Why don't men approach women?

beks101

Generalisations are a dangerous and wasteful thing, and I'm sort of with Eve on this one.

Lots of posts, not just in this thread but in many others and also a particular forum (any guesses...) smack of misogyny, and you'll see that in the multi-thanked 'Irish women are b*****s' threads that crop up again and again.

Incidentally one of my first posts was about how I was sick of being single, sick of the pub/club scene, and automatically to one particular (male) poster this seems to translate to me being a hostile b***h who gave guys the cold shoulder all the while moping into my drink in the corner complaining about my singledom...I mean, how many bad experiences do you have to have to develop this rationale about Irish women?

Nothing justifies the type of nasty, insulting and downright mean behaviour by women described in this thread, but to be honest the last time I remember observing this was when I was nineteen and in Coppers.

I'll chat to anyone when I'm out, male or female, and unless I'm groped or verbally assaulted, any guy who approaches me will get a bit of banter and if I'm not interested, I'll politely end the conversation. I've found all of my girl friends to be the exact same.

LegacyUser

Okay...So far we've established that men don't appreciate to be treated badly, insulted or belittled, especially infront of women, REALLY pisses them off and has a negative on their self confidence and pride. We've also learned that women don't like to be harassed by rude men or inappropriately touched. Also saying they're as a group, generally rude and condesending.

..... So..... in a nut shell we've established both the men and women replying in this thread are ... yes, you've guessed it : HUMAN.!!

So now can we please move on from that?..

Juat wanted to say I'm 21 recently single female and have spent a few years abroad, so my experience is a mix of Irish/foreign men, and I've lost track of sleazy men who think parts of my body are there for their amusement, premission not needed. So I have 2 choices, be bitter : alll men are ****'s.. etc, or be an dorrmat and put up with men like this. And I've decided a lil from option A a lil from option B!

Some men are a complete waste of the water, proteins and lipids they're made of, but then again so are some women. But hey, I've long time to get screwed over/insulted/disappointed by people, and some may even interesting ways to do it. ... so if a man wants a polite/fun/flirty conversation bring it on please.. and if a guy wants to be a **** then hey bring it on, It says more about them and nothing about me!...

anyway.. just my 2 cents

NickNolte

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Ah well, I'm emigrating in 3 months so I'll leave ye to your bitterness........a nation of people who hate eachother

I thought it was just the Irish men who hated the minunderstood, convivial Irish women?

To answer the OP's question - men don't approach you because they don't want to risk being cruelly shot down. If being treated like a chump wasn't so endemic in Irish culture then you and your friend would probably get a lot more attention. As it stands, maybe you need to do the chatting up instead of sitting there, giving off subtle signals.

Eve_Dublin

NickNolte wrote: »

I thought it was just the Irish men who hated the minunderstood, convivial Irish women?

To answer the OP's question - men don't approach you because they don't want to risk being cruelly shot down. If being treated like a chump wasn't so endemic in Irish culture then you and your friend would probably get a lot more attention. As it stands, maybe you need to do the chatting up instead of sitting there, giving off subtle signals.

Right, I'm having my last word because we're going round in circles here. Irish men DON'T hate Irish women...YOU and a gaggle of other Irish men on this forum hate Irish women because you were rejected on more than one ocassion and sometimes not very kindly. I'm very sorry for your troubles, I really am but believe me when I say that you're the exception to the rule. Everyday thousands of Irish men are going out with or even marrying Irish women. Some Irish men have a preference for the foreign ladies and that's cool, I personally would have a preference for the foreign (specifically Spanish) gentlemen...it's a matter of taste. If I was rejected so many times, instead of getting all bitter (not an attractive trait for the ladies, by the way) and venting my frustration on an internet forum and proclaiming something stupid like "All Irish women are ugly, b**chy, snotty, arrogant cows", I'd probably have an auld sit down and review my approach. Something is not working for you guys that soooooo many women are treating you this way.

Yes, there are b****s out there as we've established but to have unprovoked bad experiences everytime just doesn't add up for me. It makes no sense. Think about it.I know NOBODY who would treat ANYONE in the way you've described these women's actions. Men are being cruelly shot the down the world over...I've seen it first hand. For example, when I was in Argentina for 5 months, the men were, how do I put this, persistant...women were turning their backs to them, telling them to F-off, putting their hands in their faces but these guys persisted and persisted with the hopes that they could wear them down. When they finally got the message, they'd move onto the next chica and tried their look with her. I'm almost certain Argentinian men aren't bitter over the rejection because they have confidence and security in themselves, much more than Irish men and women have. They can take it on the chin. Maybe you guys should have a long, hard look at yourselves instead of placing the blame on Irish women...you're posts SCREAM of insecurity and bitterness.

And to call Irish women arrogant and vain is just ridiculous. I love my fellow womens in this country but we're not half as secure in ourselves as foreign women for a variety of cultural reasons (same with the men) and comments like the ones made on this thread don't do any of us any good. Be a bit kinder and more understanding instead of knocking eachother (because we're all Irish after all) and we might get somewhere.

Oh and by the way, the men who get the most women are the ones who actually LIKE women...judging from some of the misogynistic posts on this thread, it's perfectly clear why you guys are not a "hit with the ladies".

NickNolte

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Right, I'm having my last word because we're going round in circles here. Irish men DON'T hate Irish women...YOU and a gaggle of other Irish men on this forum hate Irish women because you were rejected on more than one ocassion and sometimes not very kindly.

Not really. I've never really been the chat-up type myself. I've seen plenty of my mates being shot down over the years by what can only be described as jaw-dropping hostility and bitchyness.

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

If I was rejected so many times, instead of getting all bitter (not an attractive trait for the ladies, by the way) and venting my frustration on an internet forum and proclaiming something stupid like "All Irish women are ugly, b**chy, snotty, arrogant cows", I'd probably have an auld sit down and review my approach. Something is not working for you guys that soooooo many women are treating you this way.

1) I'm in a relationship. 2) I am still of the opinion that a large percentage of Irish women are extremely stuck up, self-important, socially aggressive and bitchy. Obviously it's a gross generalisation but I wonder why I don't see as much of it when I'm abroad.

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Yes, there are b****s out there as we've established but to have unprovoked bad experiences everytime just doesn't add up for me. It makes no sense. Think about it.I know NOBODY who would treat ANYONE in the way you've described these women's actions. Men are being cruelly shot the down the world over...I've seen it first hand.

Which is it? Everywhere except Ireland now? You're all over the place with your argument.

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

They can take it on the chin. Maybe you guys should have a long, hard look at yourselves instead of placing the blame on Irish women

You don't strike me as the type who would advocate that Irish men turn into persistent, harrassing sleazebags.

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

...you're posts SCREAM of insecurity and bitterness.

Hey, I'm simply saying what I see every odd weekend. It honestly doesn't bother me that much how a proportion of Irish girls want to behave on their night's out. My other half (and many other foreign girls I know) have pretty much the same opinion of Irish women. Are they insecure and bitter too? Or are we all just avoiding the elephant in the room here?

I'm perfectly happy to concede that it's a minority of Irish women giving the majority a bad name but the fact of the matter is that it's still endemic.

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Be a bit kinder and more understanding instead of knocking eachother

I'd agree with you but unfortunately you don't see a whole load of good will in a country filled with pissed up, self-important, sarcastic, cynical blaggards (of both sexes). Such is life.

Eve_Dublin

NickNolte wrote: »

Not really. I've never really been the chat-up type myself. I've seen plenty of my mates being shot down over the years by what can only be described as jaw-dropping hostility and bitchyness.

Again, personal experiences but only a sample of a large population of Irish women. I could go into the amount of idiot Irish men I've met in my lifetime, home and abroad but again, I've enough cop on to realise these are the exception.

1) I'm in a relationship. 2) I am still of the opinion that a large percentage of Irish women are extremely stuck up, self-important, socially aggressive and bitchy. Obviously it's a gross generalisation but I wonder why I don't see as much of it when I'm abroad.

Where have you been living abroad exactly? Can you be more specific? To say "abroad" your saying everywhere BUT Ireland?? I've lived in a fair few countries myself and I can honestly say I've come across this type of attitude everywhere I've been. I've come across men from those countries complain about the women of their countries. Aussie men who despise Aussie women and think they're aggressive and loud, Swiss men complaining of Swiss girls being cold, German men complaining about how German women are incapable of letting go and having a laugh, Argentinian men complaining about Argentinian women being competitive and snooty, Peruvian men complaining how the women just want their money, English men complaining how women from England are no craic, American men complaining how American girls are superficial...etc etc....I really could go on but these men were only a sample of the population.

Which is it? Everywhere except Ireland now? You're all over the place with your argument.

Edit: Okay, I get your point now. No, I'm not claiming that this doesn't go on in Ireland, that's not what I said if you read back on my previous posts but if I'm abroad, I tend to go to the types of clubs/bars that I wouldn't frequent because generally I've no idea where to go, intially. I know Dublin well...I know where to go avoid the nobs, male and female and I know where to go to meet crowds in and around my own age, who generally wouldn't carry on like this as they've grown up and have a bit more cop on. My point is it happens the world over...of COURSE it does. NOT just here in Ireland...there's been a-holes since the beginning of time but it takes one to know one and they tend to hang out together in the same places and can easily be avoided.

You don't strike me as the type who would advocate that Irish men turn into persistent, harrassing sleazebags.

Actually, I found Argentinian men charming in their approach to a point, persistant but charming and after a while, it would become annoying. I wouldn't describe them as harassing sleazebags at all...that's why I lived there for 5 months but they got treated like pieces of poo by some of the loacl women. I saw this first hand.

Hey, I'm simply saying what I see every odd weekend. It honestly doesn't bother me that much how a proportion of Irish girls want to behave on their night's out. My other half (and many other foreign girls I know) have pretty much the same opinion of Irish women. Are they insecure and bitter too? Or are we all just avoiding the elephant in the room here?

And I was making the same observations in other countries as well. Some of the ladies were cold b***s but again, I was basing my opinions on a few women. Stupidy on my part.

I'm perfectly happy to concede that it's a minority of Irish women giving the majority a bad name but the fact of the matter is that it's still endemic.

Thank you. That was my point...it's only a minority. Maybe I can give people tips on where to go to avoid these types...PM me if you want to know...In all honesty, I never come across them.

I'd agree with you but unfortunately you don't see a whole load of good will in a country filled with pissed up, self-important, sarcastic, cynical blaggards (of both sexes). Such is life.

Grand. Fine. Lets keep on knocking eachother for all eternity. It never gets boring and is great for our national psyche.

Sorry, not an IT expert...maybe a mod can fix this?

LegacyUser

I'm totally in agreement with Eve. I do not know any women who behave like this and certainly dont myself. On the other hand I've been on the receiving end of many nasty comments from Irish men over the years.

Do I write them all off on this basis? No. There are d1ckheads everywhere.

It smacks of bitterness tbh. Theres something wrong with this mentality on here. And its all over boards.

LegacyUser

I have read through this thread and i have to say I have to agree with a lot of the guys here. Saying that I think there is a middle ground between what they are saying and what Eve-Dublin is saying. All Irish women are not not arrogant or stuck-up, thats a complete generalisation. If that was the case none of them would ever get married to Irish men, which is obviously false.

What I have found however is that they can become arrogant, rude and stuck-up when they go out. Several times I have been out with friends, both male and female, and when one of the girls is approached by a guy she will dismiss him completely with some biting comment. Now these are girls that are usually very down to earth, nice and polite, but it just seems that this is how they deal with being approached by men in bars.

I feel kind of backed up in this by comments made to me by foreign guys who I met when studying in college. They all said that Irish women are a a whole lot of fun, great to hang out and easy to get on with...once you are introduced and you get to know them. But woe betide any man who tries to approach one randomly, i have many times been told that Irish women are unapproachable, and never been told the opposite so yes it is anecdotal, but supported by similar anecdotes from a wide range of people.

So perhaps its just a psychological thing, that Irish women get too defensive while out and ignore their usual 'nice' selves. There are plenty of better ways of showing your disinterest, they may take a while longer but they don't involve hurting the feeling of a guy who is already going out on a limb.

Just my 2c

Wibbs

I would agree with the last poster and like him I've heard way too many men, both local and not say exactly the same thing. IE Irish women are grand, but tend to be very difficult to approach and often harsh in their responses. While as I said I don't get the harsh thing much I would say approach would be harder than in some other cultures. So maybe I don't get the harshness as I would rarely approach a woman cold in Ireland. I have done in other countries though and would feel much more confident in doing so as far as bad reaction goes.

Eve_Dublin

Unregistered wrote: »

I have read through this thread and i have to say I have to agree with a lot of the guys here. Saying that I think there is a middle ground between what they are saying and what Eve-Dublin is saying. All Irish women are not not arrogant or stuck-up, thats a complete generalisation. If that was the case none of them would ever get married to Irish men, which is obviously false.

What I have found however is that they can become arrogant, rude and stuck-up when they go out. Several times I have been out with friends, both male and female, and when one of the girls is approached by a guy she will dismiss him completely with some biting comment. Now these are girls that are usually very down to earth, nice and polite, but it just seems that this is how they deal with being approached by men in bars.

I feel kind of backed up in this by comments made to me by foreign guys who I met when studying in college. They all said that Irish women are a a whole lot of fun, great to hang out and easy to get on with...once you are introduced and you get to know them. But woe betide any man who tries to approach one randomly, i have many times been told that Irish women are unapproachable, and never been told the opposite so yes it is anecdotal, but supported by similar anecdotes from a wide range of people.

So perhaps its just a psychological thing, that Irish women get too defensive while out and ignore their usual 'nice' selves. There are plenty of better ways of showing your disinterest, they may take a while longer but they don't involve hurting the feeling of a guy who is already going out on a limb.

Just my 2c

Hmmm. Right. Okay...I think I agree with what your saying here to a point, actually, and I know I might be accused of back-tracking in my argument but I'm not so stubborn that I can't be swayed by a well thought out argument like this instead of massive sweeping generalisations. I'll admit, Irish women can be tough cookies in comparison to foreign women, I know I can be myself (although I'm never a b***h). Is there a possibility that this can be miscontrued as b****ness?? In fairness, i'm sure you've observed yourself that SOME Irish men turn into drunken nobs at the weekend...no better than the drunken, b***y,arrogant Irish girls.

Another thing, is it fair to compare the social lives of the Irish to other countries? I think we might be the only country (with the exception of the British) that go and get absolutely baloobas at weekends. In fairness, alot of us go out and get pretty mouldy drunk and things can get very messy. Perhaps are harshness is necessary in this type of environment...no one is themself after a heap of pints. It's a pity all our chatting-up has to go on under the haze of a lot alcohol. I come out of pubs and see everyone puking on streets, crying, shouting and I wonder where they've been..which bars and clubs. I could never relate to that side of Saturday night in Ireland because I never knew where the hell it was going on.

Maybe the big problem here is the amount of alcohol consumed by the Irish people. I think when you leave the country and you come back, you realise how bad things really are here. It's messy messy messy.Drink can bring out a horrible side to all of us. Maybe this is the REAL elephant in the corner?

Interesting debate though, no? Maybe we'll get to the bottom of this yet!

LegacyUser

Could be hard to get to the bottom of Eve, mostly cuz I think its a bit of a chicken-and-egg argument. Perhaps it is just Ireland, I dont have enough experience to say otherwise, but Irish men seem to think they need alcohol to survive the put-down they get when they approach girls; girls give a harsh put-down because they are tired of drunken irish guys. Which came first is just academic at this point.

Eve_Dublin

Just to add (I really should do some work instead of writing on here..)I think the foreigners are generally shocked at best by how much we all drink (sweeping generalisation?). I met alot of foreign ladies who couldn't understand why Irish men had to get so drunk to approach them, they couldn't get their heads round it and I know a fair few of them didn't like it. Equally, I know a lot of foreign men were shocked by the amount of alcohol Irish women could "handle" on a night out and I think alot of them were fairly disgusted. I can understand why. It was so nice to be asked out by men outside the pub/club environment when I was travelling. I'm sure it's happened to many of us that we hit it off with someone when were drunk and if we arrange to meet again, we've nothing to talk about or we couldn't compare to our drunken, confident, fiesty selves.

Drink gives us false confidence. It gives men the confidence to get up and chat up a girl and it gives girls the confidence to chat with them...or tell them to f-off, which she might not dream of doing soberly. I know I've been a lot more argumentative when I was drunk in the past and although I know it's a part of myself coming out, I'm never like that when I'm sober. That's why I drink less now. Simple as.

We need to develop this confidence without the aid of drink and rely on it so much to do the things that take a bit of guts normally. What kind of people does it make us if we rely on a mind-altering substance to give us confidence?

Dylan Moran had a joke about how the average Irish relationship, from the meeting, the dating, the marrying, the conceiving to the breaking-up or divorcing, is done under the unfluence...I have to find that...it's funny 'cos it's true (thanks Homer)

LegacyUser

Lads, as a 32 year old male i think many of you are going a tad overboard. I just don't see it myself. Some women can be vicious with their put downs but check the situation out first.

What works for me is, i just suss out the women i happen to be in the vicinity of or sitting beside and chat to them as if i was chatting to my sister. Really casual, crack a joke, try to put them at ease. If i get the impression that they don't want to be spoken to i don't try to make conversation. For me, its about reading body language, facial expression etc before i try to talk to someone.

This approach works well because 9 times out of 10 when i do strike up a conversation its because i've sussed the person out and can see that they are approachable and this greatly reduces the chances of being shot down.

A nightclub is the worst place to chat up a girl because its loud and its later on in the night when guys are generally getting drunk and not putting much thought into how they are going to approach a women and what they are going to say. Women tend to be a bit more defensive and guarded in these situations.

I also have found that if you go out with a group of friends both men and women theres less pressure to make a move on someone and you can get to know a girl and see what happens. If there is an attraction then make a move later on in the night.

On the whole i find that being really casual, friendly and chilled out when you are first talking to a women works a treat. They don't feel that you are you are trying to knock them up so will let their guard down and will chat away to you. PLAY IT COOL GUYS. IT WORKS.

adzer86

gimme5minutes wrote: »

It's ironic because if you go abroad and see the quality of the women on the continent who are in great shape and beautiful and yet they don't think they are better than anyone else and will happily chat away even if they are not interested. Where here in Ireland where we have drawn the short-straw looks-wise with the women, with the average irish women these days carrying a fair few extra pounds and caked in too much make-up, yet they think they are god's gift to men and are above 95% of men that approach them. The top 5% of women-looks wise in Ireland would just be the average on the continent.

So true gimme!
My friends and I are just back from a weeks holiday in Buffalo, NY and we all agreed that the average standard of women is so much higher than that of irish women. Now this isnt only to do with looks. Approaching and chatting to girls was alot easier i.e. they were alot more civil to each other.

Eve_Dublin

adzer86 wrote: »

So true gimme!
My friends and I are just back from a weeks holiday in Buffalo, NY and we all agreed that the average standard of women is so much higher than that of irish women. Now this isnt only to do with looks. Approaching and chatting to girls was alot easier i.e. they were alot more civil to each other.

Ah I give up......

scanlas

Women being harsh or bitchy on the opener gives you a great oppurtunity to build attraction and speed up the interaction. It's the indifferent reaction a woman gives that can be more difficult. When a woman is bitchy to you the most important thing is to remain emotionally unaffected. If you do that the woman will be attracted straight away. Often times the pick up can be more diffucult for the women who responds warmly in the beginning.

The second thing to rememeber is you should punish the behavour by either teasing playfully or shiftng your attention to her friend or by being distracted by something else. If you respond with an insult she won't have any attraction for you, it's obvous to her you take the interaction very serously and therefore don't have options with women. Also it's obvous you are insecure. A secure man doesn't get emotionally hurt from some woman being bitchy.

Bitchyness is a mechanism women use to separate the men from the boys. There's nothing wrong with it. Women need a man who is strong, decisive and secure. Bitchyness is a great way to find out if a man has those qualities by seeing how he reacts in that situation. Of cours most men won't admit this, that would be like you teacher giving you the solutions to your test before the test. The test would no longer work as a way of screening the students.

Porkpie

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Dylan Moran had a joke about how the average Irish relationship, from the meeting, the dating, the marrying, the conceiving to the breaking-up or divorcing, is done under the unfluence...I have to find that...it's funny 'cos it's true (thanks Homer)

Ha ha he makes the very funny point that you would never make other less-important decisions when drunk, something like "Did you ever go out and buy a toaster when drunk?" Very funny comedian.

Some very valid points made in previous posts. I've had my fair share of put downs and insults but at the same time, it hasn't turned my into a misogynist yet. After all, the women that are close to me (friends, relations) are not
b!tches. Think of how many women we know that are genuinely really nice people. I think that the pub/nightclub scene brings out the worst in a lot of women who are on constant defence mode mainly due to some of the drunken idiots who harass them. Yes, there are alot of nasty women out there, but I've seen plenty of sleazy gob****es give women a hard time too.

I think it's very hard to just approach a girl in a group and try to charm her and also win the respect of her friends. There's a sort of 'who are you' mentality. If you are a total stranger you stand little chance. So it's very helpful to at least know the person to see.

I reckon anyway that pubs and clubs are not the best places for meeting women - too much drink and loud music. You may find that women are more receptive in a non-threatening environment, like, oooh I don't know, mass? library? I need help here!

Eve_Dublin

Porkpie wrote: »

Ha ha he makes the very funny point that you would never make other less-important decisions when drunk, something like "Did you ever go out and buy a toaster when drunk?" Very funny comedian.

Some very valid points made in previous posts. I've had my fair share of put downs and insults but at the same time, it hasn't turned my into a misogynist yet. After all, the women that are close to me (friends, relations) are not
b!tches. Think of how many women we know that are genuinely really nice people. I think that the pub/nightclub scene brings out the worst in a lot of women who are on constant defence mode mainly due to some of the drunken idiots who harass them. Yes, there are alot of nasty women out there, but I've seen plenty of sleazy gob****es give women a hard time too.

I think it's very hard to just approach a girl in a group and try to charm her and also win the respect of her friends. There's a sort of 'who are you' mentality. If you are a total stranger you stand little chance. So it's very helpful to at least know the person to see.

I reckon anyway that pubs and clubs are not the best places for meeting women - too much drink and loud music. You may find that women are more receptive in a non-threatening environment, like, oooh I don't know, mass? library? I need help here!

Thanks Porkpie...genuinely. Nice to know I can go out tonight and NOT feel that half of the men in Dublin hate me purely because of where I was born. lol

LegacyUser

scanlas wrote: »

Women being harsh or bitchy on the opener gives you a great oppurtunity to build attraction and speed up the interaction. It's the indifferent reaction a woman gives that can be more difficult. When a woman is bitchy to you the most important thing is to remain emotionally unaffected. If you do that the woman will be attracted straight away. Often times the pick up can be more diffucult for the women who responds warmly in the beginning.

The second thing to rememeber is you should punish the behavour by either teasing playfully or shiftng your attention to her friend or by being distracted by something else. If you respond with an insult she won't have any attraction for you, it's obvous to her you take the interaction very serously and therefore don't have options with women. Also it's obvous you are insecure. A secure man doesn't get emotionally hurt from some woman being bitchy.

Bitchyness is a mechanism women use to separate the men from the boys. There's nothing wrong with it. Women need a man who is strong, decisive and secure. Bitchyness is a great way to find out if a man has those qualities by seeing how he reacts in that situation. Of cours most men won't admit this, that would be like you teacher giving you the solutions to your test before the test. The test would no longer work as a way of screening the students.

Been reading Neil Strauss much?

The Game is a good book but I would not take it literally, don't see a lot of the techniques working in small-town Ireland.

NickNolte

scanlas wrote: »

Bitchyness is a mechanism women use to separate the men from the boys. There's nothing wrong with it. Women need a man who is strong, decisive and secure. Bitchyness is a great way to find out if a man has those qualities by seeing how he reacts in that situation. Of cours most men won't admit this, that would be like you teacher giving you the solutions to your test before the test. The test would no longer work as a way of screening the students.

You're reading too many American self help books. If a woman is bitchy and harsh, I wouldn't buckle under the pressue and cry like a little boy. I would think - "Jesus, this women is an emotionally immature idiot" and I would walk away. Do you honestly think any real man would react positively to that kind of treatment? If women intentionally behave like that in Ireland, it just petpetuates the assertion that they're bitches. Being harsh and bitchy isn't a pleasant character trait nor is it some kind of social device for 'separating the men from the boys'. It's just vile.

It's amazing how this thread has turned around completely in the last page or so. "Okay, I admit it. Irish women are bitchy and unapproachable... but it's the alcohol's fault!". Maybe you're right, Eve_Dublin. But drink is no excuse for being shítty to someone.

LegacyUser

scanlas wrote: »

Bitchyness is a mechanism women use to separate the men from the boys. There's nothing wrong with it. Women need a man who is strong, decisive and secure. Bitchyness is a great way to find out if a man has those qualities by seeing how he reacts in that situation. Of cours most men won't admit this, that would be like you teacher giving you the solutions to your test before the test. The test would no longer work as a way of screening the students.

There's plenty wrong with it and you know it.

I could use a very simmilar argument to justify bullying. Scrub that. I could use a simmilar argument to justify the physical abuse of children. That wouldn't make me right.

The fact is most guys don't want to go out with a bitch. I'd have more self respect than to take such crap and i hope most guys would aswell.

@Wibbs.

The first hominoids to fall in love wouldn't have been bound by any social rules regarding monogamous relationships.

I'm gonna get shot down for this, but I don't think a physically healthy male and female (both fully heterosexual) can be truly best friends without it going any further (unless one of them is already in a relationship or one of them tries to fight it).

I have "friends" who are girls, just like I have loads of "friends", but they're not what i'd consider "true" friends.When i meet one of my best friends I instantly feel happy and get this smile on my face and we just joke about the whole time and it feels like i've got some sort of connection with them that I don't have with most other people.

The only time i ever felt this with a girl, biology kicked in really fast and those feelings became a hell of a lot stronger in a relatively short space of time.

There's a big difference between a "friend" you talk to, and a friend who you are constantly laughing with and feel better when around them. For a sexual relationship to develop with a friend, they'd have to be in the second category.

LegacyUser

Bitchyness is no big deal, chill out. People starving to death is a big deal.

Porkpie

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Thanks Porkpie...genuinely. Nice to know I can go out tonight and NOT feel that half of the men in Dublin hate me purely because of where I was born. lol

No problem Eve. Just remember you better be friendly to all those lotharios

Wibbs

Unregistered wrote: »

There's plenty wrong with it and you know it.

I agree, as others have said silly pickup self help stuff. Take some tiny grain of truth applicable to a narrow group and situation and extrapolate it out to the point where it becomes a rule.

@Wibbs.

The first hominoids to fall in love wouldn't have been bound by any social rules regarding monogamous relationships.

Again I disagree. Apes have social rules for a start and it looks pretty likely that early humans were less than monogamous anyway. Even "love" as a concept would come quite late to the game in our evolutionary history. Pair bonding yes, but love and romantic love is quite a new idea in our written history. The idea of marrying for love is still not to the fore in many many cultures even today(arranged sociopolitical marriages etc). As I said there hasn't been some halcyon age where male/female interaction has not been bounded by often very strict rules. Our time is about as free willed and halcyon as it gets.

I'm gonna get shot down for this, but I don't think a physically healthy male and female (both fully heterosexual) can be truly best friends without it going any further (unless one of them is already in a relationship or one of them tries to fight it).

I really dont agree. I have three women friends, true friends for more than a decade and there has never been any undercurrent sexually with them. I can see they are objectively attractive(one an ex model) but are literally like sisters to me. It would be a eeeeuh moment, thinking about anything more, for both of us. If we were stuck on a desert island and had to repopulate the place someone would have to airlift in a hundredweight of viagra, blindfolds and a crate of Scotch.

I have "friends" who are girls, just like I have loads of "friends", but they're not what i'd consider "true" friends.When i meet one of my best friends I instantly feel happy and get this smile on my face and we just joke about the whole time and it feels like i've got some sort of connection with them that I don't have with most other people.

The only time i ever felt this with a girl, biology kicked in really fast and those feelings became a hell of a lot stronger in a relatively short space of time.

There's a big difference between a "friend" you talk to, and a friend who you are constantly laughing with and feel better when around them. For a sexual relationship to develop with a friend, they'd have to be in the second category.

Well that would be an ideal situation granted, but that's how you operate. Others may be the same, but again others like me don't operate like that. I don't extrapolate that my way is the right or only way and I can accept that some can't have true friends that are attractive women. We're all different. I would also say that in my experience pure friendships turning into something romantic/sexual are rarer than boy meets girl both think wow and then become mates.

Affable

I'd rather approach a girl on her own, as sometimes I go out on my own. Also, women can be very judgemental and expect entertainment and you not to be dull. This is hard when there isn't much to say.

Also, just a personal thing but I prfer Asian/black women. They tend to be a bit more easy going.

gabbygirlgavin

im friendly, out going, i think im pretty and id feckin talk to a wall... but every time i go out i get ignored by all guys cuz they atomatically think im flirting or iinterested when im not and then at the end of the night i get invited back to theres!!
I dont get it, im sick of it! i want a normal proper conversation with a guy.
Is that too much to ask??

Affable

gabbygirlgavin wrote: »

im friendly, out going, i think im pretty and id feckin talk to a wall... but every time i go out i get ignored by all guys cuz they atomatically think im flirting or iinterested when im not and then at the end of the night i get invited back to theres!!
I dont get it, im sick of it! i want a normal proper conversation with a guy.
Is that too much to ask??

Men want sex and don't really have much to say

gabbygirlgavin

ah feck it! I get it but like its a joke. The only lads I can get chattin to are not single aka are already getting sex so no hunting needed. I think i will start a new thread... why cant single ppl just talk to each other when out??!

NickNolte

Affable wrote: »

Men want sex and don't really have much to say

Some men have a lot to say, some men have very little to say. Most want sex... that's nothing to be ashamed of in the right context.

Affable

NickNolte wrote: »

Some men have a lot to say, some men have very little to say. Most want sex... that's nothing to be ashamed of in the right context.

I know. But I'm a guy. I have stuff going on emotionally within me. But I can't really converse with women.

NickNolte

gabbygirlgavin wrote: »

why cant single ppl just talk to each other when out??!

Let me save you the hassle:

Men are expected to do make the first move while, as we've established, a sizeable proportion of the female population (even if they are in a minority) reserve the right to treat men like crap when they do make the first move. When women start taking the initiative and risking rejection the same way men traditionally have (in this equal society that we live in these days) then the status quo will be where it should be.

poisonated

Unregistered wrote: »

Bitchyness is no big deal, chill out. People starving to death is a big deal.

You could say that about anything...I hate when people say that...I agree with you in that you should look on the bright side but... its natural to complain in fact its probably healthy but...
I dont approach women because I really dont know what to say when I do...I go up and introduce myself shake their hands but I often get a very icey response to that.Is that not what you should do??

gabbygirlgavin

NickNolte wrote: »

Men are expected to do make the first move while, as we've established, a sizeable proportion of the female population (even if they are in a minority) reserve the right to treat men like crap when they do make the first move.

I make the first move, il strike up a convo with most guys. i dont treat them like crap and i give most my due attention. last yr when a guy ofered to buy me a drink i said, no i wanna buy u a drink, he was grand about it but half n hour later it was grabbin my ass and moterboating my boobs before saying tonight hel rock my world... I most certainlt slept alone that night!
Im not looking for a relationship! im not lookin to have my night rocked either! where are all the gentlemen gone!!!

NickNolte

gabbygirlgavin wrote: »

I make the first move, il strike up a convo with most guys. i dont treat them like crap and i give most my due attention. last yr when a guy ofered to buy me a drink i said, no i wanna buy u a drink,

You're in an almost exclusive minority in the female population, believe me.

gabbygirlgavin wrote: »

he was grand about it but half n hour later it was grabbin my ass and moterboating my boobs before saying tonight hel rock my world

Sounds like you hooked yourself a real keeper there.

gabbygirlgavin wrote: »

where are all the gentlemen gone!!!

The most gentlemanly guys I know are also the least successful with women. Nice guys come last (and no psychobabble about nice guys = doormats, etc... none of these guys are... they're just genuine, decent, friendly blokes). You know yourself... you bought a drink for some guy who ended up motorboating your tits after a few drinks. Most guys would never dream of doing that and you buy a drink for the guy who does The 'gentlemen' in the place that night probably wouldn't have caught your eye. That's life really.

gabbygirlgavin

hmmmm... i accept ur advice with an open mind and i shall try to... eh... not to be too forward or too shy?? i think il stay at home!!

Eve_Dublin

NickNolte wrote: »

It's amazing how this thread has turned around completely in the last page or so. "Okay, I admit it. Irish women are bitchy and unapproachable... but it's the alcohol's fault!". Maybe you're right, Eve_Dublin. But drink is no excuse for being shítty to someone.

No, I didn't change my argument if you'll actually take a moment and read the posts...I never said that. I said Irish women can be "tough cookies"...I didn't agree with the rest. Why would I agree with such stupid generalisations about myself??? Come on! Not a chance. Man, you're a bould fella for not reading the posts, taking bits out of context and quoting me completely wrong. Pure lazy.

I don't agree with that bitchiness theory, by the way. This wasn't written by a woman but by a man, no less! Madness of the highest order.

NickNolte

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I said Irish women can be "tough cookies"

Same thing.

Wibbs

NickNolte wrote: »

YThe most gentlemanly guys I know are also the least successful with women. Nice guys come last (and no psychobabble about nice guys = doormats, etc... none of these guys are... they're just genuine, decent, friendly blokes). You know yourself... you bought a drink for some guy who ended up motorboating your tits after a few drinks. Most guys would never dream of doing that and you buy a drink for the guy who does The 'gentlemen' in the place that night probably wouldn't have caught your eye. That's life really.

Yep but often the problem with the gentleman guys is they're not proactive. How is the woman going to see they're good guys if they don't engage with them in the first place? Plus in general women prefer to be pursued and we have to live with that as men. Hence the gobshítes get the action, they ask for it. I agree BTW the nice guy/doormat type is another fish entirely. They usually do ask, but in a completely arseways fashion.

NickNolte

Wibbs wrote: »

Yep but often the problem with the gentleman guys is they're not proactive. How is the woman going to see they're good guys if they don't engage with them in the first place? Plus in general women prefer to be pursued and we have to live with that as men.

That's my point really. If women took a bit more initiative they'd probably meet nicer blokes when they're out at night. As it stands, the kind of guy that will chat a girl up is the kind of guy who has no problem getting knocked back agressively. He'll just move on to the next potential 'conquest'. This is a sweeping generalisation of course but you can take a reasonable grain of truth from it. I do know a few genuine, decent blokes who chat women up a lot but they're in a small minority.

As with the OP's original question - there's no point in women sitting there, doing nothing, waiting to be 'pursued' and then wondering why they're attracting the completely wrong type of (drunken, sleazy) men. If a girl sees a guy she likes the look and demeanour of... she should go and talk to him. If men and women were equal in this respect and the risk taking and social expectations were a 50/50 thing, then we wouldn't even be discussing this.

Eve_Dublin

NickNolte wrote: »

Same thing.

No it ain't. Someone having a strong personality and being a bit gruff on ocassion is not the same as being a stupid cow. I'm a tough cookie but I'm certainly not a b***h. Nick, you argue that I turned my arguement around just to suit you...you did that before and told me my arguement with all over the place, when it clearly wasn't. It's crystal clear what my point is. Nobody else in here had a problem understanding it. You argue like an 8 year old.

NickNolte

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

No it ain't. Someone having a strong personality and being a bit gruff on ocassion is not the same as being a stupid cow. I'm a tough cookie but I'm certainly not a b***h. Nick, you argue that I turned my arguement around just to suit you...you did that before and told me my arguement with all over the place, when it clearly wasn't. It's crystal clear what my point is. Nobody else in here had a problem understanding it. You argue like an 8 year old.

And you don't even argue. You just contradict yourself.

Wibbs

OK folks lets keep it on topic and civil. Thanks.

Wagon

Strong, confident women are obvious. they're usually the nicest ones as they are confident in themselves but don't have the superiority complex, arrogance and bitchy demenour. They'e just nice peope. The same can be said for good men too. They approach with no expectations of sex, just want a laugh and a chat and don't have booze drooling down their chin.

A "tough cookie" to me is a bit of a bitch. I dunno why, but im never friends with people who are initially hostile. Ever. I've met some great characters over the years and the thing that they all had in common was that they were all just sound from the word go. Some i still know and have got some great mates that way. If i am introduced to someone or approach a randomer, id always be up for a chat. If they're hostile, id just say "bitch" to myself and walk away and not waste my time.

NickNolte

Wibbs wrote: »

OK folks lets keep it on topic and civil. Thanks.

Fair enough, let's do that.

To summarise: if women want to live in an increasingly equal society (which, I think can we all agree, is a good thing) then they're going to have to sacrifice all of their traditional roles, not just the ones that suit them.

Ladies, you want to earn the same salaries as men in the workplace and break through the glass ceiling? You're absolutely dead right. You should expect that. You want your man to take on 50% of the child rearing and housework? There's absolutely no argument there whatsoever. You should expect that too.

However, you want to sit there on a night out like a wallflower and expect the man to do all the work and pursue you? Sorry, those days are over from what I can see.

Gender equality is a great leveller.

Nervous Wreck

I approached and asked out a woman in a very polite way last night! And she replied, "I'm actually really busy with my exams..." and I said "No problem at all so!" and she said "Well maybe if I get some free time before I leave (in 2 weeks for a year)..." and I said "Ah sure don't worry about it! Sure I'll cya tomorrow (in work... yikes!)!"

It was all very civil and nice. Loadsa fun!

Eve_Dublin

NickNolte wrote: »

Fair enough, let's do that.

To summarise: if women want to live in an increasingly equal society (which, I think can we all agree, is a good thing) then they're going to have to sacrifice all of their traditional roles, not just the ones that suit them.

Ladies, you want to earn the same salaries as men in the workplace and break through the glass ceiling? You're absolutely dead right. You should expect that. You want your man to take on 50% of the child rearing and housework? There's absolutely no argument there whatsoever. You should expect that too.

However, you want to sit there on a night out like a wallflower and expect the man to do all the work and pursue you? Sorry, those days are over from what I can see.

Gender equality is a great leveller.

I would agree with this but this should really go without saying. Girls, like the OP's friends, who are waiting to be chatted up baffle me and conjures up an image of some Victorian debutante ball or something. As Wibbs mentioned, it's true that girls like to be chased but really, if the guy you're interested in doesn't approach you, are you just going to let him leave? What are you waiting for ladies?? I would agree that we can't demand equal rights but come over all 19th century when we're in pubs/clubs and WAIT to be approached.

From what I've read on this forum, guys like to be chatted up, however I think girls feel they come across as desperate if they make the first move. I can't explain the psychology behind that, can anyone else?

I was out last night in a well known Dublin pub and there was such a great atmosphere in the place; every age group and every background. Everyone was chatting to everyone and it was all easy and relaxed.

I got chatting to some guy outside the pub having a cigarette (smirting?) and we were talking about the elections (specifically the hilarious election posters all around Dublin), the hideous buildings surrounding the pub, what it's like to be in your 30's for a good 20 minutes and later on in the night he asked me for my number. I declined politely because I'm not available at the moment but I was flattered and respected the guys balls (in the metaphorical sense)and because of that, I might have said yes if I was available. Gutsy fellas are attractive.

It was nice to not be targeted and to be chatted up in the usual manner. The guy probably wasn't interested 'till we had a chat. We got along and he took a risk (and he wasn't p*ssed) and I really respect that. To be honest, I hate being chatted up, for the conversation to immediately turn to sexual innuendo...it makes me cringe and if I'm not interested, I panic because I don't want to come across like I'm presuming the guy IS interested (even if he clearly is) and I'm not sure how to hint at the guy that I'm not interested or embarass him or knock his confidence a bit etc. Contrary to what some men think in here, some women consider these things.

This has always been the way I've met guys in the past...to start with just a normal conversation either initiated by me or him (i'm one of those types that would happily talk to anyone in a pub, girls and guys). If you're interested, gauge how you get along from that instead of moving in with the big-guns immediately. People get freaked out by that approach and their rejection might sometimes come across as rude.

The cheesy lines grate on me at this stage and I've heard them all...I just want to have a normal conversation with someone first and if the other person is incapable of that, then I won't be interested. I've initiated plenty of conversations with fellas in the past and it's how I met a few (yes, i've quite a few, believe it or not!! haha) of my exes. My tactic is to get in the same area as the man I like, find some reason to talk to them, crack a joke or whatever...if they smoke, even better...ask them for a light. There's nothing better than just getting along with that person first, just having a conversation, having a laugh, not making it blatently apparent that you're chatting up the person (play it cool a little) and either clicking or not with that person and THEN seeing how things go from there.

This whole chatting-up malarky is doing things the wrong way round, in my opinion.

BumbleB

Whats the big deal about going up to a guy and saying something ?. Italian ,Polish, Spainish and south american women ,do it to me all the time . All they say is "Hi ,youre very tall" and that it very simple eh ?.

I have only been approached by Irish girls , 7 or 8 times in my life.One time was at the dogs for a christmas party. I made eye contact with this very striking blonde girl .I looked down at the menu next thing she invited me over to her group

Its funny, Irish girls will gyrate right in front of you ,rub off you ,stroke themselves ,push their boobs together while youre watching but wont say anything , weird !.

scanlas

For all the men wishing hot women were friendlier:

If you were an ultra hot woman you wouldn't appear to be really friendly and approachable in bars and clubs, you would have lads approaching every minute trying to impress you with the same ol roll your eyes spiel. In the real world it's not practical. These so called bitchy women get a hard time from lads projecting their insecurities on them all the time. They know that if they play friendly for a while and then eventually try to let the guy down gently there's a good chance she'll have to deal with him reacting angrily. So why not filter out those guys from the start, she's probably doing him a favour by scaring him off from the start.

I

NickNolte

scanlas wrote: »

For all the men wishing hot women were friendlier:

Women in general. Nobody necessarily said anything about 'hot' women.

scanlas wrote: »

If you were an ultra hot woman you wouldn't appear to be really friendly and approachable in bars and clubs, you would have lads approaching every minute trying to impress you with the same ol roll your eyes spiel. In the real world it's not practical. These so called bitchy women get a hard time from lads projecting their insecurities on them all the time. They know that if they play friendly for a while and then eventually try to let the guy down gently there's a good chance she'll have to deal with him reacting angrily. So why not filter out those guys from the start, she's probably doing him a favour by scaring him off from the start.

That's what's called being a stuck up bitch.

Wibbs

This has gone beyond the PI issue, so I'm moving it here as its more a debate at this stage IMHO. Thanks.