Enda Kenny - Right man for Taoiseach?

Marshy

Sully wrote: »

Labour are doing a hell of a lot more talking pro and non negative about how they would sort the ****e out. They are also jumping on every single thing that is upsetting people and trying to support them, even when the people are wrong. Fine Gael aren't.

I can only go on what I've heard and its mostly been criticism of the government from FG, mainly without offering any practical alternatives.

Fine Gael are popular, not because they are the main opposition party and a lot of people dislike FF, but because overall people have been growing to like the party over the last few years. They have offered credible policy's. They have offered their solutions to how they would deal with the problems we face. If you read threads here alone, you will see more people being converted not because they dislike FF but because they like what FG have to offer. People have got so pissed off with the government (taking medial cards from the elderly, for example) in the last year that they looked for other party's to lead the government - thats shared out with FG and Labour.

Maybe the public do see some hope in FG's policys on some issues, although there's no way of knowing for sure the motives of people en masse for supporting them now, but the point still remains. Its most likely a case of opting for the least bad alternative. This is drifting off-topic again though.

Its very hard to beat down an extremely popular party with a very strong vote. The Bertie factory played a huge factor. I think FG done very well in the circumstances and were very close to clinching a victory. But the greens jumped into bed with FF to save the day and FG were left out in the cold. Giving them another few years to really build up their momentum and capitalise on their success.

Yeah, of course beating FF was no easy task but all the indicators in the weeks before the election pointed towards an FG-Labour government. That was until the Enda-Bertie debate when people began to really question Kenny's capabilities and thats what I believed sealed both he and FG's fate for the election. You may say this just comes down to appearances, but not really. Enda just needed to have some backbone in taking on Bertie, but this is what he lacks in my view and the public copped it.

I gave two examples. Everybody knows it, its been said here and on TV, that FG are actually producing policy's and documents on top of any knocking they do. FG have welcomed different initiatives by the government where Labour have knocked. I think you are getting mixed up with Labour - constantly knocking the government and never offering anything in return.

Again I can only go on what I've heard and I haven't heard them come up with anything I'd consider that special or original.

Your anti-FG and not Kenny so. Most people think the party is great but are hard pushed to vote because of Kenny. You seem to have a mental block when it comes to FG and even if they offered the world you would say they didn't. This topic is about Kenny and really has no room for people who dislike the party overall. Why don't you do what you ask others and leave the conversation if your not going to stick to the topic? You cant debate reasonably if you dislike the FG party so much. This topic is about Kenny damaging the party by not being a possible decent leader and shouldn't be used as people who hate the party to jump in and have a go.

What have I said that makes me anti-FG? I've just stated the facts as I see them eg. unproven front bench etc. I admit that I'm not fully convinced by them yet, largely because of Enda it must be said, but thats not to say I have something against them. I'm not like other voters who will just support them because FF are making a mess of things. I only talked about the rest of FG because you cited the point he'd an "excellent team" as a source of praise for Enda and I just questioned if we know they're that good.

Believe me, I want a discussion just on Enda but if people are going to stray off topic I will gladly challenge them on that as well.

From what I read on Boards, VBrown and others, its very much to do with the camera. He is acknowledged to have a strong bench and policy - which is why people want Kenny out and replaced with Bruton. Giving them confidence to vote FG because they have a decent leader along with a great bench.

I'd agree with that assessment for the most part. Its mostly about having someone credible in charge.

irish_bob

while i will vote fine gael at the next general election , im not at all convinced by enda kenny and see him as the one thing that is holding fine gael back from a landslide , yes a landslide , we are in unchartered water due to the unprecedented economic conditions we find ourselves in , life long fianna fail voters are deserting thier party and the door is wide open for fine gael to captialise

regarding the claims that enda kenny brought fine gael back from the brink in 2002 , i dont see it that way , 2002 was a case of fine gael getting caught in a perfect storm , the economy was booming under fianna fail so not only had they no chance of ever winning the election , they happend to loose every single battle with the pd,s and many independants on that fatefull wet may day , everything that could go wrong did go wrong , they lost every coin toss , it was a perfect storm and the end result for them was not in reality reflective of where they were in the publics mind , it wasnt like in the uk in 1997 where the country unleashed 18 years of built up hate against the torries , it was a freak and they were always going to come back big at the next election no matter what

while they have made some good announcements ( nothing special ) , the reality is fine gael are being rewarded now mainly for not being fianna fail and while they will undoubtably lead the next goverment , with such a golden opportunity available to them , its sad to think that the one thing stopping them from winning every single non public sector floater voters support is thier bland and uninspiring leader , some have said that you dont need a great leader in goverment , perhaps but you sure need one to get into goverment

CorkFenian

Sean_K wrote: »

The only way the job losses in construction could have been avoided is if the jobs didn't exist in the first place.

The industry went into overdrive and employed a lot more people than it typically would. This gave a lot of people jobs that wouldn't have them otherwise. Now that the industry has crashed, these excess jobs are disappearing.

Had the industry not gone into overdrive, these jobs would never had existed and our unemployment would have been a lot higher all through the last few years.

Fine Gal would not have been able to sustain the levels of employment in construction.

??????
Most pro FF post have seen here in a long time...To casitigate a party by saying that they wouldnt be able to do something.Which we will never know (as it is in the past and FF messed up) is just wrong IMO

Cork Boy

Marshy wrote: »

I definitely don't support the current government, but that doesn't take away from Enda's inadequacy for the job in my view. He has no credibility.


As a previous poster asked, what has Enda done in his 34 years as a TD? Failed to get FG into government for one and I truly believe he was the one largely responsible for that.

I'm sorry but WHAT???!!!!

Kenny is not responsible for FG not getting into government... do you know who is responsible?

1. The Irish people - we voted in (not me personally, i voted blue) a taoiseach in front of corruption tribunals who wrote blank cheques for CJH. (But sure isn't he a grand ou'l fella, salt of de earth he is).

2. The Greens - power hungry spineless muppets, worse than the PD's, at least Harney got Bertie to climb down on the Bertie Bowl (though not before the hoor bribed the GAA the night before a vote with about €87m for croker to keep out the oval ball).

And secondly, Kenny has no credibility???!!! He only bought FG back from the brink, has no connections. FG are only in pocket to farmers and compared to Sinn Fein (IRA), Labour (Unions & Civil Service), FF (Basically anyone who f*cked our economy), we could do a lot worse than have a taoiseach in debt to our farmers.

But you know what, FF will be booted out, FG will start to get the economy back to shape, and after 5 years FF will get back in with a "charismatic" leader and ride the economic wave set up by others till they f*ck it up and get booted out - ahhhhhhh, i've time travelled to the 80's!!!!

History always repeats itself and unfortunately we're just too damned stupid to learn from it.

Good night and thank you for listening to my rant

irish_bob

Cork Boy wrote: »

I'm sorry but WHAT???!!!!

Kenny is not responsible for FG not getting into government... do you know who is responsible?

1. The Irish people - we voted in (not me personally, i voted blue) a taoiseach in front of corruption tribunals who wrote blank cheques for CJH. (But sure isn't he a grand ou'l fella, salt of de earth he is).

2. The Greens - power hungry spineless muppets, worse than the PD's, at least Harney got Bertie to climb down on the Bertie Bowl (though not before the hoor bribed the GAA the night before a vote with about €87m for croker to keep out the oval ball).

And secondly, Kenny has no credibility???!!! He only bought FG back from the brink, has no connections. FG are only in pocket to farmers and compared to Sinn Fein (IRA), Labour (Unions & Civil Service), FF (Basically anyone who f*cked our economy), we could do a lot worse than have a taoiseach in debt to our farmers.

But you know what, FF will be booted out, FG will start to get the economy back to shape, and after 5 years FF will get back in with a "charismatic" leader and ride the economic wave set up by others till they f*ck it up and get booted out - ahhhhhhh, i've time travelled to the 80's!!!!

History always repeats itself and unfortunately we're just too damned stupid to learn from it.

Good night and thank you for listening to my rant

just as many farmers vote FF as FG

goldenbrown

new broom sweeps clean,

our international partners need to see a new departure

as much as we ourselves need to,

Marshy

Cork Boy wrote: »

Kenny is not responsible for FG not getting into government... do you know who is responsible?

1. The Irish people - we voted in (not me personally, i voted blue) a taoiseach in front of corruption tribunals who wrote blank cheques for CJH. (But sure isn't he a grand ou'l fella, salt of de earth he is).

Kenny couldn't convince the public he could lead the country better than Bertie, who you seem to hold in a very low regard. Surely that then means you accept it was a great failure by Enda not to get into government. You must accept that the electorate can only vote judging by whats presented to them and Kenny was seen as an inferior alternative to Bertie, which must be some indictment of Enda based on your views on Ahern.

2. The Greens - power hungry spineless muppets, worse than the PD's, at least Harney got Bertie to climb down on the Bertie Bowl (though not before the hoor bribed the GAA the night before a vote with about €87m for croker to keep out the oval ball).

I'm not going to get into an argument about the Greens, there seems to be countless threads in this forum condemning them as it is. But how are they in any way to blame for FG's failure to get into power in the last election? FG had no chance of forming government unless they got basically everyone but FF on board which just wouldn't happen.

And secondly, Kenny has no credibility???!!! He only bought FG back from the brink, has no connections.

We discussed that earlier, saying they were at the brink is a great exaggeration. They've always had a strong and consistent enough level of support and the demise of the PDs has helped them greatly. Although their downfall was probably a masterstroke of Enda's too.

allthedoyles

Kenny seems to have receded into the limelight.

Is he hiding something ?

He could be a great leader, but he needs to stamp his authority more on the situation

is_that_so

Marshy wrote: »

We discussed that earlier, saying they were at the brink is a great exaggeration. They've always had a strong and consistent enough level of support and the demise of the PDs has helped them greatly. Although their downfall was probably a masterstroke of Enda's too.

Much as you quite obviously dislike the man you might try and get some truth into your comments. Kenny became leader when Micheal Noonan resigned as leader on the night of the election in 2002. The PDs demise as you put it was not the reason for their recovery seeing as they only went from 8 down to 2. 2002 brought in 13 independents as well , 8 of whom disappeared in 2007. Most of the reasons for it were Noonan's ineptitude, the McCreevy bribery from 2000-2002 and that man Bertie. Noonan did not make any real case for FG and almost relied on the assumption that it was his given right to be Taoiseach.

By 2007 Kenny had revitalised morale, especially in Dublin where they had done so badly, reorganised the party and party structures and put them in a position where they could compete and, something you are in complete denial about, helped them get back 20 seats. From what you post you don't seem terribly enamoured of FG and that's fine. However couching that in a "I hate Kenny" stance is disingenuous and makes me seriously question what people really vote on. I think I'll stick to actual credible policies and the suitability of a party to being in government.

tfitzgerald

i dont think kenny has what it takes to be taoiseach i think hewould very quickly turn as bad as the crowd in at the moment the only one i would vote for is gilmour i think he could do ok .my father god rest him is spinning in hes grave we were all fianna fail supporters but now i would like to see them and that moron gormley taken out to the childrens hospital that they want to close and shot

meglome

Marshy wrote: »

I hate to have to repeat myself but the question isn't if Enda Kenny would be a better Taoiseach than we've just had. Its a question if he's the right man for the job, ie. the best candidate.

I'm openly saying he may not be the best man for the job. I'm saying I'd prefer Bruton. However I'm very willing to take Enda Kenny as he's got some integrity and honesty which will be a huge improvement over what we've, unfortunately, become used to.

Fianna Fail are doing exactly what they did in the last election, making people nervous of Kenny as Taoiseach so they won't vote Fine Gael. Compared to Bertie and Cowan I'd take Kenny in a heartbeat, end of.

irish_bob

meglome wrote: »

I'm openly saying he may not be the best man for the job. I'm saying I'd prefer Bruton. However I'm very willing to take Enda Kenny as he's got some integrity and honesty which will be a huge improvement over what we've, unfortunately, become used to.

Fianna Fail are doing exactly what they did in the last election, making people nervous of Kenny as Taoiseach so they won't vote Fine Gael. Compared to Bertie and Cowan I'd take Kenny in a heartbeat, end of.

id take kenny over cowen right now too , as someone said in another threar perhaps on another site , cowen reeks of rescession

Sully

Marshy wrote: »

I can only go on what I've heard and its mostly been criticism of the government from FG, mainly without offering any practical alternatives.

Then your either in the past or choosing not to listen. It is most certainly the opposite now and you will find most party spokespeople will knock the government and refer to THEIR own solution.

Maybe the public do see some hope in FG's policys on some issues, although there's no way of knowing for sure the motives of people en masse for supporting them now, but the point still remains. Its most likely a case of opting for the least bad alternative. This is drifting off-topic again though.

So you think that the plans announced from FG are all lies and ways of convincing the public to vote them in, where they will roll over and do the opposite?! Do you not realise the consequences that would case in the short term and long term?

Yeah, of course beating FF was no easy task but all the indicators in the weeks before the election pointed towards an FG-Labour government. That was until the Enda-Bertie debate when people began to really question Kenny's capabilities and thats what I believed sealed both he and FG's fate for the election. You may say this just comes down to appearances, but not really. Enda just needed to have some backbone in taking on Bertie, but this is what he lacks in my view and the public copped it.

Labour didnt do that well either remember, which is part of the reason why Gilmore is now leader and the party are not working as closely a pact. Opinion polls all suggested FF would do worse, but they didnt. People will always, on the day, change their mind. Not everyone, but a good size.

I dont think the TV debate did any favours for Kenny/FG, but I cant see it as the reason they never got elected. There are very few who can match Berties skill set, and Kenny is not good at that sort of thing. Maybe overtime he will improve, but I am willing to see past that for the good leader that he is.

Again I can only go on what I've heard and I haven't heard them come up with anything I'd consider that special or original.

See my first comment.

What have I said that makes me anti-FG? I've just stated the facts as I see them eg. unproven front bench etc. I admit that I'm not fully convinced by them yet, largely because of Enda it must be said, but thats not to say I have something against them. I'm not like other voters who will just support them because FF are making a mess of things. I only talked about the rest of FG because you cited the point he'd an "excellent team" as a source of praise for Enda and I just questioned if we know they're that good.

Believe me, I want a discussion just on Enda but if people are going to stray off topic I will gladly challenge them on that as well.

You clearly have a dislike for FG not because of the leader, but the party overall. Your in a conversation about the leader holding back the party and ideally it should be full of people willing to move to FG without Kenny. You wouldnt, either way, so your biased in your argument. Its flawed. Your against the party in everyway, so you should keep to topic about the party and not just the leader.

I'd agree with that assessment for the most part. Its mostly about having someone credible in charge.

Proves my first point and the above point. People see it, you dont. You dislike FG, so you wont see it.

irish_bob wrote: »

while i will vote fine gael at the next general election , im not at all convinced by enda kenny and see him as the one thing that is holding fine gael back from a landslide , yes a landslide , we are in unchartered water due to the unprecedented economic conditions we find ourselves in , life long fianna fail voters are deserting thier party and the door is wide open for fine gael to captialise

I think people are starting to realise that the local & european elections wont be that big of a wipeout. Opinion polls reflect current anger, but on the day like the last elections, people who originally turned their back on FF will come back and vote for them. No amount of power party will pull that together. Its a very strong core FF vote your trying to convince.

regarding the claims that enda kenny brought fine gael back from the brink in 2002 , i dont see it that way , 2002 was a case of fine gael getting caught in a perfect storm , the economy was booming under fianna fail so not only had they no chance of ever winning the election , they happend to loose every single battle with the pd,s and many independants on that fatefull wet may day , everything that could go wrong did go wrong , they lost every coin toss , it was a perfect storm and the end result for them was not in reality reflective of where they were in the publics mind , it wasnt like in the uk in 1997 where the country unleashed 18 years of built up hate against the torries , it was a freak and they were always going to come back big at the next election no matter what

Cant really make out what your saying here but I think my first reply to you might cover your point..

while they have made some good announcements ( nothing special ) , the reality is fine gael are being rewarded now mainly for not being fianna fail and while they will undoubtably lead the next goverment , with such a golden opportunity available to them , its sad to think that the one thing stopping them from winning every single non public sector floater voters support is thier bland and uninspiring leader , some have said that you dont need a great leader in goverment , perhaps but you sure need one to get into goverment

So FG are not FF. Either are.. SF or Labour. I cant see them getting a huge vote in the opinion polls? Seems to rubbish that argument.

Why are you voting FG anyway?

Marshy wrote: »

Kenny couldn't convince the public he could lead the country better than Bertie, who you seem to hold in a very low regard. Surely that then means you accept it was a great failure by Enda not to get into government. You must accept that the electorate can only vote judging by whats presented to them and Kenny was seen as an inferior alternative to Bertie, which must be some indictment of Enda based on your views on Ahern.

The leader of the party is not the president of the country like the states. His party will make the changes, the leader is there to ensure confidence in the public and keep the party strong and running with decent plans. Kenny has done pretty much all that but lacks the edge of being good on TV and a great talker/debator like Bertie. Thats the difference between the two and people need to see past that.

I'm not going to get into an argument about the Greens, there seems to be countless threads in this forum condemning them as it is. But how are they in any way to blame for FG's failure to get into power in the last election? FG had no chance of forming government unless they got basically everyone but FF on board which just wouldn't happen.

Agreed. Im not sure why people are saying its the Greens fault.

We discussed that earlier, saying they were at the brink is a great exaggeration. They've always had a strong and consistent enough level of support and the demise of the PDs has helped them greatly. Although their downfall was probably a masterstroke of Enda's too.

Hows that? (The masterstroke)

Marshy

is_that_so wrote: »

From what you post you don't seem terribly enamoured of FG and that's fine. However couching that in a "I hate Kenny" stance is disingenuous and makes me seriously question what people really vote on. I think I'll stick to actual credible policies and the suitability of a party to being in government.

I certainly don't hate Kenny, I'm just not convinced by him as I've made clear. Policies are critical of course, but strong leadership is also.

Sully wrote: »

So you think that the plans announced from FG are all lies and ways of convincing the public to vote them in, where they will roll over and do the opposite?! Do you not realise the consequences that would case in the short term and long term?

No my point is that a lot people will switch their vote to FG regardless of their policies because they see no other alternative.

You clearly have a dislike for FG not because of the leader, but the party overall. Your in a conversation about the leader holding back the party and ideally it should be full of people willing to move to FG without Kenny. You wouldnt, either way, so your biased in your argument. Its flawed. Your against the party in everyway, so you should keep to topic about the party and not just the leader.

The leader of the party is not the president of the country like the states. His party will make the changes, the leader is there to ensure confidence in the public and keep the party strong and running with decent plans. Kenny has done pretty much all that but lacks the edge of being good on TV and a great talker/debator like Bertie. Thats the difference between the two and people need to see past that.

No, I don't dislike FG as a party. The biggest issue with them for me is Kenny for sure, I've made that clear. People may disagree that I value leadership as that important but that's a separate argument.

Hows that? (The masterstroke)

I was being facetious. You were pointing out how Enda brought FG back together and that was merely to point out much of it was outside his control/luck.

meglome

Marshy wrote: »

I certainly don't hate Kenny, I'm just not convinced by him as I've made clear. Policies are critical of course, but strong leadership is also.

So presumably then you really don't support Cowan? Just so we're clear.

Marshy

meglome wrote: »

So presumably then you really don't support Cowan? Just so we're clear.

No, not at all. Seeing him at the golf early was typical. He'll probably claim the win as his own.

meglome

Marshy wrote: »

No, not at all. Seeing him at the golf early was typical. He'll probably claim the win as his own.

Well it seems we do have common ground. Although I didn't think Bertie was much better, just bad in different ways but I have a feeling we're not going to agree on that.