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Abortion

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    #332
    netwhizkid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,558 ✭✭✭netwhizkid


    EF wrote: »
    Could the world survive with an ever increasing population? There could come a point where people would outstrip resources leading to a catastrophe

    The world could easily support anywhere upto 10 or 15 billion people if resources were managed properly and new more efficient technologies brought onstream. At the moment Europe and the "West" is seeing its population die as not alone is it not growing it is not even renewing itself. The only growth recorded is from inward migration and this brings its own challenges and sets of problems, if current Demographic trends continue Europeans will be minorities in their own continent due to unrestricted immigration and low birth rates.

    This will have disastrous results for our culture and way of life. Ancient Rome and most other major civilisations say their decline begin with low birth rates. High birth rates are the engine that powers an economy and keeps sustaining growth.

    Ireland has one of the highest birthrates in the EU and when I was in Germany recently I was shocked at how little Children I saw, in Ireland it is common to see the "yummy mummy" and SUV full of kids and women pushing prams and going about their business. In Germany it was an ocean of young professionals going about their business with Military subatomic precision and there seemed to be no families or no time for Children. This will lead to their downfall as we all begin as Children and like it or lump it we will all some day face the cold earth from whence forward we came. The lord said go forth and multiply and even the most anti religious should take this statement more seriously.


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    #333
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Forcing women to go through with unwanted pregnancies is not the way to solve a population crisis.


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    #334
    Uncle Arthur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭Uncle Arthur


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Thought experiment:

    Scientists come up with a way to undo the fusion process and separate a zygote back to the sperm and ovum it began as. Is this murder, given that they can refuse and become the exact same person again? If it is not, then does it not show that sperm and ova have more significance than you're attributing to them?

    thought experiment:
    would it be alright to murder someone if scientists had the ability to bring people back from the dead?


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    #335
    Uncle Arthur
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭Uncle Arthur


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Forcing women to go through with unwanted pregnancies is not the way to solve a population crisis.
    what about fathers should they not have equal say seing as they are equally responsible for the pregnancy??


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    #336
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Forcing women to go through with unwanted pregnancies is not the way to solve a population crisis.

    Forcing the unborn to die is not the way to deal with anything.


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    #337
    bronte
    Registered Users Posts: 11,331 ✭✭✭✭bronte


    Uncle Arthur wrote: »
    what about fathers should they not have equal say seing as they are equally responsible for the pregnancy??

    Certainly if they take half the responsibility for carrying the child.


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    #338
    Galvasean
    Registered Users Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    netwhizkid wrote: »

    Abortion is bad for society and has helped cause the decline in Western Europe's birthrate to the point where in less than 100 years the populations will have halved or even quartered because women are not facing upto the reality that everyone must bear at least 3 children if society and civilisation is to grow. Anything less than 2 children represents negative growth and this is leading to the pensions crisis facing Ireland and the west where there are less young productive workers coming onstream to pay taxes and the massive burden faced to the excequer by the greying of Europe. Abortion is contributing to this as millions never get to see the light of day.

    Abortion is responsible for the economic crisis? Uh huh...
    While you rave on about abortion being the cause for a decline in the young population in the western world, you totally miss the far more contributing factors of increased awareness of/access to contraception (condoms, the pill etc.) and simple family planning practices.


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    #339
    5318008!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭5318008!


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Contraception interferes with the act of sex, stopping the possibility of reproduction.
    Abortion interferes with pregnancy, stopping the possibility of reproduction.

    Why should there be an obligation on us to bring every fertilised ovum to the point of self consciousness as long as it is feasible to do so?

    Embryo in a lab. You run away, it dies.
    Sperm / Ova, before sex. You run away, they die.
    Fetus in womb. You run away, it lives.

    A developing fetus is already set on a path that will see through to birth without any need for human interferance (at which stage i hope you'd agree we should bring it to the point of it being able to look after itself).

    Personally, I don't think birth is the clear cut off point some people view it as (especially given somewhat recent medical advances).

    The fact that so many people who are pro-abortion are against late term abortions would lend to this.

    Personally, I think i've found a nice clear cut off point that works for me. You may dissagree and that's your opinion (maybe birth is the best of a bad bunch). I'd love to debate this out, but i really need to cram for exams and I could easily end up posting here till 4am, which would make me fail. See ya ;).


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    #340
    Censorsh!t
    Registered Users Posts: 1,121 ✭✭✭Censorsh!t


    I'm pro choice, but I wouldnt take any chances in getting pregnant in the first place! And if I did get pregnant, I'd make sure to carry out an abortion early.

    Besides, too many people in the world:p


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    #341
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,022 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    Would those in favour of preserving the life of the unborn child be of the opinion that a woman found travelling to England, for the purposes of having an abortion, should be treated as a criminal and prevented from travelling?


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    #342
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    EF: It's hard to enforce unless the British come to a mutual agreement with the Republic of Ireland not to allow Irish people to receive abortions in British hospitals.


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    #343
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Fetuses, fetuses get your deep fried fetuses here.
    You want sweet chili dip with that or not?


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    #344
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,022 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    Jakkass wrote: »
    EF: It's hard to enforce unless the British come to a mutual agreement with the Republic of Ireland not to allow Irish people to receive abortions in British hospitals.

    True so we are stuck with a situation where there are approximately 5,000 Irish women a year travelling to England to have the procedure carried out and to reflect this reality I think they should be allowed to access proper medical treatment and support in this country to reduce the possible adverse physical and mental affects of having an abortion.

    All we are doing by keeping abortion illegal here is we are forcing women to delay having an abortion, which they are going to have anyway and surely public policy should be to encourage early as opposed to later abortion..where the unborn child is going to be aborted anyway.


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    #345
    joanbrent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 28 ✭joanbrent


    Abortion is a highly personal decision that many women are sure they'll never have to think about until they're suddenly faced with an unexpected pregnancy.


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    #346
    ParkRunner
    Registered Users Posts: 3,022 ✭✭✭ParkRunner


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Fetuses, fetuses get your deep fried fetuses here.
    You want sweet chili dip with that or not?

    Not really apt for a moderator of the personal issues forum in fairness!


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    #347
    4zn76tysfajdxp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,944 ✭✭✭✭4zn76tysfajdxp


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Fetuses, fetuses get your deep fried fetuses here.
    You want sweet chili dip with that or not?

    Ew, Thaedydal, that's sick... I would've expected better from an established poster such as yourself.

    BBQ sauce please.


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    #348
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    EF wrote: »
    True so we are stuck with a situation where there are approximately 5,000 Irish women a year travelling to England to have the procedure carried out and to reflect this reality I think they should be allowed to access proper medical treatment and support in this country to reduce the possible adverse physical and mental affects of having an abortion.

    If you are talking about the after effects of abortion, that is fine. They should get support from trauma and other things. It doesn't mean that we should encourage abortion to be legalised here. I don't consider having an abortion to be "medical treatment", but mere barbarism.
    EF wrote: »
    All we are doing by keeping abortion illegal here is we are forcing women to delay having an abortion, which they are going to have anyway and surely public policy should be to encourage early as opposed to later abortion..where the unborn child is going to be aborted anyway.

    I don't see why we should legalise it at all. Our government has promised to support the rights of the unborn. We should be the most progressive country in Europe by respecting that the unborn has rights too and we need to consider them legally. As I say, I have no problem with encouraging adoptive services for mothers, but abortion is too far. Abortion should not be encouraged at all except in situations where fatality is likely to the mother.


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    #349
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    EF wrote: »
    Not really apt for a moderator of the personal issues forum in fairness!

    Encase you didn't notice this isn't personal issues or parenting, if you have an issue with my post report it.
    Peyton Thoughtless Armband wrote: »
    Ew, Thaedydal, that's sick... I would've expected better from an established poster such as yourself.

    No one who knows me would be shocked by that.
    Peyton Thoughtless Armband wrote: »
    BBQ sauce please.

    Unlike that, I mean really BBQ no way dude, seriously try hon sin instead.


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    #350
    orestes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,972 ✭✭✭orestes


    Looks like Thaed has killed this thread off early, and it never had a chance to develop to fruition, murderer


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    #351
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    /hides wire coat hanger and crochette hook behind her back and knocks over the cup of yarrow and raspberry leaf tea.


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    #352
    orestes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,972 ✭✭✭orestes


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    /hides wire coat hanger and crochette hook behind her back and knocks over the cup of yarrow and raspberry leaf tea.

    That's disgusting. I'm pro-life and believe all abortion practitioners should be killed


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    #353
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    /pushes orestes down a long flight of stairs...


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    #354
    orestes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,972 ✭✭✭orestes


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    /pushes orestes down a long flight of stairs...

    Am I not a bit old for you to be trying to murder me?


  • Options
    #355
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    orestes wrote: »
    Am I not a bit old for you to be trying to murder me?

    It's not you I am trying to get rid of, just our "baby".

    /pulls orestes along by the hair and dumps orestes in a bath tub of gin and inserts funnels in all the needed orifices and pours pints of gin in.


  • Options
    #356
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Meh. I guess it's when the pro-choice "arguments" go dry the spam begins :p


  • Options
    #357
    orestes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,972 ✭✭✭orestes


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    It's not you I am trying to get rid of, just our "baby".

    /pulls orestes along by the hair and dumps orestes in a bath tub of gin and inserts funnels in all the needed orifices and pours pints of gin in.

    I bet you even eat eggs, don't you? Soft-boiled so you can see the victim as you cut tut the top off and dip your bread in the poor aborted chicken-child


  • Options
    #358
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Meh. I guess it's when the pro-choice "arguments" go dry the spam begins :p

    Or when people get tired of the same pro life waffle when abortion was the only type of contraception for thousands of years even before christianity and the christian church wasn't bothered by until the last 100 years or so.


  • Options
    #359
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    netwhizkid wrote: »
    The world could easily support anywhere upto 10 or 15 billion people if resources were managed properly and new more efficient technologies brought onstream. At the moment Europe and the "West" is seeing its population die as not alone is it not growing it is not even renewing itself. The only growth recorded is from inward migration and this brings its own challenges and sets of problems, if current Demographic trends continue Europeans will be minorities in their own continent due to unrestricted immigration and low birth rates.

    This will have disastrous results for our culture and way of life. Ancient Rome and most other major civilisations say their decline begin with low birth rates. High birth rates are the engine that powers an economy and keeps sustaining growth.

    Ireland has one of the highest birthrates in the EU and when I was in Germany recently I was shocked at how little Children I saw, in Ireland it is common to see the "yummy mummy" and SUV full of kids and women pushing prams and going about their business. In Germany it was an ocean of young professionals going about their business with Military subatomic precision and there seemed to be no families or no time for Children. This will lead to their downfall as we all begin as Children and like it or lump it we will all some day face the cold earth from whence forward we came. The lord said go forth and multiply and even the most anti religious should take this statement more seriously.
    tl;dr - not enough white people; too many black people. Death of the white race etc.

    Be a man and start a new thread.


  • Options
    #360
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    orestes wrote: »
    I bet you even eat eggs, don't you? Soft-boiled so you can see the victim as you cut tut the top off and dip your bread in the poor aborted chicken-child

    /Doses orestes with black kosh and penny royal in laudnum and a pessary made of yarrow, quicklime and lemon.


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    #361
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    Or when people get tired of the same pro life waffle when abortion was the only type of contraception for thousands of years even before christianity and the christian church wasn't bothered by until the last 100 years or so.

    It's a rather convenient tactic that your primary contribution is to spam a thread that was going well in discussion, that's all I'm saying :)

    Most of the pro-life views were put across clearly I thought by the others who posted with me in the thread. The start of this thread was pretty good, and the result was far better than I would have ever expected on a poll like this. 37% is very encouraging.

    As for the "Christian Church", there are documents to suggest that abortion wasn't tolerated in the early Church (see the Didache chapter 2). The Bible gives clear passages that suggest that the child was crafted in the womb:

    "Thus says the Lord who made you, who formed you in the womb and will help you" (Isaiah 44:2)

    "The LORD called me before I was born, while I was in my mothers womb He named me." (Isaiah 49:1).

    However, I explained all my arguments in a secular and a rational manner. Pro-choice arguments simply do not make clear sense when they are assessed for their merit. The main fallacy is that the same objections people have to the foetus being life can be applied to any other human life outside the womb. I cannot possibly see this as right. It was a good discussion and I want to thank all who were involved :)


This discussion has been closed.
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