Gardaí to stand trial in connection with alleged assault on teenager

dvpower

senordingdong wrote: »

Perhaps the poster isn't suggesting that it's ok for Gardaí to break the law, rather he would prefer the laws be changed to decriminalise the use of force by Gardaí, or atleast allow the Gardaí to reserve judgment on whether it should be used or not.

This again?
I've yet to see anyone who advocates this explain how this would work in practice.

ILA

dvpower wrote: »

This again?
I've yet to see anyone who advocates this explain how this would work in practice.

Indeed if you remove even the thin venere of accountability that exists, I wouldn't like to see what would happen.

Thank god this is only AH

MagicSean

senordingdong wrote: »

Perhaps the poster isn't suggesting that it's ok for Gardaí to break the law, rather he would prefer the laws be changed to decriminalise the use of force by Gardaí, or atleast allow the Gardaí to reserve judgment on whether it should be used or not.

Gardaí are already able to use proportionate force to restrain a person without fear of criminal prosecution. While there are a number of areas where what is allowed can be overly restrictive I think the principle as it exists is entirely sufficient.

bamboozle

Wicklowrider wrote: »

The day the four of them burst into one of the gangland headcases homes and take on a grown man - even if it does take four of them is the day I'll agree with you. But no, four heros beat one scumbag. big deal. they're paid to uphold our law - not make it up as they go along. I don't know even know what the young fella was supposed to have done.

story i heard was an off duty garda was walking home along Camden Street, bumped into the young lad, words were had, scuffle ensued and the garda came out the worse for wear.
Next morning he rounded up a few garda mates and they paid a visit to the lad.

not standing up for the gardai, but that lad was looking for trouble and he got it.

Snakeblood

bamboozle wrote: »

story i heard was an off duty garda was walking home along Camden Street, bumped into the young lad, words were had, scuffle ensued and the garda came out the worse for wear.
Next morning he rounded up a few garda mates and they paid a visit to the lad.

not standing up for the gardai, but that lad was looking for trouble and he got it.

If that's true all the gardai involved should be fired and have charges pressed.

The youth may well be a total scumbag, but he didn't swear to obey and enforce the law.

steddyeddy

Degsy wrote: »

And the mother too..seeing she was the one who alleged the assault...probably in her PJs.
So what were the cops doing at her flat in the first place if the kid was completely innocent?
These people and thier waster parents make me sick.

You automatically assumed that because the gaurds were in her flat they had the right to be in her flat and because they bet her son they had the right to beat her son. I really hope you dont work in law.

dvpower

bamboozle wrote: »

story i heard was an off duty garda was walking home along Camden Street, bumped into the young lad, words were had, scuffle ensued and the garda came out the worse for wear.
Next morning he rounded up a few garda mates and they paid a visit to the lad.

not standing up for the gardai, but that lad was looking for trouble and he got it.

If that's accurate, and they're convicted, then the gardai will have sacrificed their careers for very little.

senordingdong

dvpower wrote: »

This again?
I've yet to see anyone who advocates this explain how this would work in practice.

A few serious changes to the current legislation...are you asking someone like me to outline the suggestions/proposals?

k_mac wrote:

Gardaí are already able to use proportionate force to restrain a person without fear of criminal prosecution. While there are a number of areas where what is allowed can be overly restrictive I think the principle as it exists is entirely sufficient.

And who determines what is and is not proportionate?
The methods I would like to see are no more flawed than the methods being used now.
Just look at the Gerard Curtis case from last week.

jackiebaron

johnny_knoxvile wrote: »

i agree to a point because this country is out of control with violent thugs, who dont fear the justice system.

But in this case, its pure stupidity on the part of the Gardaì.

Am I supposed to fear the justice system? Is government supposed to fear the people (like in France) or are the people supposed to fear the government (like in the US)?

senordingdong

jackiebaron wrote: »

Am I supposed to fear the justice system?

If you are a criminal...YES!!!

dvpower

senordingdong wrote: »

A few serious changes to the current legislation...are you asking someone like me to outline the suggestions/proposals?

Yes. If you are able to advocate some change you should be able to tell us how these changes would operate.

For example, if you want it to be legal for a garda to dole out a few slaps on an adhoc basis to hardened scumbags, then you should be able to explain how we could remain within the EU while implementing a system of extrajudicial corporal punishment.

Funkfield

Pyr0 wrote: »

Can someone please tell me who the f*ck Lugs Brannigan is ?!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Christopher_Branigan

senordingdong

dvpower wrote: »

Yes. If you are able to advocate some change you should be able to tell us how these changes would operate.

For example, if you want it to be legal for a garda to dole out a few slaps on an adhoc basis to hardened scumbags, then you should be able to explain how we could remain within the EU while implementing a system of extrajudicial corporal punishment.

Abridged version...if you are commiting a crime, are under suspicion of committing a crime or are convicted of committing a crime, then you're rights should be suspended and put under review.

jackiebaron

bamboozle wrote: »

story i heard was an off duty garda was walking home along Camden Street, bumped into the young lad, words were had, scuffle ensued and the garda came out the worse for wear.
Next morning he rounded up a few garda mates and they paid a visit to the lad.

not standing up for the gardai, but that lad was looking for trouble and he got it.

Where exactly did you hear this story?

steddyeddy

senordingdong wrote: »

Abridged version...if you are commiting a crime, are under suspicion of committing a crime or are convicted of committing a crime, then you're rights should be suspended and put under review.

so by your assesment the gaurds involved in the assault should have their rights suspended!

senordingdong

steddyeddy wrote: »

so by your assesment the gaurds involved in the assault should have their rights suspended!

Yep.
And a few slaps dished out to them for good emasure.

dvpower

senordingdong wrote: »

Abridged version...if you are commiting a crime, are under suspicion of committing a crime or are convicted of committing a crime, then you're rights should be suspended and put under review.

I suspect that my neighbour stole my post. Since she no longer has rights under your system, I'm going to burn her car. See, the reason she stole my post is that she suspected that I robbed her underwear from her line (she can't prove anything ). I wouldn't mind, but a few years ago she was convicted of a minor public order offence, so she had no rights in the first place.

Your new improved justice system needs a few tweaks.

jackiebaron

senordingdong wrote: »

If you are a criminal...YES!!!

I'm not a criminal unless and until I have been fairly tried and convicted of something. Got that?
Now Guards don't determine who is a criminal and who isn't. They don't even try or sentence alleged criminals. If a Guard can determine who is a criminal then he can casually say that EVERYONE is a criminal, including you and me.
You try to split the legal system so that you are given different treatment from others. Well it doesn't work like that pal. Due process covers everyone from the saint to the scumbag. Try separating the two and pretty soon you'll be up in arms because your teenage son got the head boxed off him for giving lip to a few guards after a bout of knacker drinking. You'll be blabbing about how he's not a scumbag and has never been in trouble before but in the eyes of the guards who thumped the sh!t out of him he's just another little scumbag that you think they should batter with impunity.

Of course you'll say "Oh but my son would never do that." Heard it all before mate. The very fückers who scream for the police to beat the bollocks out of people without mercy are the very same fückers who would insult the police for giving them a speeding ticket when they should be out "catching real criminals". And when that insulted guard can lawfully smash you in the teeth with his baton are you going to thank him for doing a wonderful job and are you going to stand by your childish little snivelling crypto-fascist beliefs?
Doubt it.

MagicSean

senordingdong wrote: »

A few serious changes to the current legislation...are you asking someone like me to outline the suggestions/proposals?


And who determines what is and is not proportionate?
The methods I would like to see are no more flawed than the methods being used now.
Just look at the Gerard Curtis case from last week.

The garda decides based on the situation before him. If there is a quaestion as to excessive force it can be investigated by the Ombudsman.

jackiebaron wrote: »

I'm not a criminal unless and until I have been fairly tried and convicted of something. Got that?

What a load of bull. You can be a criminal without a conviction if you engage in criminal behaviour. If you're convicted you become a convicted criminal.

jackiebaron

What I find most hypocritical about those who advocate that the Guards beat up "undesirables" is that they are the very same people who call the Provos a bunch of bloodthirsty scumbag thugs for doing the exact same thing.
A neighbourhood is terrorised by drugdealers and joy riders...it's OK for the Gardai to smash a few heads but when the Gardai don't or can't do this and the IRA come in a kneecap a few or break some limbs and faces well then that's out of order completely.

Nodin

senordingdong wrote: »

I suggested that the truth, whatever it is, is being distorted.

I find it hard to believe that four squad cars full of Gardaí just randomly showed up at an innocent teenagers house to beat him up for no reason.
.................

Aha.

You see, the thing is, the Gardai aren't allowed - nor more than thee or me - to arrive at peoples houses and beat them up. The truth is that the reason they arrived at this persons house is well documented, and doesn't in fact relate to his convictions.

jackiebaron wrote:

Where exactly did you hear this story?

It was in the papers at the time of the incident. A look through the thread should provide you with a link

senordingdong

dvpower wrote: »

Your new improved justice system needs a few tweaks.

It certainly does!
But I know if we put our heads together, you and I, with your educated rational thinking, and my streetwise snivelling crypto-fascist beliefs we can devise the perfect system.
We could even wear capes as we do it.

k_mac wrote:

The garda decides based on the situation before him. If there is a quaestion as to excessive force it can be investigated by the Ombudsman.

Ah yeah, ofcourse I know that, but just look at the Gerard Curtis thing from last week. Such an over the top song and dance to come for what was realistically, a minor incident.

Jackiebaron wrote:

I'm not a criminal unless and until I have been fairly tried and convicted of something. Got that?
Now Guards don't determine who is a criminal and who isn't. They don't even try or sentence alleged criminals. If a Guard can determine who is a criminal then he can casually say that EVERYONE is a criminal, including you and me.
You try to split the legal system so that you are given different treatment from others. Well it doesn't work like that pal. Due process covers everyone from the saint to the scumbag. Try separating the two and pretty soon you'll be up in arms because your teenage son got the head boxed off him for giving lip to a few guards after a bout of knacker drinking. You'll be blabbing about how he's not a scumbag and has never been in trouble before but in the eyes of the guards who thumped the sh!t out of him he's just another little scumbag that you think they should batter with impunity.

Of course you'll say "Oh but my son would never do that." Heard it all before mate. The very fückers who scream for the police to beat the bollocks out of people without mercy are the very same fückers who would insult the police for giving them a speeding ticket when they should be out "catching real criminals". And when that insulted guard can lawfully smash you in the teeth with his baton are you going to thank him for doing a wonderful job and are you going to stand by your childish little snivelling crypto-fascist beliefs?
Doubt it.

Yes yes yes, calm down, don;t give yourself an aneurysm pointing out how silly my suggestion was. I already know it's silly, though I do crave serious reform and an iron fist for our legal system...(and parenting in this country, but that's another story.)

Wicklowrider

OK - the kid/scumbag/victim/mastercriminal is on TV now. Jesus - he is hardly Rambo. Any of you keyboard warriors supporting the cops want to explain how it took 4 of them to beat him?
They don't come any yellower than those cowardly ****s. Bet they don't need High Viz vests with those humongous yellow stripes down their backs.
Before anyone starts mouthing - I have served and been in danger on behalf of this state,sometimes engaging hardened criminals, but it never crossed my mind to break the law or batter anyone.

BTW if 4 scumbags beat a garda I'd be equally disgusted.

znv6i3h7kqf9ys

OK - the Gardai probably had a good reason for doing this (in their opinion.) That doesn't make it right though. Hitler probably had a good reason for invading Poland (in his opinion) same principle.....not right. But the law is black and white and it looks as if there is enough evidence to support the claims that they broke the law. If you get caught breaking the law you deserve to be punnished. It's ironic how many Gardai don't feel that this applies to them. I think it was very stupid and arrogant of them to roll up in uniform and do this. It was probably fueled by emotion. If they wanted to dish out some vigi justice they should have done the usual. Arrest the guy on some bogus charge, kick the crap out of him in custody and say he resisted or lashed out.

dvpower

Roberto Clever Vacuum wrote: »

If they wanted to dish out some vigi justice they should have done the usual. Arrest the guy on some bogus charge, kick the crap out of him in custody and say he resisted or lashed out.

Maybe they were just upping their game by going to his home.
According to Owen Gaffney, it wasn't the first time.

rte.ie wrote:

He said Garda Sean O Leary had been battering him since he was 16 years old.

TheZohanS

dvpower wrote: »

Maybe they were just upping their game by going to his home.
According to Owen Gaffney, it wasn't the first time.

RTE.ie

he has 27 previous convictions.

He deserved everything he got, they should have hit him harder. Put some manners on the scumbag.

fontanalis

jackiebaron wrote: »

I'm not a criminal unless and until I have been fairly tried and convicted of something. Got that?
Now Guards don't determine who is a criminal and who isn't. They don't even try or sentence alleged criminals. If a Guard can determine who is a criminal then he can casually say that EVERYONE is a criminal, including you and me.
You try to split the legal system so that you are given different treatment from others. Well it doesn't work like that pal. Due process covers everyone from the saint to the scumbag. Try separating the two and pretty soon you'll be up in arms because your teenage son got the head boxed off him for giving lip to a few guards after a bout of knacker drinking. You'll be blabbing about how he's not a scumbag and has never been in trouble before but in the eyes of the guards who thumped the sh!t out of him he's just another little scumbag that you think they should batter with impunity.

Of course you'll say "Oh but my son would never do that." Heard it all before mate. The very fückers who scream for the police to beat the bollocks out of people without mercy are the very same fückers who would insult the police for giving them a speeding ticket when they should be out "catching real criminals". And when that insulted guard can lawfully smash you in the teeth with his baton are you going to thank him for doing a wonderful job and are you going to stand by your childish little snivelling crypto-fascist beliefs?
Doubt it.

Well said, it's always ok when it's someone else.

dvpower

TheZohan wrote: »

He deserved everything he got, they should have hit him harder. Put some manners on the scumbag.

He didn't at the time of the alleged assault.



You don't mess with TheZohan :rolleyes:

steddyeddy

TheZohan wrote: »

He deserved everything he got, they should have hit him harder. Put some manners on the scumbag.

And what exactly how was gaurds beating him going to help him reform, if anything it would dent his will to reform if the system was as violent as he was.

TheZohanS

dvpower wrote: »

He didn't at the time of the alleged assault.

Do we know how many he had at the time of the alleged assault?