The Left Wing in Ireland

Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 2:51pm #1

While I know that we have a small left element to our mainstream politics- how come there isnt a large left wing party in the 26?
The majority of our founding fathers were lefties.
Do people ever see the left rising to power here and if so where is it most likely to come from? (ie from an already established party or a new one?)

edanto · 13-05-2009 2:57pm

It can only come from people that care enough joining the established parties and changing their policies.

I see the left in Ireland as too splintered, and busy arguing over the finer points, to collaborate effectively in changing our country. So the question for everyone that cares is, what are you doing about it?

Wheely · 13-05-2009 3:06pm

Fact of the matter is, we're a very right-wing country, we've never had a left wing govt and I don't know if we ever will. It also depends on what you mean by "the left" are you referring to Labour, or SF or the SP,SWP anti-war movement, shell to sea fringe elements, who to be honest I wouldn't want to see within ten miles of Leinster House.

Permabear · 13-05-2009 3:09pm

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djpbarry · 13-05-2009 3:11pm

Well, yeah, relative to you! But then, Thatcher was left-wing compared to you!

Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 3:21pm

Your right wing?
Interesting, what elements of right wing ideology do you agree with?
What right wing policies do you support?

Permabear · 13-05-2009 3:22pm

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Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 3:27pm

I agree with you about fiscal restraint in terms of bailing out the banking sector.
However isnt a lack of government intervention what essentially helped to make a global recession into an economic nightmare here in Ireland.
Greater economic freedom? elaborate

markesmith · 13-05-2009 3:28pm

Less government intervention, after what the banks and property developers just did? And lower taxes would bankrupt the state in the current climate.

I think we're a bit of an unique case. Socialism was always seen as a bit shady by Irish people. As an agricultural society not that long ago, left-wing politics got very short shrift. 'Left' was, and to an extent still is, likely to make a lot of people think 'Red revolution'.

Most people vote based on Dev and Collins, or based on what their fathers vote/voted, or based purely on the candidate as opposed to the party.

Permabear · 13-05-2009 3:29pm

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ionix5891 · 13-05-2009 3:31pm

I always taught the main parties here (except SF) are very centrist (maybe slightly right wing)

i dont think one would find a party in this day and age that preaches restraint, its all bailout this quantitively ease that :pac:

we all know that donegalfella is a bit of the scale with his newfound church of Libertarianism beliefs

ionix5891 · 13-05-2009 3:33pm

some would point out that its exactly the political and economic meddling of the free market that got us here

interest rates were held artificially low flooding Ireland with cheap credit, which in itself is not a bad thing if it was used responsibly by people and the government(S) but as we now we just pissed it all away

Permabear · 13-05-2009 3:37pm

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Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 3:38pm

Libertarian anarchist?
Your almost as much of a dreamer as me!
What would you put forward as being then regulating party in all of this- without a national government someone will have to regulate or will choose to regulate.
Ie warlords will pop up etc

Permabear · 13-05-2009 3:39pm

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Permabear · 13-05-2009 3:41pm

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Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 3:45pm

Every market needs a system of checks and balances in order to guard against exploitation by those with knowledge of those without it.
The governments lack of intervention and implementation of checks and balances allowed those with knowledge (bank executives) to take advantage of those without knowledge ( people looking for loans, mortgages)

Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 3:50pm

I have read up on libertarian anarchism and in theory it is a lovely dream- same way as socalism is.
I am an anarchist myself but in reality it will not ever happen- the greed of individuals will see to that.
I know that governments are just settled roving bandits charging us taxes in order to guarantee our legal rights which are usually imposed on us!
But in reality someone will have to regulate any political system that was put in place now or else some self interested parties would take it upon themselves to increase their power/influence and we would be back to the old situation of having a government in all but name but these new guys would probably be more corrupt

Permabear · 13-05-2009 3:53pm

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Permabear · 13-05-2009 3:58pm

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Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 4:06pm

While I do no have sympathy for people who stupidly over stretched themselves- you are trying to simplify this way too much.
Our property boom was built on wreckless lending to developers which in turn created a massive increase in the amount of cash that was changing hand in the circular flow of income.
The willingness of the banks to then lend ridiculous sums to people in order to keep inflating the bubble meant that they were essentially lending money to individuals in order to drive up the price of property and ensure that they got extra business and faster returns from developers.
It was a no lose policy for bank executives as they knew that the laws werent in place to prevent this massive fraud or to do anything after the event either.
People will always need to buy houses and many had no option but to get a large mortgage in order to get on the property ladder.

af_thefragile · 13-05-2009 4:06pm

Wait a few more years and EU will complete its journey towards becoming EUSSR.

Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 4:07pm

You are talking about individual land ownership- but eventually agroup of guys who are bigger than you are going to show up and say pay us taxes and we will protect you or else we will beat you up and take your land

Wheely · 13-05-2009 4:20pm

Yeah that would work, human nature has always shown itself to be completely non-aggressive, ESPECIALLY when its pursuing lief liberty and happiness. You're right who needs the State to set boundaries.....

Wasn't aware of the FF/FG/Labour policies to abolish private ownership..........
Or standardise wages for that matter

RealityCheck · 13-05-2009 4:24pm

Ireland is a conservative nation with centrist parties. We have absolutely no meaningful form of a left right wing divide. FF, the Greens and Labour are the most central with Labour slightly more left of centre. FF like to float between different sides of centre depending on what way the wind is blowing:D. FG are slighlty more right wing. You then have some fairly moderate socialists (by modern standards) like SF and the Socialist party. There are no hardcore right wing parties. The PDs however being the nearest thing to that, but they were economically liberal right wing as opposed to totalitarian right wing.

All in all very boring and conservative!

Permabear · 13-05-2009 4:25pm

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RealityCheck · 13-05-2009 4:32pm

All that is human nature, especially in Ireland;) That sort of behaviour in my opinion would be more prevalent in a right wing libertarian anarchist society as there would be very few systems in place to knock out such behaviour. People will always attempt to influence each other, and people will continuously do so unless there are stringent systems in place to prevent it.

Poor_old_gill · 13-05-2009 4:35pm

People do need to buy houses- as most people want to have their own private property(as you advocate) and even if they do rent - someone at some stage has to buy in order to facilitate the rent.
Massive fraud- intentionally over inflating a market in order to guarantee short term profits and thus bonuses - when it eventually goes wrong they were able to high tail it out of there as the laws werent in place to pursue them and the regulation wasnt there to monitor the actions of banks.

How do I know this will happen? Historical evidence.
You know this would happen- as I have stated already I am an anarchist at heart but in reality what you are advocating will never happen.

djpbarry · 13-05-2009 4:39pm

I would say that Irish politics is, in general, left-wing, yes, with some parties (FF, FG) being more centrist than others (Labour, SF). However, the point is that “left-wing” and “right-wing” are highly subjective concepts and depend entirely on where one places the centre. For example, a centrist party in Europe is likely to be considered “left-wing” by American standards.

Nobody forced the banks to offer cheap credit.

djpbarry · 13-05-2009 4:41pm

So which is it?

Permabear · 13-05-2009 4:44pm

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The Left Wing in Ireland

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