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Libertas want work visas for Irish working in NI
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16-05-2009 1:59pm#1Libertas want to restrict Irish people working in an EU country to two years. They believe that Irish people living in border areas but working either side should not be allowed free access to these jobs but would have to apply for a blue card that only lasts two years.
http://www.todayfm.com/Shows/Weekdays/Matt-Cooper/listen.aspx (15/05/09 the 5pm show at about 4 minutes in
I believe this would have a terrible impact on border counties and would increase bureaucracy to a totally unsustainable level.
What libertas are proposing is an end to the free movement of labour around europe. The tens of thousands of Irish people working all over the EU would potentially not be allowed to work in these countries anymore. But to top this off Libertas believe that these Irish people should then be compensated by being allowed to claim the Irish dole while living abroad. Therefore, Irish people in Spain etc can claim our unemployment benefits while living over there.
Does this expose the Libertas agenda as nonsense? This is just one in a long line of bogus unworkable ideas being proposed by this collection of far right wing looneys and neo facists.
I'd be especially interested to know what do people in border counties feel about this proposal??0
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Libertas had the discipline of a focussed attack on the Lisbon text last year. On that occasion negative campaigning was the only game in town. However as SF have learnt one needs policies that people will vote for. Libertas are all over the place and clearly making it up as they go along. This raises questions about their existence as a political entity. The daily stream of commuters from the North highlight the potentially unexpected results of a poorly thought out plan, in much the same way as FF made a mess of the over 70 medical cards.0
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woa what a bunch of (bigger) clowns
every day something more stupid than the day before comes out about them0 -
I think Libertas will get a lot of votes out of this. They're getting my vote anyway.Steviemak wrote:Libertas want work visas for Irish working in NI
What do you mean by Irish working in NI? Most people working in NI are Irish.is_that_so wrote:the potentially unexpected results of a poorly thought out plan
The decision to open our labour market to millions of low-wage Eastern Europeans was itself a poorly thought out plan that is making the job of dealing with the recession much more difficult than it would otherwise be. Not only is it costing us tens of millions each week to support the east Europeans on the dole but the increased competition for jobs is making it much more difficult for people out of work to get back into employment.
Of all the incompetent and short-sighted decisions made by the Fianna Fail government during the boom years the decision to lift the work restrictions on the eastern Europeans would have to come very high on the list.is_that_so wrote:What libertas are proposing is an end to the free movement of labour around europe.
I don't think we can have free-movement of labour in Europe now that Europe includes the eastern European countries. Their wage levels are just too low compared with ours that the pull factors drawing them here are much greater than they would have been for the pre-enlargement EU members. It was alright back 5 or 6 six years ago when wage levels across the pre-enlargement EU were relatively equal. The incentive for people to move between countries was not as great then as it is now.0 -
The decision to open our labour market to millions of low-wage Eastern Europeans was itself a poorly thought out plan that is making the job of dealing with the recession much more difficult than it would otherwise be. Not only is it costing us tens of millions each week to support the east Europeans on the dole but the increased competition for jobs is making it much more difficult for people out of work to get back into employment.
Of all the incompetent and short-sighted decisions made by the Fianna Fail government during the boom years the decision to lift the work restrictions on the eastern Europeans would have to come very high on the list.
The point here is that NI, however much we argue over its political status is in another EU country. Competition for jobs is not a reason to vote for Libertas any more than voting for an anti-abortion party will stop abortions. I respect your choice but I suspect they too have misled you on what they can actually do and more importantly what they will do. That said by the looks of things there will be no Irish Libertas MEPs.
Much of this reminds me of a neighbour I had in Germany who disliked foreigners in general and regularly ranted to me about them. I suppose I should have been grateful to be an acceptable exception.
I am not sure where all of these votes are going to come from. Aside from Ganley the other two come across as being inept, crass and generally clueless. They will not get elected and Ganley will probably fall short as well.0 -
is_that_so wrote:Competition for jobs is not a reason to vote for Libertas any more than voting for an anti-abortion party will stop abortions. I respect your choice but I suspect they too have misled you on what they can actually do and more importantly what they will do.
I want to see a message sent to our political leaders that a continuation of current levels of immigration is unacceptable and that something needs to be done to reduce it. If Libertas are powerless to do anything about it they can still act as the mouthpiece through which that message is sent.is_that_so wrote:That said by the looks of things there will be no Irish Libertas MEPs.
I always suspected that if Libertas started doing badly in the polls that they would use immigration as the nuclear option to get the attention of the silent majority in this country. A large section of the Irish population are not happy about the current levels of immigration and about the problems that it is causing now that we're in a recession. Any party with the courage to represent the views of that constituency stands a very good chance of doing well on election day.is_that_so wrote:Much of this reminds me of a neighbour I had in Germany who disliked foreigners in general and regularly ranted to me about them. I suppose I should have been grateful to be an acceptable exception
Are you another one of these people who thinks anyone opposed to mass immigration is a xenophobe who dislikes foreigners?is_that_so wrote:I am not sure where all of these votes are going to come from.
I'm sure you've heard the phrase "army of the unemployed" before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_army_of_labouris_that_so wrote:Aside from Ganley the other two come across as being inept, crass and generally clueless.
And the Irish electorate have never in it's history voted in inept, crass or clueless politicians.0 -
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P. Breathnach wrote: »I have yet to encounter a xenophobe who doesn't dislike foreigners.
You need to get out more. There are plenty of us knocking around.0 -
This kind of argument is based on the assumption that Eastern Europeans can work for less because they send money home etc. But that is only a small, even tiny, part of it.
I have Polish neighbors renting in the house next door. From what I see there are between 4 and 6 people living in there. They have one car between the whole lot of them. They shop in Aldi. They dont go out on the town instead organizing parties next door to save money I assume.
The reason they can work for less is because they are willing to live a less luxurious type of lifestyle, not because of their nationality and the cost of living in their homeland. So maybe if the anti-immigration "silent majority" were willing to make similar cuts in their lifestyle they would be able to compete with the Eastern Europeans. Although that would require work - its easier just to kick out those that threaten you :rolleyes:
And as regards them getting the dole. They paid tax for so many years and rightfully earned PRSI credits by injecting money into OUR economy. The stereotype is that they work longer hours and make more money. Some of the boom was attributed to the influx of this labour.
Anyone who says that a Eastern Europeans dont deserve the benefits from the system they paid tax to is being racist. They are not judging on their work records instead on their nationality/race. That is what racism is.0 -
What do you mean by Irish working in NI? Most people working in NI are Irish.
Well according to Libertas these Irish people will need visas to work in Ireland. They referred themselves to the example of (Northern) Irish workers from Newry needing visas to work in Dundalk and vice versa!!
I get the impression you are not open to debate on any issue re Libertas which is disappointing considering their proposals do merit some serious debate.
O'Morris, you seem happy with the Libertas agenda - can you explain how the blue card system will work in border areas and what effect this will have on employment, trade etc?0 -
I want to see a message sent to our political leaders that a continuation of current levels of immigration is unacceptable and that something needs to be done to reduce it.
So this is the reason to vote in Libertas?? Why not vote for Immigration Control??
I think the you'll find that the level of immigration in this country has reduced to minuscule levels over the last few months. Immigrants come to successful prosperous countries and help growth continue. Countries with no immigration are countries that don't prosper. All successful western countries have immigration. All unsuccessful ones have emigration.0 -
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Steviemak can you check the link in your post seems broken0
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I want to see a message sent to our political leaders that a continuation of current levels of immigration is unacceptable and that something needs to be done to reduce it. If Libertas are powerless to do anything about it they can still act as the mouthpiece through which that message is sent.
So why vote for a mouthpiece that will be rendered voiceless by not getting elected?I always suspected that if Libertas started doing badly in the polls that they would use immigration as the nuclear option to get the attention of the silent majority in this country. A large section of the Irish population are not happy about the current levels of immigration and about the problems that it is causing now that we're in a recession. Any party with the courage to represent the views of that constituency stands a very good chance of doing well on election day.
Hmm, they were never doing well. The election/referendum gambit by Ganley was based on the assumption that Lisbon would be part of the EU elections. Neither he nor you, it appears understand politics and in particular EU elections. He wrongfully assumed that we would vote for the Libertas vision which up until a few weeks ago was nothing more than Lisbon bad, EU bad. Now they're on about jobs , leadership, old people, immigration and God knows what.
No, but one has to be careful how that opposition is voiced. But I do despise the mindless "Deys taking our jobs" cant.Are you another one of these people who thinks anyone opposed to mass immigration is a xenophobe who dislikes foreigners?I'm sure you've heard the phrase "army of the unemployed" before.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_army_of_labour
Yeah, but Ganley doesn't appeal to them at all. He's on the right eh lunatic fringe. Any self-respecting unemployed person is more likely to be swayed by good old fashioned left wing rhetoric, similar to what Labour are using at present. You also assume that this great army could be bothered to vote.
No, but they usually start out with a bit of nous. Neither of the pair seem to have an idea what they are on about. More importantly both are languishing, according to that poll, in very low single figures, so they really don't have a hope and we'll just have to elect other inept, crass or clueless politiciansAnd the Irish electorate have never in it's history voted in inept, crass or clueless politicians.0 -
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O'Morris I understand you want to limit immigration into Ireland and that part of the Libertas policy you are fine with.
But what about the benefits/taxation issue.
Libertas are suggesting that benefits be extended to irish citizens living/working abroad in other EU countries, the sheer cost of operating such a system so that it doesnt get abused by false claims is alone imense and the cost of such a system is going to be quite a dent in the irish economy (and all other EU states too)
But they didnt explain how will taxation will work? Will the home state tax the migrant workers or will they be taxed by the state they are working in?
If the state they are working in gets to tax them, then why in the name of all that is sane does the home state have to pay benefits? If it is the home state that will tax them, then again the sheer cost of insuring such a system will work will again be huge.
THe policy they are suggesting DOES NOT WORK!0 -
Were Libertas' proposal adopted, it could mean that other EU Governments could require Irish citizens living in their states to have Libertas' "Blue Cards". This would mean that an Irish citizen who loses their job could find themselves being denied dole where they live and, in effect, forced to return to Ireland.
Now maybe the electorate would be happy to see that apply to Irish citizens living in, let's say, Germany or Spain, but what about the UK? Do we want to see a situation where an Irish citizen born and breed in NI could be forced to move to the RoI should a future UK Government decide to introduce a Libertas-style "Blue Card" scheme in the UK?0 -
Guys debate all you want, as is evident by the fact this thread was started there are people like the O'Morris who cant see beyond their own noses and once they see a proposal like "less immigration and no dole for Easterners" they jump on it without even thinking about the realities.0
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Guys debate all you want, as is evident by the fact this thread was started there are people like the O'Morris who cant see beyond their own noses and once they see a proposal like "less immigration and no dole for Easterners" they jump on it without even thinking about the realities.
I confronted O'Morris on immigration issues before, i cant understand how can anyone excuse this latest Libertas stunt0 -
Steviemak wrote:I get the impression you are not open to debate on any issue re Libertas
I'm very open to debate on any of Libertas's policies.Steviemak wrote:which is disappointing considering their proposals do merit some serious debate.
I agree, I think they do merit serious debate. I think immigration policy in general merits serious debate. It's an issue that has been ignored by our politicians for far too long.Steviemak wrote:O'Morris, you seem happy with the Libertas agenda - can you explain how the blue card system will work in border areas and what effect this will have on employment, trade etc?
I hope it won't work in border areas. As a united Irelander I wouldn't be happy with any measure that would impede the free movement of people between the two parts of Ireland. As a unionist I don't want to see anything that would impede the free movement of people between Ireland and Britain either. If a blue card system is introduced in the EU I would hope that we could work out a separate arrangement with the British government that will allow us to continue with business as normal between the two jurisdictions.Steviemak wrote:I think the you'll find that the level of immigration in this country has reduced to minuscule levels over the last few months.
I have yet to see any evidence that this is the case. If you look at this you'll see that 29,690 PPS numbers have been issued to non-Irish people in the first four months of the year. If immigration continues at this rate for the rest of the year we could see well over 80,000 new PPS numbers being handed out. This is just far too high for a country with our size population. When you factor in the differences in population it would be equivalent to Britain taking in more than 890,000 people a year. Even though we're in the depth of a serious recession we're still on track to take in far more people than Britain has ever taken in during any one year.
We're nowhere close to minuscule levels of immigration in this country.is_that_so wrote:He wrongfully assumed that we would vote for the Libertas vision which up until a few weeks ago was nothing more than Lisbon bad, EU bad. Now they're on about jobs , leadership, old people, immigration and God knows what.
You're right, Libertas are desperate for power and they'll do whatever it takes to get their candidates elected. Now that it's obvious that their original strategy isn't working they're beginning to focus on issues that they know people are more concerned about. As Caroline Simmons mentioned on the Last Word interview, Immigration is high on the list of things that people are concerned about. I think there are a huge number of votes to be gained by standing and pointing out the problems that the elephant in room is causing us.is_that_so wrote:Yeah, but Ganley doesn't appeal to them at all. He's on the right eh lunatic fringe. Any self-respecting unemployed person
Self-respecting unemployed people? If unemployed people had any self-respect they wouldn't be unemployed.is_that_so wrote:You also assume that this great army could be bothered to vote.
They have plenty of time on their hands.BlitzKrieg wrote:But what about the benefits/taxation issue.
I don't agree with that part of their policy. I think each country should be responsible for the welfare of the people within its jurisdiction (with its own citizens treated as a higher priority than non-citizens) but I don't think they should be forced to support their citizens who are unemployed in other countries.
To help ease the welfare burden and to prevent the problem of welfare tourism I would prefer is we focused on making it more difficult for foreigners to get the dole in this country. I would like to see us increase the amount of time before which they are eligible for welfare. I think we should increase it from 2 years to 4 years.BlitzKrieg wrote:THe policy they are suggesting DOES NOT WORK!
The benefits part of the policy probably doesn't work. I think the blue card system is worth considering though. Continuing on with our current immmigration policy is just not an option as far as I'm concerned.View wrote:Now maybe the electorate would be happy to see that apply to Irish citizens living in, let's say, Germany or Spain, but what about the UK?
The free-movement of people between Ireland and Britain pre-dates the EU and so I would hope that we could work out a separate agreement with Britain to continue on with the current setup.0 -
I hope it won't work in border areas. As a united Irelander I wouldn't be happy with any measure that would impede the free movement of people between the two parts of Ireland. As a unionist I don't want to see anything that would impede the free movement of people between Ireland and Britain either. If a blue card system is introduced in the EU I would hope that we could work out a separate arrangement with the British government that will allow us to continue with business as normal between the two jurisdictions.
Ah. Selective xenophobia.Self-respecting unemployed people? If unemployed people had any self-respect they wouldn't be unemployed.
That is a particularly nasty sentiment.0 -
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So O'Morris wants a blue card scheme applied to people he doesn't want moving and not applied to places he might possibly want to work.
Completely hypocritical imo.0 -
If you look at this you'll see that 29,690 PPS numbers have been issued to non-Irish people in the first four months of the year. If immigration continues at this rate for the rest of the year we could see well over 80,000 new PPS numbers being handed out.
Do you have any idea of the numbers that have left?? Net migration is the issue here.
According to the PPS only 10K were for the new EU states (with 5K of that being Poland). A good chunk of this would be babies born to these residents - future workers who will drive this country forward. A young workforce is a huge asset to any country.0 -
If unemployed people had any self-respect they wouldn't be unemployed.
This, along with certain other attitudes from the Libertas camp (including among other things the concept of a Europe-wide party), makes me very, very worried for the future of the EU with Libertas anywhere near the reigns of power. I'd happily trust Brian Cowen to run the country then trust Declan Ganley with so much as a piece of paper, and I hate FF, FG, Labour and all the other parties.
I'm also very wary of the way Libertas rages about immigration when they know that it's not up to member states to control immigration. Ireland joined the EU to open its borders and encourage free trade. The Irish government cannot restrict that in any way, shape or form while in the EU. The logical conclusion is that
a) If in power, Libertas would cut Ireland's ties with the EU, and
b) Libertas is anti-EU, contrary to Ganley's proclamations about encouraging greater EU transparency.
Libertas's policies stink of the same sh!t that was last dug up in the 1930s. Xenophobia and mistruths.I would hope that we could work out a separate arrangement with the British government that will allow us to continue with business as normal between the two jurisdictions.
That's just illogical.0 -
Self-respecting unemployed people? If unemployed people had any self-respect they wouldn't be unemployed.
Wow. That's rich coming from someone whose attitude is one of 'them there foreigners coming over here stealing our jobs'. You haven't done yourself any favours with that comment.0 -
The benefits part of the policy probably doesn't work. I think the blue card system is worth considering though. Continuing on with our current immmigration policy is just not an option as far as I'm concerned.
Ok so you like every other sane person in the world does not agree with the libertas policy. If it was broken down to 3 elements
1. Restrict migration into Ireland from EU states
2. Restrict migration from Ireland to EU states (inc. UK)
3. Redesign welfare/tax
You agree with only 1 out of 3 so really I cannot fanthom how you can vote for a party advocating a policy
Personnally I have not seen any issue with immigration, but my field of work would not be an area that would get alot of contest from it, so I cannot really comment on the issue beyond my own numerous positive experinces teaching volunteers and students from states within the EU and outside it.0 -
Considering Britons represent the largest immigrant group in this country, I would have thought that restricting migration from the UK would have been top of your list of priorities, given your (apparent) concern for unemployed people (a concern which is distinctly lacking in certain comments).If a blue card system is introduced in the EU I would hope that we could work out a separate arrangement with the British government that will allow us to continue with business as normal between the two jurisdictions.
Still standing by the PPS numbers issued equals number of immigrants received, eh? So does that mean that 30,167 Irish people migrated to this country in the first four months of this year?If you look at this you'll see that 29,690 PPS numbers have been issued to non-Irish people in the first four months of the year. If immigration continues at this rate for the rest of the year we could see well over 80,000 new PPS numbers being handed out.
Well that’s convenient, isn’t it? We shouldn’t be terribly concerned about looking after non-Irish citizens living in Ireland, but them foreigners better be taking care of our lads abroad, because we ain’t doing it.I think each country should be responsible for the welfare of the people within its jurisdiction (with its own citizens treated as a higher priority than non-citizens) but I don't think they should be forced to support their citizens who are unemployed in other countries.0 -
Indeed.Libertas's policies stink of the same sh!t that was last dug up in the 1930s. Xenophobia and mistruths.
What next a register of all non Irish EU citizens living here including UK citizens?
Roundups and summary deportation of any that don't meet the grade?
The nazis would be proud of Libertas.0 -
Libertas was an interesting campaign on the EU debate. People voted against Lisbon partially based on the Libertas campaign, but they did not vote for Libertas as a party.
After the Lisbon campaign, Ganley legged it straight of to the Conservatives and Eurosceptics playing the big man, and over-playing his hand.
Turning Libertas into a party showed a lack of understanding on the part of Ganley as to how Irish electorate thinks.
Libertas won't catch on, and it's irrevant what they say. H emay have become a listened to voice on the issue of Lisbon, but I don't think he ever emerged as the type of individual we want representing us
FFS his real political links seem to be in Britain, not Ireland.0 -
Libertas was an interesting campaign on the EU debate. People voted against Lisbon partially based on the Libertas campaign, but they did not vote for Libertas as a party.
After the Lisbon campaign, Ganley legged it straight of to the Conservatives and Eurosceptics playing the big man, and over-playing his hand.
Turning Libertas into a party showed a lack of understanding on the part of Ganley as to how Irish electorate thinks.
Libertas won't catch on, and it's irrevant what they say. H emay have become a listened to voice on the issue of Lisbon, but I don't think he ever emerged as the type of individual we want representing us
FFS his real political links seem to be in Britain, not Ireland.
The funny thing is, though, that as far as I can make out, standing in the euro elections was the plan all along...call it a 'massive power grab' if you like, since if Libertas were successful they would essentially deliver the European Parliament into Declan Ganley's hands. I can't bring myself to see Libertas' opposition to Lisbon as 'conviction politics' at this stage.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
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The free-movement of people between Ireland and Britain pre-dates the EU
Yes, because all Irish citizens born before 1948 (when the RoI was declared) were automatically British Commonwealth citizens with the right to live in the UK if they so choose. Indeed, if I recall rightly, even today they still qualify for full British citizenship if they want it.
As such, had the UK tightened up its rules in, let say, the mid-1960's it would at best have ended up banning Irish kids from living there. Since most of these would have been in school here anyway, it would have been a bit pointless as both countries were headed for EU membership (with freedom of movement) at that stage, wouldn't it?and so I would hope that we could work out a separate agreement with Britain to continue on with the current setup.
You'd "hope we could work out a separate agreement"?
Unfortunately for you there is no guarentee that the British Government would even want to consider a separate agreement with Ireland. Unlike in the pre-EU days, very few of us today would qualify as British Commonwealth citizens (or full British citizens), as such there is no reason whatsoever for a British Government to give Ireland preferential treatment.
Indeed, they could save money by introducing Libertas' "Blue Card" and then denying Irish citizens dole payments should they become unemployed etc. The savings for the British tax-payer in NI alone could run to tens or hundred of millions a year.0
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