Gardaí to stand trial in connection with alleged assault on teenager

prinz

Snakeblood wrote: »

He didn't say that at all. He said that most complaints weren't subject to a full investigation.

A lot don't have to be. Which is why they wouldn't show up as being fully investigated, the point k_mac was trying to make. You don't need to fully invesitgate a complaint if it's obvious from day 1 that the complaint has no merit.

Dempo1

Have been following this case with interest, no doubt the teenager in question has a checkered history but does this automatically entitled Gardai to enter peoples homes without warrant. What seems to be missed in the argument is why firstly it took ten Gardai to take it upon themselves to enter a teenagers home, not withstanding the fact we are led to believe there is a shortage of Gardai.

I support the Gardai whole heartedly but being objective, something stinks to high heaven about this case which has all the hallmarks of vengeance. There is also clear evidence an assault of some kind took place, there is no dispute about the absence of a warrant and its intriguing that student Gardai are prosecution witnesses.

The collapse of the trial and undisclosed reasons foe same further suggest the prosecution are examining new evidence and the Gardai inspectorate are also investigating. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark me thinks.

Snakeblood

prinz wrote: »

A lot don't have to be. Which is why they wouldn't show up as being fully investigated, the point k_mac was trying to make. You don't need to fully invesitgate a complaint if it's obvious from day 1 that the complaint has no merit.

Not arguing that, but willfully misinterpreting what other people say isn't the the best way to win an argument.

MagicSean

Snakeblood wrote: »

He didn't say that at all. He said that most complaints weren't subject to a full investigation.

He said only 1 in 200 bad deeds are reprimanded. So he believes they are all bad deeds and only 0.05% are disciplined.

Snakeblood

k_mac wrote: »

He said only 1 in 200 bad deeds are reprimanded. So he believes they are all bad deeds and only 0.05% are disciplined.

Actually, yes. Sorry! He's wrong to say that. I was coming from the position that probably more than .5% need to be investigated.


Mea culpa.

slurcher

No im not assuming 100% are true, but in criminal cases taken against joe public for assault do only 0.5% end up in a conviction - no. The police shouldnt be above the law and they clearly are. Do you beleive that 99.5 complaints made against the gardai are false?

slurcher

that was a response to K_mac btw

steddyeddy

k_mac wrote: »

Maybe it's because the Gardaí do not have the option of shooting someone if they resist arrest. The absence of a firearm demands that they be more physical on a regular basis. And the penalties for attacking a Garda in this country are pitiful too (the complainant in this case broke a gardas jaw and only got community service) so there is little deterrant for a person not to attack a Garda. So restraining a person is less about a power trip and more about saving your own skin. Its just as easy for a midget to bite you as it is for a giant.

restraining a person is quite different from assaulting a person, calls to mind the case were the young lad in gaurda custody in store street station hung himself from being over "restrained". In london not to long ago only the detectives carried guns so I dont buy the firearm thing.

Gerone71

dlofnep wrote: »

What exactly did this teenager do that warranted a beating? Does anybody know and have proof to back up the said claims?

Thanks.

The bag of scum smashed the jaw of a female Garda.

slurcher

On the AGSI website information from 2009, of 2097 complaints against the gardai, 2 ended up in conviction so 0.01% of complaints will make it to conviction. I wonder how many dont bother even complaining with that very limited prospect of justice.

Obviously more detail of the actual complaints needs to be looked into - im not sure if this information is available to the public.

slurcher

Gerone71 wrote: »

The bag of scum smashed the jaw of a female Garda.

Then it was the duty of the gardai to prosecute him and not beat him up.

The Waltzing Consumer

slurcher wrote: »

On the AGSI website information from 2009, of 2097 complaints against the gardai, 2 ended up in conviction so 0.01% of complaints will make it to conviction. I wonder how many dont bother even complaining with that very limited prospect of justice.

Obviously more detail of the actual complaints needs to be looked into - im not sure if this information is available to the public.

Does it not give more info than that? How many of these complaints were accusing the Gardai of something serious that would result in a conviction? How many were just cranky people who complain at anything?

I am gonna give the Gardai the benefit of the doubt because any person who deals and has experience working with the public knows that 99.9% of complaints are complete rubbish.

slurcher

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Does it not give more info than that? How many of these complaints were accusing the Gardai of something serious that would result in a conviction? How many were just cranky people who complain at anything?

I am gonna give the Gardai the benefit of the doubt because any person who deals and has experience working with the public knows that 99.9% of complaints are complete rubbish.

The majority of gardai do a good job which I understand is difficult, but why is their word more beleivable than the rest of us, why do you automatically assume that 99.9% the public making complaints about the police are lying?

Do you beleive that being a garda makes you morally better than the rest of us. The idea that any group in society is morally better is absurd, look at the church scandal, how morally superior were they?

The public should be able to complain if they feel the actions of the police are unjustified or illegal and the complaints should be investigated by an independant body. The GSOC is not.

The Waltzing Consumer

slurcher wrote: »

The majority of gardai do a good job which I understand is difficult, but why is their word more beleivable than the rest of us, why do you automatically assume that 99.9% the public making complaints about the police are lying?

Do you beleive that being a garda makes you morally better than the rest of us. The idea that any group in society is morally better is absurd, look at the church scandal, how morally superior were they?

The public should be able to complain if they feel the actions of the police are unjustified or illegal and the complaints should be investigated by an independant body. The GSOC is not.

Heh, no you missed my point. It is nothing about Gardai being better then anyone else. It is the simple fact that anyone who has ever worked with the public knows that the vast vast majority of complaints are usually complete nonsense.

Just think about your own experience, there is probably some time that you had to deal with public, how many complaints did you get which were absolute rubbish? I know from my own experience, and for my colleagues, majority of complaints are stupid, and it is easy to remember the legitimate ones cause they were so unique and rare.

slurcher

Regarding Rossport

The GSOC had received up to October 2009 a total of 111 complaints, in regard to policing of the protests, of which 78 were deemed admissible. The Director of Public Prosecutions were sent seven files but the DPP did not accept evidence for criminal prosecution of gardaí in all seven cases.[6]

I was in Mayo and spoke to many people in the pubs there and many claimed they were assaulted - there is footage on youtube showing how the police were very heavy handed. The majority of them were residents, not protesters from outside. Were they all talking rubbish?

slurcher

slurcher wrote: »

Then it was the duty of the gardai to prosecute him and not beat him up.

Nah, that was the duty of the judiciary. Who gave him COMMUNITY SERVICE. Which he didn't even do.

The Waltzing Consumer

slurcher wrote: »

Regarding Rossport

The GSOC had received up to October 2009 a total of 111 complaints, in regard to policing of the protests, of which 78 were deemed admissible. The Director of Public Prosecutions were sent seven files but the DPP did not accept evidence for criminal prosecution of gardaí in all seven cases.[6]

I was in Mayo and spoke to many people in the pubs there and many claimed they were assaulted - there is footage on youtube showing how the police were very heavy handed. The majority of them were residents, not protesters from outside. Were they all talking rubbish?

Regarding Rossport, believe nothing of what you hear and nothing of what you see. So much lying and rent-a-mobs have occured with that whole issue, it is impossible to believe any of it. Sorry if you are sincere, but there is no credibility with it so real complaints are stuck between lies and more lies. It is a shame that happens but c'est la vie!

slurcher

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Heh, no you missed my point. It is nothing about Gardai being better then anyone else. It is the simple fact that anyone who has ever worked with the public knows that the vast vast majority of complaints are usually complete nonsense.

Just think about your own experience, there is probably some time that you had to deal with public, how many complaints did you get which were absolute rubbish? I know from my own experience, and for my colleagues, majority of complaints are stupid, and it is easy to remember the legitimate ones cause they were so unique and rare.

I do get complaints, when a complaint is made I take it seriously and the client has the option of requesting someone else to care for them. My client base are the elderly, I dont automatically assume, silly ole feckers, what do they know. I try to listen and adjust so I get less complaints. I know a very different situation. But not long ago that was how the elderly were 'cared' for.

Your argument that the gardai get complaints because the public are just a bunch of moaning cranks, shows that you actually have contempt for your client base. Unless of course you dont consider the general public as a client base.

slurcher

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Nah, that was the duty of the judiciary. Who gave him COMMUNITY SERVICE. Which he didn't even do.

So with that argument when the public are unhappy with the outcome of a police investigation its alright to give the copper involved a good hiding?

slurcher

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

Regarding Rossport, believe nothing of what you hear and nothing of what you see. So much lying and rent-a-mobs have occured with that whole issue, it is impossible to believe any of it. Sorry if you are sincere, but there is no credibility with it so real complaints are stuck between lies and more lies. It is a shame that happens but c'est la vie!

I wanted to know for myself and I went and met people there, btw it was beautiful there, if you havent been its worth a visit. there were people there some elderly never had dealings with the police in their lives many disgusted by the behaviour of the gardai.

The Waltzing Consumer

slurcher wrote: »

I do get complaints, when a complaint is made I take it seriously and the client has the option of requesting someone else to care for them. My client base are the elderly, I dont automatically assume, silly ole feckers, what do they know. I try to listen and adjust so I get less complaints. I know a very different situation. But not long ago that was how the elderly were 'cared' for.

Your argument that the gardai get complaints because the public are just a bunch of moaning cranks, shows that you actually have contempt for your client base. Unless of course you dont consider the general public as a client base.

No I don't view the general public as a client base

Well man, I remember an elderly relative of mine accused her carers of stealing and all kinds of things all the time, the poor lady was just old and wanted attention but her complaints were nonsense of course.

slurcher

The Waltzing Consumer wrote: »

No I don't view the general public as a client base

Who are you serving then in your line of duty?

Well man, I remember an elderly relative of mine accused her carers of stealing and all kinds of things all the time, the poor lady was just old and wanted attention but her complaints were nonsense of course.

That happens and I dont know of any carer being caught for stealing, but there have been many cases of elder abuse but thankfully less and less. The point is any complaint should be taken seriously. Carers are now vetted there is much better training, more care home regulations etc.

MagicSean

slurcher wrote: »

No im not assuming 100% are true, but in criminal cases taken against joe public for assault do only 0.5% end up in a conviction - no. The police shouldnt be above the law and they clearly are. Do you beleive that 99.5 complaints made against the gardai are false?

But that is what your post said. If you want to reword it to what you meant go ahead. You are also assuming that all complaints are criminal. Most of them concern bad manners or neglect of duty.

slurcher wrote: »

The majority of gardai do a good job which I understand is difficult, but why is their word more beleivable than the rest of us, why do you automatically assume that 99.9% the public making complaints about the police are lying?

Their word is more important because that is the power vested in them. If it wasn't then there would be very little crime solved in this country. Think of traffic offences. How many people would pay fines if they knew that the Garda would not be believed in a one word against the other situation?

slurcher wrote: »

The public should be able to complain if they feel the actions of the police are unjustified or illegal and the complaints should be investigated by an independant body. The GSOC is not.

How? There are no members of the Gardaí on GSOC. I've seen them in action and they are neither friends nor enemies of the Gardaí. They just do their job.

slurcher

k_mac wrote: »

But that is what your post said. If you want to reword it to what you meant go ahead. You are also assuming that all complaints are criminal. Most of them concern bad manners or neglect of duty.

So in Rossport the gardai were just awfully rude!

Their word is more important because that is the power vested in them. If it wasn't then there would be very little crime solved in this country. Think of traffic offences. How many people would pay fines if they knew that the Garda would not be believed in a one word against the other situation?

There is usually evidence with traffic offences. If the public make a complaint it should still be addressed, not assumed that its bull**** because its just another crank. To automatically give them this power without any course of redress for the public means that this power can and is abused.

How? There are no members of the Gardaí on GSOC. I've seen them in action and they are neither friends nor enemies of the Gardaí. They just do their job.

The statistics dont show that unless 99.9% of the public are just lying when they make a complaint. The information on the exact nature of the complaints doesnt seem to be available. Are there figures on the nature of the complaints.

There are many cases in the UK with evidence showing police brutality and very little conviction. In the case of Ian Tomlinson it was legalised killing, even though it was a completely unprovoked attack.

what % of attacks against the police are left uninvestigated?

The police should not be above the law, what is your personal view when your colleagues behave in an abusive or aggressive way or are violent to the public. Do you deny ever seeing such behaviour and if you have do you always feel it was justified.

You have the information on what goes on, unlike Terence Wheelocks family who dont know what happened in that police cell.

Gerone71

slurcher wrote: »

Then it was the duty of the gardai to prosecute him and not beat him up.

Whoa, the Gardai have not been convicted of beating him up. For all we know the force paid the scumbag a visit and at worse gave him a verbal warning. When they left the scums mothers helped with self inflicting her sons with some wounds and wiping the blood on the walls. Then after rushing to the local spar to purchase a camera contacted their friend, the Ombudsman.

Undercover

Closed ranks, that's all there is to it. The po-lice in this country are never going to get done in court. This is as clear as day to anyone who actively follows the court pages in our national newspapers. No one should be above the law.

MagicSean

slurcher wrote: »

The statistics dont show that unless 99.9% of the public are just lying when they make a complaint. The information on the exact nature of the complaints doesnt seem to be available. Are there figures on the nature of the complaints.

Yes you can get the annual figures on the GSOC website under publications.

2009 figures

69% relate to discourtesy, neglect and abuse of authority (not including assault). 15% relate to physical assault.

74% of complaints relate to either an arrest, a search or a traffic stop.

33% were deemed to be inadmissable or vexatious

The figures aren't as complete as they could be but you may find them interesting. Personally, I would like to see figures on repeat complainants. To my knowledge noone has ever been charged with making a false complaint. It seems there is no penalty for falsely tarnishing a Gardas reputation.

slurcher wrote: »

There are many cases in the UK with evidence showing police brutality and very little conviction. In the case of Ian Tomlinson it was legalised killing, even though it was a completely unprovoked attack.

I'm not sure what relevance that has to GSOC and the Gardaí.

slurcher wrote: »

what % of attacks against the police are left uninvestigated?

More than you can imagine. I suppose it depends on how you classify an attack.

slurcher wrote: »

You have the information on what goes on, unlike Terence Wheelocks family who dont know what happened in that police cell.

I understood there had been a full investigation into that and it showed he hanged himself using the cord from his tracksuit. All the medical evidence seems to support it. I don't see the problem with the findings.

Nodin

Gerone71 wrote: »

Whoa, the Gardai have not been convicted of beating him up. For all we know the force paid the scumbag a visit and at worse gave him a verbal warning. .

You're not allowed force an entry to deliver a verbal warning....nor was there anything to deliver a verbal warning for, because if there was, they might at least have had an excuse to be at the door of the house.

Gerone71 wrote: »

When they left the scums mothers helped with self inflicting her sons with some wounds and wiping the blood on the walls. Then after rushing to the local spar to purchase a camera contacted their friend, the Ombudsman.

How did the Gardas blood get in the house? The miracle of osmosis?

If you joined just to troll this thread, I have to say you should have practiced in a few others first....

slurcher

k_mac wrote: »

Yes you can get the annual figures on the GSOC website under publications.

2009 figures

69% relate to discourtesy, neglect and abuse of authority (not including assault). 15% relate to physical assault.

74% of complaints relate to either an arrest, a search or a traffic stop.

33% were deemed to be inadmissable or vexatious

The figures aren't as complete as they could be but you may find them interesting. Personally, I would like to see figures on repeat complainants. To my knowledge noone has ever been charged with making a false complaint. It seems there is no penalty for falsely tarnishing a Gardas reputation.



I'm not sure what relevance that has to GSOC and the Gardaí.



More than you can imagine. I suppose it depends on how you classify an attack.



I understood there had been a full investigation into that and it showed he hanged himself using the cord from his tracksuit. All the medical evidence seems to support it. I don't see the problem with the findings.

Of the number of people charged with assaulting a garda, how many of them get off?

The relevance is police brutality and the police being above the law, I mentioned an irish garda getting off in an earlier post, im english so I revert back to stories I remember.

15% is a significant figure and remember that all off the Rossport complaints we deemed inadmissable despite footage of the assaults. They were not complaints about the gardai being awfully rude.

You argue that 99.9% of complaints are just rubbish. Yet this shows that valid complaints are not being investigated.

69% relate to discourtesy, neglect and abuse of authority
Try treating the public with the respect you beleive you deserve, you may get less complaints.

I live near Summerhill, everyone knows Terrence Wheelock was murdered, one garda even said to a lad in the area 'we will do to you what we did to Wheelock'.

almostnever

Degsy wrote: »

So what were the cops doing at her flat in the first place if the kid was completely innocent?

Police being there=GUILTY OF CRIME, yeah? :rolleyes: