The Martin O'Neill debate

Mr Alan

I had an Ashley Cole moment the other day - almost turning my car into a tree after hearing words that made my eyes pop. It wasn't my boss insulting me with a £55,000-a-week wage offer (I've already chinned him for that) but something even more incredible. A debate on national radio about whether Hull City should sack manager Phil Brown.

Now let me say that Phil (Brown by name, Brown by permatan) endears himself to me about as much as Government Minister Hazel Blears.

He looks as though he spends most match-day mornings working out if that hi-tech microphone round his gob clashes with his latest River Island shirt-tie-and-suit combo.

And I was chuffed that his laughable PR stunt, when he gave his team an on-pitch halftime rollicking at Manchester City because they were having a nightmare, backfired horrendously (he's taken only seven points since that Boxing Day defeat).

But how can someone who took Hull City, that's Hull City, into the Premier League, and kept them out of the relegation places until May, be considered a failure? Is it because he over-shot expectations early in the season and has done nothing to halt an embarrassing freefall since? If so, why is nobody savaging Aston Villa boss Martin O'Neill. Come to think of it, why does O'Neill always escape criticism? How come at 57, he's won no more in English football than a League Cup, yet is universally hailed as a deepthinking genius, one of the greatest managers of his generation, and the natural successor to Alex Ferguson? In January when Villa were clear of Chelsea in third place, O'Neill was talking about the possibility of being title contenders, drawing parallels with his Nottingham

Forest side of 1978. They were then seven points ahead of Arsenal. Now despite Arsenal's implosion, they are 10 points behind them.

Arsene Wenger, Rafa Benitez, Phil Scolari, Harry Redknapp, Joe Kinnear, Mark Hughes, Gareth Southgate, Gary Megson - even Alan Shearer - have all taken kickings this season for bad spells.

But O'Neill, who has won only one Premier League game since February 2 (a nervous 1-0 home win against Hull) has once again slipped under the radar.

It's not as though he's just taken over the reins like Shearer, and been saddled with a shower of donkeys.

This is his third full season at Villa Park. Last summer he spent £35million on seven players and in January bought England striker Emile Heskey.

There's been criticism from Villa fans who say he's unimaginative in the transfer market, picks key players out of position, and plays a long-ball counter-attacking game with no Plan B, which has worked well at away grounds but been tediously predictable at home.

The same fans who weren't happy at O'Neill throwing in the towel in Europe, and who must have been dismayed at his comments this week about playing in next year's Europa Cup. "There are too many games," he whined, polishing the stick of his white flag six months in advance. Where does that attitude leave him, negotiation-wise, when Gareth Barry (and possibly Ashley Young) tell him in a few weeks that there's no substitute for playing in the Champions League? More to the point where does it leave his season's work in relation to Phil Brown's? Both over-achieved early on, then ended up more or less where they were expected to.

But surely O'Neill's failure to exploit Arsene Wenger's worst season as an Arsenal manager has been a bigger failure, considering the size of Villa.

Had they won a Champions League place Barry would have stayed and other topclass players may have joined.

Instead he will leave and Arsenal, Manchester City, Spurs and Everton will get stronger. Meaning O'Neill's failure to prevent a freefall could harm Villa's progress dramatically at a crucial point in history.

Still, Villa fans can rest assured of one thing. Their manager will escape serious criticism. Well, he looks and sounds the part on the telly doesn't he? If only he had that tragic Phil Brown microphone and permatan, things might be different.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby/2009/05/16/how-does-o-neill-always-slip-under-the-radar-when-brown-stuff-hits-the-115875-21363262/

Now personally i don't think he should be sacked, but its quite a mystery how he seems to escape ridicule or the press dragging his name through the mud like other managers do. But his record since Christmas really is embarrasing, especially for a club which has Champions League ambitions. His name is always linked with big jobs & i specifically remember Villa fans bragging about how much better he was than some of the managers viewed as the best around both last season & this :rolleyes:

Has he found his level? qualifying for the Europa Cup or whatever its called? is this the end of the MON "myth"?

How long do people think he'll last at Villa?

Helix

yeh hes found his level, he's not a good enough manager for anything more than the 5-8th place range

his tactics are awful, his team selections are bizarre (milner at right back today), and his transfers are unimaginative

he's definitely taken us as far as he can unless he completely changes his approach after this season. he'll get next season, and rightly so, but with a resurgent spurs and city out to splash the cash a top 7 finish isnt nailed on by a long shot and unless he can win a trophy he wont survive that

if he walked in the summer i think youd be surprised with the amount of villa fans who wouldnt be particularly heartbroken. nobody wants him sacked tho, give the bloke another season

everdead.ie

To be honest I think that the intertoto cup which got them into europe killed off there challange he has used very few players all season in the league and most of them are playing and have played so many they look very tired now IMO.

CHD

So because his team didn't break the top 4 he's compared to Phil Brown. He's hardly managed top class teams, what do they expect. He is doing a good job at Villa and is a top manager.

Bounty Hunter

I reckon he will be at Villa another 2/3 years but next season is his big one, the one where we have to replace our captain and vice captain aswell as continue to try and make his side progress whith added competition around him in the form of Man City aswell as a more competent Spurs and Everton as always chasing the big 4

Helix

everdead.ie wrote: »

To be honest I think that the intertoto cup which got them into europe killed off there challange he has used very few players all season in the league and most of them are playing and have played so many they look very tired now IMO.

nah, the fact that he only bought emile heskey in january is what killed us off

not so much the purchase of him, but his insistence on completely changing the system and playing players out of position to accommodate the useless lump

fulham and liverpool have used the same amount of players as us btw

Headshot

idk what he was thinking of buying Heskey,it be up there with the worse buys of the season imo

Esse85

Id say next season will be his last.

Bounty Hunter

buying Heskey made sense but as Helix says changing a winning formula to accomodate him and not getting any more reinforcements in seems to have been a mistake

Mr Alan

CHD wrote: »

So because his team didn't break the top 4 he's compared to Phil Brown. He's hardly managed top class teams, what do they expect. He is doing a good job at Villa and is a top manager.

perhaps you should re-read the article.

Helix

CHD wrote: »

He is doing a good job at Villa and is a top manager.

thats a myth

martin o'neill isnt anything resembling a top manager

he plays long ball football, is tactically clueless and poor in the transfer market

they are NOT the hallmarks of a top class manager

if he got one of the jobs at a top 4 team he'd be sacked within a year, mark my words

Helix

Esse85 wrote: »

Id say next season will be his last.

aye same here, he wont be sacked tho he'll walk

Boggles

Helix wrote: »

yeh hes found his level,

He still has a chance of getting Villa 5th, their highest finish since 96/97?

Helix

Boggles wrote: »

He still has a chance of getting Villa 5th, their highest finish since 96/97?

having spent the second most in europe in the summer, in one of the poorest premiership seasons i can remember

Mr Alan

Boggles, he's had all the money he wants though since he has been there-anything he wants he gets, according to those in charge at the club.

the control he has & the respect he has from the owner is unrivalled in the PL imo-the perfect enviroment for success which he isnt really bringing.

Guy:Incognito

I never rated him and have said so many times on this forum.

For all the supposed genius and supposed managerial brilliance, Villa are not hugely better off league wise than under Dave O'Leary (which, given the amount of abuse he get, MON should'nt have himself in a position to be compared).

The squad size is brought up time and again, but at the end of the day, there is money there for him. If he doesnt have enough players, it's his own doing.

Boggles wrote: »

He still has a chance of getting Villa 5th, their highest finish since 96/97?

But for a hudely underachieving Spurs first half to the season, I'd imagine he'd be looking at a 7th place. City are under achieving too and can only improve (you would think) .

Without imprvement, Villa could easily find themselves near mid table next year and thats without one of he mid table teams having a big season.

blinding

Martin Laursen has been a big loss to Villa since his injury and he was exceptionally good to get goals from set pieces.

Best of luck to Marttin Laursen after having to retire through persistent injuries.

Martin O' Neill is certainly an interesting question as to whether he can manage at a higher level or not.
Villa will need to buy a few players next season and it will be interesting to see how Martin does in the transfer market.

A manager of a top club needs to be able to buy good players as he will often be judged on how these players perform.
Martin O' Neill has never really been given big money so he is untested in this side of management.

Bounty Hunter

tbh this article sounds like the perfectly written version of what Helix has been saying for a while, not that i 100% agree with him i.e i dont think O'Neil has found his level just yet and dont think next season will be his last but it makes many valid points.

Helix

Stekelly wrote: »

The squad size is brought up time and again, but at the end of the day, there is money there for him. If he doesnt have enough players, it's his own doing.

spot on

hes had 3 years and as much cash as he wants to fix the squad problem, yet its the first thing he whinges about

Helix

blinding wrote: »

Martin O' Neill has never really been given big money so he is untested in this side of management.

he was the second highest spending manager in europe last year and did very little to show he knows how to use big money

Boggles

Mr Alan wrote: »

Boggles, he's had all the money he wants though since he has been there-anything he wants he gets, accoring to those in charge at the clubs .

They could have 100 billion.

Aston Villa FC is just not attractive to the top players I'm afriad, you can't blame O'Neill for that.

Mr Alan

blinding wrote: »

Martin O' Neill has never really been given big money so he is untested in this side of management.

he has had a blank cheque since he has been at Villa.

Headshot

blinding wrote: »

Martin Laursen has been a big loss to Villa since his injury and he was exceptionally good to get goals from set pieces.

Best of luck to Marttin Laursen after having to retire through persistent injuries.

Martin O' Neill is certainly an interesting question as to whether he can manage at a higher level or not.
Villa will need to buy a few players next season and it will be interesting to see how Martin does in the transfer market.

A manager of a top club needs to be able to buy good players as he will often be judged on how these players perform.
Martin O' Neill has never really been given big money so he is untested in this side of management.

Bouma has been a big loss too

invincibleirish

This summer is make or break time for him. If he can effectively replace Laursen and take advantage of the gap in midfield with Barrys exit then i think Villa could be far more successful next season.

If he has a disappointing summer and results continue to disappoint in the new season he'll be gone by Xmas.

Helix

Boggles wrote: »

Aston Villa FC is just not attractive to the top players I'm afriad, you can't blame O'Neill for that.

nobodys suggesting we go out and buy ronaldo, torres and aguero or anything

more that we sign something a little more impressive than zat knight and emile heskey, and especially that we dont sign decent players like reo-coker and then either play him out of position or refuse to play him at all

Mr Alan

take advantage of the gap in midfield with Barrys exit

how do you "take advantage" of one of your best players leaving for not a lotta dough?!

Helix

Mr Alan wrote: »

how do you "take advantage" of one of your best players leaving?!

coz we play with 2 defensive midfielders due to mon being unwilling to drop either

barry leaving means we have to buy a new player to go in there, and if the manager has any sense at all itll be someone to compliment petrov, not a similar player like barry is

Boggles

Helix wrote: »

nobodys suggesting we go out and buy ronaldo, torres and aguero or anything

Suggest then who he should buy, blank cheque and all that will be happy enough not to have CL football, not be a mercenary and would Shun London for the bright lights of Villa?

invincibleirish

Boggles wrote: »

They could have 100 billion.

Aston Villa FC is just not attractive to the top players I'm afriad, you can't blame O'Neill for that.

Villa don't have a problem attracting players, certainly no more then an Everton or a Spurs for example, but MONs signings in particular have continued to disappoint. Carew & Young are his two outstanding signings imo, both were signed 2.5 years ago.

Esse85

He'd do a great job at Portsmouth, Middlesbrough, Newcastle in that he'd bring stability to the club by consequetively finishing mid table with them

He's not at the level, or ever will be i feel to break into the top 4. SPL and midtable finishes are as good as it gets with him.

Bounty Hunter

Mr Alan wrote: »

how do you "take advantage" of one of your best players leaving for not a lotta dough?!

well Villa lack a real playmaker/AM at the moment someone to get forawrd and support the forwards and be able to unlock the defense from the center not from out wide. Barry especially as a left footer will be a great loss but imagine Villa with a Riquelme type of Midfielder while Petrov or NRC lie deep, i think thats what he means. Steven Defour from standard Liege is one ive seen linked to fill that void.

Boggles

invincibleirish wrote: »

Villa don't have a problem attracting players, certainly no more then an Everton or a Spurs for example, but MONs signings in particular have continued to disappoint. Carew & Young are his two outstanding signings imo, both were signed 2.5 years ago.

Get out the gate, A player is going to choose London 99/100 instead of Villa.

Eg Bentley.

Esse85

Didnt Robinho sign for city.

Tevez and Mascherano to West Ham.

Anelka to Bolton.

Its possible.

Helix

Boggles wrote: »

Suggest then who he should buy, blank cheque and all that will be happy enough not to have CL football, not be a mercenary and would Shun London for the bright lights of Villa?

stop thinking of us like united, we're not united. we cant buy the same type of players and we know it

look at everton for example, theyve managed to sign arteta and cahill. one of the best pairings in the league.

you have to be smart with who you bring in when youre not a superclub. carew is a top class player, scoring in 15 league games this season proves that. ash young has potential to be a top top top player

over the years we've had some great defenders, mellberg alpay (who was a lunatic unfortunately) and laursen for starters. all signed from clubs who either werent in europe, or where they couldnt get a game

rubbish like zat knight, mohammed salifou, wayne routledge and (so far) shorey and sidwell are not the answer

Mr.Nice Guy

That article is a load of rubbish.

If so, why is nobody savaging Aston Villa boss Martin O'Neill. Come to think of it, why does O'Neill always escape criticism.

Hmm maybe because when he took over from David O'Leary, Villa were 16th in the league whereas this season they have reached the point where they are competing for a Champions League place? It's called progress.

I also love how the guy mentions what O'Neill has done in English football, conveniently omitting the tremendous work he did with Celtic where he helped them to numerous titles and took them to a UEFA Cup Final, beating some great sides along the way. But hey, let's forget all that because it wasn't while he was in English football.

Martin O'Neill is a fantastic manager.

Boggles

Esse85 wrote: »

Didnt Robinho sign for city.

Come off it with this one?

Esse85 wrote: »

Tevez and Mascherano to West Ham.

Shop Window

Esse85 wrote: »

Anelka to Bolton.

Its possible.

Name one club Anelka hasn't been at?

blinding

Helix wrote: »

he was the second highest spending manager in europe last year and did very little to show he knows how to use big money

I hear what your saying and have no reason to doubt you.

The only relatively big buy that has looked pretty good is Ashley Young(some of the time anyway)
It would be good to see a list of his buys and the cost so that we could make a more player by player judgement.

I think in this day and age it is nearly as important to see what the player is going to be paid over the contract and if there was a signing on fee.

For one of the top clubs to sign a 20 million pound player it may cost another 20 million to pay him over 4 years.

I think its funny when sometimes you hear some clubs have a 40/50 million transfer kitty.

That is in fact only one top class player for 4/5 years.

Boggles

Helix wrote: »

stop thinking of us like united, we're not united. we cant buy the same type of players and we know it

look at everton for example, theyve managed to sign arteta and cahill. one of the best pairings in the league.

you have to be smart with who you bring in when youre not a superclub. carew is a top class player, scoring in 15 league games this season proves that. ash young has potential to be a top top top player

over the years we've had some great defenders, mellberg alpay (who was a lunatic unfortunately) and laursen for starters. all signed from clubs who either werent in europe, or where they couldnt get a game

rubbish like zat knight, mohammed salifou, wayne routledge and (so far) shorey and sidwell are not the answer

I know your not United, my question was very simple who would YOU realistically sign?

invincibleirish

Boggles wrote: »

Get out the gate, A player is going to choose London 99/100 instead of Villa.

Eg Bentley.

MON offered below 10m, Spurs offered 17m for Bentley he never had a choice.

Helix

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Martin O'Neill is a fantastic manager.

tell us why?

is it his tactics? or his use of players in the wrong positions? or his insistence on forcing his favourites into the team regardless of what it does to formations? or is it constantly playing out of form players no matter how bad they get? or is it his sparkling transfer record?

yes he took villa from 16th to 11th to 6th and 5th/6th this season

but he spent a LOT of money doing it, and the villa team that finished 16th on dols last season werent as bad as the finish suggested. that team finished there because in the final third of the season the manager lost the dressing room, the chairman was scheming to get him out of the club, and the fans turned on him

and you know the funny thing? the run at the end of that season wasnt as bad as the run at the end of this season

mon has done NOTHING at villa that any half decent coach wouldnt have done... apart from maybe going the best part of 3 years without a right back playing at right back

Guy:Incognito

Boggles wrote: »

Get out the gate, A player is going to choose London 99/100 instead of Villa.

Eg Bentley.

How is he in any worse position than David Moyes? Plus he has much much more money.

Manchester (city) is hardly the most attractive of cities.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

That article is a load of rubbish.





Hmm maybe because when he took over from David O'Leary, Villa were 16th in the league whereas this season they have reached the point where they are competing for a Champions League place? It's called progress.
.

If thats the case then Hull competed for a CL place. They were out of it weeks ago and even that was with Arsenal having a poxy season.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I also love how the guy mentions what O'Neill has done in English football, conveniently omitting the tremendous work he did with Celtic where he helped them to numerous titles .

Ah now here. Anyone who doesnt deliver titles to Celtic may retire from football. It's a 2 horse race .

I think Des is ready for a stint there at this stage.

Boggles

invincibleirish wrote: »

MON offered below 10m, Spurs offered 17m for Bentley he never had a choice.

He offered 15 million according to reports. Bentley wanted back to London, he got his move.

Boggles

Stekelly wrote: »

How is he in any worse position than David Moyes? Plus he has much much more money.

Moyes is an exceptional manager.

Helix

Boggles wrote: »

I know your not United, my question was very simple who would YOU realistically sign?

a list of possible players, not a list of must haves, but ones that would improve what martin keeps reminding us is a terribly small squad

michael turner (hull)
brede hangeland (fulham)
david wheater (middlesbrough)
kevin doyle (reading)
obafemi martins (newcastle)
paul robinson (west brom)
stephen dafour (standard)
vangner love (cska)

not a single one of them is beyond our means or reputation

invincibleirish

Boggles wrote: »

He offered 15 million according to reports. Bentley wanted back to London, he got his move.

I believe the reports i read more then yours tbh.

And the london effect you're describing is all well and good but i think you over estimate its importance, West Ham & Spurs were in for london born n' bred Ashley Young yet he came to Villa.

Esse85

Santa Cruz to Blackburn

Van Der Sar to Fulham

Owen to Newcastle

If you've an eye for it, it can be done. Villa are more attractive than most.

Even David o' Leary delivered some gems in Laursen and Bouma!

Helix

arguably the best players at villa (barry, laursen, bouma, agbonlahor *spit*) were all there before o'neill

Mr.Nice Guy

Helix wrote: »

tell us why?

is it his tactics? or his use of players in the wrong positions? or his insistence on forcing his favourites into the team regardless of what it does to formations? or is it constantly playing out of form players no matter how bad they get? or is it his sparkling transfer record?

yes he took villa from 16th to 11th to 6th and 5th/6th this season

but he spent a LOT of money doing it, and the villa team that finished 16th on dols last season werent as bad as the finish suggested. that team finished there because in the final third of the season the manager lost the dressing room, the chairman was scheming to get him out of the club, and the fans turned on him

and you know the funny thing? the run at the end of that season wasnt as bad as the run at the end of this season

mon has done NOTHING at villa that any half decent coach wouldnt have done... apart from maybe going the best part of 3 years without a right back playing at right back

Villa were 16th under O'Leary. It doesn't matter what the reasons where or how good the football was, that is the fact. Since O'Neill has come in Villa have steadily progressed to the point where they pushed Arsenal for a Champions League place. Yes they missed out in the final stretch but how can you not regard that as progress?

You mention the money he has spent but if it gets the job done then what's the problem? What do you want exactly? Villa to be winning the title? Surely the man is doing the best he can.

Let's not forget he lost Laursen at a bad time and will now face the task of replacing him. He lost Mellberg last season who was great for him yet he managed to deal with that loss. He brought in Friedel who did very well. Young and Agbonlahor have come along under him, the latter fell away a bit admittedly.

Honestly some people need a reality check. Wenger's getting criticised by some people, then O'Neill, not every team can win the league!

Headshot

this is reminding me of Newcastle

Guy:Incognito

Boggles wrote: »

I know your not United, my question was very simple who would YOU realistically sign?

Theres no reason he cant beat the teams around them to signatures. If with nothing ele then with money.

Everton, Spurs, West Ham, Fulham, Newcastle(probably wont be a problem),Bolton, Blackburn, City.

How are any of them any more desirable destinations than Villa?

Boggles

Helix wrote: »

a list of possible players, not a list of must haves, but ones that would improve what martin keeps reminding us is a terribly small squad

michael turner (hull)
brede hangeland (fulham)
david wheater (middlesbrough)
kevin doyle (reading)
obafemi martins (newcastle)
paul robinson (west brom)
stephen dafour (standard)
vangner love (cska)

not a single one of them is beyond our means or reputation

Alright compare that to what Arsenal have and you expect to break the top 4?

The only one that would improve ye from that list is Hangeland and he could have the pick of clubs in Europe after the season he just had.