[US/IRL] 5X16/17 - "The Incident" - 2 Hour Season Finale [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

PirateShampoo

9

Sad Professor wrote: »

I forgot about this. It's possible but afaik we didn't actually see him disturb it. I mean the cabin was already moving around at this point. When Locke arrived at it later he found the circle of ash and no cabin. So I think someone else was responsible for freeing Esau.

An even bigger question is why the hell the Ben thought the cabin was Jacob's in the first place?

Ben explained that, he's never seen Jacob so he didnt actually know if the cabin was his or not. He was just using it to manipulate Locke. Like Ben said he was just has suprised has Locke when things started flying around.

It must of been Esau calling out to Locke, and seeing how easy Locke is manipulated must of locked on to him to him realising he can use him for his own means.

Jay Ru

7

i thought it was a pretty good ep. the minute Frank seen what was in the box i and they didn't show it on screen i said to myself it had to be Lockes body. after the ep where Ben seen his dead daughter i knew Locke wasn't the real Locke any more. i take it Christain is dead to and it just Esua using his form as well.

i wonder why Esau couldn't kill Jacob and are they the same rules that apply to Ben and Widmore not killing each other.

so Hurley is bleseed eh, who owns the guitar case?

tony1kenobi

Jay Ru wrote: »

so Hurley is bleseed eh, who owns the guitar case?

Eloise said that to get back to the Island they had to recreate the 815 flight as accurately as possible. I reckon Jacob gave Hurley the guitar as a replacement/representation of his buddy Charlie.

Just a guess though!

Jay Ru

7

i think theres more to it than that but i cud be wrong to!

Soby

9

tony1kenobi wrote: »

Eloise said that to get back to the Island they had to recreate the 815 flight as accurately as possible. I reckon Jacob gave Hurley the guitar as a replacement/representation of his buddy Charlie.

Just a guess though!

Ye i thought of Charlie too when Jacob said it wasnt his guitar

Niall0

5

i was getting bored towards the end, at least now we dont have any idea whats going to happen. Serious wtf moments at the end.

reas this on loastpedia thought it was funny:
Jacob cooks a "red herring" on a "black rock."

Maybe next season there will be a white smoke monster?

Where do we go from here?

Whats left in the story to tell?

Psychedelic

4

I thought it was really disappointing. The flashbacks where Jacob visits the Losties were too long and boring for the most part (few minutes spent watching Sun & Jin getting married, yawn)....It took until the end till the bomb goes off and then they bang it's over, I thought that would happen early on and we'd get to see the actual incident. The whole "let's stop Jack, now let's help Jack" flip flopping was stupid and just dragged out the time until they threw the bomb down the hole. The killing of Jacob was such an anti climax if they just introduced him only to kill him off like that.

I felt the episode had so much potential to reveal more. The only big revelation was that Locke is actualy possessed. But it just felt like one big tease, all the questions that were raised this season and so many not answered.

Sad Professor

9

Psychedelic wrote: »

The killing of Jacob was such an anti climax if they just introduced him only to kill him off like that.

I don't think he's dead. They always leave leave the fate of new non-regular characters ambiguous like that. I think it's a way of covering themselves in case they can't get the actor back or aren't happy with them. After what almost happened with Carbonell it's a good idea.

DonkeyStyle \o/

8

Man, I hope the nuke brings them all back... that way we can have another Nikki and Paulo episode... I predict they'll be at the core of the mystery surrounding the island.

Agamemnon

8

Very good finale, with enough WTF moments to keep us all guessing for another nine months.

I really hope the next season doesn't start with Jack, Sawyer, Juliet & co safe and sound in 2007. It would be a cop-out, even if it's difficult to see how else they could resolve it with just 16 episodes left.

Is this the first time it's been confirmed on-screen that Richard doesn't age (as opposed him constantly time-travelling)?

I think Juliet is definitely dead, seeing as they gave her and Sawyer a big goodbye scene. I'm glad Sayid wasn't killed off - if they were going to do it, the finale would be the logical time for maximum drama. He might survive the gunshot wound yet.

Requiem4adream wrote:

Claire, in particular, i thought would have made an appearance. Her story arc is becoming more frustrating as time passes, it's beginning to feel like they shelved her character without a real plan.

AFAIK, she was never meant to appear in Season 5 at all but she'll be back next season.

Niall0

5

Sad Professor wrote: »

I don't think he's dead. They always leave leave the fate of new non-regular characters ambiguous like that. I think it's a way of covering themselves in case they can't get the actor back or aren't happy with them. After what almost happened with Carbonell it's a good idea.

What almost happened?

eddiehead

9

The ending I was expecting was completely different! I was under the impression that the reason the statue was demolished was something to do with the origional incident, then when the 1977er's went & changed the past the whole statue would reappear right before our eyes! This would be a hugely symbolic way of showing that they did in fact change the future.....maybe its just me, but I thought that would have been cool.
Thought it was an incredible 2 ep's all the same, absolutely loved the opening scene.

Instant Karma

Good episode, agree that Jacob is one of the good guys and I think it might be that using Jack et al to detonate the nuke was Jacobs fall back plan to reset things. I doubt he's dead tbh.

Charlie

7

The guys who claimed to be the 'good guys', they we're the ones who tried to convince Miles not to travel back to the Island when they pulled him in to the van that night.

I wonder how all that links in to the story. Like Jacob, they to seemed to leave it in Miles' hand whether he went or not, they allowed him to make the choice, afterall they could have just kidnapped him.

But why did they not want Miles to travel back. Did Jacob not want the bomb dropped, or did he, and he forsaw Miles possibly convincing Jack et el not to drop it.

Anyone else a bit disappointed that we got no Desmond in this finale?

Sad Professor

9

Niall0 wrote: »

What almost happened?

After season 3 wrapped he signed up to another show with another network. He was only a guest star on Lost so there was nothing preventing him from doing this. Thankfully it got cancelled but if it hadn't Richard would have disappeared with little or no explanation. That's why he was missing from early season 4.

The same thing happened with Reddick this season which why Abaddon got killed off. And they've hinted that Waltros won't come back either which is why Libby's story probably won't get resolved. They had similar troubles even getting Michael back.

So it's in their interests to leave certain character fates up in the air at the end of a season - just in case.

purcela

2

Good to see more of the statue in this episode, there is talk that it is a statue of Sobek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek)

I didnt understand the point of showing Jacob meeting Katie, Sawyer, etc in the past. It didnt add to the story at all.

If this Esau guy was in the cabin Ben brought Locke to, it would suggest he wanted Locke's help when he called out to him, possibly to kill Jacob. And it really would be pointless mentioning Jacob throughout the last 4 seasons, finally showing him to us, then killing him off in the same episode.

Definitely the worst ending to any episode of Lost ever. Clearly the writers buying themselves more time to come up with a complete script for the final season.

tony1kenobi

purcela wrote: »

Good to see more of the statue in this episode, there is talk that it is a statue of Sobek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek)

I didnt understand the point of showing Jacob meeting Katie, Sawyer, etc in the past. It didnt add to the story at all.

If this Esau guy was in the cabin Ben brought Locke to, it would suggest he wanted Locke's help when he called out to him, possibly to kill Jacob. And it really would be pointless mentioning Jacob throughout the last 4 seasons, finally showing him to us, then killing him off in the same episode.

Definitely the worst ending to any episode of Lost ever. Clearly the writers buying themselves more time to come up with a complete script for the final season.

Jacob meeting the original Losties at various points confirms their landing on the Island was never an accident, also the emphasis on his physically touching them all as though blessing or cursing them. I imagine this will be explained later.

I doubt if Jacob is dead. As someone already pointed out, the mere fact Esau kicked him into the fire before he was dead puts paid to his "loophole" plan. Even without that I don't think, as you said, they'd build this character up so much just to have him get killed by a stabbing that was, frankly, on a par with Norman Bates weak ass run at the cop at the end of psycho.

I don't agree that it was a bad ending. It was a very definite result. Either they are all going to be reunited or they are all dead, and I don't expect the bulk of the main cast are going to spend the last 16 episodes being dead.

That would make for dull viewing.

Soby

9

Jacob-Lostpedia

Any ideas what the suggestion about him touching most of the losties when he visted them is about?

*Edit*..Ah answered above...Ye maybe a blessing

Psychedelic

4

purcela wrote: »

I didnt understand the point of showing Jacob meeting Katie, Sawyer, etc in the past. It didnt add to the story at all.

Yeah that really annoyed me, what was Jacob doing visiting them if he didn't even do or say anything important to them.

Re: Jacob touching them, he didn't touch Hurley or Sayid, did he?

tony1kenobi

Psychedelic wrote: »

Re: Jacob touching them, he didn't touch Hurley or Sayid, did he?

He put his hand on Sayids shoulder as the car hit Nadia.....I think he did the same with Hurley but can't swear to it.

purcela

2

it was very religious for Lost, while religion has been touched on before I dont recall it ever being so obvious in an episode. its a fair point about jacob visiting those people before they came to the island and touching them to show that they are special, etc, but are we meant to believe that he visited every single person who was on the original flight in order to bring them to the island? also, the meetings with sayid and hurley were after the 815 flight, so that takes away from your theory slightly

Soby

9

Psychedelic wrote: »

Yeah that really annoyed me, what was Jacob doing visiting them if he didn't even do or say anything important to them.

Re: Jacob touching them, he didn't touch Hurley or Sayid, did he?

Click to enlarge..I played the Sayid clip over..he does tough him just after Nadia is hit

Sad Professor

9

Yeah, Jacob definitely did touch everyone.

These flashback scenes were very important. Since season 1 we've been asking what was the connection between these people. Were they just strangers on a plane, was it all just coincidence? Or was it destiny? This question has been at the heart of the show.

Remember this conversation from the season 1 finale:

LOCKE: That's why you and I don't see eye-to-eye sometimes, Jack -- because you're a man of science.
JACK: Yeah, and what does that make you?
LOCKE: Me, well, I'm a man of faith. Do you really think all this is an accident -- that we, a group of strangers survived, many of us with just superficial injuries? Do you think we crashed on this place by coincidence -- especially, this place? We were brought here for a purpose, for a reason, all of us. Each one of us was brought here for a reason.
JACK: Brought here? And who brought us here, John?
LOCKE: The Island. The Island brought us here. This is no ordinary place, you've seen that, I know you have. But the Island chose you, too, Jack. It's destiny.
JACK: Did you talk with Boone about destiny, John?
LOCKE: Boone was a sacrifice that the Island demanded. What happened to him at that plane was a part of a chain of events that led us here -- that led us down a path -- that led you and me to this day, to right now.

Psychedelic

4

So by merely touching them, Jacob somehow 'blesses' them and ensures they don't die (or age maybe, like Richard, or not lose weight, like Hurley :pac:) when they crash on the island, or something like that? How did just touching them do anything? And why pick them in particular? It confirmed that they have been brought to the island for a reason, but I thought this was pretty much confirmed anyway in the episode 316.

What the hell is Jacob? Is he or was he a human? Is he a being that takes on human forms? It seems like his history goes back right to the ancient Egyptian culture that lived on the island, and maybe even before then.

FreeOSCAR

9

I cant wait to see what the white smoke monster will look like.

When Jacob said 'they're coming' it basically meant Jack.

Jack VS John
Jacob VS Esau
White VS Black
Widmore VS Ben

The battle for Eden has begun.

Season 6 everybody.

Instant Karma

the ones he touches are all present at the incident, coincidence? Which is why I think this is Jacobs failsafe should Ben kill him in the present.

eddiehead

9

Instant Karma wrote: »

the ones he touches are all present at the incident, coincidence? Which is why I think this is Jacobs failsafe should Ben kill him in the present.

Except Sun, but it does make sense

stevenmu

A decent episode I thought, and thinking back it explains a few things that should really have been obvious.

We know from the early seasons (season 2?), that the incident happened and that it was nearly a catastrophe but not quite. And that after the incident dharma built the swan/hatch station and put the computer in to somehow keep the energy under control, and they also put a fail-safe in just in case.

It now looks like, to me at least, that detonating the nuke prevented the incident becoming a catastrophe like they were trying to do. I'm not sure if we'll see it in S6 or not, but I think what happens next is dharma builds the station and puts in the computer and the failsafe (which is another nuke as they now know that can stop the energy erupting temporarily).

So while setting the nuke off was the right thing to do, it didn't actually undo anything at all, in fact everything played out exactly as it did before: there was an "incident", it was contained before it became catastrophic, and now the station can be built to control it, and it will end up that in the future/present the button won't be pressed in time causing the plane to crash etc. It also explains why it was so important for them to go back to the island and go back in time, to drop the nuke and prevent whatever would have happened otherwise.

In the next season I expect we'll see the station being built, find out how the computer controls the energy and what the numbers mean. It also seems that the failsafe when it went off was only enough to hold the energy back for a while, so in the future/present there's the risk of it building up again and what might get to see what happens.

Agamemnon

8

stevenmu wrote: »

So while setting the nuke off was the right thing to do, it didn't actually undo anything at all, in fact everything played out exactly as it did before

Would this not mean that Faraday was wrong about everything though? He was adamant that the nuke would change things, to the point of sacrificing his life for it.

Nothingcompares

Can we assume that every manifestation of a dead person

(
Christian Shepard appearing to jack, sun etc.
Hurely's multiple visions of Libby and Ana Lucia etc.
Yemi appearing to Eko
Alex appearing to Ben
)

have all been "Esau" in disguise?

S.M.B.

Instant Karma wrote: »

the ones he touches are all present at the incident, coincidence? Which is why I think this is Jacobs failsafe should Ben kill him in the present.

what about a dead john locke?

Niall0

5

Agamemnon wrote: »

Would this not mean that Faraday was wrong about everything though? He was adamant that the nuke would change things, to the point of sacrificing his life for it.

Maybe Faraday thought convincing jack he could change things was the only way for things to happen the right way, but he actually knew that you cant.

Woddle

9

Nothingcompares wrote: »

Can we assume that every manifestation of a dead person

(
Christian Shepard appearing to jack, sun etc.
Hurely's multiple visions of Libby and Ana Lucia etc.
Yemi appearing to Eko
Alex appearing to Ben
)

have all been "Esau" in disguise?

Can't assume that, especially in Hurleys case.
I think Jack has still caused the incident as it can't be a coincidence that chang looses an arm, therefore he only lost his arm because of Jacks actions on the day of the incident. I don't know what will happen next but I do remember Richard saying to Sun that he watched them all die.
I also reckon that Esau is not the black smoke and sth is telling me that the black smoke is on Jacobs side (the good side), I just need to find info to back this up

Great episode but my head is wrecked

Sad Professor

9

Agamemnon wrote: »

Would this not mean that Faraday was wrong about everything though? He was adamant that the nuke would change things, to the point of sacrificing his life for it.

Faraday went crazy though. He wanted to change things to save Charlotte. There was no logic to what he was suggesting. He almost certainly realised he was wrong in his dying moments.

Maybe Faraday thought convincing jack he could change things was the only way for things to happen the right way, but he actually knew that you cant.

I don't think either of them had that awareness. But ironically their belief in free will was what caused everything to happen the way that it did.

Niall0

5

Woddle wrote: »

Can't assume that, especially in Hurleys case.
I think Jack has still caused the incident as it can't be a coincidence that chang looses an arm, therefore he only lost his arm because of Jacks actions on the day of the incident.

We still dont know for sure if anything has changed, i dont think anything has changed but you never know really with lost. Chang lost his hand because of the magnetism, not the bomb. The cliffhanger is just as the bomb goes off so we dont know for sure what happens after the bomb goes off.

Sad Professor wrote: »

Faraday went crazy though. He wanted to change things to save Charlotte. There was no logic to what he was suggesting. He almost certainly realised he was wrong in his dying moments.

Ya that makes sense.

So Jacobs buddy can shapeshift into dead people, Miles can communicate with the dead (just corpses? ) and Hurley can talk to people that are dead.

Jacob met a bunch of the losties and touched them:
sawyer
locke
jin


kate
sayeed
jack
hurley

All of these people were in the 70s and notably kate, jack, sayeed and hurley went back to the 70s when the plane went over the island, but ben sun and the others didnt. Could this be the reason Sun didnt go back?

Sad Professor

9

I wonder what's going to happen with Desmond next year? He was more or less relegated to cameo appearances this season. And in his last scene he was promising Penny (again) that he'd never leave her. With only 17 episodes left there may not be much point bringing him back to the island at this late stage.

I wonder if Cusack will even be a regular next season? Maybe they'll choose to wrap up his story early. I believe ABC are making cast cutbacks on all their other shows and, with the way the ratings are, Lost is unlikely to be an exception.

missingtime

7

What is the translation of what richard said? Does anyone know?

Edit: found it on page 2!!

Oh curse you JJ Abrahams with your shows and their ****ing cliffhangers.

jor el

6

Niall0 wrote: »

We still dont know for sure if anything has changed, i dont think anything has changed but you never know really with lost. Chang lost his hand because of the magnetism, not the bomb. The cliffhanger is just as the bomb goes off so we dont know for sure what happens after the bomb goes off.

I think everything just happened exactly as it did before. If Miles hadn't been there to rescue Chang, who would have? So he must have been there the last time too. If he was there previously, it stands to reason that they were bringing the bomb, so this is still the same as what had already happened.

Good episode, but a bitch of an ending.

It's very interesting that Jacob didn't try to persuade Ben not to kill him. In fact, he pissed Ben off even more by pretty much blanking him, and making him out to be a nobody. Seems that Jacob was just waiting for it, and even let it happen.

Resi12

7

I just hope Juliette's legacy isn't the one who caused the incident!
I hope if she is dead that she prevented it/ or saved them somehow.

I don't see how them arriving back to 2007 would be a cop-out, A lot of people keep saying oh this must be a cop out etc, i think this is just because you don't have an explination yet.

I believe they have all this planned and it's going somewhere..

scull2009

8

just watched. will spend tomorrow reflected whilst at work to come up with a crazy storyline for next season.

Handsome Bob

7

jor el wrote: »

It's very interesting that Jacob didn't try to persuade Ben not to kill him. In fact, he pissed Ben off even more by pretty much blanking him, and making him out to be a nobody. Seems that Jacob was just waiting for it, and even let it happen.

I think this is what seperates Jacob from his foe, the man in black. The man in black (as Locke) believes in manipulation to get what he wants whereas Jacob believes in giving people a choice without influence. Jacob probably knew that his honesty in the way he dealt with Ben was going to be the undoing of him. All he wanted Ben to know was that he had a choice or in other words "free will".

Sad Professor

9

jor el wrote: »

It's very interesting that Jacob didn't try to persuade Ben not to kill him. In fact, he pissed Ben off even more by pretty much blanking him, and making him out to be a nobody. Seems that Jacob was just waiting for it, and even let it happen.

Yeah, it reminded me of the scene in the Harry Potter books between

Snape and Dumbledore. And Ben is a lot like Snape in many ways.

Sherifu

9

That ending wasn't too bad with such a long wait now it's easier to forget about lost for a while.

So many questions as per usual. The only way it can go is to bring the 1970s guys back to the present and there's no way they can all end up in LAX. That'd be up there with it was all a dream.

Looking forward to season 6, fully expect Jacob to still be around.

Ron DMC

8

Just thought of something. When Hurley first visited the swan in '77, him and Miles saw the hatch door (which is made of metal). Surely it was still on site and got sucked into the metal mess?
If things do go ahead as normal and the hatch is built, do they build new door too, and what are the chances of them picking the same numbers for the serial code the second time round?

scull2009

8

referring to the scene where jacob meets hurley in the taxi outside the jail.he says hes special. he doesnt say anything like that to the rest of the characters.
i think hurley will be the defining hero character at the very end of the next season, possibly killing the baddy that leads to peace etc.

Sherifu

9

scull2009 wrote: »

i think hurley will be the defining hero character at the very end of the next season, possibly killing the baddy that leads to peace etc.

I think you may be onto something here, especially if the baddy is a giant cheeseburger.....

PirateShampoo

9

Did anybody else notice the Head of the Statue, It was a Crocodile Head.

The only Egyptian god with that head is Ammit

"Ammit was not worshipped, and she was never regarded as a goddess. Instead, she embodied all that the Egyptians feared, threatening to bind them to eternal restlessness if they did not follow the principle of Ma'at. Thus Ammit was depicted with the head of a crocodile or dog, the front part of her body as a lioness or leopard, and her hind quarters in the form of a hippopotamus, a combination of those animals which were considered as the most dangerous to the Ancient Egyptians. Although often referred to as a demon, by destroying evil she acted as a force for good."


"Her role is reflected in her name, which means Devourer or, more accurately, and less euphemistically, Bone Eater, and her titles such as Devourer of the dead, Devourer of millions (Am-heh in Egyptian), Eater of hearts, Eater of Souls, and Greatness of Death. In some traditions, Ammit was said to stand by a lake of fire, into which the unworthy hearts were cast, rather than eating them. In this role, Ammit was more the lake guardian than a destroyer, which some scholars believe may be evidence of syncretism of a fiery lake belief, from an as yet unidentified elsewhere. In still another version, Ammut ate the condemned person, rather than only the heart. An evil person then dissolved forever in her stomach."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammit


I belive Ammit could be the Smoke monster, they have the same function.

Or i could be wrong and it could be Sobek

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek

Sad Professor

9

There's a lot of speculation also that the statue is Taweret - the Eyptian goddess of fertility, pregnancy and childbirth, which fits very well with the show. And it has four toes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawaret

Patricide

5

I still think it was sebek(aka sobek). Everything fits, including the ankh in the hand and staff in the other which was a defining feature found on many illustrations of it.

Another thing just hit me there about what lost might enevitably boil down to is choice or free will, versus the idea of fate or destiny...especially with the time travel nothing can change, against jacob telling everyone that THEY have a choice. Whatcha guys recon?

cooker3

Ugh, I can't believe that ending. That is so evil to end it like that.

So much mythology and symbolism in the episode. I shall have to watch it again as I am being totally blinded by the ending.