Weatherby Vanguard .223

tomo053

Hello everyone. I'm new to this site and too forums in general, i've read the rules so i've no excuses for breaking any. Also read a few topics and can see yous have a great deal of combined knowledge, so i decided to sign up because i've already learned more today than i have in my 4 years of gun ownership.
Anyway, I currently own a .22savage mk2 lr. It is my first gun and its used only for rabbits and the odd time when i've caught a crow sitting on the ground.
I also own a Browing Medalist 12gauage and recently bought a .22 Gamo CFX Air rifle.
Since i bought the gamo i haven't really been using the Savage because they bought do the same job out to 70yards. So i've been looking somthing for the foxes and a good friend (with very little experience to be honest) advised me to go with a .223 and my gun dealer said the same. He showed me a brandnew Vangaurd amoung others, it was on special offer with a Bushnell Banner scope and plastic case and sling for 950euro.
I really do like the look of the gun, although it feels abit heavy compared to the savage but thats to be expected i suppose. But is the vangaurd a good reliable gun.
Do you think that this would be a wise purchase or could i do better. Is the .223 a heavy recoiling gun, i have no problem handling my 12gauage's kick but if it was a rifle kicking like that i might have a problem with tight groupings, which will be a problem when i come to shoot at a live target (the last thing i want is to be skiming off the side of the fox or hitting it in the legs ect.)
Hopefully this is ok for my first post and thank you in advance for reading this, I'll look forward to reading your opinions.
Tom

jwshooter

223 is mild recoil but loud what? i said "loud".

if you dont what for some reason to use a moderator
and im not talking about sparks co .ear protection is a must most flinching is caused by noise more so than recoil.

weatherby never done it for me

ejg

The vangaurd is built by howa, very good rifle. Try to get the barrel screw cut straight away. You can add a moderator later.
Are you looking at a heavy barrel or a sporter barrel?

edi

jwshooter

buy a tikka factory threaded for 950 euro or so .

i was reading a arctical in the sporting rifle this month tim pilbeam was on about his RPA in 243 in cost him over 2400 pounds with a 24" barrel home loads he can shoot 1/2 inch at a 100.

my tikka is doing that with cheap federal,

i think we over look just how good the tikka are just for the sake of been different

Jonty

The vanguard has a 1.5MOA accuracy guarantee, so it should shoot less than 1.5 inches at 100 yds. Thats not a great guarantee. Any modern production rifle should be sub MOA.

You should seriously consider the Tikka.

ejg

Naaa, tikka has the same action for 223 as 30-06 (long action) am I right?
why would one want such a huge action on a 223?
The cz has possibly the nicest action for the 223.
Doesn't really matter that much though, I'd say just about all modern rifles are able to shoot under an inch if one tests a few different types of ammo. Bigger problem is most rifles come with badly fitted and often bad quality stocks which lead to inconsistent POI. Long term one is almost better off with walnut or laminated stocks compared to cheap injection moulded stocks as on many entry level rifles. At least one could bed them.

edi

jwshooter

action lenght is never a problem .group size is .

ejg

Group size?
had a cz 223 that shot consistently 6mm groups, and a howa that shot same with a best of 0.3mm 3 shot. Think the tikka is much better?
Other question, why would sako go to the trouble of producing different action lengths if the tikka route where better?
Tikka is just built to a price. Nice rifle but thats all.

edi

fish slapped

For me the CZ (surprise:rolleyes:) with the HS Precision stock, the Tikka stock seems a bit plasticy and lite.

Don't know much about the Weatherby Vanguards but a guarantee of a 1 1/2" group @ 100 meters with premium ammo is a bit of a joke!

FS

Jonty

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Story_C/Weatherby+Vanguard?packedargs=pagenum%3D2


Linky to accuracy claim. The test rifle produced a .5 inch group at 100yds

jwshooter

the factory test card shot just over 1/2 inch.
if you bought one and it was only shooting a inch and a half what good would it be to you.

i would not keep a gun that shot over a inch or close to it .

groups have to be touching or dam close to make up for poor shooting on my half .

we should have a on line competion the best 5 shot group at 100yds witnessed by some one .
and a 50 yds one for .22/.17s

Jonty

The 1.5 inch accuracy guarantee is based on a 3 shot group. Like jw said, if it shoots 1.4 inch groups with 3 rounds what use is it. also 5 shot groups should be used for grouping tests.

It wasn't me!

"Only accurate rifles are interesting."

Anything I own should do MOA at worst. 1/2 MOA is preferable.

tomo053

Hello everyone. I have to say its nice to see so many helpful responses, and so soon.
Money is a bit of a problem for me at the moment(shock and horror:rolleyes:) so the main reason i was looking at the vangaurd is because of the package deal:
http://www.weatherby.com/product/rifles/vanguard/synthetic_package
This morning i went to see if there was a Tikka in stock but seemingly he dosn't stock them, so i looked at a Savage hunter series and a Remington model seven, neither of which had a scope but both much more desireable than the vanguard looks wise but i just can't afford either of them espically considering the price of a decent scope on top of that.
If i do purchase i won't be able to afford a moderator for a while.
To be perfectly honest 950 is even a strecth, and i don't want secondhand, ( i know i'm 'cutting off my nose to spite my face ') because i was never really happy with my Medalist which was second hand. Its a good shooter but got a few marks here and there and lets just say i'm fussy.
I asked to see the factory target with the wetherby and he measured the grouping to below an inch but its wider than .75 and to be honest i'm happy enough with that as i don't plan on shooting past 150 mabey 200 yards.
I know i asked for all your advice and i seem to be going against it (sorry and please have patients with me) but i do value all your opinions more highly than that of the gundealer because, quite simply, ye arn't trying to sell me anything, only try'n to help out a misguided novice, but i havn't purchased yet and i'm try'n to keep my impulsive side at bay.
I suppose i may think about weather i'm prepared to wait for a few months so i can spend a bit more. Only 2 problems, any money i got coming to me in the next few months is already spent and if i wait, the money i've saved for this gun will probably get spent on other things (like food and electricty:rolleyes::D)

Ps. I presume POI means point of impact, but what dose MOA mean?

It wasn't me!

MOA is Minute of Angle, roughly equivalent to an inch at a hundred yards, so 2MOA would be a two inch group at a hundred, while a one inch group at two hundred would be 1/2 MOA.

I'd say the Savage is going to be the best shooter of the bunch, personally. Extraordinarily accurate rifles.

tomo053

Cheers for clearing that up for me mate.
Yeah my mk2lr. has served me well, only problems i had was it wouldn't eject spent cartridges from time to time. The hunter series is defo my favroit looking of the group, but i like the feel of the vanguard albeit a bit on the heavy side.
Edi, how would i know if it was a heavy barrel or a sporter and which would i be best off with.
Tom

kay 9

I think the reason it didn't eject the spent ammo is becuase the extractor lugs on the bolt are woren. they can be replaced easily enough tho.

tomo053

I figured it would be something fairly simple to fix, its only happened a few times recently but it has part of the reason I've been thinking about trading, that and, i just want something a bit bigger and new.
I was considering .223 because i thought ammo was relatively cheap but have only just read here that its only the FMJ's that are cheaper, but i thought that they were illegal anyway, plus there too dangerous for where i hunt.
Maybe i should think about a different caliber, i may do a bit of homework into a good economy caliber, or just try find a good second hand gun.
Thanks everyone for all the help and info
Tom

ejg

Tomo,
if you look into the gun rack at you gunshop you will see some rifles with longer and much thicker barrels. Somehwere around 0.7-0.85" at the muzzle (Varmint) and the thinner ones with around 0.65" muzzle diameter (sporter). If you only fire 3-4 shots at a time the sporter barrel will do and be much handier in the field. If you plan to pop 20 rabbits in a go the varmint barrel would soak up the heat better and keep accuracy a bit better.
In the meantime I prefer the lighter barreled rifles, getting older
By the way the caliber is great, barrel life is good meaning a second hand rifle is less likely to be shot out.
edi

Jonty

tomo053 wrote: »

I figured it would be something fairly simple to fix, its only happened a few times recently but it has part of the reason I've been thinking about trading, that and, i just want something a bit bigger and new.
I was considering .223 because i thought ammo was relatively cheap but have only just read here that its only the FMJ's that are cheaper, but i thought that they were illegal anyway, plus there too dangerous for where i hunt.
Maybe i should think about a different caliber, i may do a bit of homework into a good economy caliber, or just try find a good second hand gun.
Thanks everyone for all the help and info
Tom

FMJ's are not for hunting with

jwshooter

Jonty wrote: »

FMJ's are not for hunting with

+ 1 jonty ,whats cheap is not best take care to look after your qurriey

we owe a duty of care ,FMJ are not for live shooting

Jonty

Tomo,

American Eagle do a 50gr hollow point which is ideal for hunting its 13e a box as apposed to 11 for the fmjs.

fish slapped

yes there is cheap hunting ammo for the .223 :

Americian eagle 50gr hollow point
remmington 50gr hp
wolf 55gr hp
umc 45gr hp
all for less than €15 per box of 20

tomo053

jwshooter wrote: »

+ 1 jonty ,whats cheap is not best take care to look after your qurriey

we owe a duty of care ,FMJ are not for live shooting

I totally agree mate, i wouldn't even consider them (fmj's) an option, and up until yesterday i thought the were banned in this country.
Why are we allowed to buy them when they have no viable use, i mean, I've never seen a fox wearing body armour for cry'n out loud . Are they better for target shooting or something??

Thoses prices sound fairly reasonable actually, the guy in the shop told me a box of winchesters were E25 for a box.

I've made my mind up, I'm gona buy the weatherby. I have made this choice based on my budget and because i want new.
I'm hoping that the factory guarantee of 1 1/2inchs is the outside limit and that the majority of the rifles shoot within this.
I'll put a picture on here, when i get it , get used to it and get the sight zeroed, of a 5 shot test and i promise to be honest and have a good witness an all.
Tom

Jonty

best of luck Tomo,

FMJ's are best for practising with

jwshooter

have you priced the rifle any where tomo

tomo053

Yeah, he's asking 950 in eastcoast dog and gun

mightymouse311

Mate take a run down to john lambert in camolin much better to buy of he'll give you noting but sound advice. hes not the kind of guy that will just sell you any old gun just to get your money

thedragon

Theres so many gangsters in the firearms trade,it pays to shop
around.Dont go with the first price you get.Theres only a handful of real good dealers in Ireland.They complain then when we buy overseas and they make big issues with the DOJ.They want to see us stuck with them with no choice but to deal with them and be rode.Justice have them all copped,they have it f***ed up for themselves.

fish slapped

I would hate to call all dealers gangsters. Yes some are capable of taking the Pi** with their prices, but there are a lot more that are reputable and offer good value.

It does pay to shop around with that I would agree.

thedragon

I didnt say ALL dealers were gangsters.