The Martin O'Neill debate

Guy:Incognito

Boggles wrote: »

We were discussing the premeir league.

So was he.Good man

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FA_Premier_League_1992-93

tallaghtoutlaws

Don't often post in the soccer forum but Im loving this thread I for one agree with Helix I have to say. Villa in my opinion went down hill right after they sent that half assed squad to Moscow and honestly for O'Neill to do that in the first place was sheer madness. His decisions tactically never make sense.

CSKA Moscow 2 - 0 Aston Villa Lost
Aston Villa 2 - 2 Stoke Draw
Man City 2 - 0 Aston Villa Lost
Aston Villa 1 - 2 Tottenham Lost
Liverpool 5 - 0 Aston Villa Lost
Man Utd 3 - 2 Aston Villa Lost
Aston Villa 3 - 3 Everton Draw
Aston Villa 1 - 1 West Ham Draw
Bolton 1 - 1 Aston Villa Draw
Aston Villa 1 - 0 Hull Won
Fulham 3 - 1 Aston Villa Lost
Middlesbrough 1 - 1 Aston Villa Draw

Things went down hill from 2 weeks previous with that defeat to Everton but to send a sh1t team to Moscow when you could still progress to the next round sums up O'Neill for me. And from this moment of madness I feel Villa have never recovered. I think the confidence in Villa would have been better all round had they progressed into the next round of the Uefa Cup sure more games more pressure but certainly more to play for. 1 win in 15 games is pathetic for any manager.

invincibleirish

Boggles wrote: »

We were discussing the premeir league.

Boggles i know you are a bit of a personality on here and as such have to live up to your role as Boards celebrity troll, but you're talking crap, now run along.

Boggles

Stekelly wrote: »

You have spent this thread not answeringan dodging while throwing in smilies.
If players at the higher levels can be tempted to other cities outside of London then why are the top players at the next level down any different?

Because Manchester and Liverpool are much more attractive cities than Brummy.

Add to that the tradition and the 2 clubs you are talking about and that's why I dodge your question.

eagle eye

Helix wrote: »

its not ridiculous, jaysus anyone could see heskey wouldnt work at villa. he doesnt work with carew, so he was brought in to replace him... why replace your best forward unless youre an idiot?

John Carew has always been very injury prone and Heskey was bought while he was out injured which was clearly a case of making sure you had a big man up front who can play ball.

Helix wrote: »

do i have to be a chef to know that food tastes like sh1t?

What you eat is the result of good or bad cooking, you don't have to know the ingredients or form of cooking used.
Similarly if you just gon by results, then the food has tasted better at the end of each season.

Helix wrote: »

yes, tactically clueless. our gameplan is get the ball and kick it really far up the pitch, maybe gabby or ash will get onto it. if that doesnt work, we kick it really far up the pitch

As before, what qualifications, managerial experience and results have you to say these tactics are flawed?

Helix wrote: »

lets see shall we...

Curtis Davies - painfully overpriced, swings between looking like hes got potential and looking like a pub player
Steven Sidwell - disaster
Brad Friedel - better than we had
Brad Guzan - for the future
Nicky Shorey - disaster
Luke Young - super signing, 12 months too late
Carlos Cuellar - disaster so far
James Milner - gonna be a star
Emile Heskey - the signing that ruined aston villas season
Marlon Harewood - pointless
Zat Knight - disaster
Moustapha Salifou - pointless
Wayne Routledge - pointless
Stilian Petrov - came good 2 years later
Didier Agathe - pointless
Chris Sutton - pointless
John Carew - swap deal, only signed because we were offered him, we didnt chase him
Ashley Young - good signing, no doubt
Shaun Maloney - signed him, never played him, sold him
Nigel Reo-Coker - signed him, never played him in his correct position, probably going to sell him

thats hardly a mind blowing collection of successful signings now is it. thats the work of a man whos poor in the transfer market

You go through a huge list of players, we could do that for any manager. The facts are that he has signed five first team players who have all done a very good job.

Guy:Incognito

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FA_Premier_League_1995%E2%80%9396

Theres a 4th place finish for you too Boggles.

Guy:Incognito

Boggles wrote: »

Because Manchester and Liverpool are much more attractive cities than Brummy.

Add to that the tradition and the 2 clubs you are talking about and that's why I dodge your question.

How about Newcastle? What draws players there? The beaches?

Boggles

Stekelly wrote: »

How about Newcastle? What draws players there? The beaches?

You going to go through every team?

Fromvert

I dont see him as a top 4 manager and his achievements at Celtic need to be taken with a pinch of salt. Strachan has gotten a good bit of stick now and then and he is hardly doing any worse then MON. His transfers have been suspect.

People asking Helix who he would like to have Villa sign, most signings that teams make are ones fans wouldnt have thought of and its part of the managers job to be shrewd in the market and find some gems. I think this is his last season if they dont improve points wise maybe not position wise. Im also sure a couple of cup runs arent out of Villa's grasp.

One thing that really pisses me off is the managers of the teams in 5th - 7th that dont want to get into the Europa Cup. Correct me if im wrong but their aspirations are to break into the top four and qualify for the Champions League. If they do this and dont have a good ranking in Europe they will get a tough team and get knocked out ala Everton. Playing in the Europa Cup also puts the club in the shop window for players who are just below the Champions League bracket and have aspirations to play in the Champions League.

Guy:Incognito

eagle eye wrote: »

As before, what qualifications, managerial experience and results have you to say these tactics are flawed?
.

Probably the same qualifications that let you judge that players play well and managers do well.

If he's not qualified to comment on professional footballers and managers then neither are you.

MementoMori

In the league Villa have used 20 players in total, of those the following three have only had very minimal time.

Guzan 27 mins
Delfounseo 84 mins
Harewood 65 mins

Also for the record Fulham have used 22 players and Liverpool 23 players in the league (and both have only used one keeper, whereas Villa have used 2)

eagle eye

Stekelly wrote: »

Probably the same qualifications that let you judge that players play well and managers do well.

If he's not qualified to comment on professional footballers and managers then neither are you.

I didn't say that someone was tactically clueless, and why do you feel the need to answer a question that I clearly asked somebody else?

Guy:Incognito

Boggles wrote: »

You going to go through every team?

Again, they are competing with the likes of Newcastle , Everton, Spurs, So even if, as you belive, players will automatically choose Spurs cos they are in London(who cares about playing in Europe eh?), what makes Liverpool an Nwcastle more desirable destinations?

invincibleirish

eagle eye wrote: »

As before, what qualifications, managerial experience and results have you to say these tactics are flawed?

MON has made some extremely questionable tactical choices thru the season Eagle Eye, i don't think you'll meet a Villa fan who doesn't think likewise. The RB/LB dilemma, the switch to 442 to accomodate Heskey, and not to mention questionable subs during games which we threw away whilst his inability to make changes in games Villa are losing in suggests a degree of tactical naivety to me, which to be fair is exactly what Celtic fans said was a hallmark of his time there.

Fromvert

Stekelly wrote: »

How about Newcastle? What draws players there? The beaches?

Money and lots of it. Some of their players are on crazy money for the clubs achievements.

Boggles

Stekelly wrote: »

Again, they are competing with the likes of Newcastle , Everton, Spurs, So even if, as you belive, players will automatically choose Spurs cos they are in London(who cares about playing in Europe eh?), what makes Liverpool an Nwcastle more desirable destinations?

Simply, because they are not Birmingham.

Guy:Incognito

Fromvert wrote: »

Money and lots of it. Some of their players are on crazy money for the clubs achievements.

Villa have no shortage of money. MON just doesnt spend it.

Guy:Incognito

Boggles wrote: »

Simply, because they are not Birmingham.

Seriously?thats the best you can come up with? Neither Liverpool, Manchester or The north East for that matter are cosmopolitan London.

Much and all as I like spending time in Liverpool, I dotn know how my activities would interest a 25 year old spanish lad on 30k a week. I'd say rom the outside they are very much a muchness.

Although I will conced I havnt actually been to Newcastle.

Instant Karma

Didn't RL lose a boatload of cash in the current economic crisis? He's a shrewd manager. One of the best in the PL alongside the likes of Wenger, they don't spend a lot but get good results with what they have. Villa spent 35m you say, City spent that on one player!


tbh if you don't want him at villa I would gladly have him at Man City, same with Wenger.

Guy:Incognito

Instant Karma wrote: »

Villa spent 35m you say, City spent that on one player!
r.

But MON moans about the squad size, injuries, not haveing players. Who's fault are those things if not his?

Instant Karma

Stekelly wrote: »

But MON moans about the squad size, injuries, not haveing players. Who's fault are those things if not his?

Name one manager who doesn't moan, seems it's a job requisite these days in fairness, but at least you can listen to his dulcet Kilrea tones. The thing about MON is that he is a motivator, he's gets the best out of an average player, I would love to see him with ££ to spend.

shoutman

RL actually made money as the pound is devalued in relation to the dollar.

I don't think MON doesn't want to spend money, he just has a very set criteria for the type of player he wants to play for him. I think the criteria needs to be expanded slightly but I still have faith.

I don't think the current form is soley down to him but given that we will probably be in the intertoto cup again I can't see there being a marked improvement come this time next year.

Helix

eagle eye wrote: »

John Carew has always been very injury prone and Heskey was bought while he was out injured which was clearly a case of making sure you had a big man up front who can play ball.

yeh that would be great if emile heskey was a big man up front who could play ball

eagle eye wrote: »

Similarly if you just gon by results, then the food has tasted better at the end of each season.

and this season? we're in the same position we were last year, after spending more than every team in europe bar one

eagle eye wrote: »

As before, what qualifications, managerial experience and results have you to say these tactics are flawed?

i think the fact that we've won one game since february 8th points it out pretty well

eagle eye wrote: »

You go through a huge list of players, we could do that for any manager. The facts are that he has signed five first team players who have all done a very good job.

wowee! 5 first team players in 6 transfer windows at a spend of close to £100m?

youre right, he knows the market inside out

Fromvert

Stekelly wrote: »

Villa have no shortage of money. MON just doesnt spend it.

Exactly so no money for the players, so why go to Brummy when you can go Newcastle and get the money and if you ask me its a better city.

Helix

shoutman wrote: »

given that we will probably be in the intertoto cup again I can't see there being a marked improvement come this time next year.

there is no more intertoto cup and we've already qualified for the first round proper of the europa league

Guy:Incognito

Fromvert wrote: »

Exactly so no money for the players, so why go to Brummy when you can go Newcastle and get the money and if you ask me its a better city.

I think you missed a word there. I said no SHORTAGE of money. ie, they have loads.

Fromvert

Instant Karma wrote: »

Didn't RL lose a boatload of cash in the current economic crisis? He's a shrewd manager. One of the best in the PL alongside the likes of Wenger, they don't spend a lot but get good results with what they have. Villa spent 35m you say, City spent that on one player!


tbh if you don't want him at villa I would gladly have him at Man City, same with Wenger.

I can only laugh at that statement

tallaghtoutlaws

Boggles wrote: »

Simply, because they are not Birmingham.

That makes absolutley no difference as alot of Villa players dont even live in Birmingham. A fair few of them live in places like Barmhall, Bownden(Roy Keane) in the Greather Manchester Area. Footballers are now known to live in commuter towns outside the cities. As Birmingham is so close to the Greather Manchester areas Im sure you will find alot of the players living in that area. Andy Gray lives in an area called Barnt which is outside Birminghan and is a rich area and most likely has other footballers.

Fromvert

Instant Karma wrote: »

Name one manager who doesn't moan, seems it's a job requisite these days in fairness, but at least you can listen to his dulcet Kilrea tones. The thing about MON is that he is a motivator, he's gets the best out of an average player, I would love to see him with ££ to spend.

He does have ££s to spend and lots of it

Helix

MementoMori wrote: »

In the league Villa have used 20 players in total, of those the following three have only had very minimal time.

Guzan 27 mins
Delfounseo 84 mins
Harewood 65 mins

Also for the record Fulham have used 22 players and Liverpool 23 players in the league (and both have only used one keeper, whereas Villa have used 2)

21, youre forgetting salifou

Fromvert

Stekelly wrote: »

I think you missed a word there. I said no SHORTAGE of money. ie, they have loads.

No I didnt, MON will not give players the money that the likes of Newcastle would have especially under Freddie Shepard not sure now but id say more then you would get at Villa.

Instant Karma

Fromvert wrote: »

He does have ££s to spend and lots of it

I don't believe that Randy Lerner would allow 20m or 30m to be spent on one player.

Helix

Instant Karma wrote: »

Villa spent 35m you say, City spent that on one player!

closer to £100m in his time at the club

invincibleirish

Helix wrote: »

21, youre forgetting salifou

Did he get a game in the PL this season?

Helix

Instant Karma wrote: »

I don't believe that Randy Lerner would allow 20m or 30m to be spent on one player.

hes already said if mon wanted a player for £30m he could have the money

we spent £25m for davies and milner ffs

Fromvert wrote: »

No I didnt, MON will not give players the money that the likes of Newcastle would have especially under Freddie Shepard not sure now but id say more then you would get at Villa.

and is that not a problem caused by the manager?

Guy:Incognito

Fromvert wrote: »

No I didnt, MON will not give players the money that the likes of Newcastle would have especially under Freddie Shepard not sure now but id say more then you would get at Villa.

That was my point though. The money is there, he choses not to spend it so he has no excuses.

Helix

invincibleirish wrote: »

Did he get a game in the PL this season?

yeh, couple of run outs as sub afaik

Fromvert

Instant Karma wrote: »

I don't believe that Randy Lerner would allow 20m or 30m to be spent on one player.

I think it would be the opposite I dont think MON would spend that much on a player as if it failed then he could have no excuses. He gave him £10m to buy a kid in Ashley Young why not £20m - £30m on a proven top player. I dont want to know how much Knight played cause it would probably make me laugh.
No wait, Helix how much did he cost?

invincibleirish

Helix wrote: »

yeh, couple of run outs as sub afaik

Apologies for being the pedant but according to this he didn't:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=31201&&cc=5739

Maybe he shudda got a run at RB.

Fromvert

Helix wrote: »

hes already said if mon wanted a player for £30m he could have the money

we spent £25m for davies and milner ffs



and is that not a problem caused by the manager?

It is a problem caused by the manager, thats what i was trying to say. He is to blame

MementoMori

Helix wrote: »

yeh, couple of run outs as sub afaik

Premier League website says he didn't. Only appeared in the UEFA Cup and the FA Cup as far as I can see.

Fromvert

Stekelly wrote: »

That was my point though. The money is there, he choses not to spend it so he has no excuses.

You asked why would a player go to Newcastle over Villa. I said the money. You said Villa have money but dont spent thus leading to my reason as to why they would choose Newcastle over Villa. The money

eagle eye

Helix wrote: »

yeh that would be great if emile heskey was a big man up front who could play ball

He certainly was playing well at Wigan, just unfortunate that he was unable to fit in quckly at Villa.

Helix wrote: »

and this season? we're in the same position we were last year, after spending more than every team in europe bar one

Can you provide a link about that spending. I am surprised that you are second in Europe this year.

Helix wrote: »

i think the fact that we've won one game since february 8th points it out pretty well

No it does not. Over the course of the season you are still more successful than all bar five other teams.

Helix wrote: »

wowee! 5 first team players in 6 transfer windows at a spend of close to £100m?

youre right, he knows the market inside out

As I said we can go through every top manager and show players who did not work out at their clubs. The fact that he has signed most of the first team and the fact that they have made progress shows he has done well.
Also has there been any income or is that net spend you are talking about there?

MementoMori

List of the Villa players and what they cost - all of the top part are those brought in by MON; the ones in the second were either at the club prior to MON's arrival or have come through from the youths.

Brad Friedel £2m
Brad Guzan £600k
Luke Young £5m
Curtis Davies £10m
Nicky Shorey £3m
Carlos Cuéllar £7.8m
Zat Knight £3.5m
Steve Sidwell £5m
Ashley Young £8m
James Milner £12m
Stiliyan Petrov £6.5m
Nigel Reo-Coker £8.5m
John Carew Swap for Baros
Emile Heskey £3.5m
Marlon Harewood £4m
Moustapha Salifou Free

Martin Laursen £3m
Wilfred Bouma £3.5m
Gareth Barry Free
Gabriel Agbonlahor Youth
Nathan Delfouneso Youth
Craig Gardner Youth

That's a total of almost £92m (91.9)

On the basis of this MON's dealings in the transfer market hardly inspire much in the way of confidence.

Fromvert

Davis and Cueller = £18m, :eek: **** me thats shocking
Carew for Baros = great business

Fromvert

Maybe MON should put a bit of effort in and look at some players from outside of the Premiership.
11 from the English clubs
2 from the SPL
1 from America
1 from France

I wonder if he puts any effort in scouting Spain/France/Germany/Italy/Africa/South America etc etc.

Neil3030

I think MON should resign and we should bring back Dave O'Leary to spend Randy's blank cheque!

Roque Junior to replace Laursen anyone?

eagle eye

MementoMori wrote: »

List of the Villa players and what they cost - all of the top part are those brought in by MON; the ones in the second were either at the club prior to MON's arrival or have come through from the youths.

Brad Friedel £2m
Brad Guzan £600k
Luke Young £5m
Curtis Davies £10m
Nicky Shorey £3m
Carlos Cuéllar £7.8m
Zat Knight £3.5m
Steve Sidwell £5m
Ashley Young £8m
James Milner £12m
Stiliyan Petrov £6.5m
Nigel Reo-Coker £8.5m
John Carew Swap for Baros
Emile Heskey £3.5m
Marlon Harewood £4m
Moustapha Salifou Free

Martin Laursen £3m
Wilfred Bouma £3.5m
Gareth Barry Free
Gabriel Agbonlahor Youth
Nathan Delfouneso Youth
Craig Gardner Youth

That's a total of almost £92m (91.9)

On the basis of this MON's dealings in the transfer market hardly inspire much in the way of confidence.

You are a Liverpool fan right?
This is hardly an inspiring list if you compare them. Its not exactly awe inspiring, but over time he has improved the team with new signings. I believe that MON will do the same given time.
Fernando Torres July 2007 20,200,000 Atletico Madrid
Robbie Keane July 28 2008 19,000,000 Tottenham Hotspur
Ryan Babel July 2007 11,500,000 Ajax
Xabi Alonso August 20th 2004 10,750,000 Real Sociedad
Dirk Kuyt August 18 2006 9,000,000 Feyenoord
Albert Riera September 1 2008 8,000,000 Espanyol
Andrea Dossena July 2008 8,000,000 Udinese
Peter Crouch July 20th 2005 7,000,000 Southampton
Lucas Leiva 11 May 2007 6,750,000 Gremio
Jermaine Pennant July 26 2006 6,700,000 Birmingham City
Martin Skrtel 11 January 2008 6,500,000 Zenit St Petersburg
Craig Bellamy July 1st 2006 6,000,000 Blackburn Rovers
Luis Garcia August 20th 2004 6,000,000 Barcelona
Jose Reina July 4th 2005 6,000,000 Villareal
Dan Agger January 2006 5,800,000 Brondby
Mohammed Sissoko July 2005 5,600,000 Valencia
Fernando Morientes January 2005 5,500,000 Real Madrid
Yossi Benayoun July 2007 5,000,000 West Ham United
Diego Cavalieri July 2008 4,000,000 Palmeiras
Alvaro Arbeloa January 31 2007 2,600,000 Deportivo La Coruna
Sebastian Leto July 2007 2,500,000 Lanus
Jose Miguel Gonzalez Rey (Josemi) July 2004 2,000,000 CD Malaga
Gabriel Paletta July 1st 2006 2,000,000 Banfield
Mark Gonzalez July 4th 2005 1,500,000 Albacete
David Ngog July 24 2008 1,500,000 Paris St Germain
Scott Carson January 21st 2005 750,000 Leeds United
Mikel San Jose July 2007 270,000 Athletic Bilbao
David Martin January 2006 250,000 MK Dons
Antonio Barragan July 4th 2005 240,000 Sevilla
Besian Idrizaj August 2005 190,000 Linzer ASK
Jack Hobbs August 2005 150,000 Lincoln City
Alex Cooper January 2008 100,000 Ross County
Alexander Kacaniklic June 2007 75,000 Helsingborgs

Chucky the tree

eagle eye wrote: »

You are a Liverpool fan right?
This is hardly an inspiring list if you compare them. Its not exactly awe inspiring, but over time he has improved the team with new signings. I believe that MON will do the same given time.
Fernando Torres July 2007 20,200,000 Atletico Madrid
Robbie Keane July 28 2008 19,000,000 Tottenham Hotspur
Ryan Babel July 2007 11,500,000 Ajax
Xabi Alonso August 20th 2004 10,750,000 Real Sociedad
Dirk Kuyt August 18 2006 9,000,000 Feyenoord
Albert Riera September 1 2008 8,000,000 Espanyol
Andrea Dossena July 2008 8,000,000 Udinese
Peter Crouch July 20th 2005 7,000,000 Southampton
Lucas Leiva 11 May 2007 6,750,000 Gremio
Jermaine Pennant July 26 2006 6,700,000 Birmingham City
Martin Skrtel 11 January 2008 6,500,000 Zenit St Petersburg
Craig Bellamy July 1st 2006 6,000,000 Blackburn Rovers
Luis Garcia August 20th 2004 6,000,000 Barcelona
Jose Reina July 4th 2005 6,000,000 Villareal
Dan Agger January 2006 5,800,000 Brondby
Mohammed Sissoko July 2005 5,600,000 Valencia
Fernando Morientes January 2005 5,500,000 Real Madrid
Yossi Benayoun July 2007 5,000,000 West Ham United
Diego Cavalieri July 2008 4,000,000 Palmeiras
Alvaro Arbeloa January 31 2007 2,600,000 Deportivo La Coruna
Sebastian Leto July 2007 2,500,000 Lanus
Jose Miguel Gonzalez Rey (Josemi) July 2004 2,000,000 CD Malaga
Gabriel Paletta July 1st 2006 2,000,000 Banfield
Mark Gonzalez July 4th 2005 1,500,000 Albacete
David Ngog July 24 2008 1,500,000 Paris St Germain
Scott Carson January 21st 2005 750,000 Leeds United
Mikel San Jose July 2007 270,000 Athletic Bilbao
David Martin January 2006 250,000 MK Dons
Antonio Barragan July 4th 2005 240,000 Sevilla
Besian Idrizaj August 2005 190,000 Linzer ASK
Jack Hobbs August 2005 150,000 Lincoln City
Alex Cooper January 2008 100,000 Ross County
Alexander Kacaniklic June 2007 75,000 Helsingborgs

Rafa won the champions league in his first year, and the FA cup in his second. Whats MON won with villa again? In saying that it's stupid comparing Villa to Liverpool/MON to Rafa. Also I dont think rafa's list is anywhere near as bad as MON's.

Mr Alan

First off for Boggles.

I don't like MON, that is true. But the reason i started the thread though is nothing to do with that, or the Barry saga. It was because my favorite football writer, someone i post a lot of their articles on this site, wrote the article i started the thread with, and it was something that has been discussed on various threads already so i felt merited discussion by the wider community here. The activity the thread has generated shows i was right.

Second off, EagleEye who seems to think there is something hypocritical about me thinking o'neill should be fired while backing Rafa...........well perhaps he should have read my OP.

Mr Alan wrote: »

Now personally i don't think he should be sacked

Next he should probably look at the difference in the success the two managers have had at their respective clubs.

What got to me was how the kind of criticism that has been lashed at other, more successful managers, has never found its way near O'Neill who seemingly slips under the radar.

Oh & for the record, you may find my defense of rafa may wilt somewhat if we ever win only one match in nearly 3-4mths.