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Abortion

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    #692
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Malari wrote: »
    I just cannot agree with that. A woman's quality of life is far more important than the life of a foetus in my view.

    The burden of carrying a child vs Death.

    What is more permanent?


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    #693
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    Jakkass wrote: »
    The burden of carrying a child vs Death.

    What is more permanent?

    It's not that I don't understand what I'm saying! You won't change my mind. Absolutely in my opinion, the burden of carrying a child is worth killing it long before birth if the woman doesn't want to go through with a pregnancy. I could use more clinical terms but you would probably rephrase so why bother.


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    #694
    grenache
    Registered Users Posts: 6,477 ✭✭✭grenache


    I am a man. Thus, i have no useful input on the subject of abortion.


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    #695
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    My major problem up to now has been the amount of BS used to try to justify it or pretend it's something it's not. There is a definite scientific difference between a sperm and a zygote, the zygote is an independent being growing inside the mother and is just using her for nutrients. This is evidenced by the fact that women's immune systems are lowered during pregnancy so that they don't reject this foreign body inside them. Unfortunately as we found out this also makes them susceptible to swine flu. The foetus is not a part of their body, it is a separate life form growing inside them and deliberate efforts have to be made so the immune system doesn't attack it like it would all other foreign bodies.
    The sperm argument is basically why is it ok to kill a prerequisite to life but not a life, what makes the fact that it's a life so special?

    It's just to illustrate the arbitrariness of it all.
    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Also, it's not a just clump of cells like a toe nail. It's a living, growing human being. It is not the same as getting your appendix out, if it was then women would not show any remorse whatsoever over it. No one has ever committed suicide over guilt about having their appendix out.
    Well, personally I think that any post-abortion guilt/remorse is entirely the product of social conditioning, the same way people feel guilty or dirty after sex as the result of being brought up in a prudish, Catholic society.


    But good post.


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    #696
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    grenache wrote: »
    I am a man. Thus, i have no useful input on the subject of abortion.

    You know, I found this post very useful.


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    #697
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Malari wrote: »
    It's not that I don't understand what I'm saying! You won't change my mind. Absolutely in my opinion, the burden of carrying a child is worth killing it long before birth if the woman doesn't want to go through with a pregnancy. I could use more clinical terms but you would probably rephrase so why bother.

    That question was more for my own purpose than for anyone elses. I just cannot relate to that view at all from my POV, it seems horrific, cruel and selfish to me.


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    #698
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    Jakkass wrote: »
    That question was more for my own purpose than for anyone elses. I just cannot relate to that view at all from my POV, it seems horrific, cruel and selfish to me.

    I honestly don't mind if some people, who have nothing to do with my reproductive choices, think I am horrific, cruel and selfish. Seeking an abortion in the UK is not illegal.


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    #699
    grenache
    Registered Users Posts: 6,477 ✭✭✭grenache


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You know, I found this post very useful.
    Its tongue in cheek.


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    #700
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    The sperm argument is basically why is it ok to kill a prerequisite to life but not a life, what makes the fact that it's a life so special?

    It's just to illustrate the arbitrariness of it all.
    But then people respond with why is it ok to kill a foetus at 2 months but not 7 or even 12, after it comes out of the womb? As well as arbitrarily assigning value, people arbitrarily decide that when it's ok to stop someone else deciding. People scream about pro-choice up to, say, 3 months 6 days and 3.4 hours and anything after that is murder that should be stopped.
    JC 2K3 wrote: »
    Well, personally I think that any post-abortion guilt/remorse is entirely the product of social conditioning, the same way people feel guilty or dirty after sex as the result of being brought up in a prudish, Catholic society.

    But good post.

    Or the way people might feel guilty about wearing fur or fox hunting, which I'm sure most people here would think someone should feel guilty about. Everything we think is social conditioning in one way or another.


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    #701
    WeeBushy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭WeeBushy


    Malari wrote: »
    I just cannot agree with that. A woman's quality of life is far more important than the life of a foetus in my view.

    The way I see it is you knowingly get involved in an activity, fully aware of the risks that it entails so therefore you give up any right that you had in your "quality of life" or right to do what you want with your own body (I know you didn't say that, but others have mentioned it). You do something and know full well what a possible outcome could be and I think you can't then just disregard it because it doesn't suit. If you're not willing to take responsibility of the outcome of your actions, don't have sex in the first place.

    But as you've said there's no changing your mind, just giving my 2c as to why I think your view is flawed.


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    #702
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    WeeBushy wrote: »
    The way I see it is you knowingly get involved in an activity, fully aware of the risks that it entails so therefore you give up any right that you had in your "quality of life" or right to do what you want with your own body (I know you didn't say that, but others have mentioned it). You do something and know full well what a possible outcome could be and I think you can't then just disregard it because it doesn't suit. If you're not willing to take responsibility of the outcome of your actions, don't have sex in the first place.

    But as you've said there's no changing your mind, just giving my 2c as to why I think your view is flawed.

    I don't agree with these bits at all.
    Nobody gives up the right to do what they want with their body, no matter what. It is their body and they can do what they like with it IMO.

    I think your view of

    ''If you're not willing to take responsibility of the outcome of your actions, don't have sex in the first place''

    is a bit naive, that's just never gonna happen.


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    #703
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    WeeBushy wrote: »
    The way I see it is you knowingly get involved in an activity, fully aware of the risks that it entails so therefore you give up any right that you had in your "quality of life" or right to do what you want with your own body (I know you didn't say that, but others have mentioned it). You do something and know full well what a possible outcome could be and I think you can't then just disregard it because it doesn't suit. If you're not willing to take responsibility of the outcome of your actions, don't have sex in the first place.

    But as you've said there's no changing your mind, just giving my 2c as to why I think your view is flawed.

    Well, I think the problem with your reasoning is that your version of taking responsibility is having a baby. Mine is making sure that both of the people involved in a sexual act agree on what they will do if she becomes pregnant as a result.


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    #704
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Malari wrote: »
    I honestly don't mind if some people, who have nothing to do with my reproductive choices, think I am horrific, cruel and selfish. Seeking an abortion in the UK is not illegal.

    It depends what you think reproductive choices are. For me reproductive choices stop at contraception, i.e preventing pregnancy. Anything else is dealing with a human life, from that stage it is already there.

    As for seeking abortion in the UK not being illegal. I couldn't care if it is legal, what I do care about is whether or not it is right or wrong. For me if you are going to justify killing another person there better be a mighty good reason for doing so (the only justification I can see is a threat to the mothers life). The excuse of not wanting to carrying a child, is not a good enough reason.


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    #705
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    Jakkass wrote: »
    It depends what you think reproductive choices are. For me reproductive choices stop at contraception, i.e preventing pregnancy. Anything else is dealing with a human life, from that stage it is already there.

    As for seeking abortion in the UK not being illegal. I couldn't care if it is legal, what I do care about is whether or not it is right or wrong. For me if you are going to justify killing another person there better be a mighty good reason for doing so (the only justification I can see is a threat to the mothers life). The excuse of not wanting to carrying a child, is not a good enough reason.

    I guess it's lucky for women that not everyone thinks like you do.


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    #706
    WeeBushy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,572 ✭✭✭WeeBushy


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I don't agree with these bits at all.
    Nobody gives up the right to do what they want with their body, no matter what. It is their body and they can do what they like with it IMO.

    Well I think they do give up that right when they knowingly indulge in an activity that brings another life into play. So IMO they absolutely cannot do whatever they want with their body, because through their own consentual actions they made it no longer their own body. But you obviously disagree with that so I we would have to agree to disagree on this point.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    ''If you're not willing to take responsibility of the outcome of your actions, don't have sex in the first place''

    is a bit naive, that's just never gonna happen.

    Just because its an unlikely situation, doesn't make it the wrong one.
    I don't mean, "don't have sex until you want a child" but know what you are doing and the consequences. Now if you think abortion is OK then fine, ride like rabbits! But as I completely disagree with abortion I have to make a decision before hand if its a risk I'm willing to take.
    I don't see that as naive, just common sense really.


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    #707
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    WeeBushy wrote: »
    Well I think they do give up that right when they knowingly indulge in an activity that brings another life into play. So IMO they absolutely cannot do whatever they want with their body, because through their own consentual actions they made it no longer their own body. But you obviously disagree with that so I we would have to agree to disagree on this point.



    Just because its an unlikely situation, doesn't make it the wrong one.
    I don't mean, "don't have sex until you want a child" but know what you are doing and the consequences. Now if you think abortion is OK then fine, ride like rabbits! But as I completely disagree with abortion I have to make a decision before hand if its a risk I'm willing to take.
    I don't see that as naive, just common sense really.
    I agree with you when say just because it's unlikely doesn't mean its wrong.

    I just got the feeling from your post that you meant 'don't have sex until you want kids'.
    But you cleared that up nicely for me, nice post.

    As you say we will have to agree to disagree


This discussion has been closed.
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