The Martin O'Neill debate

Mr.Nice Guy

Stekelly wrote: »

If thats the case then Hull competed for a CL place. They were out of it weeks ago and even that was with Arsenal having a poxy season.

Hull didn't have Arsenal worried though, come on. There was a point prior to the March disaster when Arsenal fans were seriously concerned they could miss out on a spot. That to me is certainly evidence of progress from Villa's point of view.

Stekelly wrote:

Ah now here. Anyone who doesnt deliver titles to Celtic may retire from football. It's a 2 horse race.

How do you explain their Uefa Cup run under O'Neill? Or the numerous times they beat English teams? You don't think the team he had of Larsson, Sutton, Hartson etc. achieved remarkable things under him?

Helix

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Villa were 16th under O'Leary. It doesn't matter what the reasons where or how good the football was, that is the fact. Since O'Neill has come in Villa have steadily progressed to the point where they pushed Arsenal for a Champions League place. Yes they missed out in the final stretch but how can you not regard that as progress?

You mention the money he has spent but if it gets the job done then what's the problem? What do you want exactly? Villa to be winning the title? Surely the man is doing the best he can.

Let's not forget he lost Laursen at a bad time and will now face the task of replacing him. He lost Mellberg last season who was great for him yet he managed to deal with that loss. He brought in Friedel who did very well. Young and Agbonlahor have come along under him, the latter fell away a bit admittedly.

Honestly some people need a reality check. Wenger's getting criticised by some people, then O'Neill, not every team can win the league!

nobodys saying villa will win the league

1 win since the 8th of february is a disgrace though. laursen was injured before the transfer window even opened in january, yet he wasnt replaced. if we dont beat newcastle next weekend (which we probably wont) we'll finish with 60 points, the same amount we finished with last season

considering the outlay on players thats not a good enough return

its all well and good for a neutral to look at it and say "oh hasnt he done well" but you havent seen the rubbish he serves up week after week, or the tactical ineptitude, or the inability to use substitutions, or any of the countless other hideous balls ups he makes regularly

martin o'neill is a myth, he isnt a great manager

Guy:Incognito

Boggles wrote: »

Moyes is an exceptional manager.

So Moyes is excetional but MON is supposedly brilliant, surely all the mone could at least brigde the(small) gap, no?

The most basic thing is that MON and his appologists sight a lack of squad depth as a main hinderance. No team in the PL has a problem attracting squd players at least. It's a problem of his own making.

He should easily be able to lure 4 or 5 decent players form lesser clubs to fill the squad. We're not talking building a CL winnign team, we are talking squad players to fill in for injuries.

Mr.Nice Guy

Helix wrote: »

nobodys saying villa will win the league

1 win since the 8th of february is a disgrace though. laursen was injured before the transfer window even opened in january, yet he wasnt replaced. if we dont beat newcastle next weekend (which we probably wont) we'll finish with 60 points, the same amount we finished with last season

considering the outlay on players thats not a good enough return

its all well and good for a neutral to look at it and say "oh hasnt he done well" but you havent seen the rubbish he serves up week after week, or the tactical ineptitude, or the inability to use substitutions, or any of the countless other hideous balls ups he makes regularly

martin o'neill is a myth, he isnt a great manager

The season tailed off I can accept that but they've been playing since July correct? I just think they're oout of it physically at this stage.

In my opinion there's only one way for Villa if O'Neill departs and that's down.

Boggles

Stekelly wrote: »

So Moyes is excetional but MON is supposedly brilliant, surely all the mone could at least brigde the(small) gap, no?

Has he not a chance of doing this next week? :rolleyes:

Helix

Boggles wrote: »

Alright compare that to what Arsenal have and you expect to break the top 4?

The only one that would improve ye from that list is Hangeland and he could have the pick of clubs in Europe after the season he just had.

would they improve us? absolutely

michael turner > knight & davies & cuellar
brede hangeland > knight & davies & cuellar
david wheater > knight
kevin doyle > agbonhalor & heskey
obafemi martins > agbonhalor & heskey
paul robinson > knight
stephen dafour > sidwell (our only semi attacking minded central mid... who we dont play) and a barry + petrov ultra defensive and uncreative combo
vangner love > agbonhalor & heskey

Helix

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The season tailed off I can accept that but they've been playing since July correct? I just think they're oout of it physically at this stage.

In my opinion there's only one way for Villa if O'Neill departs and that's down.

liverpool have played more games than us, and used the same amount of players

if mon stays we'll stay where we are, chances are if we get another manager in we'll stay where we are too, but if mon stagnates and we fail to progress then he has to be replaced. no point simply accepting 5-8th every season, to break into the top we'll need to be creative and mon doesnt have that spark

Boggles

Helix wrote: »

would they improve us? absolutely

Enough to break the top 4?

Bounty Hunter

the most strongley linked players to Villa as has been said in the Villa thread are the following atm:

Thomas Vermaelen (Ajax DLC)
Steven Defour (Standard Liege MC Playmaker)
Sebastion Delph (Leeds AM)
Daniel Sturridge (Man City CF out of contract soon)

PHB

Ultimately if MON is able to keep the squad he's put together and move on, he'll be good enough.

I however suspect that Barry, Young and Agbanlahour (sic) will be lookin elsewhere this summer.

Guy:Incognito

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Hull didn't have Arsenal worried though, come on. There was a point prior to the March disaster when Arsenal fans were seriously concerned they could miss out on a spot. That to me is certainly evidence of progress from Villa's point of view.

March isnt May though.
I never thought any different and said as much when it came up here, Villa were always going to fall away.

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

How do you explain their Uefa Cup run under O'Neill? Or the numerous times they beat English teams? You don't think the team he had of Larsson, Sutton, Hartson etc. achieved remarkable things under him?

I didnt say he achieved nothing. But beating English teams here and there isnt going to make him a great manager. They are the biggest and richest club in Scotland. They should be capable are decent European runs.

Strachan has gotten to the CL knockout stages a couple of times, why no fan fare for him?

Helix

Boggles wrote: »

Enough to break the top 4?

that all depends doesnt it

we likely wouldve done i this season if not for horrible mismanagement of the january transfer window

we were 8 points clear of arsenal, and have only one once since february 8th

we currently sit 10 points behind arsenal meaning 4 more wins out of that 15 game run (hardly undoable) would have them ahead of them going into the last game of the season

but at the crucial moment, the manager shoehorned heskey into the team and ruined all the consistancy we had. and hes still doing it

the fact that he wouldnt start carew when he was fit, in favour of heskey tells it all. john carew has scored in 15 premiership games this season, despite missing 3 months of the season with injury, and the manager was only recently convinced by him

something is horribly wrong at times inside mons head

Esse85

Boggles wrote: »

Enough to break the top 4?

We'd be comfortably 5th, not far off Arsenal, actually competing for the fa cup, league cup and europa cup.

Helix

Stekelly wrote: »

Strachan has gotten to the CL knockout stages a couple of times, why no fan fare for him?

something mon couldnt do, when he had more money... comparatively speaking

Bounty Hunter

Agbonlahor and Young wont go anywhere this Summer. people might sniff around Young, but hes happy and MON will price anyone out of the market at this time before they even seriously think about bidding on him. If next season Helix and co are right tho and no progress has been made the I think Young might look elsewhere.

Esse85

PHB wrote: »

Ultimately if MON is able to keep the squad he's put together and move on, he'll be good enough.

I however suspect that Barry, Young and Agbanlahour (sic) will be lookin elsewhere this summer.

Agbonlahor would only move to a worse team.

Guy:Incognito

Boggles wrote: »

Has he not a chance of doing this next week? :rolleyes:

Not unless he can wedge himself into that FA cup final, no.

He may well get a wind assisted 5th place finish but I have no doubt if Evrtons players werent savign themselves for the FA cup they would have picked up a few more points.

As above, City and Spurs underachievements have greatly helped.

Helix

PHB wrote: »

Ultimately if MON is able to keep the squad he's put together and move on, he'll be good enough.

I however suspect that Barry, Young and Agbanlahour (sic) will be lookin elsewhere this summer.

hopefully barry and agbonlahor end up elsewhere

i find it amazing that people rate gabby, and i think it comes down to the same reason they buy the mon myth... coz you havent been watching us this season.

agbonlahor is dreadful, if we could get over 10m for him id take the buying club's hand off

Guy:Incognito

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

The season tailed off I can accept that but they've been playing since July correct? I just think they're oout of it physically at this stage.
.

The part of the season that tails off still counts. Just because the bad results came March-May instead of Dec - Feb doesnt change the table.

Finishing 6th on X points is the same regardless of which games the points came in.

Again, if he spent some of the money he had on squad filler they wouldnt be so physically out of it. Entireley his own doing.

Instant Karma

Helix wrote: »

his tactics are awful, his team selections are bizarre (milner at right back today), and his transfers are unimaginative

ok Helix, your criticising him for playing Milner out of position, who else can he play in that position when he doesn't have any other right backs available?

Mr Alan

Instant Karma wrote: »

who else can he play in that position when he doesn't have any other right backs available?

and THAT i believe, is Helixs point.

why does a manager with free rein when it comes to transfers, have no other right backs available?

*in my head, i said that like Garth Pearce, at the end of In the Name Of The Father.

Bounty Hunter

I almost think we did too good too fast, nobody really expected Villa to be challenging for CL football at the start of this season and tbh at the start of the season i predicted us fighting for 5th with Everton and Man City and that was acceptable to me then. Id say even MON didnt expect the league pre 09 to go the way it went and until it did may have been planning for a uefa battle not a CL battle which we ended up in and falling out of.

Kinda32

Helix wrote: »

that all depends doesnt it



john carew has scored in 15 premiership games this season

I think that you'll find he has 10 Pl goals this season!!

In regards to MON, i think he has gotten away with the small squad excuse far too long now.. If Villa fans were asked pre season if they would be happy with 5th, i'm sure they would be pleased.. BUT, the manner of total collapse in the last couple of months, you'd have to be some way gutted as a villa fan, if only for the thoughts of what if...

Instant Karma

Mr Alan wrote: »

and that i believe, is Helixs point.

why does a manager with free rein when it comes to transfers, have no other right backs available?

I don't believe so Alan since he refuted the arguement of a small squad a few posts later.

Helix

Instant Karma wrote: »

ok Helix, your criticising him for playing Milner out of position, who else can he play in that position when he doesn't have any other right backs available?

whos fault is it that after 3 years he doesnt have any spare right backs?

perhaps he couldve put gardner or reo-coker (2 players with experience of the position) in there, rather than the player whos been our most creative for the last 3 months, and cant actually defend

Helix

Kinda32 wrote: »

I think that you'll find he has 10 Pl goals this season!!

aye i made a balls of that one, hes scored in 15 games this season

Kinda32 wrote: »

In regards to MON, i think he has gotten away with the small squad excuse far too long now.. If Villa fans were asked pre season if they would be happy with 5th, i'm sure they would be pleased.. BUT, the manner of total collapse in the last couple of months, you'd have to be some way gutted as a villa fan, if only for the thoughts of what if...

aye thats what makes it so bad

that and the fact that seemingly everyone else on the planet could see it apart from the manager

Helix

Instant Karma wrote: »

I don't believe so Alan since he refuted the arguement of a small squad a few posts later.

i didnt refute it to the extent that im saying its not the managers fault we dont have a spare right back

3 years... THREE YEARS without a regular right back

what the bloody hell is that all about in fairness

Mr Alan

I knew you'd like this thread Helix

don't say i never give ya anything!:p

Highsider

Don't think he's brilliant or neither do i think he's sh1t. He's nowhere near good enough for a top 4 club imo of course.

Boggles

Apart from the dross and has beens that have been mentioned as possible transfer targets on this thread, the underlined fact remains that O'Neill and Villa can not attract the quality footballer that other teams can.

His problem this season was overachieving in the first half of it.

Bottom line is he has the chance to get Villa the highest they have been up the league table in 12 years.

Most people think O'Neill is an 5th-8th league finish manager, the truth is Aston Villa are a 5th-16th league finish club.

At least O'Neill is keeping them at the top of that scope.

Bounty Hunter

btw when reading this as i expect Helix to be one of the more regular posters in this thread id suggest all readers take note of his sig

Helix

Boggles wrote: »

Most people think O'Neill is an 5th-8th league finish manager, the truth is Aston Villa are a 5th-16th league finish club.

how many times did we finish 16th, or outside the top half in premiership history?

Boggles

Helix wrote: »

how many times did we finish 16th, or outside the top half in premiership history?

You finished 16th once, 18th another time. I was being generous with my scope.

eagle eye

Headshot wrote: »

idk what he was thinking of buying Heskey,it be up there with the worse buys of the season imo

Ridiculous comment, most experts said at the time that it was a real scoop. Hindsight is wonderful though.

Helix wrote: »

thats a myth

martin o'neill isnt anything resembling a top manager

he plays long ball football, is tactically clueless and poor in the transfer market

they are NOT the hallmarks of a top class manager

if he got one of the jobs at a top 4 team he'd be sacked within a year, mark my words

What teams have you managed? What results have you had in the big leagues? Tactically clueless you say?
Poor in the transfer market, hmm Ashley Young was a bad buy then, John Carew, Curtis Davies, Stillian Petrov, James Milner.

Mr Alan wrote: »

Boggles, he's had all the money he wants though since he has been there-anything he wants he gets, according to those in charge at the club.

the control he has & the respect he has from the owner is unrivalled in the PL imo-the perfect enviroment for success which he isnt really bringing.

Do you really believe that he can buy anyone he wants? No CL football, Birmingham, come on get real man.
And you defend Rafa who took over a team near the top of the league and how many years without a trophy now and you still defend the man. O'Neill has spent less time at Villa and has made clear progress every season as far as league position is concerned.

Esse85 wrote: »

He'd do a great job at Portsmouth, Middlesbrough, Newcastle in that he'd bring stability to the club by consequetively finishing mid table with them

He's not at the level, or ever will be i feel to break into the top 4. SPL and midtable finishes are as good as it gets with him.

How do you make this out so quickly, he has spent three seasons at Villa Park and there has been progress each season. Does he not deserve the same amount of time that was afforded to Alex Ferguson at a much bigger club, to Rafa Benitez and a much bigger club?

Esse85 wrote: »

Santa Cruz to Blackburn

Van Der Sar to Fulham

Owen to Newcastle

If you've an eye for it, it can be done. Villa are more attractive than most.

Even David o' Leary delivered some gems in Laursen and Bouma!

Van Der Sar London vs Birmingham.
Santa Cruz Manchester(stones throw) vs Birmingham
Owen Money vs Birmingham.



Martin O'Neill needs to be given the time to show what he can do. I for one believe the man will make Villa contenders if given the time there. What do you people want from him, to instantly break the big four where all the money and prestige has been for the last number of years?
I'd expect him to challenge in two years time, he has made some really excellent signings and not just for the short term but long term if they do make it in the next couple of years to the CL .

I certainly don't understand this Helix guy, supposed Villa supporter. Do you remember being in the doledrums and wanting your old chairman out for years. Maybe you have been so long wishing for someone out that its just natural to you to continue to want somebody out.

Mr Alan I said it above, if you think O'Neill should not be at Villa Park, then top of the list for sacking has to be Rafa Benitez.
I personally don't think either should go.

Guy:Incognito

Boggles wrote: »

Apart from the dross and has beens that have been mentioned as possible transfer targets on this thread, the underlined fact remains that O'Neill and Villa can not attract the quality footballer that other teams can.
.

The only teams that have a bigger pull should be Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal. Everyone else is their level or worse.

Boggles

eagle eye wrote: »

Mr Alan I said it above, if you think O'Neill should not be at Villa Park, then top of the list for sacking has to be Rafa Benitez.
I personally don't think either should go.

The reason Mr. Alan started this thread is he still has it in for O'Neill after the Barry saga last summer.

Just like to point that out.

The hypocracy and double standards you have worked out for yourself.

Boggles

Stekelly wrote: »

The only teams that have a bigger pull should be Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea and Arsenal. Everyone else is their level or worse.

One of the biggest Cities in the world is not a pull for a 20-25 year old single footballer? :eek:

Guy:Incognito

Boggles wrote: »

Bottom line is he has the chance to get Villa the highest they have been up the league table in 12 years..

/Pedantic/ They finished 6th in 03-04. /Pedantic/

eagle eye wrote: »

.

What teams have you managed? What results have you had in the big leagues? Tactically clueless you say? .
.

Remeber that wenever you citicise anyone with anythign to do with professional football on here.

eagle eye wrote: »

Do you really believe that he can buy anyone he wants? No CL football, Birmingham, come on get real man. .

He has absolutely no excuse for having to small a squad. Zero. Theres no disputin that.

Boggles

Stekelly wrote: »

/Pedantic/ They finished 6th in 03-04. /Pedantic/

Sorry thought 5th was higher than 6th.

Helix

eagle eye wrote: »

Ridiculous comment, most experts said at the time that it was a real scoop. Hindsight is wonderful though.

its not ridiculous, jaysus anyone could see heskey wouldnt work at villa. he doesnt work with carew, so he was brought in to replace him... why replace your best forward unless youre an idiot?

eagle eye wrote: »

What teams have you managed? What results have you had in the big leagues?

do i have to be a chef to know that food tastes like sh1t?

eagle eye wrote: »

Tactically clueless you say?

yes, tactically clueless. our gameplan is get the ball and kick it really far up the pitch, maybe gabby or ash will get onto it. if that doesnt work, we kick it really far up the pitch

eagle eye wrote: »

Poor in the transfer market, hmm Ashley Young was a bad buy then, John Carew, Curtis Davies, Stillian Petrov, James Milner.

lets see shall we...

Curtis Davies - painfully overpriced, swings between looking like hes got potential and looking like a pub player
Steven Sidwell - disaster
Brad Friedel - better than we had
Brad Guzan - for the future
Nicky Shorey - disaster
Luke Young - super signing, 12 months too late
Carlos Cuellar - disaster so far
James Milner - gonna be a star
Emile Heskey - the signing that ruined aston villas season
Marlon Harewood - pointless
Zat Knight - disaster
Moustapha Salifou - pointless
Wayne Routledge - pointless
Stilian Petrov - came good 2 years later
Didier Agathe - pointless
Chris Sutton - pointless
John Carew - swap deal, only signed because we were offered him, we didnt chase him
Ashley Young - good signing, no doubt
Shaun Maloney - signed him, never played him, sold him
Nigel Reo-Coker - signed him, never played him in his correct position, probably going to sell him

thats hardly a mind blowing collection of successful signings now is it. thats the work of a man whos poor in the transfer market

Headshot

eagle eye wrote: »

Ridiculous comment, most experts said at the time that it was a real scoop. Hindsight is wonderful though.

.

experts have said that:eek:
i wouldnt mind seeing some links but ill discuss

32 games 5 goals 2 assists

says it all

heskey has never been a prolific goal scorer.

carew is a way better player.

Helix

Boggles wrote: »

Sorry thought 5th was higher than 6th.

yeah, but we're not 5th

Guy:Incognito

Boggles wrote: »

One of the biggest Cities in the world is not a pull for a 20-25 year old single footballer? :eek:

Why are any decent players playing in Manchester or Liverpool so?

Boggles

Helix wrote: »

yeah, but we're not 5th

Never said Villa were. :rolleyes:

Guy:Incognito

Boggles wrote: »

Sorry thought 5th was higher than 6th.

It is.

http://stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/PR/overview.html


If we are talkign like that then in the middle of August he has the chance to finish 1st and the best position they have achieved in the PL.

Boggles

Stekelly wrote: »

Why are any decent players playing in Manchester or Liverpool so?

Do you think I am honestly going to answer that.

You know the point that was made, I brought up London is a great selling point for teams at the same level as Villa and you bring up that shíté? :rolleyes:

invincibleirish

Boggles wrote: »

You finished 16th once, 18th another time. I was being generous with my scope.

Villa finished 2nd 2 seasons prior to finishing 18th, and finished 4th the season after, your scope has retarded vision .

Boggles

Stekelly wrote: »

It is.

http://stats.football365.com/dom/ENG/PR/overview.html

Ridiculous.

I said Villa have a chance to finish 5th.

But you know that don't you?

Childish!

Guy:Incognito

Headshot wrote: »

experts have said that:eek:
i wouldnt mind seeing some links but ill discuss

32 games 5 goals 2 assists

says it all

heskey has never been a prolific goal scorer.

carew is a way better player.

Agree, I remeber the talk in Jan and I spent most of it praying Liverpool didnt sign him.

Guy:Incognito

Boggles wrote: »

Do you think I am honestly going to answer that.

You know the point that was made, I brought up London is a great selling point for teams at the same level as Villa and you bring up that shíté? :rolleyes:

You have spent this thread not answeringan dodging while throwing in smilies.
If players at the higher levels can be tempted to other cities outside of London then why are the top players at the next level down any different?