach usually work for them and why the aggression when they were "rejected" (in my opinion, on justified grounds). Perhaps they were hammered and they would never treat women this way normally but it left me pitying any one in this country looking for "The One" .

Look what this Irish girl has to put up with. Drunk losers. Needy whingers who abuse them and act macho chauvinist drunk when they get rejected. Unfortunately irish men need to get drunk to chat to women. Women can sense that they are not naturally confident. This is great for Scanlas and I because when chatting with girls their drunken male friends sometimes come over "who the f**k are you" and "who is this guy"...getting aggressive. This contrast with our coherent engaging of girls simply highlights our comfort with women. Thanks for writing your illustrative experience Eve. I wouldn't walk away from you (having a boyfriend) if our conversation was interesting and we're having fun.

Klaz wrote:

I really noticed this when I left Ireland properly. When I started meeting girls in cafes, at bus stops or on the street. Places which in Ireland would land you a restraining order. Sure, its changed a bit over the last few years, but its still only a relatively new change here.

Klaz, i just don't know where you get this stuff. Out of the last 10 dates i've been on, id say met 6 in such places...on a train...on the street...girl behind a deli...a waitress etc. restraining order? some of the girls i met were foreign but the irish girls were just as receptive...

Franner1 wrote:

I spotted an Irish girl and broke the ice with some small talk she looked at me like I was asking for spare change and walked off. This girl was good looking but so ****in what. I accidently got into a conversation with another really unattractive girl, before i could finish my sentence she informed me she was unavailable. WTF?

Franner it's good to see youre chatting to a few girls. Next time you see that hot girl actually do ask her for spare change. Ask her for 20c, because you nearly have enough change to buy a pint see what she says back...be playful..I get rejected all the time just like what you described there. Obviously if im not attactive enough at that time, she'll blow me out, I don't blame the girl....although I have to admit its hilarious when an ugly cow blows you out..like WTF!

Lads can we please lay off the Irish girls for a while. It's actually far more interesting to examine the various reasons why men don't approach women per-se. And lads, we've all been in long term serious relationships...that doesn't necessarily mean theyre fun or better than being single....but this is off the point...apologies

starbelgrade

I would approach women, but my wife won't let me.

T real deal J

T real deal J wrote: »

Klaz, i just don't know where you get this stuff. Out of the last 10 dates i've been on, id say met 6 in such places...on a train...on the street...girl behind a deli...a waitress etc. restraining order? some of the girls i met were foreign but the irish girls were just as receptive...

Fair enough. You've had better success in Ireland than I or my single friends have had.

Lads can we please lay off the Irish girls for a while. It's actually far more interesting to examine the various reasons why men don't approach women per-se.

You don't think the reactions of Irish women has a influence over why Irish men don't approach women? There's only been a few pages of talking about the women's reactions and comparing them to other nationalities. Most of this thread has been covering other aspects. Can't see what the problem is myself. Whats so bad talking about this?

starbelgrade

starbelgrade wrote: »

I would approach women, but my wife won't let me.

Bring her with you. Approaching doesn't mean you have to close the deal by any real measure.

scanlas

Women are attracted to masculine guys.

Getting self esteem from external factors is feminine.

Most men these days have been conditioned to get their self esteem from, external factors such as looks, social alliances, money, job, friends, reactions of women etc. This is a big turn off for women.

Be masculine. Draw your self esteem and confidence from inside. Do what you want when you want because that's what you think you should do. Feel good all the time.

Reality creating perception is feminine. Perception creating reality is masculine.

veryangryman

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

A few minutes later, we were at the bar having a drink and chatting. Neither of us are single but we're both sociable and we talk to anyone. 2 lads approached we chatted away as you do but as soon as they found out we weren't single, they blanked us. When I say they blanked us, they walked off and said nothing even though we were perfectly friendly to them.

Its hard to define the polite amount of time needed to spend with a woman after she tells you she has a boyfriend.

For me, its 11 seconds.

veryangryman

Your infatuation is based on a physical attraction. Talk to the woman and you will realise you have nothing in common

Eve_Dublin

NickNolte wrote: »

Reaping and sowing I suppose. Not that it's an excuse for that kind of behaviour.

No Nick, I'm not even going to argue with you over this. We were very, very friendly and open with this guys (not the two shouting at us walking home...I told them where to go, obviously) as I said in the post but as always, some guys mistake friendliness with flirting. We did NOT deserve this treatment, it was completely uninstigated (even though I know you wish it was to prove your myopic viewpoint). We've both travelled and are used to interacting with people and were happy to chat with anyone that night and that's why we went out!! If we didn't want to talk to anyone else then we would have sat in my flat.

It's a case of you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't. If I wasn't friendly and blanked these guys immediately, I'm a bit*ch but even when I'm friendly, smiley and chatty, they take it as flirting and if I tell them I'm not interested (in a nice way) or that I'm not single (which is the case), then I get blanked or called a lesbian anyway.

Just face the facts that not all Irish men have the whole chatting up women down to a tee and alot of them (all of them this particular night) are just plan obnoxious! My ENGLISH friend was shocked at their behaviour and asked me how I could put up with that.

Anyway, I'll leave ye to it again. These experiences are not a first for me in this country. I don't always go out with another girl alone so I'm not approached as much if I'm with a group or just my OH but if this is what other Irish women have to put up with from other Irish men, then I pity them, I really do.

Take care. I hope you find your answer. Maybe it's more close to home than you think.

Eve_Dublin

veryangryman wrote: »

Its hard to define the polite amount of time needed to spend with a woman after she tells you she has a boyfriend.

For me, its 11 seconds.

No, they didn't even say "Oh okay..fair enough...see ye later...nice talking to you". They said nothing and walked off and pretty much blanked us for the rest of the night. Don't defend this behaviour. It's undefendable. They acted like out and out nobs only out for one thing (which is fine) but making it very, very obvious and being very rude about it. Feck 'em....I'm emigrating!! Yay!