Why don't men approach women?

AARRRGH

irish_bob wrote: »

some have commented that irish women have a very high opinion of themselves , im not sure this is true , in fact i think the opposite is the case and a lot of them are very insecure which might explain why so many of them are so hostile to recieving compliments

I agree completely.

A truely happy person who liked themselves would not get nasty simply because someone wants to speak to them. Or at least 'someone not good enough for them' wants to speak to them.

lifelonglufc

The success rate of a nice fella approaching a nice girl and she being welcoming is probably quite low in my opinion!

Now, why I say this is because of a number of reasons;

1) It's hard to find nice girls that sit together and would admire a fella for approaching them! (that's not me saying all girls are b**ches, most girls tend to regard themselves so highly that they get a kick out of rejecting a fella around their friends)

2) Most fellas would find it very hard to approach any girl because of they're fear of rejection, that would be a male problem!

3) The reason this fear is there is because of previous occasions where a guy has approached a girl but has been cruelly rejected.

4) Fellas don't seem to pick up on signals and all that too well so wouldn't be bothered approaching a girl if he felt she wouldn't be interested.

5) Most Irish girls tend to play the boyfriend card, or some other useless card to get out of talking to the guy that would have the courage to approach her, if shes not interested. So why if a fella has the balls to approach a girl and trying to being genuine and nice, can a girl not be honest and says what she thinks or feels or just be nice?!

All, those points may seem quite anti-feminist but I think I'm just drawing on experience, so forgive me if I seem over the top! I just think most guys are discouraged from previous experiences and then give up the randomly approaching a girl thing! However I'm still only 20 with a lot to learn, i like to think and hope that I'm seen as a genuine nice guy, have had one serious relationship, and enjoyed the single life, but now I think I've found how to approach a girl in my own little way that I feel comfortable with, and that seems to work too cos I got a date this weekend!!

Wagon

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Perhaps the reason that foreign women are more receptive to Irish men's advances are because they're either here on their holidays or else they haven't been here long enough to become jaded and bored by the drunken, messy approach ALOT of Irish men use or perhaps you're still a novelty to them...plus you can get away with the sh**te talk and they'll find it more charming whereas we can see right through it.

But in my experience, you all just seem to assume it's going to be ****e talk before we even open our mouths. for example, in one of my rare ventures into a club i went out of a smoke and was missing a lighter. I walked over to two random girls and said "excuse me, sorry to bother you but have you got a lighter i could borrow?" They looked at me and told me to **** off. Then she called me a **** and put her lighter back into her bag.

Another time a girl walked over to me and asked for a lighter. I said yep and held it out for her after i was done with it. She snorted and said "eh, Im not a whore!" and snatched it off, lit it herself and gave it back to me with a half arsed "thanks" with her back to me. And that's just examples of what can happen in the smoking garden. Woe begone the poor ****er who tries to buy himself a drink at the bar when "the girls" are standing in the way.

We're more wisened up to you at this stage, lads. Us women can smell desperation and there's nothing attractive about a man who has to get completely baloobas before he approaches a girl or the last minute scramble for a bit of how's your father at the end of the night.

Why do you always assume that every man is just wanting to have sex? And is desperate? Is it possible that theres a lot of lads who just want to have a chat? I've heard it happen before.

Put yourself in our shoes...we've had a whole adulthood of this type of approach and it's getting old. Can you imagine having to put up with this again and again and again every bloody weekend? A little tip for Irish men: go easy on the gargle before you chat up a girl in a pub, it's quite simple really.

I'm almost always sober and always only looking for a chat. So are quite a lot of men. But after being told to fornicate yourself with the barge pole for the 12th time you just sort of give up trying and when you realise that you can enjoy nights out again you never bother going back to it.

Saying all that, i'm sorry some of you have had such terrible experiences with Irish women but where in God's name are you drinking? I never come across people like that where I frequent. Nobody has a right to treat anyone that way and myself and any female friends would never treat a man like that, even if we weren't interested. These women are not worth your time but they don't make up the majority, I promise.

I'm willing to bet that isn't true. If you say you're nice to people who approach you then i believe you, but unfortunately the majority of the time you nearly get pissed on. There's certainly nice Irish girls out there but they aren't the majority.

Another thing too, women get pissed on nights out as well. It's not always lads who are the drunken retards. How about the two sexes meet 50/50? Lads won't drink as much and will approach sober. Women won't drink as much and might actually be nice.

coadyj

Because beautiful polish and Asian women have moved to ireland, who haven't got bmi's of 27-30 and are actualy friendly

Wagon

coadyj wrote: »

Because beautiful polish and Asian women have moved to ireland, who haven't got bmi's of 27-30 and are actualy friendly

Don't forget the Italians! Lovely! :cool:

LegacyUser

it's great to see a lot of lads here have the same experiences as me!!! i had a feeling i wasn't the only one....starting to completely give up on irish women....there seems to be more bad ones then good ones. i usually try it on with one or 2 girls on a nite out but i more often then not get a rude reception. Funny cos i'm actually considered a good looking bloke so i really am confused on what the hell is going on. it seems like u just can't win!!!

One of my mates pulls nearly every nite!!! .....his secret is to chat up 30-40 women, usually targeting the most drunkest until he scores one....don't want to go down that road though...far too proud....might start checking out some polish bars!

bogzilla

coadyj wrote: »

Because beautiful polish and Asian women have moved to ireland, who haven't got bmi's of 27-30 and are actualy friendly

hilarious.

factual.

great news!

Mighty_Mouse

Cattle-mart disco bars are a lunatic mix of red-bullnvodka crazies.
Single women indiscreetly, obviously not being obvious "Hunting".
Eager-eyed, over-interested, oompa-loompa tanned, luminous-blonde radioactive-heads who's main aim is to judge your shoes, get the girlie-friends positive eyeballs n gigles and then get the conversation round to job,car, "prospects"....................all within a rapid-fire attack lasting anywhere from 30secs or until she runs out of crazysteam and a naturalish conversation can commence!

Micro-waveable relationships dont exist and if even get started are built on "person-fit", "match", ie tolerability!!! Imo they soon die when the rented BMW loses its charm.

The mistake I reckon most women make for some god unknowable reason is they dont treat blokes as if they would their best male friend or brother or whatever ie normal humanoids.
The art of casual unpaced flirting has been replaced with indiscreet mining for information.
Fock me, strike some sort of empathy with the bloke before asking how many credit cards he owns. I mean rapport seems to be a dead trait to look for in a guy these days.

With a lot of the women I meet out, I leave thinkin in a few years when they start producing good looking man-drones with perfect preselected sperm, single men 27-35 will become redundant.
Outside that braket women seem to get their sanity back.

Wibbs

Maybe it's me or the places I'm going or the women I'm meeting, but I really don't get this kinda thing to nearly the same degree others seem to. OK you get the odd fcukwit, but that's life. I've never had a woman give me grief like say Wagon got with the whole smoking section lighter thing. Quite teh opposite for the most part, I find in general women easy enough to talk to, drunk or sober. Then again I'm an older bloke so maybe that's it? The ones my age are chilled out and the young ones are afraid of their dads and that passes on to me or I look easy to beat up(which I am):D

The way I look at it is, I'm gonna be me regardless of someone being an arse to me. I don't even register it for the most part and I would very very rarely rise to it. If someone doesn't like me for whatever reason, well then that's their prerogative and good luck to them. If someone likes me well then great, but it doesn't make me change who I am for the most part. I say take that attitude. If you offer a light to some lassie outside and she reacts aggressively well just smile at her and walk away. Maybe I'm weirdo but there ya have it.

LegacyUser

WARNING : A sense of humour required/advised to appreciate the following :

Ok, I agree that Irish people in general do have low confidence and don't take compliments well, admittedly esp. women. But I think this could be a good discussion thread, I know it's something that I'm very curious about.

Also on the looks front, yes Ireland is not known for its amazingly hot population, we're not lets all move on!(And yes I do know they're some ridiculously attractive people in this country). We are what we are, and a woman who has a higher bmi may be more attractive than one with a smaller bmi, lets be honest we all understand the phrase "but-her face". Sexual attractiveness comes in every shape and size, as in just because you think she/he resembles a swamp creature doesn't mean every one does, or maybe he/she will meet another swamp creature and go into the sunset and produce swamp creature children.

SO moving back to topic, why don't we "hit" on each other at all. To be honest I think it goes further than hitting on, what's wrong with saying hello and talking to people, esp. if they are a cute member of the opposite sex. I am a single female, I am not completely unattractive, and I am nice to men approach me. I am polite and friendly, and I do like, all people have the capacity to insult or belittle people. And I do on occassion do it BUT only to men who cross the line, and not simply offend or drunkingly "over friendly".

So please why san't we all just be nice, swallow our insecurities and say hello!! Then at least you'll know them so have a legimate reason to belittle/insult them!

Nervous Wreck

^^Agreed, I've never had one of those violent reactions either, it sounds really strange. The worst I've had is someone just refusing to make conversation and giving one word responses to which I lazily, yet quite cheerily, replied "Well! You're fairly boring!" and moved on with my night... Either way, I love chatting to people in bars etc. It's a laugh more than anything else and if anything else comes of it, bonus!


EDIT: That was agreed with Wibbs...

Wagon

Wibbs wrote: »

Maybe it's me or the places I'm going or the women I'm meeting, but I really don't get this kinda thing to nearly the same degree others seem to. OK you get the odd fcukwit, but that's life. I've never had a woman give me grief like say Wagon got with the whole smoking section lighter thing. Quite teh opposite for the most part, I find in general women easy enough to talk to, drunk or sober. Then again I'm an older bloke so maybe that's it? The ones my age are chilled out and the young ones are afraid of their dads and that passes on to me or I look easy to beat up(which I am):D

I'd agree with you on the age thing, older people are more chilled and generally friendlier anyway. And clubs are where you get the most venom. Which i suppose is understandable as there is a lot of muppets in there just looking for a ride so i can understand a girl getting pissed off at that. The thing i hate is that all lads are assumed to be like that and we all get treated like ****e. It's a funny paradox. Women look at men and say "Ah they're all looking for the seks. Desperate ****", and then complain when they don't get approached by anyone.

worded

There are points of a room where if rejected, a lot of people will see the embarrassed male move away on fire. Try and avoid these places.

Generally speaking a central point of a room can be good to meet people I hear.

Or at an early house, near the bar.

nicegirl

A very interesting subject, and I cannot help but express my opinion on this.

Ladies, I am no expert, but I find that going out with one other friend may help you along with attracting men and getting them to approach you. I can totally understand from a man's point of view how intimidating it must be to approach a group of girls, and only possibly wanting to chat up one of them!

You and your two friends do sound like nice girls, and you mentioned that they dress well. Dressing appropriately is in my opinion, is one of the most things a lad will notice about you. If a girl dresses like a "Slut" super short skirt, short top etc they can attract alot of gits, or give out the impression to lads that they are just after sex.

I believe its not only important to dress appropriately, but is how you wear a nice dress, or outfit what I mean is how a girl carries herself, or how a girl can display confidence as she walks.

Smiling whilst walking through a crowd

Taking a little walk around a niteclub/pub by yourself would also make it easier for lads to approach a girl

Thats all I can think of!!

I have been approached by nice lads and some lads I wasn't interested in, and it was great if I liked them, but if a lad approached me that I didn't find attractive I would talk to him for a few minutes, and say it was nice to meet you, or it was nice talking to you. I would never be rude to a lad I wasn't interested in. Put yourselves in a man's shoes, it must take alot of courage to come up and talk to a girl, and it must hurt if some girl tells him to get lost, or something else rude.

I do not get on very well with girls, only girls that are genuinely nice. Alot of irish girls are complete b*tches :mad: and I can totally understand why men wouldn't approach them.



Anyways ladies, I hope that helps!!

Schism

From reading this thread I've come to the conclusion that it can a win win situation for us guys, if you have the right attitude.

Say you pluck up the courage to try and chat up a girl you have your eye on.

If it goes well : Win (for obvious reaons)
If she's nice but not interested : Win, it's still a nice confidence booster
If she's a stone cold bitch : Win, you don't want to associate with her kind anyway.

nicegirl

Like I say it takes alot of courage for any man to go up and talk to a girl, and I cannot understand how a girl can be so rude to a man :mad:

If only all girls were polite, and nice to lads they didn't like, then maybe lads would be a bit more approachable to other girls

wolfric

I'm thinking of a new movement kind of like when people start wearing bands around their wrists or tats or stickers saying the basic message:

Not a bitch/asshole Kind of like a wave in an attempt to bring people closer together by encouraging people to talk to random people in the street on a regular basis. Something like t-shirts with... "its official... i'm certified Not a completly ahole!"

Personally i don't often try to pick up people but i really enjoy talking to them. On the street/bus/bars/clubs walking past me etc i just find it nice to engage with society and glide over diverse interesting people.

I read something quite interesting in a book that said (and i'm powerphrasing here because i've forgotten how they made it so simple and short and yet clear)
When people are in high places, those in lower places look up to them because they want to have a superior position over people at their level. So they aspire to be in that position and when they reach it they become ungenuine and an a-hole who uses the position to assert dominance.
So those who gain this position naturally, use it gracefully and retain their genuine personality but those who just see them up there and aim for it make a big deal out of it once they get it and treat those under unrightfully.

I've seen more friendly supermodels and actors that are easy to approach. This speaks volumes. Personally i find it fun to hang around in clubs and bars but if you're looking for company for gods sake go to a cafe or some activity or a club/society. In my opinion, the chase is attractive but in terms of personal development, the club scene is just a repetitive scene where you show yourself off instead of improving yourself. Its like taking tests every night instead of learning anything good. I've met the most amazing people of my life in day to day life which isn't to say that clubs aren't great but every night? You need to really consider why you're going and what you want from it and from your life.

nicegirl

nicegirl wrote: »

Like I say it takes alot of courage for any man to go up and talk to a girl, and I cannot understand how a girl can be so rude to a man :mad:

If only all girls were polite, and nice to lads they didn't like, then maybe lads would be a bit more approachable to other girls

Yeah I love when women post "but I cant chat a lad up, what if he says no?"
Yeah... welcome to real life.

Wibbs

Schism wrote: »

From reading this thread I've come to the conclusion that it can a win win situation for us guys, if you have the right attitude.

Say you pluck up the courage to try and chat up a girl you have your eye on.

If it goes well : Win (for obvious reaons)
If she's nice but not interested : Win, it's still a nice confidence booster
If she's a stone cold bitch : Win, you don't want to associate with her kind anyway.

+100.

I dunno, a lot of guys need to get over this worry. Every guy has had it at one time or another, but it's pretty much all in the head. It really is.

IMHO the thing is;

1)No woman is special. Not a one. That is until you get to know her and she proves herself to be a nice attractive romantically available interesting person(of course you have to do the same).

2)Don't be a doormat. Doormats are useful for wiping your feet. That's where it begins and ends. If you feel yourself under a compliment and your boundaries are being pushed, refer to number 1.

3) there are a lot of women. Inexhaustible supply indeed and if you want it a pretty inexhaustible supply of sex too. Maybe not with the woman you want, but its easy to get. Again see point 1.

4) further to point 3, if you consistently never have any success in just talking with women, never mind anything else, then the fault lies more with you than them. Te advice "be yourself" is grand but useless, if yourself is boring, toxic and cynical. Look to yourself first. Forget about the "bitches". See where you are going wrong. If you're overly shy and it's not a pathological/phobic issue, then work on that. If it is a pathological/phobic issue, get help. If you think you're too fat/thin whatever well work on that too. To not work on oneself and sit there doing the same thing is ironically enough self indulgent.

5) even if you think you're butt ugly, I guarantee there has been a woman in your past or even your present that fancies you.

6) bite the bullet. You can rail against the inequities of life and moan that it's up to you to do the chasing and sit and do nothing. Or you can accept that and work with it. Píss with the wind not into it.

7) Even if 90% of women were utter bitches(and they're not), that leaves 10 out of 100 that aren't. Seek them out and calmly and with a smile ignore the rest.

8) practice makes perfect.

To the women that complain they don't get approached? I would say that you probably do, but too often they may be drunk or just not your type. Be nice to both. You never know. Men are visual creatures, so look the best you can. Remember, you worry more about that extra 5 pounds than he will. Most men can't tell a woman's clothes size. Men have two clothes sizes in women; "jaysus I would!" or "Not with yours mate!", but you would be surprised how variable that is with different men. Smile more. Chat. Don't assume they're just trying to get into your knickers. OK lets face it they are. And lets face it if you like the look of them you want them to get into your knickers too. It's at the background of all of this dating lark. Big deal. Accept it. Both his and your sexuality on first principles and get the idea out of the way. Then you can get to deal with the guy on other levels. Have fun and you will look like you're having fun and are a fun person to be with. Men in relationships prefer a fun easy going woman, than a pert arse. Trust me pert arses are nice, but you do get used to it. You never get used to a harpy. Again like number 5 for the men, there is and have been men that you know that fancy you.

My 2 cents anyway.

nicegirl

bluewolf wrote: »

Yeah I love when women post "but I cant chat a lad up, what if he says no?"
Yeah... welcome to real life.

I would not have the courage to go and talk to a lad which is why I do what I wrote when I go out, up above. I am fully aware how much courage it would take to go and talk to a girl, which is something I respect in lads. If I don't like someone I talk to them, am polite, and say nice to meet you. Im not some horrible b*tch

LegacyUser

Perhaps the reason that foreign women are more receptive to Irish men's advances are because they're either here on their holidays or else they haven't been here long enough to become jaded and bored by the drunken, messy approach ALOT of Irish men use or perhaps you're still a novelty to them...

I think that's a good example of the uber-cailín attitude right there.

Socioeconomic/novelty issues aside I think it's fair to say that European women are much less abrasive than those in the Anglosphere, in general.

nicegirl

nicegirl wrote: »

I would not have the courage to go and talk to a lad which is why I do what I wrote when I go out, up above. I am fully aware how much courage it would take to go and talk to a girl, which is something I respect in lads. If I don't like someone I talk to them, am polite, and say nice to meet you. Im not some horrible b*tch

I was continuing your point, not aiming that at you

relax

nicegirl

You're grand, no problem I hate nasty b*tches myself though, I keep away from them, don't know how men do it at all

LegacyUser

I never understood guys chatting up girls in pubs/clubs, it seems so degrading and undignified.


Every time you approach a girl you're putting her in a position of tremendous power over you. Then when you get rejected, it's her basically saying "I'm better than you". Now, i don't know about you, but my ego would not be able to take that on a regular basis.Why should i give women such ego boosts without any gaurantee of anything in return?

I see my friends (who are better looking than me) trying and failing week in week out. When i go out, i want to unwind and have fun, not stress myself out.



Once (while off my tits) I was queueing for the cloak room talking to some randomers in front, as you do. While they were being attended to i turned around to talk to the two people behind me, thinking nothing of the fact that they were female.


As soon as i turned around one of them said something really rude and insulting. I was feeling extra confident that night (:D) so i just called them out on it, telling them how rude they were and how that's no way to treat fellow human beings and their response was something along the lines of real men not feeling emotions :mad:.
The thing is, they weren't even good looking, which also pissed me off (at least if i got rejected by a stunner it wouldn't be so bad ).



Another thing i've noticed is that girls can punch well above their weight in a club.Only a small percentage of long term relationships start in clubs. I think guys would be better off keeping their dignity and playing it cool.



and O.P, this is the 21st century, why should they expect guys to take all the risks?
Sorry for the rant.

Wibbs

OK I can see your point. I genuinely can but let me play devils advocate for a time and it is my humble so take it with a pinch of salt if you will...

Unregistered wrote: »

I never understood guys chatting up girls in pubs/clubs, it seems so degrading and undignified.

Maybe but it is the current status quo, such as it is.

Every time you approach a girl you're putting her in a position of tremendous power over you.

Depends entirely how you look at it. You see a woman that physically attracts you and at that stage that's all it is. You go over to see whats what. Why does she suddenly have power over you? You're the one taking the decision to walk over, gauge her reaction and then accept or reject her on the basis of how she reacts. If anything you're the one with the power. The power to make that move.

Then when you get rejected, it's her basically saying "I'm better than you".

I would say that's simply her not seeing what shes missing out on. And that's fine. Maybe you came across badly, you weren't looking or acting your best, or you're simply not her type. Fine I say. On all counts. Though I would work on the coming off badly if that's a consistent issue.

Now, i don't know about you, but my ego would not be able to take that on a regular basis.Why should i give women such ego boosts without any gaurantee of anything in return?

Life has no guarantees. That's the nature of it, so live with it. The only guarantee is that you live it and it ends and you have remarkable control over how you live it until it ends.

I see my friends (who are better looking than me) trying and failing week in week out. When i go out, i want to unwind and have fun, not stress myself out.

Well then do so. Unwind and have fun and forget about everything but who you are and who you want to be and how yu want to act, within yourself. If some woman comes along that plugs into that, well then great. Lucky for you and lucky for her. Otherwise let the rest of the BS go.

Once (while off my tits) I was queueing for the cloak room talking to some randomers in front, as you do. While they were being attended to i turned around to talk to the two people behind me, thinking nothing of the fact that they were female.


As soon as i turned around one of them said something really rude and insulting. I was feeling extra confident that night (:D) so i just called them out on it, telling them how rude they were and how that's no way to treat fellow human beings and their response was something along the lines of real men not feeling emotions :mad:.

And they were right to some degree(here come the flames:s:)), "Real men" feel emotions. Of that there is no doubt. More men than women so far anyway, are the poets and the artists that have publicly reflected the emotions of this world. It wasn't Wilhmena Shakespeare. Emotions are not the issue and the women in that case were saying that, though clumsily. Men may feel emotions and express them, indeed they would not be secure men if they didn't, but what they were trying to say was that men should understand what emotions matter and what emotions should count and what emotions should not be worth a second thought. They were calling you on the latter. Women are very good judges of that and what they were trying to say is that two random lassies in a queue who are being rude are not worthy of that level of emotion from you as a man.

The thing is, they weren't even good looking, which also pissed me off (at least if i got rejected by a stunner it wouldn't be so bad ).

Which makes you just as bad as far as obvious responses go. It would have been easier to take if they were roides? That says as much about you as them. Oh don't get me wrong, nothing against you. I've been there and it took me a fair oul time to see the daftness of it and I'm still working on it to some degree, however small.

Another thing i've noticed is that girls can punch well above their weight in a club.

I agree 100%. Mainly because it's a visual environment and women have that edge as men are more triggered by that. Get those self same women in the cold light of day and you may find far more insecurity than you know how to handle.

Only a small percentage of long term relationships start in clubs. I think guys would be better off keeping their dignity and playing it cool.

agreed.

and O.P, this is the 21st century, why should they expect guys to take all the risks?
Sorry for the rant.

It may be the 21st century, but men and women instinctively know that under the surface it's an older century or centuries at play. We may claim to have equality and in in general life we arguably are approaching that(well some way to go but...), but in the reproductive/mating/dating arena, those old primeval instincts hold more sway than either gender admit to for the most part. Yes there are men and women that exist and thrive outside it, but the majority don't. As I said before, I prefer to go with the flow than against it.

My 2 cents anyhoo.

cloudymouse

If you look at most of the animal kingdom a female is the boss , but when she accepts you, You are the king (or main course) , from stoneage times the strongest got the best but now its all changed , women form packs and you must weather the storm . My advice is if a girl is nasty to you say thank you and good night and if she 's nice to you be nice back and make sure you walk her to her door.

Eve_Dublin

Unregistered wrote: »

I think that's a good example of the uber-cailín attitude right there.

Socioeconomic/novelty issues aside I think it's fair to say that European women are much less abrasive than those in the Anglosphere, in general.

What the hell is an "uber cailin"? You're the one down with the post-tiger lingo, my friend...not me. What does that make you??

Listen, us irish women get a fair amount of vitriolic abuse in this forum and other forums on this website (have a look at After Hours)...some Irish men can't get as good as they give. Case in point above. Everyday I see more and more posts knocking Irish women by men who spend half of their feckin' lives on the internet!

The abuse is unbelievable and if a poster was knocking about these type of remarks in relation to ethnic monorities or the disabled etc. then I'm sure a moderator would ban them but no, we're expected to put up with this cr*p like we've always done. Another good reason why some women might be b****s to men like the ones that come in here and abuse us is because maybe you're just not very nice people, your posts certainly convey that and with our "women's intuition" :rolleyes: , we know. I like and respect most Irish men but if I ever gave some of the men in this forum the cold-shoulder then I think I had a lucky escape, to be honest. Some of the men's attitudes to women in here is disgusting. I know I'm going to get some abuse over what I wrote above but water off a duck's back....bring it on!!

LegacyUser

Lads i can really identify with the posts here.I do go to nightclubs quite alot and i am considered to be good looking but anytime i do try to chat up a girl i normally just get abuse.Im thinking of packing in the whole nightclub scene completely.Irish women are pathetic vain *****.

xIsabelx

veryangryman wrote: »

Millwall, Millwall, you're all really dreadful, and all your girlfriends are unfulfilled and alienated.

WIN!!

Anyone who came over to me and said that would NOT be sent away :P


I've had guys come over to me a couple of times and I have never act ignorant towards them, (even if I'm not interested) because I can imagine how hard it must be for anyone to approach a guy/girl. I could never do it, and I greatly admire anyone who can.

Eve_Dublin

Unregistered wrote: »

Lads i can really identify with the posts here.I do go to nightclubs quite alot and i am considered to be good looking but anytime i do try to chat up a girl i normally just get abuse.Im thinking of packing in the whole nightclub scene completely.Irish women are pathetic vain *****.

As I said before, if this was said against an ethnic minority group, this would not be tolerated in PI. What's the story???

nicegirl

The fact of the matter is that most irish girls are complete b*tches, and thank god i am not one of them. I get on better with lads any day of the week, and only genuinely nice girls that are my friends. Irish girls are cocky, love themselves, and there are only a very few nice irish girls out there. Its so sterotypical that a man goes to chat up a girl but if it was the other way around.....my god the massacre on this forum.
Irish girls need to wake up, and actually take notice of a man, and realise it takes alot of courage to talk to a girl. :mad:If a man is drunk, fair enough he dosn't know what he is saying or doing, but to those lads that are sober irish girls don't be such b*tches and give the lads a break. Put yourself in a man's shoes, and imagine if that was you trying to talk to a man

RedXIV

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

As I said before, if this was said against an ethnic minority group, this would not be tolerated in PI. What's the story???

probably because most of the attacks on ethnic minorities are unjustified and full of hate. Most of this thread is about men and their experiences. I'm not saying all women are horrible, my girlfriend and I met in a pub and she was a saint. But for every one girl i meet who is polite, i meet three who aren't

lydabryant

That's coz they are affraid of women.. it really depends on the aura of the girl if she's showing too much or not at all.

Wagon

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

As I said before, if this was said against an ethnic minority group, this would not be tolerated in PI. What's the story???

Generalising and abusing ethnic groups is normally racism. Hence people should get banned in that case. But saying that you hate approaching women cos most of them from the island have their finger in their hole isn't racism, it's fact.

Eve_Dublin

RedXIV wrote: »

probably because most of the attacks on ethnic minorities are unjustified and full of hate. Most of this thread is about men and their experiences. I'm not saying all women are horrible, my girlfriend and I met in a pub and she was a saint. But for every one girl i meet who is polite, i meet three who aren't

Absolutely. I agree that MOST of the threads on this post are from personal experiences BUT read back on this thread again...some of the comments are sexist and borderline misogynistic. There's people in here making sweeping generalisation about Irish women and calling them insulting names. One comment like that in PI is one comment too many People can only talk from personal experience and that's fine, i've a fair few stories about my experiences with Irish men over the years but I would never come on here and proclaim that all Irish men are b****s as some people have done on this thread. I find them offensive and hurtful and I'm sure a lot of other Irish women reading this feel the same. I thought After Hours was the place for this kind of debate?

Anyway, too early in the morning to be adorning my feminist hat...back to work.

speedboatchase

Well I'd refrain from personal abuse and generalisations, unless you consider saying the "majority" of irish women in nightclubs are up themselves, I'm not saying that all are (thank god) but is definitely is the general feeling of most Irish males I'd say. I honestly think there's a minority of women who just go out to knock back fellas to build up their self esteem, then go home alone feeling completely smug

LegacyUser

RedXIV wrote: »

probably because most of the attacks on ethnic minorities are unjustified and full of hate. Most of this thread is about men and their experiences. I'm not saying all women are horrible, my girlfriend and I met in a pub and she was a saint. But for every one girl i meet who is polite, i meet three who aren't

Many of the same attacks on minorities involve a small number of people extrapolating from their own unfortunate and anomalous experiences to make sweeping generalisations about a much larger group. Sounds a lot like this thread.

There are plenty of fairly vitriolic posts here from men who have skewed viewpoints based on past experiences. It's not that they weren't treated unfairly. But the generalisations are equally unfair. Saying something is "a fact" doesn't make it so.

Calling Irish women abrasive and horrible and then treating them the same way doesn't reflect well on Irish men either.

Wibbs

I would agree that generalisations can be bloody dubious and personally I haven't gotten the kind of responses that many of the men here have, though I have had some and I have certainly seen it in action with others.

I would say that there does seem to be an underlying issue here, on both sides. More than I noticed in my youth that's for sure. And it is on both sides IMHO. Though I would take the tack that it's slightly more on the men's side TBH. Too many men take a knock back badly or don't make an effort in the first place, or seem to think every woman they like the look of is special way before she proves herself. They then go OTT the wrong way and it can become a self fulfilling prophecy.

I am not denying that there are women who are absolute morons when it comes to this stuff and I can well understand why men will end up feeling crappy about this. As I say I have seen it, but it really does depend on your approach to life as a man. The more open you are, the more boundaries you have and act upon, the less crap you will get and take. I see it as a bitch filter. If they act ill mannered or stupid, well then they lose out. Not me.

Eve_Dublin

nicegirl wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that most irish girls are complete b*tches, and thank god i am not one of them. I get on better with lads any day of the week, and only genuinely nice girls that are my friends. Irish girls are cocky, love themselves, and there are only a very few nice irish girls out there. Its so sterotypical that a man goes to chat up a girl but if it was the other way around.....my god the massacre on this forum.
Irish girls need to wake up, and actually take notice of a man, and realise it takes alot of courage to talk to a girl. :mad:If a man is drunk, fair enough he dosn't know what he is saying or doing, but to those lads that are sober irish girls don't be such b*tches and give the lads a break. Put yourself in a man's shoes, and imagine if that was you trying to talk to a man

That's not a particularly "nice" thing to say, Nicegirl. I'm sorry you've had terrible experiences with Irish girls in the past but that's your view. I disagree. I've met plenty of cows in other counrties too, plenty of dagger eyes if so much as walked within a one mile radius of their boyfriends, the kind of behaviour that men are blind to and only women can see. Sometimes we're our own worst enemy and this kind of statement ^ does none of us any good. A bit of solidarity would be nice. You had a post recently where you had an issue with a guy you liked, went out on a few dates with and never called you. If a man posted the same thing on this forum, SOME men would come on here saying how typical this was of Irish women and what a pack of vain, arrogant b****s we were. Sweeping generalisations like this are pure ignorant and stupid and the person only comes across and bigoted and bitter. I find them depressing as hell.

Sorry, just to add, female to female relationships are much more complex than mens but this is a seperate discussion, a feminist discussion. I too find men much easier to talk to initially and have found that this is case, wherever I've been, that getting to know a female as a female takes a bit more time to break down those barriers that we've put up for ourselves but are generally worth it. I've loads of Irish female friends who I adore. I'm sorry this is not the case for you, Nicegirl.

O'Coonassa

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

the kind of behaviour that men are blind to and only women can see.

lol, oh we notice alright don't think for one second we don't. Even when we were children that's how the girls were. That's also one of the reasons why we didn't like them and put worms in their hair

Eve_Dublin

O'Coonassa wrote: »

lol, oh we notice alright don't think for one second we don't. Even when we were children that's how the girls were. That's also one of the reasons why we didn't like them and put worms in their hair

You only see half of it, buddy...believe me!!:eek:

LegacyUser

Wibbs wrote: »

Men may feel emotions and express them, indeed they would not be secure men if they didn't, but what they were trying to say was that men should understand what emotions matter and what emotions should count and what emotions should not be worth a second thought. They were calling you on the latter. Women are very good judges of that and what they were trying to say is that two random lassies in a queue who are being rude are not worthy of that level of emotion from you as a man.

If I'm trying to enjoy my night and this girl says something to the effect of;
"You're a loser, I'm actually insulted that a guy like you could think he has a chance", yes it would get to me. I'd brush it off and pretend i don't care, but deep down a small chip has been taken off my pride. You can't just tell someone not to care about something, however much they'd like to.

This girl was obviously insecure herself, or she wouldn't have felt the need to do what she did.If a guy in a club pointed at her and started saying to his friend "awwwww, look at that minger, you should try her, she's more your standard hahahahaha" would it not be reasonable to expect her to be hurt a little by it?

Yes you can say; people should be able to deal with it, it's only an randomer in a club, it means nothing. In an ideal world we'd all be super secure and no-one would ever get insulted by anything, ever. But we don't live in an ideal world. Most people are (to varying degrees) somewhat insecure. We all have egos, this is normal. We shouldn't go around saying what we like about people and expect them not to care (even though maybe they shouldn't). The same way we shouldn't go around monitoring ourselves to make sure we don't offend super sensitive people. There's a balance, and deliberately saying insults to someone's face is obviously over the line.

It may be the 21st century, but men and women instinctively know that under the surface it's an older century or centuries at play. We may claim to have equality and in in general life we arguably are approaching that(well some way to go but...), but in the reproductive/mating/dating arena, those old primeval instincts hold more sway than either gender admit to for the most part. Yes there are men and women that exist and thrive outside it, but the majority don't. As I said before, I prefer to go with the flow than against it.

No. The whole chatting up girls thing is a horribly formal and contrived affair. Originally humans would have simply become better and better friends with a member of the opposite sex and eventually fallen in love. It would only progress at the rate each person wanted it to progress at. At no point would it be obvious that one person is interested sexually in another unless they had gotten to a stage where they both so close, it was obvious.

Eve_Dublin

Unregistered wrote: »

If I'm trying to enjoy my night and this girl says something to the effect of;
"You're a loser, I'm actually insulted that a guy like you could think he has a chance", yes it would get to me. I'd brush it off and pretend i don't care, but deep down a small chip has been taken off my pride. You can't just tell someone not to care about something, however much they'd like to.

This girl was obviously insecure herself, or she wouldn't have felt the need to do what she did.If a guy in a club pointed at her and started saying to his friend "awwwww, look at that minger, you should try her, she's more your standard hahahahaha" would it not be reasonable to expect her to be hurt a little by it?

Yes you can say; people should be able to deal with it, it's only an randomer in a club, it means nothing. In an ideal world we'd all be super secure and no-one would ever get insulted by anything, ever. But we don't live in an ideal world. Most people are (to varying degrees) somewhat insecure. We all have egos, this is normal. We shouldn't go around saying what we like about people and expect them not to care (even though maybe they shouldn't). The same way we shouldn't go around monitoring ourselves to make sure we don't offend super sensitive people. There's a balance, and deliberately saying insults to someone's face is obviously over the line.

I know this has been said before but really, I'd like to know where the men who have these types of experiences are drinking/clubbing. Anywhere I go there's never that kind of vibe. As Wibbs said, maybe it has something to do with age. I could have been a little b***h when I was in my teens sometimes but I coped the hell on in my 20s (I'm 29). Is it the younger man's approach that provokes this reaction? I just wouldn't have that kind of bite in me anymore and most men, in fact ALL men that do approach me are perfectly respectful and I to them, even if they're talking pure, drunken crap sometimes (I just laugh it off most of the time...you have to have a sense of humour about it). The only time I ever remember having a go at a man was when one grabbed my bum and one of my booobs and I punched him in the face.:mad: This didn't happen in Ireland, by the way. I don't think an Irish man would get away with that over here.

Actually, I found men in other countries were sometimes much more physical in their come-ons (it was harassment) and wouldn't take no for an answer...it was then and then only that I had to tell them to f-off repeatedly. Even if it wasn't physical, it got to the point where they wouldn't leave me alone, as if I'd give in after they wore me down all night and I had to make a stand (to put it mildly). Perhaps that's why some foreign women like the Irish males' approach in comparison to the men in their own countries. Who knows.

Anyway, I digress, my point is that maybe you shouldn't go to the places you're going to and try somewhere new where the women aren't so full of themselves...plenty of places around the country in my experience. If you go to the same kind of places, you're going to meet the same kinds of people so mix it up a bit.

DarkJager

Just reading through this thread and its all so true. I'm sorry if you don't agree with what is being said here Eve Dublin, but are you not starting to see a pattern of something emerging here? That perhaps Irish women aren't so liked or adored by Irish men, simply down to the attitude of the majority of them? As for the foreign women thing; from personal experience numerous times I can tell you they are SO much better, in terms of the maturity to speak like a normal human when approached in a pub or club, and the fact that they haven't bought into this whole "mini beyonce" mindset that seems to be so prevailent in Irish women ("I'm too good for you" etc).

I'll give you a comparison. Last year in May I was due to fly to Southampton for a weekend break with my brother. The night before I left Ireland, I was in a pub minding my own business and simply waiting for my pint at the bar. This makeup caked, glowing orange buffoon of a woman pushed in beside me. I simply threw a glance to see who this ignorant bitch was, and she says "Not tonight buddy" before rolling her eyes to heaven. Feeling insulted by this random encounter with a cretin, I simply replied to her "Not any night of the week honey, not even in your dreams". The incident erked me enough that I simply finished my pint and left. Why waste money in a pub trying to relax, just to be insulted by wannabe beyonces?

The next night, I was in Southampton and naturally decided to hit the pubs to see what its like. Within 10 minutes of coming in the door, a group of 3 girls approached our table, asked our names and where we were from, and shockingly asked if any of us would like a drink? To the men reading this, when have you ever encountered this in Ireland? To say I was shocked would be an understatement. We chatted for the night without any egos getting in the way, had a great laugh in the process and ended up heading to the club together as one group. It was a fantastic night, which I don't think could ever be repeated here.

Now if the women over there are able to do something as simple as asking a man if he'd like a drink and being FRIENDLY, why do you think Irish women haven't copped it? Is it a false belief that they are all model-esque in their appearance, too good for any man to approach them? Is it their friends which manipulate them into delivering insults and put downs to well meaning men, simply to show off their "girl power"? Or is it some twisted perspective, that if they ignore and put down any man who shows the slightest bit of interest, that some chisselled love god is eventually going to come along and sweep them off their feet?

I've personally given up on Irish women, there's only so many times you can put up with this sort of immature and frankly cretinous attitude before you decide "enough is enough". I understand there are good among the bad, but that means picking through the **** to find the diamond, which isn't worth the time in this country. And when there are so many foreign women coming in to the country, that act and behave like emotionally mature women instead of spoilt brats, why would you bother?

AARRRGH

I'll defend the women for a bit.

I'll talk to anyone, so if I'm out in the pub I'll normally make conversation with whoever is near me. It's been years since anyone was rude to me in a pub.

Maybe, just maybe, this is because the first thing I'll say to the person is a compliment. It'll be sincere - I'll find something about them I like and tell them I like it. They always smile and say thanks and are generally open for a chat.

I don't know if this is because I'm older (31) and don't have a desperate look in my eye, or if it's because I'm saying the right thing. Perhaps it's the bars I go to now? Anseo, Sin e, Dice... these would be nice bars with nice people. Maybe if I went to Boomerangs I'd be told to **** off!

Wagon

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I know this has been said before but really, I'd like to know where the men who have these types of experiences are drinking/clubbing.

Clubs. very common in ****holes like Krystal, Break For The Border, Q bar etc... I hate those places for that reason. And the music is complete tripe :pac:

Anywhere I go there's never that kind of vibe. As Wibbs said, maybe it has something to do with age. I could have been a little b***h when I was in my teens sometimes but I coped the hell on in my 20s (I'm 29).

Well then if i met you on a night out you'd probably be sound. I've found that older women, or older people in general, are just sounder. Maybe it's girls in their early 20s. But I'm only 22 and i still know how to be polite to people. I learned basic manners years ago, why should it go out the window just because someone is in a club/pub?

Is it the younger man's approach that provokes this reaction?

Probably. I've seen lads act like complete muppets around a bit of flesh. but not everyone is like that so why get the same reaction?

Actually, I found men in other countries were sometimes much more physical in their come-ons (it was harassment) and wouldn't take no for an answer...it was then and then only that I had to tell them to f-off repeatedly. Even if it wasn't physical, it got to the point where they wouldn't leave me alone, as if I'd give in after they wore me down all night and I had to make a stand (to put it mildly). Perhaps that's why some foreign women like the Irish males' approach in comparison to the men in their own countries. Who knows.

Yes. My girlfriend said that to me about the lads in her country and that they either hadn't a clue or were complete perverts. This is Italy by the way. and ive seen some of the ponciest looking men walking about the place so i reckon that the undignified drunken smily irish man cracking ****e jokes is a more welcome sight. At least we look like men.

Anyway, I digress, my point is that maybe you shouldn't go to the places you're going to and try somewhere new where the women aren't so full of themselves...plenty of places around the country in my experience. If you go to the same kind of places, you're going to meet the same kinds of people so mix it up a bit.

Yeah i agree with this too. I had some nice pubs to frequent where everyone was sound, even the bouncers. clubs are the places to get bitchy behavour the most. but look at DarkJager's post. The same thing happened to me and my mates in a club in Poland. I've never even heard that happen over in Ireland.

Eve_Dublin

DarkJager wrote: »

Just reading through this thread and its all so true. I'm sorry if you don't agree with what is being said here Eve Dublin, but are you not starting to see a pattern of something emerging here? That perhaps Irish women aren't so liked or adored by Irish men, simply down to the attitude of the majority of them? As for the foreign women thing; from personal experience numerous times I can tell you they are SO much better, in terms of the maturity to speak like a normal human when approached in a pub or club, and the fact that they haven't bought into this whole "mini beyonce" mindset that seems to be so prevailent in Irish women ("I'm too good for you" etc).

I'll give you a comparison. Last year in May I was due to fly to Southampton for a weekend break with my brother. The night before I left Ireland, I was in a pub minding my own business and simply waiting for my pint at the bar. This makeup caked, glowing orange buffoon of a woman pushed in beside me. I simply threw a glance to see who this ignorant bitch was, and she says "Not tonight buddy" before rolling her eyes to heaven. Feeling insulted by this random encounter with a cretin, I simply replied to her "Not any night of the week honey, not even in your dreams". The incident erked me enough that I simply finished my pint and left. Why waste money in a pub trying to relax, just to be insulted by wannabe beyonces?

The next night, I was in Southampton and naturally decided to hit the pubs to see what its like. Within 10 minutes of coming in the door, a group of 3 girls approached our table, asked our names and where we were from, and shockingly asked if any of us would like a drink? To the men reading this, when have you ever encountered this in Ireland? To say I was shocked would be an understatement. We chatted for the night without any egos getting in the way, had a great laugh in the process and ended up heading to the club together as one group. It was a fantastic night, which I don't think could ever be repeated here.

Now if the women over there are able to do something as simple as asking a man if he'd like a drink and being FRIENDLY, why do you think Irish women haven't copped it? Is it a false belief that they are all model-esque in their appearance, too good for any man to approach them? Is it their friends which manipulate them into delivering insults and put downs to well meaning men, simply to show off their "girl power"? Or is it some twisted perspective, that if they ignore and put down any man who shows the slightest bit of interest, that some chisselled love god is eventually going to come along and sweep them off their feet?

I've personally given up on Irish women, there's only so many times you can put up with this sort of immature and frankly cretinous attitude before you decide "enough is enough". I understand there are good among the bad, but that means picking through the **** to find the diamond, which isn't worth the time in this country. And when there are so many foreign women coming in to the country, that act and behave like emotionally mature women instead of spoilt brats, why would you bother?

Once again, a personal experience and I'm sorry for your troubles. An exception to the rule. What do you want me to admit? Because I'm an Irish female that I'm a total b***h by default??? Come on man!! I won't admit that because I'm not and either are my friends, my friend's friends, my work colleagues, most women I come across on a daily basis, Irish women I've met travelling, my sisters, my mother, my female cousins (your sisters, cousins, mother, friends etc.)...I'll hardly take the opinion of a few men on an internet forum as a legitimate sample of Irish males. I know the types of girls you're talking about and unlike you lot, I can spot them a mile off and give them a wide berth at all times...but without sounding arrogant...i've travelled a fair bit and lived outside Ireland for four years and I can tell you now, they're everywhere...EVERYWHERE!

People who travel and choose to leave their country for whatever reason to live in another are generally more open-minded. I came across snooty cows in every country, as I said before, but yes, they were better looking...but maybe it's more forgivable for a hottie to be a cow? How superficial. The Irish, as we've established before, are no oil-paintings...women AND men.

I could stoop to your level and play you at your game and start bad mouthing Irish men but really, I'm not that bitter or stupid to make these type of sweeping generalisations based on one or two experiences.

Ah well, I'm emigrating in 3 months so I'll leave ye to your bitterness........a nation of people who hate eachother. And a bit of bad news for you: those hot foreign women are doing a legger as well. Good luck with that, i'm sure you'll be very happy.

DarkJager

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Once again, a personal experience and I'm sorry for your troubles. An exception to the rule. What do you want me to admit? Because I'm an Irish female that I'm a total b***h by default??? Come on man!! I won't admit that because I'm not and either are my friends, my friend's friends, my work colleagues, most women I come across on a daily basis, Irish women I've met travelling, my sisters, my mother, my female cousins (your sisters, cousins, mother, friends etc.)...I'll hardly take the opinion of a few men on an internet forum as a legitimate sample of Irish males. I know the types of girls you're talking about and unlike you lot, I can spot them a mile off and give them a wide berth at all times...but without sounding arrogant...i've travelled a fair bit and lived outside Ireland for four years and I can tell you now, they're everywhere...EVERYWHERE!

People who travel and choose to leave their country for whatever reason to live in another are generally more open-minded. I came across snooty cows in every country, as I said before, but yes, they were better looking...but maybe it's more forgivable for a hottie to be a cow? How superficial. The Irish, as we've established before, are no oil-paintings...women AND men.

I could stoop to your level and play you at your game and start bad mouthing Irish men but really, I'm not that bitter or stupid to make these type of sweeping generalisations based on one or two experiences.

Ah well, I'm emigrating in 3 months so I'll leave ye to your bitterness........a nation of people who hate eachother. And a bit of bad news for you: those hot foreign women are doing a legger as well. Good luck with that, i'm sure you'll be very happy.

I'm emmigrating too

Eve_Dublin

DarkJager wrote: »

I'm emmigrating too

Sweet. Good luck with that, man. You'll discover soon enough as I did that diickheaads have no nation.

Wibbs

Unregistered wrote: »

If I'm trying to enjoy my night and this girl says something to the effect of;
"You're a loser, I'm actually insulted that a guy like you could think he has a chance", yes it would get to me. I'd brush it off and pretend i don't care, but deep down a small chip has been taken off my pride. You can't just tell someone not to care about something, however much they'd like to.

I agree it will affect someone to one degree or other. I am just saying don't show it and attach as little importance as it deserves. I look at it this way, when I was a child other kids might say something to me or me to them and it would hurt. The chatter of children doesn't get to me now and I wouldn't insult a child, so I feel the same way about a situation like this. I also consider my pride my own and only mine to injure. Yes, someone may bruise it, but bruises heal and I have found the areas of my psyche that still need work are the easiest to bruise. Again an area that I work on as I have ownership of that too. Some randomer in a pub, no matter who they are just doesn't get me like that. I wasn't always so, but I learned that the insulted gives the insult energy more than the insulter. I just won't give away that power to anyone. Oh sometimes it has been a struggle to do that, but it's struggle worth pursuing.

This girl was obviously insecure herself, or she wouldn't have felt the need to do what she did.

Mostly yes, or she was drunk or her boyfriend left her or she lost her job or she's not copped on or any number of things. None of which have anything to do with you, so why take offence at it?

Yes you can say; people should be able to deal with it, it's only an randomer in a club, it means nothing. In an ideal world we'd all be super secure and no-one would ever get insulted by anything, ever. But we don't live in an ideal world.

I agree. We don't, but I just feel there's little benefit in not fighting that within me.

Most people are (to varying degrees) somewhat insecure. We all have egos, this is normal. We shouldn't go around saying what we like about people and expect them not to care (even though maybe they shouldn't). The same way we shouldn't go around monitoring ourselves to make sure we don't offend super sensitive people. There's a balance, and deliberately saying insults to someone's face is obviously over the line.

+100, there is a balance. Again I feel I should seek that balance within me as I can do bugger all for someone elses or societies. Unless physical danger to me or mine is in play, I ignore it or walk on by. I dunno maybe I'm not explaining myself too well or I'm just mad. The latter is more likely:D

No. The whole chatting up girls thing is a horribly formal and contrived affair. Originally humans would have simply become better and better friends with a member of the opposite sex and eventually fallen in love. It would only progress at the rate each person wanted it to progress at. At no point would it be obvious that one person is interested sexually in another unless they had gotten to a stage where they both so close, it was obvious.

I'm sorry I'm going to have to strenuously disagree with you on this one and call that a very naive view.

In what universe that happens or happened I really don't know. Every single culture has social contrivances to some degree or other around mating and male female relationships. The vast majority far more than our own culture. Originally humans,(if you go by modern hunter gatherer societies) have very contrived and rigidly formal mating rituals. Choice in many of them is left to the families and not the young men and women. Women in many are seen as ironically both powerful spiritually and chattel, socially auctioned off to the highest bidder. In some societies rape of women is very common and not even considered thus, even by the women. Even our closest animal relatives have highly structured mating rituals. There was no halcyon nirvana and there never has been, outside of movie scripts and wishful thinking.

Indeed your example of men and women becoming better and better friends and then becoming sexual has only even had the chance to happen in very recent times, IE our own. Men and women today(and in the last say 100 years in the west) have far more women and men friends or the opportunities to have them, through the desegregation of the sexes(work, school, socially), than pretty much any other time in history. The halcyon days are here more than ever. The average man(or woman) today has far more sexual partners, romantic partners, friends of the opposite sex at 30 than their great grandparents could have comprehended.

I think those who complain about the contrivance of mating habits only complain because they feel left out of it or are not very good at it. That's cool, if you can plough your own furrow, but if you want an easier life it's better to go with the flow or at least see the flow for what it is.

IMHO this mixing of the sexes while a major step forward has also thrown a spanner in the works that came along for the ride. I see men who are so used to being friends with women, that showing romantic/sexual interest in them is a hard step for them to take and they don't even know how to do it. They get it arseways. They seek to be friends first and lovers as a secondary thing, even when they know from the start that's what they want. They then wonder why the women turn them down more often than not. Or they go all badboy which is equally bad, but at least gets more results.

Yes friends to lovers can happen, but it's a helluva lot rarer than many men seem to think(and threads on here back that up almost weekly. It's a rarer thread started by a woman along those lines). When it does happen the woman has usually filed the guy away as a maybe and down the line decides hes a yes. Or there is a break in contact for a while and the woman sees the guy differently when they meet again. Or they're both very young and feeling out their own sexuality. I can think of very very few where it didn't happen that way.

Funny IMHO in general women don't think like that and I also think for all the romantic terms they may couch the process in they are far more practical and logical about the whole thing. They have a "yes I would", or no "I wouldn't", or "maybe I would" from the get go. The last one being the rarer IME. Women and men are pretty much the same as people. They can do much the same as each other in every field of human endeavour. Even so called male things. There are women that are physically stronger than many men etc. But I do believe in the romantic/sexual/dating arena we are quite different. Yes we may want the same outcome, but we go about it differently for the most part. Not getting that IMHO is where many men(and women) go wrong. And this is where we get conflict where none should be.

I see it this way, when I think of the word girlfriend, I see the very word itself as a blueprint for more successful results in the dating game. The word "girl" comes before "friend". Yes your partner should be your friend, no doubt about it, but men should make themselves more clear about treating her like a potential romantic partner and a woman before you make her a friend. I would say most, or at least many more women think like that. They are attracted to the "boy" before the "friend".

Obviously that's my (longwinded) take, but there you have it.