unwarranted litter fine,what can i do ?

delllat

just recieved a letter from council saying i am responsible for three dumped sacks of rubbish in dublin city centre about a month ago and i am to be fined 150 euro or 3000 if it goes to court

the letter alledges that i? dumped 3 sacks outside my building (apartment block) at 8 am

but wait ,it gets weirder

I live alone and would never even have 3 sacks of rubbish at any one time to dump (i always put a sticker on any bag i leave out but its never more than 1 bag at a time )

I also havent been up at 8am in months since my last job ended

what can i do about this ?

jor el

Ask them what proof they have that it's yours.

Most likely, there's something in one of them that has your name and address on it. Do you leave your rubbish out in communal bins? If so, is it possible someone took a load of bags out of one of them to make room for their own? If your name was in one of them, then that's how they think it was you.

junior_apollo

delllat wrote: »

just recieved a letter from council saying i am responsible for three dumped sacks of rubbish in dublin city centre about a month ago and i am to be fined 150 euro or 3000 if it goes to court

the letter alledges that i? dumped 3 sacks outside my building (apartment block) at 8 am

but wait ,it gets weirder

I live alone and would never even have 3 sacks of rubbish at any one time to dump (i always put a sticker on any bag i leave out but its never more than 1 bag at a time )

I also havent been up at 8am in months since my last job ended

what can i do about this ?

I guess the first starting point is to contact the council and inform them of their mistake..
Obviously they would need proof it was you or else they would have no way to enforce the penalty. Otherwise if/when it went to court it would be thrown out as they would have no way to prove it was you.
When you contact them make sure to write down the times and peoples names of who you have spoken to on the phone.. inform them also that you are going to email them/write to them with the same information, that way they have verbal and written confirmation and there is a record of all this happening for yourself also if they do want to go to court...

Hopefully they will realise it was a mistake and will correct it.
Best of luck... these things take ages though... :rolleyes:

MadsL

Got done with this ourselves, they provided photocopies of our name and address on letters and reciepts. Had absolutely no idea how our rubbish ended up on the street - I suspect that the waste management company had let it blow off the truck.

No way to prove that we didn't dump it so ended up paying the fine.

If they are being specific about the time that it was dumped, you might be able to ask the apartment block management if they have CCTV footage?

I now shred (cross-cut) ANYTHING that is identifiable to our address, it's a good idea anyway. Not only does it prevent litter fines caused by the waste management contractor being careless, but Dumpster diving (and particularly paper recycling) is an identity thief's favourite playground. I'm always amazed that my neighbours throw out things like mobile bills, utility bills and the like.

Boggles

MadsL wrote: »

No way to prove that we didn't dump it so ended up paying the fine.

No way to prove you did dump it though.

Fight it all the way OP, you did nothing wrong, take it to the local radio station / Paper if you have to. Talk to Joe / Gerry / Pat.

daheff

could somebody have taken your sticker off the bag? then it would be a case of dumping for the council.

also i would say that if somebody challenged the councils eveidence of a letter with name /add in a dumped bag in court saying that it could have been somebody else putting the letter/ rubbish bag out then the case might be dismissed by court

rubadub

Boggles wrote: »

No way to prove you did dump it though.

Exactly. I hate the auld bollix in number 22, can I just make print out a letter with his name on it stick it in a bag and dump my rubbish in my own front garden, ring the council, get it collected free and hit him with a €150 fine?

Photojoe

MadsL wrote: »

Got done with this ourselves, they provided photocopies of our name and address on letters and reciepts. Had absolutely no idea how our rubbish ended up on the street - I suspect that the waste management company had let it blow off the truck.

No way to prove that we didn't dump it so ended up paying the fine.

If they are being specific about the time that it was dumped, you might be able to ask the apartment block management if they have CCTV footage?

I now shred (cross-cut) ANYTHING that is identifiable to our address, it's a good idea anyway. Not only does it prevent litter fines caused by the waste management contractor being careless, but Dumpster diving (and particularly paper recycling) is an identity thief's favourite playground. I'm always amazed that my neighbours throw out things like mobile bills, utility bills and the like.

Jesus will you grow a spine. Why did you just pay up when you were in the right? The burden of proof is with them.

dudara

Photojoe wrote: »

Jesus will you grow a spine. Why did you just pay up when you were in the right? The burden of proof is with them.

Finding a piece of paper with a name and address on it IS proof enough for the Council. It may seem tough but that is the way it is.

Photojoe

dudara wrote: »

Finding a piece of paper with a name and address on it IS proof enough for the Council. It may seem tough but that is the way it is.

Actually its not. Are legal system is a bit more forgiving than that.

jor el

Photojoe wrote: »

Actually its not. Are legal system is a bit more forgiving than that.

It may not be enough proof for a court, but it is for the council. If you challenge the fine in court, and loose, you face an even bigger fine. It all depends on what evidence the council have.

The OP should find out exactly what they have on him before deciding anything.

ShooterSF

If it goes to court is it a criminal issue or a civil one. If it's criminal surely there has to be proof without any doubt doesn't it?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Boggles wrote: »

No way to prove you did dump it though.

Fight it all the way OP, you did nothing wrong, take it to the local radio station / Paper if you have to. Talk to Joe / Gerry / Pat.

You have obviously not been involved in this field. Documentss with your name and address are sufficient to link the litter back to you.
As for fighting it. Get details certainly but be very sure of your standing before fighting too far in court as the fines increase greatly if you fail in court.

OP : Contact the council and hold off on advice here (or from radio stations) until you talk to them.

Tails142

If it goes to court all you need to do to avoid a fine is show you paid your litter collection fees or receipts for the stickers and it gets thrown out

delllat

Tails142 wrote: »

If it goes to court all you need to do to avoid a fine is show you paid your litter collection fees or receipts for the stickers and it gets thrown out

i dont understand how showing receipts would help since a person could buy 5 stickers and put out 100 bags and still dump 95 of them illegally

foggy_lad

delllat wrote: »

i dont understand how showing receipts would help since a person could buy 5 stickers and put out 100 bags and still dump 95 of them illegally

it shows an intent to pay for refuse collection which would shed more doubt on the illegal dumping claim. if you have paid for refuse collection for the period of the illegal dumping and can prove it then why would you resort to dumping illegaly?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Foggy Lad you are stating nonsense there. Buy some stickers and dump as many bags as you like. Your assertion does not hold up in court as cases to date have proven.

delllat

thanks for all the adbvice anyway,i havent decided what to do yet

ive recieved another letter from them saying if i dont pay the 150 in the next 7 days theyre going to set their solicitor on me

WillieCocker

Ouch.
Contact them ASAP and ask to be sent a copy of evidence, hopefully that should delay this "1 week" warning.

Lollipops23

why havn't you contacted them??i'd have thought that would be your 1st port of call...

delllat

i called them and spent 10-15 minutes on hold after i got the first notice so i just decided im not going to waste any more credit on these cnuts and then i forgot about about the matter completely until i got the solicitors letter threat

Photojoe

State your case to the solicitor. He will see drop the case if he thinks he will lose in court.

Go to court if you have to. stand up for yourself.

padocon

When you ask them to send you proof, they may back down, think its too much hassle.

When people who do dump rubbish get that letter they probably relies they have been caught and pay.

People in a rented house moved out and new people came in. The post man accidently delivered the 1st peoples post to the rented house. The people in rented house dumped rubbish with letter in in. 1st people who were innocent got blamed.
They got a letter from the land lord saying they had moved out of the house ages ago, and they won!


It could have been a letter in your case too.


To stop the above, buy a shredder.

Good luck with the case!
Keep us posted!

jor el

delllat wrote: »

i called them and spent 10-15 minutes on hold after i got the first notice so i just decided im not going to waste any more credit on these cnuts and then i forgot about about the matter completely until i got the solicitors letter threat

You're not really helping yourself much. It's not good enough to just give up, and as councils all over the country can and have brought people to court over litter fines, and those people have sometimes lost, you face the real chance of getting a heavier fine. What's the cost of a 30 minute phone call compared to the cost of a solicitor, court appearance, larger fine, etc?

Asking for proof is unlikely to make them back down, but you do need to ask. You said you're out of work now, so why not call to the council offices if you don't want to spend money on the phone?

If it does get to court, you won't be able to show any evidence that you've tried to get this sorted out, and the judge will not look upon that favorably. It will not be good enough to simply say you did nothing wrong. The council have evidence that you've been dumping illegally, and you need to disprove that, or show evidence that you've at least tried.

It's all well for others here to tell you to go to court and stand your ground, but you need some ground to stand on first.

leex

I got a fine from a neighbouring county council a couple of years ago for litter. When I got in contact with the litter warden it turned out a car service invoice (with my name/address on it) had been found on the side of the road in a different county. They also found documents with another persons name in the same place.

The service invoice was for a car I had traded in a year earlier. I got in contact with dealer I traded car into and got a written letter outlining who they sold my car on to. This name matched the name on the other docs the litter warden found. Forwarded this to litter warden and heard no more about it.

It's a crap way they have of issuing fines. Basically I could have an enemy - Joe Bloggs - and write his name and address on some letters and dump it illegally. If found by wardens he will get fined and doesn't really have any way of proving it was not his.

chasm

padocon wrote: »

People in a rented house moved out and new people came in. The post man accidently delivered the 1st peoples post to the rented house. The people in rented house dumped rubbish with letter in in. 1st people who were innocent got blamed.
They got a letter from the land lord saying they had moved out of the house ages ago, and they won!

That is pretty much what happened in my case-(only it wasnt the tenants that dumped it), I hadnt lived at the address for over 2 years, I phoned them and tried to explain how i believed the litter had got where it was, but they didnt want to know, I was told pay the fine or go to court! I got a solicitor, who made them listen and they eventually dropped the case.

I asked the council in question to pay my legal fees but they as good as laughed at me and refused, saying that it was my choice to instruct a solicitor. I put in a complaint to the ombudsman on the grounds that i felt that had no choice than to instruct a solicitor as the council were unwilling to hear me out in the first instance and gave me 2 options pay or go to court!. (There were also a few other factors that came into my complaint as well, but i could be here all night:eek:)
After about 2 years i received a cheque for my fees, which werent very high but i didnt see why i should pay them-they reckoned it was costing too much to correspond to!!

OP, go have a chat with your solicitor-he/She will no doubt be able to advise you on the best course of action. And good luck