Criminal Justice Bill (Misc) 2009

Gatling

its all down to perception its not the device its the idea of what it looks like ,
bang or no bang ,
and if there's a preceived threat you could possibly end up with a court date:(:(

Dr_Pepper

Blay wrote: »

But I think the real issue the Gardai and the DOJ have is that they're being used by kids running around the streets.

Im sorry to have to stop and ask this but where, pray tell, did you get this nugget of information? Can you cite the source?

Don't mean to pick at ya but what you think and what the IAA have been told face to face seem to be very different.

sliabh

Blay wrote: »

don't think a Garda would have an issue with it on public property once the bbs aren't a danger to passers by.

The problem is that the briefing document for the legislation states that:

The new section 9B provides for the control of the use of realistic
imitation firearms such as airsoft devices by restricting their use to
places authorised by the local Superintendent- e.g. airsoft venues,
theatres etc.

This seems to be saying that you will only be able to fire an airsoft device at an approved venue, which means back garden plinking will become illegal.

I have asked to IAA to get clarification on this on the thread on their site.

Rew

kdouglas wrote: »

It already is;


From the Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act, 1994;

Beat me too it!

Witcher

Dr_Pepper wrote: »

Im sorry to have to stop and ask this but where, pray tell, did you get this nugget of information? Can you cite the source?

Don't mean to pick at ya but what you think and what the IAA have been told face to face seem to be very different.

Well realistically it's possibly something that is on the mind of Gardai, do they want people running around on the road with airsoft...I think not.

Only recently in Bray a man was arrested for pointing an"imitation" gun at passers-by in cars, Garda helicopter was called out and he was arrested by armed Gardai. And there's been other incidents of its kind. Don't think the DOJ want that every second day. It's common sense to assume it's part of their reasoning on the subject.

Craigsy

I think their main intention in trying to control the sport is to stop stuff like yobbo's and ne-er do wells buying a gbb then using it for crime.

As far as plinking goes, even if theres no noise your neighbours might be wary of "the guy next door who sits out the backgarden cleaning his guns". Unless you live somewhere where scenes from deliverance are common

kdouglas

sliabh wrote: »

The problem is that the briefing document for the legislation states that:


This seems to be saying that you will only be able to fire an airsoft device at an approved venue, which means back garden plinking will become illegal.

I have asked to IAA to get clarification on this on the thread on their site.

The actual wording of the Bill takes precedence over the briefing document.

A bit of common sense wouldn't go amiss either, just like now, unless you are causing a disturbance by plinking in your back garden, then you are doing nothing wrong. If your backgarden happens to be overlooked by the M50, then maybe you might not want to plink there.

Gatling

or in my case a school:o:o

sliabh

kdouglas wrote: »

The actual wording of the Bill takes precedence over the briefing document.

Definitely. But to me (and I am not a legalsmith) the wording of the bill is a little ambiguous:

9B.—(1) The Superintendent of any district
may authorise in writing the possession, use or car30
riage of realistic imitation firearms in that district
at a specified location during such period, not
exceeding one

This doesn't seem to require that the venue is commercial, or a club or anything.

kdouglas wrote: »

A bit of common sense wouldn't go amiss either,

Ordinarily I would agree. The problem is that this could leave us with a situation where shooting on private property is technically illegal. Now 95% of the time it won't be a problem, but it does mean that it could just be at a rank and file Guard's discretion to act if he/she wants.

It think it would be better if we had clarity from the DoJ on this one.

CrazyRabbit

Make your feelings known to your local TD:

By Constituency:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/members-hist/default.asp?housetype=0&HouseNum=30&disp=const

By TD Name:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/members-hist/default.asp?housetype=0&HouseNum=30&disp=mem

Perhaps someone here with excellent writing skills can put together a draft letter outlining the general concerns of Airsofters?

Dr_Pepper

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Make your feelings known to your local TD:

By Constituency:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/members-hist/default.asp?housetype=0&HouseNum=30&disp=const

By TD Name:
http://www.oireachtas.ie/members-hist/default.asp?housetype=0&HouseNum=30&disp=mem

Perhaps someone here with excellent writing skills can put together a draft letter outlining the general concerns of Airsofters?

While you are there submit them to the IAA so that they can use this as ammo when they meet with the right people.

Poccington

Blay wrote: »

But I think the real issue the Gardai and the DOJ have is that they're being used by kids running around the streets

Of the few things someone could make an argument against Airsoft devices or the owning of them, that would be a fairly bad one.

Witcher

Poccington wrote: »

Of the few things someone could make an argument against Airsoft devices or the owning of them, that would be a fairly bad one.

Well if you were a passer by and a scummer shot you in the eye would you be appreciative of it?

Poccington

Blay wrote: »

Well if you were a passer by and a scummer shot you in the eye would you be appreciative of it?

That could happen with someone using a spud gun, someone throwing stones etc.

The only real issue IMO that involves Airsoft devices is that not many people can tell the difference between that and the actual weapon itself.

Witcher

Poccington wrote: »

That could happen with someone using a spud gun, someone throwing stones etc.

The only real issue IMO that involves Airsoft devices is that not many people can tell the difference between that and the actual weapon itself.

That's the issue I'm trying to highlight, people out on the street with them pointing them at people, cars and the Gardai are called and that puts a negative mark in the Garda's mind about airsoft and could develop a "fceking airsoft guns, ban the things" mentality. Indeed this could stand for anything golf clubs, hurls etc. But airsoft is the issue here.

Gardai have probably had them pointed at them in they're time too, considering a petrol bomb was thrown at Gardai down the road from me it's not that hard to imagine for me anyway.

Poccington

Blay wrote: »

That's the issue I'm trying to highlight, people out on the street with them pointing them at people, cars and the Gardai are called and that puts a negative mark in the Garda's mind about airsoft and could develop a "fceking airsoft guns, ban the things" mentality.

Gardai have probably had them pointed at them in they're time too, considering a petrol bomb was thrown at Gardai down the road from me it's not that hard to imagine for me anyway.

Oh right, I thought you literally just meant only kids running down the road with them :pac:

I agree though, it's something that will have to be dealt with.

extremetaz

realismpol wrote: »

I personally think that if its passed it will spell the end of airsoft for the vast majority turning it into a specialised sport for those with the funds.

Can you explain where you get this somewhat odd notion from please?

realismpol wrote: »

I will bet there are more people who do this then are actual members of the iaa

Well no sh*t - that's how the IAA is designed to work - for all airsofters, members or otherwise.

realismpol wrote: »

If we go down the road of authrorisation for devices

There's no mention of authorisation for devices anywhere...

realismpol wrote: »

Someone should keep outlining to them the fact that airsoft no matter how threatening looking it may be is incapable of killing or even seriously injuring anyone. That is a very important point.

Which is exactly why they have their own SPECIFIC legislation, aside from the actual firearms legislation. However, as you've said youself, they can look threatening and there is potential for misuse. I for one do not want my wife or child coming home in a state because some gombeen is pratting around acting the hardman with an airsoft device in public - and then to find that there's no legal recourse against the git. This addition of this law is a GREAT ASSET to the community.

realismpol wrote: »

The bill smacks of paranoi to anything which resembles a firearm. Usually these laws are made by people with zero shooting experience and whose only association with firearms comes from their knowledge on tv or when dealing with criminal groupings.

This bill smacks of almost everything the airsofting community has asked for over the course of the last two and a half years. The finer points need to be sorted out, but I for one, have absolute confidence in the current IAA committee to carve out the bad bits (superintendent powers of discretion particularly) and leave us with the fillet of airsoft legislation.

fasterkayote_

To the Mods im not sure if this is in the correct thread.
Last week an avid airsofteer departed for U.S. thru dublin airport to attend the Lion Claw . With him as usual hotel bookings, visa(non Irish) ,passport invitational letter of the event, gears and systema m4 in pelican case and etc. this airsofteer is a berget attendee meaning he had experience with airsoft gears and airport protocols. now the Gardai demanded a certificate of compliance to 1 joule, which he have none at that time and ignorant what that certificate is. frustrated and helpless but eventually the Gardai made a phone call and let him thru..

could anyone in apt with Law or mods shed light on this.

Shiva

fasterkayote_ wrote: »

To the Mods im not sure if this is in the correct thread.
Last week an avid airsofteer departed for U.S. thru dublin airport to attend the Lion Claw . With him as usual hotel bookings, visa(non Irish) ,passport invitational letter of the event, gears and systema m4 in pelican case and etc. this airsofteer is a berget attendee meaning he had experience with airsoft gears and airport protocols. now the Gardai demanded a certificate of compliance to 1 joule, which he have none at that time and ignorant what that certificate is. frustrated and helpless but eventually the Gardai made a phone call and let him thru..

could anyone in apt with Law or mods shed light on this.

Theres no such thing. The Garda was acting beyond his remit, and was either trying to hassle your friend, or didnt know the law with regard to airsoft. There is no authority in this country who certifies airsoft equipment.

Any gob****e can chrono a gun and hand you a piece of paper with the results printed on it, but thats not a certificate. Its a piece of paper with chrono results printed on it.

Theres also nothing in law that says you need any such certificate, and nothing in the Miscellaneous Provisions Bill that says you will need one.

OzCam

Note to clarify: Op. Lion Claws 8 is on this weekend in California. Therefore this event occurred on the outbound journey.

Very strange. I can see them being concerned with something you're trying to bring in, but they shouldn't be concerned about what you're leaving the country with. In addition to what Shiva said a minute ago

TheDoc

Absolute lol if something happens going to berget, can feel it in me waters. Then I'll get the rage.

Puding

Then I'll get the rage.

yes and that will go down so well :rolleyes:

anyway i think this is anothe case of miscommunication, you can not have a cert for an aeg as they have no serial number so how would you know what device it relates to, what do you do just out down ak74 or vfc ak74 not really going to work

Stercus Accidit

Also its a 5 minute job to swap a spring.

AEGs are opened up all the time for maintenance and upgrade work, you can't certify it unless the gearbox was welded shut, as in Germany afaik. But that can never work here, gears and pistons strip, gearboxes need lubing and cleaning, parts upgraded.
I don't own a gearbox I haven't opened, so certs are not an option without some tamper proof sticker linking gearbox to barrel, as a barrel swap can affect muzzle energy also. Nor do I think certification should be necessary.

hoplite

Shiva wrote: »

Any gob****e can chrono a gun and hand you a piece of paper with the results printed on it, but thats not a certificate. Its a piece of paper with chrono results printed on it.
/QUOTE]

LOL

fasterkayote_

Shiva wrote: »

Theres no such thing. The Garda was acting beyond his remit, and was either trying to hassle your friend, or didnt know the law with regard to airsoft. There is no authority in this country who certifies airsoft equipment.

Any gob****e can chrono a gun and hand you a piece of paper with the results printed on it, but thats not a certificate. Its a piece of paper with chrono results printed on it.

Theres also nothing in law that says you need any such certificate, and nothing in the Miscellaneous Provisions Bill that says you will need one.

plus 1 to all that respond- As he is alone and a non national, unlike last year were less than a dozen went to berget and came in as a group that way they never encountered a problem. that certificate thing surprised us as we have no idea about it..

----LONG LIVE TO OUR SPORT....

desertstorm

I've flicked back a good few pages in this thread to check if its already come up in much detail and havnt seen too much, but with the part of the bill referring to the banning of certain types of airsoft devices, how real a threat do people think that is? i ask as i'm thinking of getting a new handgun now and personally if anything id see them as being the most at risk

i was talking to two gardai recently and they didnt seem to mind airsoft, as long as you were doing it safe, however they made it very clear they did not like the hand guns at all considering their appearance and the rising use of their real life counterparts in crime in ireland.

I for one and im sure anyone else of sound mind would not like dropping 140 euro down the drain over this?

I personally think and would hope alot of the shady aspects of the bill such as this and the two tone matter are there as incentives for everyone to pretty much behave as opposed to being the seeds of future plans

Harlequin Wolf

desertstorm wrote: »

I personally think and would hope alot of the shady aspects of the bill such as this and the two tone matter are there as incentives for everyone to pretty much behave as opposed to being the seeds of future plans

The problem with such discresionary powers is that sooner or later someone is gonna come along who will use them, and once one person uses them so will another and then another and the trickle becomes a flood.

If the bill goes through with these discresionary powers over aeg appearance and such it won't be a question of IF but WHEN they are exercised.

Hivemind187

desertstorm wrote: »

I've flicked back a good few pages in this thread to check if its already come up in much detail and havnt seen too much, but with the part of the bill referring to the banning of certain types of airsoft devices, how real a threat do people think that is? i ask as i'm thinking of getting a new handgun now and personally if anything id see them as being the most at risk

i was talking to two gardai recently and they didnt seem to mind airsoft, as long as you were doing it safe, however they made it very clear they did not like the hand guns at all considering their appearance and the rising use of their real life counterparts in crime in ireland.

I for one and im sure anyone else of sound mind would not like dropping 140 euro down the drain over this?

I personally think and would hope alot of the shady aspects of the bill such as this and the two tone matter are there as incentives for everyone to pretty much behave as opposed to being the seeds of future plans

I'd go ahead and buy the pistol, heres why:

No live register of airsoft kit exists and one would be impossible to implement (this matter has been discussed to death and the conclusions have always been the same - it can't be done in a permanent or efficient manner). Therefore, it would be impossible (or at least prohibitively time consuming, expensive and inefficient) to track and trace every pistol bought, sold, altered, lost, damaged beyond repair etc in the republic.

A ban on the sale of new pieces might be possible but the accompanying "amnesty" for persons to hand in their pistols would be little more than a farce.

As for the two-tone issue ... It is my honest opinion that we will never see it happen. the fact is that forcing upstanding members of society to alter their sports equipment in such a manner would be seen as slightly silly - particularly when it is pointed out that such measures not only provide a false sense of security but are actually dangerous in that those who would chose to use them in a criminal act could as easily repaint a two-tone, or worse, two-tone the genuine article.

It is also worth noting that such "discretionary powers" do not yet exist for the minsiter and will like be altered, changed or removed from the final bill. To my knowledge, the introduction of additional measures or restrictions requires the Dail to sign off, gardai input and are still subject to a 60 day period in which the Dail may reverse the decision.

Not worth putting off a tasty new toy for really

TheDoc

Could be the best part of the bill...

No more AUG's

Harlequin Wolf

TheDoc wrote: »

Could be the best part of the bill...

No more AUG's

I like the AUG, i think it's popularity has suffered mostly because of the old flavour of the month syndrome. Besides, you like M4's so your opinion doesn't count

Stercus Accidit

Sorry, thats the first I've heard of this, whats going on?

extremetaz

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Sorry, thats the first I've heard of this, whats going on?

seems Doc doesn't like Augs...






:P

kdouglas

And on that note, I think this thread has run it's course.

Now to wait for more news on the bill as and when it comes.