I completely disagree with Bill Cullen!!

jank

How I disagree with this man. Him and all his snake oil ilk deserve what they have done to themselves.

You can blame the greens for some things but to blame them for what is after happening to the car industry the last 12 months without even looking in the mirror is something pravda would be proud off.

http://audio.todayfm.com/audio/20090512180010.mp3
starts at 5:50

zuroph

agreed with a lot of what he had to say, the green guy tried twisting facts several times in a misleading fashion. and what Biull is arguing about affects private car owners too, not just dealers.

jank

What exactly do you agree with?

That the change to VRT has cost the government 16 billion in lost tax,
Or that the growth in car usage in the last 10 years was "needed"!.....

Regarding private owners well it isnt really news that car prices here, dealer or private are way way over priced.
Prices had to come down anyway VRT changes or not.
Bill is just trying to deflect blame from his own industry to the green party who are vunerable at the moment in the polls.

zuroph

jank wrote: »

Or that the growth in car usage in the last 10 years was "needed"!.....

growth is car usage was obviously needed, supply and demand. Booming economy required more people to travel, and the gov aint exactly rolling out the public transport or commercial train services.

I agreed with the fact that the change in VRT resulted in thousands of people losing a fortune off the value of their cars. the move cost almost everyone in this country a considerable amount of cash.

jimmycrackcorm

zuroph wrote: »

I agreed with the fact that the change in VRT resulted in thousands of people losing a fortune off the value of their cars. the move cost almost everyone in this country a considerable amount of cash.

And the sterling exchange rate had absolutely nothing to do with pricing?

CarCity

The reality is that all prices and wages need to come down.. this in effect should cancel each other out in affecting the standard of living. In terms of the car industry the VRT here is not helping. However to hear himself and his partner at the weekend about hekicopters on the late late show was galling.

jank

zuroph wrote: »

growth is car usage was obviously needed, supply and demand. Booming economy required more people to travel, and the gov aint exactly rolling out the public transport or commercial train services.

A booming economy results in more cars on the road. I agree with that but but does everyone need a new card every second year. How many thousands of 2nd hand cars are lying idle around the country?

Re public transport well thats a chicken and egg game.

zuroph wrote: »

I agreed with the fact that the change in VRT resulted in thousands of people losing a fortune off the value of their cars. .

It saved people allot of money too. In fact judging by the reaction here when one thought they could save quite a bit of money on their 320d BMW alot of people were happy.

With 2nd hand cars? Well shock horror regarding a 2nd hand car losing money. Its the biggest cost of owning a car!

zuroph wrote: »

the move cost almost everyone in this country a considerable amount of cash
.

Well first off thats bull$hit unless everyone who owns a car wants to sell it tomorrow. What do you consider as a considerable amount of cash? My folks bought their car in 2006 and they don't plan to trade it in or sell it for god knows how many years. My brother has a 2000 car and will drive it until the axel will fall off it. How much "cash" did the vrt change cost them?

Cash! :rolleyes:

Why must we trade in our new cars every year so we can impress the mother in law?

Owning a car that you think is worth x is not a cash value. A cash value is when you actually sell the car. Car prices were way over valued anyway and the proof of the pudding are the amount of people going to the UK to buy theirs.

At the end of the day something is only worth whatever one is willing to pay. We saw it with house prices and we are seeing it with car prices.

The chickens are just coming home to roost but Bill is trying to blame the greens rather than look at his business "ripoff" model and try and fix it there.

Padraig Mor

Haven't listened to the link but have heard Cullen spouting the same bull before, as well as plenty of others in the motor industry. This notion that the VRT changes caused the industry to collapse is complete and utter crap. VRT changes had only a minimal effect, but it happened to be simultaneous with economic collapse. I suppose the VRT changes are to blame for the huge drops in car sales in other countries too? As far as I can see the causes are as follows:

1. And by far the biggest contributor - the collapse in the economy. Dealers may not have noticed but the economy has been in open freefall since winter 06 / spring 07. This is by far the main reason people are not buying cars - they are too nervous to spend big money (now, you can blame the govt for the economic collapse if you want, but that's a different story).

2. The dealers themselves. How many of them ordered in shedloads of stock in early 2008 without even considering the economic problems or upcoming VRT changes? BMW seem to have been the only marque to pull their head out of their holes and respond to the changes. Having visited plenty of dealers looking to buy new in that time, I can tell you that a lot of dealers were only interested in flogging the Paddy spec rubbish they already had in stock, with no interest in a factory order. FFS - are Ford Ireland STILL not selling the 1.6 TCDi Focus here because they have fields full of 1.4 petrols to sell? That's hardly the govt's fault.

3. Depreciation of sterling. Not much we can do about that.

4. Very much last place - the VRT changes. Could undoubtedly have been handled better but their impact was minimal. Everyone focusses on the 'big ticket' BMW price drops, but the simple fact is that the price of the vast majority of cars for sale here only changed minimally due to VRT.

Repolho

They should take that muppet off the radio. He berated Dan Boyle for not answering his questions, yet he never let him speak, just kept shouting over him.

He got badly caught out at one stage when he gave the example of a new car dropping €10k in price from €40k to €30k. He then went on to say that the 2 year old version had droped from €22k to €12k. He had to back track a bit then when Dan Boyle told him there was no effect on the consumer trading in there and that the gov were the only ones to loose out!

roosterman71

Padraig Mor wrote: »

4. Very much last place - the VRT changes. Could undoubtedly have been handled better but their impact was minimal. Everyone focusses on the 'big ticket' BMW price drops, but the simple fact is that the price of the vast majority of cars for sale here only changed minimally due to VRT.

I bought a new car (1.4 petrol) in 07 and was going to buy a bigger car this year due to a change of circumstances and needed a bigger car. I had the money saved for the change, but the VRT change decimated the value of petrol cars - mine down by €2000 approx with the change*

* thats if I still had it - sold it privately in January and haven't bought yet due to future job uncertainty

Drummerboy08

Hey - he sells Renaults. What would he know about selling cars?

Saab Ed

Bill Cullen is rightly angered because he's watching his business collapse. The Green party didnt cause the problems in the motor industry today but they did hammer in the final nails through a complete lack of understanding of the motor indusrty itself and the greater economy.

1) When the VRT system changed in 2008 alot of cars went down in price. OK thats brill but it also ment the used versions of the same car went down by the same value and in some cases even more because who wants to tax a 2007 car at the old rate of tax when the 2008 tax on the same make and model can be 100's of percent cheaper. The de-value in the used car not only hurt the owner in relative worth but also put alot of people into negative equity. Not fair , these people paid the taxes the goverment asked them to ( even though its an un-just tax in the first place...I know , different argument )

2) If they were going to change the VRT and tax system then why didnt they just do it going forward. If somebody bought a new VW Passat here in 2004 they paid a very high level of VRT and still pay a very high level of motor tax ,that same person is now double punished because someone can go to the UK and bring back a Passat at a much relative lower level of VRT and a vast difference in the motor tax due. Now which car do you think someone wants to buy again in a couple of years? Makes the one on the old system almost sale proof.

3) Dealers felt the real brunt of this because they were left with un -sellable stock and customers that they coudnt deal with due to all the above reasons. The motor industry is on the Brink and instead of boosting the industry the green party through complete lack of any knowledge of how the industry works actually tried to destroy the indusrty.

4) Biggest polluter in Ireland? ESB with its coal burning power plants which will be powering all of the green party company electric cars very soon.

Last but not least : Jank its fine to give an opinion but mine is that you're out of your dept on this one.

partyguinness

I heard most of that interview yesterday.

The more it went on the more I went against Bill Cullen.

He seemed to be arguing that just because Ireland has a low car per captia compared to the Uk that we should somehow be seeking increase the amount of cars in Ireland or that there is no need to curb car usage in Ireland. This is nonsense

What is it? A race to have more cars on our roads or play catch up with other countries that are choking with vehicles? No thanks.

The less cars the better and of course the Greens are trying to promote public transport etc which naturally is at complete odds with the car industry.

I would like to see a comparative increase with public transport in line with the collapse with the motor industry if that is happening.

Saab Ed

partyguinness wrote: »

I heard most of that interview yesterday.

The more it went on the more I went against Bill Cullen.

He seemed to be arguing that just because Ireland has a low car per captia compared to the Uk that we should somehow be seeking increase the amount of cars in Ireland or that there is no need to curb car usage in Ireland. This is nonsense

What is it? A race to have more cars on our roads or play catch up with other countries that are choking with vehicles? No thanks.

The less cars the better and of course the Greens are trying to promote public transport etc which is at complete odds with the car industry.

I would like to see a comparative increase with public transport in line with the collapse with the motor industry if that is happening.

Do you meen promoting public transport by grounding hundreads of buses and laying off hundreads more workers or promoting public transport by having the least subsidised public transport network in Western Europe.

Padraig Mor

Saab Ed wrote: »

3) Dealers felt the real brunt of this because they were left with un -sellable stock and customers that they coudnt deal with due to all the above reasons. .

Id dealers have a load of unsellable stock it's their own bloody fault for ordering it in the first place. VRT changes did not **** the motor industry - the economy did. In typical fashion however, we have the dealers of Ireland looking to offload blame elsewhere instead of trying to adapt to shifting market conditions.

partyguinness

Saab Ed wrote: »

Do you meen promoting public transport by grounding hundreads of buses and laying off hundreads more workers or promoting public transport by having the least subsidised public transport network in Western Europe.

The public transport issue is whole different days argument from the thread here.

Saab Ed

partyguinness wrote: »

The public transport issue is whole different days argument from the thread here.

Well not really. If the reason for change in the motor indurty was to change how people thought about how they get around and then on the other hand you restrict that choice, how can that be different?

Im not suggesting things didnt have to change but the crude manner in which it was done was a disgrace.

partyguinness

Yes the cost and inefficency of the public transport system is a joke. It is ok in Dublin but outside of the Pale its 3rd world in a lot of places. Most of the time there is simply no option but to drive even when living in large commuter towns.

Saab Ed

:rolleyes: And they are / have put the prices up....Joke

Darsad

Why was Cullen even arguing with Dan Boyle he is an un elected / un electable member of the green party with no mandate. He only got his senators seat and the 100 K plus a year for doing a deal to keep Bertie and the FFers in power.

The fact is the Greens and FF have a lot to do with the current problems in the motor industry.CO2 taxation was coming and the industry was working with the relevant depts to introduce a system that would have minimal impact on the gov revenue , however that all went out the window when the greens insisted on complete Co2 taxation for the motor industry this was agreed by Bertie and Cowen over that weekend and i have heard from revenue officials that the system was never even costed and was agreed between four people Boyle , Gormless , Cowen and Bertie.

The Greens are the closest thing to a recognised Cult in this country and wont be happy until we are all back living in the dark ages.

TheBazman

As much as I disagree with most of the Greens policies, Cullen just seemed to be having a rant due to a deterioration in his personal circumstances (that's a guess but it seems likely with the motor and the hospitality industry struggling). The way Anton left the interview go on with Cullen asking questions but not letting Dan Boyle answer was dispicable. Cullen was just throwing out sensational numbers with little other than top of the head calculations to back them up.

partyguinness

Bill Cullen seems to overlook the fact that people are much more insecure about their jobs etc and that buying a new car is not a priority.

Also the banks have virtually stopped giving out Car Loans. A car is a luxery not an entitlement which is what he would lead you to believe.

Owen

partyguinness wrote: »

Also the banks have virtually stopped giving out Car Loans.

Well, they did anyway. The cash seems to be flowing a little more from banks in recent times again.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Saab Ed wrote: »

4) Biggest polluter in Ireland? ESB with its coal burning power plants which will be powering all of the green party company electric cars very soon.

Well actually it's livestock I believe.

partyguinness

I am genuinely astonished that the ESB still have peat fuelled power stations...:mad:

Getting electricity (nuclear powered) from the UK is inevitable if it is isnt happening already.

smash

2 points Bill was making was:

1.) The VRT and tax changes have destroyed the 2nd hand market because cars are not worth what they use to be and dealers don't want them as trade ins.

2.) The VRT and tax changes have lost massive amounts of revenue for the government.

Both points are true!

He also mentioned that they were not necessary because manufacturers were reducing their emissions anyway, so these tax's didn't need to be altered to force people to buy low Co2 cars - they were already either here, or on their way. His most important point was that the motor industry isn't the only polluter in the country, and only plays a small part, but it's the only one getting hit with these tax's.

enda1

partyguinness wrote: »

I am genuinely astonished that the ESB still have peat fuelled power stations...:mad:

Getting electricity (nuclear powered) from the UK is inevitable if it is isnt happening already.

It is happening already. We've a mightly big "interconnector" under the Irish sea and there are a further 2 I believe being built/laid/planned now.

ardmacha

Imports from the UK destroyed the second hand market. Now there is no doubt that the ability to apply the new rates of VRT to second hand vehicles from the UK has distorted the market somewhat. However the main reason for the imports from the UK is the rapid decline in Sterling, itself a feature of the changes in the economy. A car imported new into the UK when Sterling was €1.50 was always going to be good value second hand 2 or 3 years later when Sterling was €1.10.

Saab Ed

ardmacha wrote: »

Imports from the UK destroyed the second hand market. Now there is no doubt that the ability to apply the new rates of VRT to second hand vehicles from the UK has distorted the market somewhat. However the main reason for the imports from the UK is the rapid decline in Sterling, itself a feature of the changes in the economy. A car imported new into the UK when Sterling was €1.50 was always going to be good value second hand 2 or 3 years later when Sterling was €1.10.

So its a double wammy then. When sterling was 1.50 Irish cars were being punished with higher VRT but now sterling is 1.10 and the VRT is less. Would imports be really such good value if they all had to pay VRT at the old rate?

partyguinness

I bought my car in the UK xmas 12 mnts ago. I saved over 10k even after VRT was paid. 6 of my friends have followed suit and we all have nice shiny BMWs:o

As unpatriotic as this is...I will prob never buy another car in Ireland again...why should I? I get better choice more extras and for half the price....

ps It will be a very very long time before I can buy another car.

run_Forrest_run

I was so frustrated listening to Bill Cullen, he confirmed my impression of car dealers in Ireland, selfish and arrogant to the death.
The fact that he would not let Boyle speak was disgraceful and Anton Savage should have controlled that more but he didn't really, maybe because Bill was in the studio and Dan Boyle was on the phone..still tho.