The Martin O'Neill debate

Neil3030

If we're specifically looking into why MON escapes criticism in the press, there are a few factors that spring to mind:

• He has worked with, and is presumably pretty tight with, the BBC
• His predominant use of English players has probably bought him some goodwill
• He (unlike Brown) is not an egotistical muppet
• He carries himself well in interviews, usually speaks very respectfully/praiseworthy of opponents, rarely moans, criticises referees etc.
• Villa always hit a major slump at some point in a season, so while it's been infuriating to only have one win since 2nd Feb, it's not a complete deviation from the status quo

Helix

MementoMori wrote: »

Premier League website says he didn't. Only appeared in the UEFA Cup and the FA Cup as far as I can see.

couldve been a uefa cup game so, definitely saw him playing anyway

Helix

eagle eye wrote: »

Also has there been any income or is that net spend you are talking about there?

gross spend

eagle eye

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Rafa won the champions league in his first year, and the FA cup in his second. Whats MON won with villa again? In saying that it's stupid comparing Villa to Liverpool/MON to Rafa. Also I dont think rafa's list is anywhere near as bad as MON's.

I can see over 70 mill spent there on players that are no longer with Liverpool. I'm not saying its bad either, I don't think MON's is bad. My point is you can show a list and say that its bad but it seems to me that its hit and miss at every club. You buy those players you hope will fit the bill but they don't always work out.

Yes Benitez got off to a great start to his time at Liverpool, but so did MON at Villa. In fact you could argue as to who made a better start, Benitez winning the CL or MON lifting Villa from close to the bottom of the table to a top six side.

My point is that top managers need time to get a squad of players capable at highest level in their system. Ferguson got that time when he joined United, Rafa has been given that time without a trophy for a couple of years now.

What happened at Villa this season was quite incredible, they were playing way above what anybody expected of them for the first half of the season. People have a tendency to only have recent memories, but before the season began Villa fans would have been over the moon if the team achieved fifth place, its unlikely now but it could still happen. Sixth place was considered as acceptible progress and its been achieved.

Liverpool went through a horrific patch too, but when you look at the season as a whole I'd say most Liverpool would have been very satisfied to finsih in the top two.

As you say comparing the two clubs is a bit off, I brought it up in reply ot Mr Alan and Momentori who are two Liverpool fans. They have been in threads castigating those who wanted to see Benitez gone, but come in here suggesting that MON should be gone. Sounds ridiculous to me.

Helix

Neil3030 wrote: »

Roque Junior to replace Laursen anyone?

dols the one who bought laursen in the first place

and mellberg

Helix

eagle eye wrote: »

In fact you could argue as to who made a better start, Benitez winning the CL or MON lifting Villa from close to the bottom of the table to a top six side

not really, theres not a huge amount of difference between teams in 16th and teams in 6th if we're being honest, especially over the course of a year or 2. various clubs league finishes over the past decade will show you that

Highsider

lol at people comparing Benitez to O'Neill. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a nissan micra :pac:

Helix

Highsider wrote: »

lol at people comparing Benitez to O'Neill. It's like comparing a Ferrari to a nissan micra :pac:

micras dont have very public breakdowns tho

Neil3030

OOOOoooooooohhhhhh.... here's an interesting one-

How many Villa fans would like to see Rafa in charge in b6?

Helix

not i, we have enough bizarre team selections as it is

invincibleirish

Helix wrote: »

dols the one who bought laursen in the first place

and mellberg

Nah ah Gregory bought Mellberg.

No i imagine Rafa would be gone in 3 years or less ala Venglos at VP. There is some merit to Eagle Eyes above post on the point of time. MON still has the benefit of the doubt, and a whole summer of transfer goodness, to prove us the naysayers wrong.

Helix

invincibleirish wrote: »

Nah ah Gregory bought Mellberg.

jebus was it? :eek:

bloody hell 2001 ollie signed

i honestly think we might see him back in the summer

Chucky the tree

eagle eye wrote: »

I can see over 70 mill spent there on players that are no longer with Liverpool. I'm not saying its bad either, I don't think MON's is bad. My point is you can show a list and say that its bad but it seems to me that its hit and miss at every club. You buy those players you hope will fit the bill but they don't always work out.

Rafa made good money of most of his players when he sold them though. Goodluck to MON getting close to £10m for Curtis davies. His only chance is if the blind kid from Dumb and Dumber takes over a football team.

Yes Benitez got off to a great start to his time at Liverpool, but so did MON at Villa. In fact you could argue as to who made a better start, Benitez winning the CL or MON lifting Villa from close to the bottom of the table to a top six side.

Lol. I cant believe your comparing winning the CL with players like Djimi Traore, Vladimir Smicer and Milan Baros to achieving 6th with players like Barry, Petrov, Gabby, and Melberg. They had a very good squad.

My point is that top managers need time to get a squad of players capable at highest level in their system. Ferguson got that time when he joined United, Rafa has been given that time without a trophy for a couple of years now.

He started in 2006, it's 3 years now and he's had plenty of money to spend yet he spends his time complaining about the size of his squad? Here's a thought, maybe instead of spunking £18m on Curtis Davies and Reo coker he should look to bring in a few more players.

What happened at Villa this season was quite incredible, they were playing way above what anybody expected of them for the first half of the season. People have a tendency to only have recent memories, but before the season began Villa fans would have been over the moon if the team achieved fifth place, its unlikely now but it could still happen. Sixth place was considered as acceptible progress and its been achieved.

If you told them about the mess spurs and Man city would find themselves in then I dont think so.

As you say comparing the two clubs is a bit off, I brought it up in reply ot Mr Alan and Momentori who are two Liverpool fans. They have been in threads castigating those who wanted to see Benitez gone, but come in here suggesting that MON should be gone. Sounds ridiculous to me.

No one's saying he should be sacked, but he alot of improvements to make.

Happy Monday

I'm a Liverpool fan!

But if I was a Villa fan I would be very pleased with MON.

Surley what he needs - like Moyes, Redknapp and others - is an injection of cash to build the squad up for next year.

Agbonlahor and Young are young players.

I'm stunned to see Villa fans criticise this man! :eek:

What do you want - David O'Leary or Josef Venglos again?

Helix

Happy Monday wrote: »

Surley what he needs is an injection of cash to build the squad up for next year.

you miss the point

mon has always had a blank cheque

he just uses it very very badly

Happy Monday

Helix wrote: »

you miss the point

mon has always had a blank cheque

he just uses it very very badly

Please explain?

He has taken Villa from rock bottom to 6th.

All managers have bought duds in their time.

But this man can bring CL football to Villa in the next 2/3 years.

Why all the criticism?

eagle eye

I won't bother quoting Chucky, just to say I personally rate Davies very highly and I think if Barry goes you will see Reo-Coker a lot more and he looks the business to me also.

As far as comparing sides that were taken over, all those players were in the Livepool team that finished second two years before that under Houllier.

Lol right back at you bring up names like Barry who was not rated by many outside Villa Park until Benitez tried to sign him last year, and Agbonlahor who was only beginning his career at that stage, and Petrov who was only settling in and getting used to the Premier League after years in Scotland, he didn't get off to a great start by the way. You say they had a very good squad, that squad minus MON's signings finished 16th the season before, including Mellberg, Laursen, Barry and Agbonlahor.

As far as the squad is concerned, its clear he wants quality and not just pack up the place with players who are not worth it.

Your comments regarding the 'mess' that Spurs and Man City are in is irrelevant.

Lots of people are suggesting that he should be sacked, and Mr Alan said in his op that he didn't think so but then goes on to intimate otherwise.

DSB

Happy Monday wrote: »

Please explain?

He has taken Villa from rock bottom to 6th.

All managers have bought duds in their time.

But this man can bring CL football to Villa in the next 2/3 years.

Why all the criticism?

Villa were never rock bottom, we had one season where David O'Leary had us playing absolute muck, but typically a top half team, quite frequently a top 6.

Helix

eagle eye wrote: »

I think if Barry goes you will see Reo-Coker a lot more and he looks the business to me also.

nrc is on the way to spurs

Happy Monday

DSB wrote: »

Villa were never rock bottom, we had one season where David O'Leary had us playing absolute muck, but typically a top half team, quite frequently a top 6.

The year before O'Leary took over I recall Villa were in decline.
My point is that MON is taking a strategic view of Villa's development.
Similar to Rafa in that respect.
4 of the 5 teams above him are among the top 6 in Europe.

Helix

Happy Monday wrote: »

Please explain?

youre saying mon needs a cash injection, but hes had as much money as he wants to spend in the last 3 years. he just uses it badly

as cash injection isnt what mon needs, a decent transfer policy is

eagle eye

DSB wrote: »

Villa were never rock bottom, we had one season where David O'Leary had us playing absolute muck, but typically a top half team, quite frequently a top 6.

You finished 16th twice in four years, and now you finish 6th at worst twice in two years. I think thats a massive improvement.

Helix

eagle eye wrote: »

You finished 16th twice in four years, and now you finish 6th at worst twice in two years. I think thats a massive improvement.

we also finished top 6 twice in approx 4 years prior to finishing 16th twice in 4 years

it was the same 2 managers who achieved both finishes each time

mon hasnt really done anything o'leary, gregory and little didnt do before him

eagle eye

Helix wrote: »

we also finished top 6 twice in approx 4 years prior to finishing 16th twice in 4 years

it was the same 2 managers who achieved both finishes each time

mon hasnt really done anything o'leary, gregory and little didnt do before him

He certainly has, you have been more consistent and improved every season.

Helix

eagle eye wrote: »

He certainly has, you have been more consistent and improved every season.

if we dont beat newcastle we wont have improved this season

and in terms of football, we REALLY havent improved. we've been awful for the most part this year

DSB

eagle eye wrote: »

You finished 16th twice in four years, and now you finish 6th at worst twice in two years. I think thats a massive improvement.

So do I. I'm a massive fan of what MON has done at the club, but I won't agree with the notion that he took us from rock bottom.

Chucky the tree

I won't bother quoting Chucky, just to say I personally rate Davies very highly and I think if Barry goes you will see Reo-Coker a lot more and he looks the business to me also.

Davies is good, certainly not £10m good. If that was MON's plan why sell barry last summer for £19m instead of having to either let him go alot cheaper this summer or let him for year in a years time?

As far as comparing sides that were taken over, all those players were in the Livepool team that finished second two years before that under Houllier.

That was 01/02 and we had Michael Owen who scored 19 goals in the league that season. The following season we finished 5th.

Lol right back at you bring up names like Barry who was not rated by many outside Villa Park until Benitez tried to sign him last year, and Agbonlahor who was only beginning his career at that stage, and Petrov who was only settling in and getting used to the Premier League after years in Scotland, he didn't get off to a great start by the way. You say they had a very good squad, that squad minus MON's signings finished 16th the season before, including Mellberg, Laursen, Barry and Agbonlahor.

Barry was always a very good players, debatable if he's top 4 quality but he's certainly one the better premiership players and most people thought that. Although he was more left back/left wing in those days. Yes it was a very good sqaud that had a poor manager and and I'm the players had low confidence and the boardroom situation didnt help. Villa under Doug ellis is a completely different beast to Randy Lerner.

As far as the squad is concerned, its clear he wants quality and not just pack up the place with players who are not worth it.

Looking at the list of players he's signed that's highly debatable.

eagle eye

DSB wrote: »

So do I. I'm a massive fan of what MON has done at the club, but I won't agree with the notion that he took us from rock bottom.

I'm not saying you were rock bottom either. I'm saying that you are now a more consistent outfit showing a lot of promise. Villa fans can look forward to next season and not have to worry about relegation struggles, MON is just that good that its not even a consideration.

mirwillbeback

Happy Monday wrote: »

I'm a Liverpool fan!

But if I was a Villa fan I would be very pleased with MON.

Surley what he needs - like Moyes, Redknapp and others - is an injection of cash to build the squad up for next year.

Agbonlahor and Young are young players.

I'm stunned to see Villa fans criticise this man! :eek:

What do you want - David O'Leary or Josef Venglos again?

I think this post absolutely, totally, utterley, sums up my point of people posting about clubs they don't know about.

leninbenjamin

MONs biggest weakness is in scouting talent. he seems to have nothing of a scouting network in place and rely too much on the old boy network.

apart from that he's pretty decent. He's not a tactical genious but neither is Ferguson. the big difference between MON and Fergy imo is that Fergy tends to surround himself with talented and knowledgeable staff, whereas MON seems to take everything upon himself. that's why MON will never be successful in a big club but will always overachieve with smaller clubs.

he's probably reached his peak with Villa alright, although I still think he's earned himself at least another season to prove himself with Villa.

raven136

Anyone who thinks MON is attacked by the media should listen to Gabriel Marcotti talk about him:D

DSB

eagle eye wrote: »

I'm not saying you were rock bottom either. I'm saying that you are now a more consistent outfit showing a lot of promise. Villa fans can look forward to next season and not have to worry about relegation struggles, MON is just that good that its not even a consideration.

I'd agree with you there, but I think next season he has to push on, or else give someone else a try.

eagle eye

leninbenjamin wrote: »

MONs biggest weakness is in scouting talent. he seems to have nothing of a scouting network in place and rely too much on the old boy network.

apart from that he's pretty decent. He's not a tactical genious but neither is Ferguson. the big difference between MON and Fergy imo is that Fergy tends to surround himself with talented and knowledgeable staff, whereas MON seems to take everything upon himself. that's why MON will never be successful in a big club but will always overachieve with smaller clubs.

he's probably reached his peak with Villa alright, although I still think he's earned himself at least another season to prove himself with Villa.

So who is a tactical genius then?
Why are you so sure that MON won't make it with Villa?
FYI MON has even said that he has scouts travelling Europe, he also says that all the other top clubs cover the games that they cover.

Clearly Villa is a less attractive club than the CL clubs and even now that Villa have money, they still have to compete with other non CL clubs like Spurs and Man City, even West Ham for signatures. Birmingham is far less attractive to most Europeans than London or Manchester.

In other words he needs that CL spot to get Villa on a level where they can compete with the bigger clubs. So he has to work a minor miracle, something that has eluded every other contender for a couple of years now.
If he does manage to do that in the next two years, then he can take Villa right to the top imo.

Esse85

eagle eye wrote: »

How do you make this out so quickly, he has spent three seasons at Villa Park and there has been progress each season. Does he not deserve the same amount of time that was afforded to Alex Ferguson at a much bigger club, to Rafa Benitez and a much bigger club?

Van Der Sar London vs Birmingham.
Santa Cruz Manchester(stones throw) vs Birmingham
Owen Money vs Birmingham

Alex Ferguson and Rafa Benitez both arrived at their clubs with a proven pedigree, and dont forget, back in the 80's when Fergie took over, there was far less pressure on managers back then and also Rafa won the Champions league in his first season.

Also your above excuses for the above players joining the said teams is pathetic as VDS more than likely came for the money as did Owen, both of which Villa could afford. Santa Cruz could play for Villa if he just wanted to be near Manchester.

My point still stands, its certainly possible to uncover some gems, the problem is who's trying to find them and where their looking, and thats my gripe with MON.

Ardent

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

That article is a load of rubbish.



Hmm maybe because when he took over from David O'Leary, Villa were 16th in the league whereas this season they have reached the point where they are competing for a Champions League place? It's called progress.

I also love how the guy mentions what O'Neill has done in English football, conveniently omitting the tremendous work he did with Celtic where he helped them to numerous titles and took them to a UEFA Cup Final, beating some great sides along the way. But hey, let's forget all that because it wasn't while he was in English football.

Martin O'Neill is a fantastic manager.

Top post. The criticism he gets is ridiculous.

Bounty Hunter

3 things are happening in this thread:

1) People are judging how good a manager MON is.

2) People are judging how good a manager MON has been at Villa.

3) people are judging how well MON has done as manager over this full season.

okay so seing as this thread is based from an article suggesting MON's flaws it is understandable that there have been a lot of negative comment esp from Villa fans as no offense to anyone else but we are the ones who watch all of Villa's games. However as I have stated i dont believe MON has already found his level and i dont think that next year will be his last as Villa manager.

a la the Gareth Barry thread last year I made a few early comments but then avoided commenting in this as I dont wont to be draged into a pedantic arguement over this, but again similarily to last year this thread has quickly grown to around 10 pages and there are a few things i want to respond to.

1) MON's track record is not a problem and is not something im going to go into detail on, because the main concern for people has always beeen can MON replicate the success he has had at a higher level. People dont generally dispute that He did great with Leicster for example winning cups before taking the step up to scotland and winning titles. They do question however if he can make the step up to challenging the dominant forces in England, something which he is now beginning to be judged on at Villa.

2) So yes there is the old line about well Villa were nearly relegated the season before MON took over but any Villa fan will admit that MON alone has not changed Villa. Doug left, Randy arrived, Villa changed. However MON was the man in charge of Villa during the improvement and he has to be given credit for it, as do the players he signed. We have seen many lists of players he bought and questioning their value etc and yes we essentially have an entire new squad (albeit a small one) under MON. These players have to be looked at in terms of when they were signed though and not in hinseight and tbh when they were signed were Villa not in a big upturn in terms of results.

Infact MON cant win when he signs players as even when he pays over the odds for players fans complain hes spent too much as they have with Milner, Davies and even A.Young initially. If people arent complaining about the big money buys they complain about his bargain dealing, everyone suggests their club sign the next Tim Cahill from the lower leagues but you know what their arent actually that many gems out there and its a gamble half the time anyway but you know what its not my money that was wasted on the gamble and we are also lead to believe that should he have wanted it more would have been available so i dont really care too much if we take the odd failed gamble, who knows maybe the next Salifou might work out.

Martin O'Neil is not a tactical genius, this i will admit. His teams play to give it a nice term old school football. He likes a big target man, playing in a big man little/fast man combo for example aswell as big strong defender who are an ariel threat and puts great value in players workrate. The thing is though this type of football can work, and results are what you are judged on. It wasnt really all that pretty watching Villa even when we were winning this season for example (Highlights were great) because we didnt have the ball most of the time firstly and secondly cos we played such direct football but again it was affective.

how about if we compare him to those around him results wise then considering as said that is what you eventually get judged on. David Moyes is the one most commonly compared to him but again Moyes and Everton have been in and around their current 5th position ever since MON got the job at Villa when as many have mentioned Villa had just survived relegation. Fast Forward 3 years and Everton are still fighting it out for 5th but are now joined by Villa. Yes Villa have had more money etc in those 3 years but i think its fair to say that Villa have made the most progress during that time. Of course David Moyes in this is also pretty much the hardest person excluding a top 4 manager you could compare him to. Last year Svens City were touted as possible CL contenders at christmass like Villa this year, since then they have become the richest club in the world and signed Robinho and co and still they wont even be in the Uefa next year.

3) ive already really started on no.3 this year as Villa manager but just to keep this somewhat structured here i go. No Villa fan can really complain about our pre-09 premiership this year, hell people even suggested us as Title contenders (not us Villa fans but some mad backstards did). However since then yes we have been terrible due to whatever reason Squad size, Injuries, early season start, tiredness etc and MON aswell as the players have to and to some extent have accepted responsibility and owned up to having not been good enough. Yet we dont judge a season on 2 halves, just like a football match if you are rubbish in the second half and lose 2-0 it doesent really matter if you won the first half 0-3 not to say thats an analogy of our season but you should judge the season as a whole.

Before the season started what did people really think Villa would do? did anyone honestly think we would break the top 4? No they didnt not even Villa fans. Most wanted consolidation and maybe improvement again on last season be that in form of a cup run, europe or an improvement on scraping 6th place and Intertot cup football. Is that not what we have done? yes it is dissapointing at the start that we didnt sign more than Emile Heskey and push on further in January but overall im not too dissapointed with our season if im honest.

Looking forward aswell I think it is madness to say O'Neil cant take us further, why not? just cos he hasnt done it before doesent mean he cannot do it, we have to give him a chance to try especially when he hasnt really failed yet. People and Villa fans in particular need to curb their expectations too. When O'Neil first arrived at the club he warned Villa fans that it would not be an immediate process and there was talk of a 5 year plan at the end of which we would want to be a CL team. Laursen is a big loss for next season and like most clubs yes Villa nee re-inforcements if they are going to try and build again while dealing with the extra threats that sides like City and Spurs are bound to posses next year but after 3 years to already be fighting for 5th on the last day of the season Villa under O'Neil are def heading inn the right direction for me.

LuckyLloyd

First off, I would just like to note that Helix has been owning this thread extremely hard.

Fromvert wrote: »

One thing that really pisses me off is the managers of the teams in 5th - 7th that dont want to get into the Europa Cup. Correct me if im wrong but their aspirations are to break into the top four and qualify for the Champions League. If they do this and dont have a good ranking in Europe they will get a tough team and get knocked out ala Everton. Playing in the Europa Cup also puts the club in the shop window for players who are just below the Champions League bracket and have aspirations to play in the Champions League.

This is the best place to start with O'Neill, waving the white flag against CSKA was a ****ing disgrace, and one that has backfired spectacularly. For a manager once feted for his motivational skills, what message did this send to his squad? 'I don't think you're good enough to compete in a cup competition and keep ticking along in the league and, as such, I need to limit your ambition'.

You remove the potential carrot of silverware, and leave the players with nothing to look forward to after a tough league result - nothing to reshift the focus on and break some of the pressure. Also, you get the likes of Barry, Young, etc looking around and wondering how serious Villa could be in Europe if they did finish fourth.

Mr Alan wrote: »

Oh & for the record, you may find my defense of rafa may wilt somewhat if we ever win only one match in nearly 3-4mths.

eagle eye wrote: »

Liverpool went through a horrific patch too

Now, this is the crux of the issue for me. I'm usually very careful about over - reacting to short term runs of form and individual results. Or using small data samples as the basis for grandiose statements. As such, I never bought into the portrait being painted of O'Neill as some manner of footballing messiah back in January, because there was so much of the season left.

Similarly, everything that has happened since the start of February and a negative review of his Villa tenure as a whole at this point does not mean that he is a '****' manager relative to everyone. But any claim to him ever becoming world class have been knocked to ribbons over the past three and a half months.

None of the top four teams have ever gone on a run of such ineptitude in all competitions over the past 6 / 7 years. And it would be one thing if it was just results, but it isn't. Villa's performances have been dire. Lacking ideas, composure, fight. I go back again to what he was so admired for at Celtic - his ability to motivate players to produce more than the sum of their parts, and his skills at getting limited / low confidence players to simplify their game and do a job (Bobby Petta). That is supposed to be the strongest aspect of his managerial skillset, and it has been entirely absent in terms of the way Villa have been playing recently.

To claim Liverpool's run of form was "horrific" during November - January is laughable when you are comparing it to Villa during February till now. AND, that is the comparison that we need to start making if Villa have serious ambitions of pushing into the top four. If the season had started in February, Villa would be in a relegation battle. That is disgraceful stuff altogether, and entirely indefensible in my view.

Neil3030 wrote: »

If we're specifically looking into why MON escapes criticism in the press, there are a few factors that spring to mind:

• He has worked with, and is presumably pretty tight with, the BBC
• His predominant use of English players has probably bought him some goodwill
• He (unlike Brown) is not an egotistical muppet
• He carries himself well in interviews, usually speaks very respectfully/praiseworthy of opponents, rarely moans, criticises referees etc.

Very good points. The perception of success and failure in football is so often a media construct, where myth is taken for fact. This is because the sporting culture over this side of the Atlantic has little time for the nitty gritty of actual stats and facts. In that regard, O'Neill has absolutely nailed it. He is popular amongst many of the British journalists and pundits who secretly long for a new British managed / largely British player based team to stick it to Wenger's international youth system Arsenal / Rafa's Spanish centric Liverpool / Abramovich's more money than sense Chelsea.

And in December / January, it seemed they had found their champion. Hence the rumblings that O'Neill was what Liverpool truly 'needed'. Well haha is all one can say to such things now.

We are talking about a manager who did very good jobs with Leicester and Celtic, and who is definitely not bad at his profession. However, the bar being set by the top four in the EPL these days is unbelievably high. Martin O'Neill has yet to prove he has what it takes to scale it.

Xavi6

eagle eye wrote: »

What teams have you managed?

Graeme? Is that you?! :pac:

eagle eye

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Now, this is the crux of the issue for me. I'm usually very careful about over - reacting to short term runs of form and individual results. Or using small data samples as the basis for grandiose statements. As such, I never bought into the portrait being painted of O'Neill as some manner of footballing messiah back in January, because there was so much of the season left.

Similarly, everything that has happened since the start of February and a negative review of his Villa tenure as a whole at this point does not mean that he is a '****' manager relative to everyone. But any claim to him ever becoming world class have been knocked to ribbons over the past three and a half months.
None of the top four teams have ever gone on a run of such ineptitude in all competitions over the past 6 / 7 years. And it would be one thing if it was just results, but it isn't. Villa's performances have been dire. Lacking ideas, composure, fight. I go back again to what he was so admired for at Celtic - his ability to motivate players to produce more than the sum of their parts, and his skills at getting limited / low confidence players to simplify their game and do a job (Bobby Petta). That is supposed to be the strongest aspect of his managerial skillset, and it has been entirely absent in terms of the way Villa have been playing recently.

To claim Liverpool's run of form was "horrific" during November - January is laughable when you are comparing it to Villa during February till now. AND, that is the comparison that we need to start making if Villa have serious ambitions of pushing into the top four. If the season had started in February, Villa would be in a relegation battle. That is disgraceful stuff altogether, and entirely indefensible in my view.

Wow, I love this bit about how bad they have played, it shows that you haven't watched that many games really and are just going by what others say. Let me take you back to April at Old Trafford, do you remember that game? Was that a bad performance where they lost the game in the 95th minute after United had equalised in the 80th minute? or their game against West Ham where they were on top for most of the game only to get caught in the 85th minute by an equaliser. What about the Stoke game where they were two up but conceded two very late goals in the 88th and 90th minutes. Thats only games where they conceded very late goals and nothing else but they were on top in those games for most of the 90 minutes.
That of course points to another problem, one of maybe fatigue and not enough depth to replace those tired players adequately. Thats a whole different issue though. I say they lost five points in them games which would have left them certain fifth place finishers at this stage and improved upon last season. You also have to add in that this squad lost their Captain(Laursen) and top goalscorer(Carew) for a huge part of that bad run. Again this points to a smaller squad and lack of depth.
While Randy Lerner says there is money available, is he willing to having seasons where big losses are incurred? We don't know that.
The other problem is that many players sign with big four clubs or other CL clubs abroad as squad players rather than play for an aspiring club thats not in the CL and that makes it tougher to break the top four.

I compared a bad run of Liverpool to Aston Villa much like I'd consider the improvement in Villa in MON's first season to Benitez first season at Liverpool, I'd compare run of bad form for a big four club challenging for the title to that of Villa challenging for fourth. Liverpool had a run of 24 points in 14 games which equates to 65 points over the course of the season and that would mean no CL football. Thats horrific in terms of where Liverpool have been for years. Thats Benitez sacked, similar to you saying that Villa would be in relegation given their form over a certin sample of games, and O'Neill would be sacked in that instance.
Lets go back to the very end of October, Liverpool had an 8 point lead on Manchester United albeit United had a game in hand. Arsenal and Aston Villa were equal on points. Forward on to right now and United have a 4 point lead on Liverpool, thats a 9 point swing for Liverpool over the course of 27 games giving United a full 3 points for that game in hand.
Arsenal have 69 and Villa have 59, thats a ten point swing. Not much in it is there?
You might also note that Arsenal have accrued more points since the start of Ferbruary than Liverpool. What chance have Villa got against that form in all fairness?

I know we can go on a few weeks and things change but thats the point isn't it? Its about a full season and not just any period over the season.

Liverpool and their fans would have been delighted with second at the start of the season, Villa and their fans would have been delighted at maintaining sixth spot at the start of the season.

On a side note, I've detected an arrogance amongst posters on here over the last couple of months.
We all like to discuss tactics and players and everthing about the game, but to come out with a statement like 'MON is tactically inept' leads me to believe that the armchair pundit is starting to believe that he could actually manage a Premier League side better than somebody like MON. LMFAO.

Helix

eagle eye wrote: »

Wow, I love this bit about how bad they have played, it shows that you haven't watched that many games really and are just going by what others say.

we've played a handful of decent games this season. for the most part we've been playing sickeningly ugly route 1 counter attacking nonsense. the problem with that is that you have to keep clean sheets for it to work

wynters

This whole thread is very, very harsh on Martin O'Neill.

The first half of the season was as 'good' - if not better - than the 2nd half has been 'bad'. The fact that we were still 5th up to yesterday despite this horrible run confirms that...

If you asked the same fans who are now so critical of O'Neill if they thought last summers transfer window had been a success when we were on a 14 game unbeaten run, 3rd in the league, and ahead of Chelsea (with summer signings Cuellar Sidwell Davies L Young Milner & Freidel all making up over half the regular starting 11 during that good run) I don't think you'd have heard many complaints back then. O'Neill also managed to keep Barry at the club during last summer's window let's not forget, and changed (questionable signing) Petrov to a role that seen him end the season as fans player of the year...

Admittedly, January was a big turning point. We didn't protect the position we'd got to by signing more players. I fully agree that Heskey was a disaster of a signing, but we badly needed a striker then (it looked like Carew was heading for the door) and for what was available at the time, at the price we got him at, Heskey didn't look a bad bit of business. To completely change a winning formula to accomodate him though was a big mistake.... We were rumoured to be after Paul Scharner back then too, who would have been good cover for the rest of the season... another mistake not signing him. But Laursen's injury didn't originally look as bad as it turned out to be and he was still supposed to be on the way back into February and even early March. He never came back. We lost our leader and biggest on pitch character + Some players lost form, and O'Neill had to re-arrange the furniture with what he had. We hit a busy patch of fixtures against very good teams, lost a few games on the bounce, confidence was dented, and we never really recovered from that... circumstances didn't help.

Progressing up the league from 16th to 5th/6th is easier than going from 6th to 4th. We're really only NOW hitting a stage of development whereby we can attract the calibre of player required to break into/be a top 4 side. This is exactly where we needed to be at this stage of the famous '5 year plan'. Sure, it could have been even higher, but circumstances haven't helped. It certainly wasn't all down to O'Neill...

O'Neill has made mistakes over the last few months - no question. But looking at the bigger picture - his pro's far outweigh his cons imo. For any mistakes he has made over the last few months to outweigh all his good work up to January 2009 in the eyes of some Villa fans, is very short-sighted, and a poorer reflection on them. Like I say, this is where we needed to be midway through the 5 year plan, and hats off to O'Neill for getting us this far, and to a point after only 3 seasons whereby NOT qualifying for the CL is viewed as such a dissappointment.

mirwillbeback

eagle eye wrote: »

We all like to discuss tactics and players and everthing about the game, but to come out with a statement like 'MON is tactically inept' leads me to believe that the armchair pundit is starting to believe that he could actually manage a Premier League side better than somebody like MON. LMFAO.

Personally, I think I could pick a team of players in their designated positions ( which is more than O Neill has done at least 15 times this year )

This centre half at LB, left midfielder and RB just gives the ammunintion to fire at him and rightly so.

Example is Reo Coker at Anfield getting torn apart at RB - he is a midfielder through and through.

The taking off of Milner at OT is another tactical decision that absolutely baffles - best player by miles on the day, why would you replace him? Not everything in football needs to be complicated, it's fundamentally a very easy game. Best players in best positions. Easy.

eagle eye

Helix wrote: »

we've played a handful of decent games this season. for the most part we've been playing sickeningly ugly route 1 counter attacking nonsense. the problem with that is that you have to keep clean sheets for it to work

Do you agree with the player of the year being Stillian Petrov?

Tell me how he can play so well in a route 1 system? They must be using their midfield quite a bit for him and Barry to have such good seasons, and Milner and Young.

wynters

The funny thing is - it's not even 'route one' football! It's hitting teams on the break by getting the ball to your front men asap before the opposition get the chance to reorganize. United have been doing it for years! We probably use our 2 wingers more than any other team in the league. It could occasionally be called 'long passing' alright, but labelling it 'route one' - the stuff of Graham Taylor, Jack Charlton or Dave Bassett is very VERY wide of the mark.

eagle eye

mirwillbeback wrote: »

Personally, I think I could pick a team of players in their designated positions ( which is more than O Neill has done at least 15 times this year )

This centre half at LB, left midfielder and RB just gives the ammunintion to fire at him and rightly so.

Example is Reo Coker at Anfield getting torn apart at RB - he is a midfielder through and through.

The taking off of Milner at OT is another tactical decision that absolutely baffles - best player by miles on the day, why would you replace him? Not everything in football needs to be complicated, it's fundamentally a very easy game. Best players in best positions. Easy.

Tactics is inclusive of the system you play, the roles that each player can fill in that system.
MON must have believed that those players would be able to fill the roles he asked them to play. I have to admit that I was surprised to seem Milner pulled at Old Trafford but maybe it was a fitness thing, the guy ran all day there and he was superb.
I'm just saying that there is so much inolved in tactics that its laughable that somebody comes on here and states that MON is tactically inept. FFS I could say that Tony Pulis tactics are up his backside but you have people on here saying he is in the running for Manager of the Year. Yet they are saying that MON has no clue. Like wtf?

Helix

eagle eye wrote: »

Do you agree with the player of the year being Stillian Petrov?

Tell me how he can play so well in a route 1 system? They must be using their midfield quite a bit for him and Barry to have such good seasons, and Milner and Young.

yeah petrov has been our best player

how can he be so good in a hit and hope team? because he breaks down the oppositions attacks

Helix

wynters wrote: »

The funny thing is - it's not even 'route one' football! It's hitting teams on the break by getting the ball to your front men asap before the opposition get the chance to reorganize. United have been doing it for years! We probably use our 2 wingers more than any other team in the league. It could occasionally be called 'long passing' alright, but labelling it 'route one' - the stuff of Graham Taylor, Jack Charlton or Dave Bassett is very VERY wide of the mark.

its hit and hope. get it up the pitch on the left hand side as quick as you can for ash to get onto

theres a reason we have the 3rd least amount of successful passes in the premier league

its also the reason we concede late on so often of late

eagle eye

Helix wrote: »

yeah petrov has been our best player

how can he be so good in a hit and hope team? because he breaks down the oppositions attacks

And then lumps the ball? Is that what you are saying?

How many times have you seen the ball move through midfield from Barry to Young to Petrov to Milner? I've seen a lot of that, its not route one football.

Kinetic^

Neil3030 wrote: »

OOOOoooooooohhhhhh.... here's an interesting one-

How many Villa fans would like to see Rafa in charge in b6?

Nnnnnnnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

DSB

Neil3030 wrote: »

OOOOoooooooohhhhhh.... here's an interesting one-

How many Villa fans would like to see Rafa in charge in b6?

I could go for a piece of that yeah. Not that I want O'Neill to go.