Landscaper wants payment for work not completed

Kashkai

Mods,

I was unsure whether this was a gardening issue or a consumer one but as it directly relates to a landscaping project, I thought it was more appropriate here.

I just want a few opinions here regarding whether I'm being unreasonable or not:

I employed a Landscaper to do work on my back garden which was a total disaster after my house was built. Now this job had 3 elements, i.e.

1. Garden (circa 1/2 acre) to be drained as its very wet (boggy soil). This was the most important element of the work for me as a new patio is not much use if it gets flooded everytime it rains. The Landscaper proposed 200 metres of drainage with pipes, drainage pebbles etc etc. It was a detailed quote and it appeared it would work (I have previous job experience in drainage schemes so I know something about land drainage).

2. Garden itself to be sprayed off to kill weeds, moss etc, turned over, levelled and re-seeded.

3. Patio to be completed as per HIS PLAN.

We had agreed on a figure of €20,000 for the entire job broken down as follows - drainage €2,500, garden €2,500, patio €15,000. A sum of 30% would be paid at commencement with the balance on completion.

Now what has happened is this -

He put in one drainage trench of about 12 metres and connected it to the drainage for the patio. He has refused to complete the work as agreed at '1' above even though he wants the full amount for the drainage. After the heavy rain of the past week, it is blindingly obvious that the garden is completly waterlogged and his 'superdrain' of 12 metres isn't working.

The garden was not sprayed off but turned over and is now a pile of muck, and no doubt the weeds will return in full strength. He was supposed to come back yesterday with his 'garden man' to review the work to be done but no sign.

The patio was rushed to have it completed by last Friday as he has another job to start on Monday. When they were whacking down the patio, part of it sank. He blamed the bad weather whereas I think its also due to run off from the garden (thats not drained as agreed) that is undermining what he did. He did not put in the planned pergola as he now thinks it would be too large and imposing, even though it was is his plan. He quoted €1,500 for planting but when I accompanied his workmen to the nursery to get the plants, I was told that I just had a budget of €500 and the other €1,000 was a planting fee (for 20 sq metres of planting). I thought this was being very fecking cute but if its reasonable, then I'm in the wrong job as it took them just an hour to plant the plants and get their €1,000. BTW, they planted using the muck from the garden which no doubt has planty of weeds waiting to germinate. There was no weed control membrane or mulch put down as a weed inhibitor so I'm sure the new beds will be weed infested within a month. There was a gravelled area put around a tree and while his quote provided for a weed control membrane, he just put the gravel down on top of hardcore and bits of bricks left over from the patio work (and bits of plastic which are showing through the gravel). He has left the armored electrical cable showing above the beds and the lights are lying in the boxes on their sides in the beds.

Now he wants €10,000 for work to date as an interim payment even though this was not what was agreed. The patio has numerous snags, was rushed and I believe will sink in places, the drainage is not what was agreed and is a joke and the garden is a complete eyesore. He says we can hold back the amount for the garden but I think this is because he has no intention of doing the garden.

Now I have refused to pay him any more money pending completion of the patio, completion of the drainage and completion of the garden as was agreed per his quote. However, he has the brass neck to change the terms of our agreement and then act all hurt when I tell him he's half done the job that was asked.

The wife thinks I should give him €7,000 or €8,000 but hold back the final €5,000 for the drainage and the garden in case we end up getting someone else in to complete the work.

What are the opinions on Boards? Should I pay him (even though he's moved the goalposts more time than I can count or play hardball until the work is completed as agreed?

Sleipnir

I doubt you'll ever see the work finished to the standard you want.
I wouldn't pay him a single cent more if I were you.

John mac

how can he do the garden if the drainage isn't finished.?
i wouldn't pay a cent either.
is the contract in Writing? and signed.

any photos?


(you seem to be getting a bad run of it lately, hope it works out.)

Sonnenblumen

Propserous Dave

sorry you are embroiled in this unfortunate headache, but I hope you can find resolution.

TaxiManMartin

Dont pay him a penny.
Make sure and keep your agreements in a safe place.
Get a solicitor to send him a letter looking for the advance back too as he has done nothing that you have agreed on at all. It will cost you more money to undo his bad work.

leeroybrown

It sounds like the work will never be properly done so there's no point in paying him a cent more. As TaxiManMartin says above you should get a solicitor involved.

skywalker_208

Sounds like a cowboy! I wouldnt pay him a penny more. You might need that to get someone else in to fix his mess...

Anyway if he is not completing everything that was agreed at the start I wouldnt be paying him full price either...

blackgold>>

Does the land slope towards to the house?

old boy

you need a lawyer, who in turn will hire an agricultural specialist, who will examine, photograph and map you garden, then a report is furnished to your lawyer, only then will you recieve legal advise, in the meantime photograph your garden, make copys, if you have a contract make copys, return to the garden centre, ask for recipts of the plants that were supplied to you, make copys, remember MAKE COPYS OF EVERYTHING, paperwork sometimes has an irritating habit of going A.W.O.L. then the grief begins

Kashkai

Many thanks for the replies guys. Nice to know I'm not an unreasonable sod!

To answer some of the queries above:-

Yes the back garden does slope towards the house which is why I was so insistent on getting proper land drainage in place that would take as much water as possible from the back garden, down the side of the house and empty it into a culvert at the foot of my front garden (this is all downhill from the top of my back garden to the foot of my front garden and so should have worked).

Yes I have his quotes in writing. The good part is that I specifically asked for a detailed breakdown for each element of the work, in particular the drainage and so he has no wriggle room whatsoever when it comes to disputing what drainage was to be put in place.

He is due to come back on Thursday to complete the patio and he wants €10,000 by then. This is where the wife and I differ, she thinks if he has the patio completed, then we should pay him for this and hold back the money for the drainage and the garden but I think we have the high moral and legal ground as he has failed to complete the works as quoted for and agreed. We could have gotten any number of pavers to do a patio (and probably cheaper) but we wanted the garden, drainage and patio done as an integrated project and I had stressed to him in writing, and verbally on many occasions both before and during the work, that as far as I was concerned, the order of importance for me was drainage, garden and patio.

Now we did a background check on this guy, went to see his previous work etc, and he appeared to check out. He was keen to get our project (current economic climate I'd guess) but when we told him our total max budget was €20k, he said he'd have to see what he could do. He then came back and said he'd do the patio work at a much cheaper rate than he normally would charge. Now imo, this is why he's cut corners left right and centre so as to make up the difference in what he should have been making out of this job, i.e.

- he budgeted €2,500 for 200 metres of drainage pipe, connections and pebbles but he's just put in a 12 metre trench of drainage pebbles and a short length of drainage pipe connected to the aqua drain for the patio (which I'm sure will block in no time and theres no inspection covers to check for and undo blockages in this pipe), total cost approx €200 so thats €2,300 saved for him

- the pergola was dropped completely, and on his decision with no consultation with us

- the planting budget of €1,500 minus the "planting fee" of €1,000 for 20 sq metres of planting is taking the piss as far as I'm concerned

- no mulch in the beds is another little saver for him

- dumping gravel around the tree with no weed suppressent membrane (as quoted for) is more money saved for him. He's also left some of the tree's roots exposed sticking up through the gravel

We had our familes around yesterday for our daughter's communion and they can't believe how unfortunate we are when it comes to hiring contractors, no matter how much homework we do. My wife's brother is a farmer and he suggested (with no prompting from me) that I put in a lot of land drainage now before the garden is done or else we'll be sorry in years to come with a flooded patio. Nice to have my opinion confirmed by a guy who does land drains as a part time job. Pity he lives in Mayo!!

Ellechim

Dave, sorry you're having such a rough time.

We had a similar experience with a builder - he had done 3 other houses on our road, all wonderfully, he was a cowboy. It tuned out he had one very skilled guy do the work in these other houses - this chap was eastern european and left to go back home - so we got the shoddy workmanship. We made the mistake of paying this guy a lot up front and my other half fell for the 'paying for materials' line and we have had to re-do or get re-done practically everything he did.. I reckon something similar may have happened with your chap.

Here's what I'd recommend
a) don't pay him any more
b) give him the option of getting an arbitrator to negotiate the terms of the rest of the work and oversee the rest of the work
c) if he doesn't go for the arbitrator go straight to a solicitor, however, in the long run I really think you'd be better off cutting your losses with this guy and find someone else to do the work.

I wouldn't be giving him any more money

Minder

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

We had agreed on a figure of €20,000 for the entire job broken down as follows - drainage €2,500, garden €2,500, patio €15,000. A sum of 30% would be paid at commencement with the balance on completion.

Now he wants €10,000 for work to date as an interim payment even though this was not what was agreed. The patio has numerous snags, was rushed and I believe will sink in places, the drainage is not what was agreed and is a joke and the garden is a complete eyesore. He says we can hold back the amount for the garden but I think this is because he has no intention of doing the garden.

You have my sympathy - horrible situation.

I take it you have paid him €6,000. You need to make a fair and reasonable assessment of his account - this is a contractural term and one that will be used in any dispute resolution. When considering what is fair and reasonable, you can take account of various things...

The agreed sum for the works is not necessarily the sum of the parts - ie a fair valuation for the patio is not €15,000 if the garden and drainage are not included in the completed works. The builder will have loaded the rate for the patio to improve his cashflow - particularly if he does the patio first. So what would be a more equitable split for the three items in the quotation?

You also need to take into consideration whether he has carried out any of the works to the agreed specification. If the work is of poor quality, or reduced in scope, make deductions for the work not done, eg the pergola.

You can also make deductions in your assessment for the cost of correcting and defects in the work. So if you believe that the patio will sink, make an estimate of the cost of putting it right and deduct that from any amounts he may be due. Deduct an amount for clearing the pebbles from around the tree and making good the job with a weed membrane.

Don't pay anything for the drainage, a nominal sum for the garden to reflect the value of plants supplied. Reduce the patio by 40 to 50% and then deduct the cost of remediations. Ultimately, I would be looking to have the amount due for the work done to date valued at something less than the €6,000 paid to date.

Have this in writing and present it to him. Now, the interesting bit. You have to decide whether to give this loser a second chance - either he fulfills his contract and makes good on the drainage, the garden and all the patio defects; or you determine his contract (sack him) and he owes you some money. If you make any further payment to him, you may prejudice your position. Set the bar as low as possible, claiming monies back from him will be a good start.

If you go to dispute it is much easier to agree to pay some additional money than have to recover money from a cowboy.

Good luck.

Sonnenblumen

Dave

As a matter of interest Dave, what background checks did you do on the landscaper? You appeared satisfied with the reference sites, so why do you think it has gone so horribly wrong in your case?

It is difficult to imagine how and/or why the workmanship of a 'reputable' landscaper would suddenly deteriorate to such a low standard as you seem to indicate?

A fatal error would appear to involve the commencement of Patio works ahead of completion of land drainage?

Kashkai

Minder wrote: »

You have my sympathy - horrible situation.

I take it you have paid him €6,000. You need to make a fair and reasonable assessment of his account - this is a contractural term and one that will be used in any dispute resolution. When considering what is fair and reasonable, you can take account of various things...

The agreed sum for the works is not necessarily the sum of the parts - ie a fair valuation for the patio is not €15,000 if the garden and drainage are not included in the completed works. The builder will have loaded the rate for the patio to improve his cashflow - particularly if he does the patio first. So what would be a more equitable split for the three items in the quotation?

You also need to take into consideration whether he has carried out any of the works to the agreed specification. If the work is of poor quality, or reduced in scope, make deductions for the work not done, eg the pergola.

You can also make deductions in your assessment for the cost of correcting and defects in the work. So if you believe that the patio will sink, make an estimate of the cost of putting it right and deduct that from any amounts he may be due. Deduct an amount for clearing the pebbles from around the tree and making good the job with a weed membrane.

Don't pay anything for the drainage, a nominal sum for the garden to reflect the value of plants supplied. Reduce the patio by 40 to 50% and then deduct the cost of remediations. Ultimately, I would be looking to have the amount due for the work done to date valued at something less than the €6,000 paid to date.

Have this in writing and present it to him. Now, the interesting bit. You have to decide whether to give this loser a second chance - either he fulfills his contract and makes good on the drainage, the garden and all the patio defects; or you determine his contract (sack him) and he owes you some money. If you make any further payment to him, you may prejudice your position. Set the bar as low as possible, claiming monies back from him will be a good start.

If you go to dispute it is much easier to agree to pay some additional money than have to recover money from a cowboy.

Good luck.

I actually paid him €7,000 up front (I had offered €6,000 but he wanted €7k for materials) which was more than the 30% agreed in his quote for the works but this still left €13,000 in my pocket until completion of the works. When he approached me shortly after commencement of the works and sought the "interim payment" of €10,000, this set my alarm bells ringing, no actually they were screaming at me to wake up and smell the roses (not that he planted any :rolleyes:).

What galls me about this situation is that we were so insistent on getting the drainage done properly and this was emphasised to him in every conversation and email between us and was in his contract. When work started on the patio with no sign of any drainage works commencing, I sent a strongly worded email to him (I have a copy) reminding him of the importance of drainage works to us and that this must be attended to prior to the patio construction. He arrived the next day and started to dig a trench from the patio area out to the front culvert but instead of putting in drainage pipe, he put in a 4 inch wavin pipe to take the run off from the patio's aqua drain. He then connected his 12 metres of garden drainage (i.e. minus the other 188 metres of missing drainage) to this pipe. There are no inspection hatches on this pipe to check for blockages. When I pointed this out to him, his response was that I could dig up the pipe and clear the blockage if this happened. I thought he was taking the piss but he was serious, i.e. I would have to dig up about 30 metres of pipe from the patio to the front culvert that is buried about 2 feet down to find the blockage. At this point I lost the plot and confronted him. He was genuinely taken aback at my anger at his cutting corners and stated over and over that his superdrain of 12 metres would do the job. I insisted that it wouldn't and then he changed tack and said that no one could ever drain my garden as its so boggy. This is now his mantra for not doing anymore drainage as he's maintaining the line that it will cost me a fortune to do a complete soil transfusion. He had 6 site visits prior to getting the job so I can't see why he didn't walk away at this point if he wasn't up to the job (I can guess that he wanted the patio work which was front loaded and he had no intention of doing the drainage/garden).

Now I'm torn between waiting until Thursday morning when he's due to return to complete the patio (and have his hand out for the €10k) to have this out with him or send him a formal email today pointing out the defects in the patio, the absence of a comprehensive drainage system and the garden works that remain outstanding. Having this in writing would be better if this does progress to a dispute but I like to have things settled face to face. The other downside of waiting until Thursday is that I have 3 young kids to look after and they invariably distract me when I'm trying to talk to him (which he knows and uses to his advantage when he's avoiding work).

Kashkai

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Dave

As a matter of interest Dave, what background checks did you do on the landscaper? You appeared satisfied with the reference sites, so why do you think it has gone so horribly wrong in your case?

It is difficult to imagine how and/or why the workmanship of a 'reputable' landscaper would suddenly deteriorate to such a low standard as you seem to indicate?

A fatal error would appear to involve the commencement of Patio works ahead of completion of land drainage?

Hi Sonnen,

I went to see work he had done previously (from typical 4 bed semi-d back gardens to one project where he was doing about 500 sq metres of landscaping works) and one job he was in the middle of. The workmanship was good and I couldn't spot any defects or areas where corners had been cut. He also told me that he charged €14,000 for what I considered to be a small back garden in a housing estate and this made me curious about how he could do our project (which entailed 150 sq metres of sandstone, country cobble, pergola, archways, steps, lighting, 200 metres of drainage and 1/2 acre of garden for €20,000).

I believe that he has cut corners on my project to widen his profit margin, i.e. he told me (in his quote) that he would normally charge about €28,000 for a project like mine (garden, drainage, patio) but that he'd do the entire works within our max budget of €20k. Now, despite having things in writing and a plan for the proposed works, he is completely ignoring the drainage aspect, has cut several items from the patio (pergola, archways, weed control membranes) and did not even attempt to do the garden. In addition, charging €1,000 for a planting fee is preposterous, especially when he used the weed infested muck from the garden, did not put in any weed suppressent and left bits of plastic, bricks and electrical cable dumped at the back of the beds.

I completely agree that commencing the patio works ahead of the completion of the drainage was ridiculous and I pointed this out to him as soon as I saw his men starting to lay the paving but he ignored my concerns.

Sleipnir

At this point I would be sticking to your contract i.e. the quote he gave you. I wouldn't be kicked him off site but more demanding that he finish according to the contract.

He said that for €20,000 he would do the drainage - he hasn't and has now given up on it so where the (massive) reduction on the €20,000 price tag or does he still expect the same? If so, how does he justify that?

How can he expect the same amount of money for what sounds to be like about a quarter of the work? Also, if you pay him 17,000 then it only leaves 3k as the carrot for finishing the job. 17k leaving 3l is more than enough for some to walk out on a job.

I think if you pay him, you're just going to have to pay someone else a lot more to do the whole job from scratch. That drainage just won't last and he'll have gotten a lot of money and spent less than €500 on your garden.

Don't pay him a single penny more.

(Dig it up if it gets blocked? :eek:)

the_syco

Sounds like he's trying the classic knacker tarmac scam: half do the job, and then come back with a few mates to demand all of the money off you, before fleeing and never returning to finish the job...

old boy

this a a poker game, if you do not call his bluff, you are going to loose whatever you pay him, plus what it will cost for getting it done properly.

Kashkai

Thanks again for the replies guys. The wife still feels that we should pay him another €7 or €8k to keep him "onside" and to complete the works AND that I'm the one being unreasonable:eek::rolleyes:. This is despite the fact that she witnessed the patio sinking when they were whacking it down. My wife (lovely woman that she is) just sees a massive improvement on the weeds/mucky patch that was outside our patio door but I can see beyond the short term visual improvement and spot the corners that were cut, the rushed job, and of course the still to be completed drainage and garden. The only thing we have over this guy is the outstanding €13k due on completion of the works and if we start making interim payments (which were not in the contract), then we are undermining our position and we'll be sorry.

I guess this is heading towards some kind of confrontation which I had wanted to avoid after a very nasty situation with a builder a few years back that still gives me bad dreams. No matter how much I check someone out, I still get the cowboys. I must have been a right ba$tard in a previous life to deserve this!!!:(:(

Anyways, my gameplan is to draw up a list of incomplete works and present it to him when he comes around with his hand out for money. I'll give him a timelimit within which to finish the works or else I'll get someone else in to do it and pay them. I honestly can't see how he has a leg to stand on as I have his written quote and a plethora of emails between us emphasising the works to be done, the most important of which is the drainage and his detailed reply about the 200 metres of drainage that he planned to put down. The only thing I'm concerned about is that he could use the excuse of the poor weather lately to drag out the completion of the works, and to be fair, my back garden is a quagmire at the moment and it would be near impossible to get diggers/garden machinery to do drainage or do a new garden in the current soggy period.

Final query I'd have is that he can't undo the works he has done on the basis of my non payment of the balance? I mean he can't go taking up the cobble or do other damage and if he tried this, then I would be within my rights to call the cops? He appeared to be a reasonable guy up to the point where I started to point out the works that he had avoided but there was a noticeable cooling of relations from his workmen after this and the friendly smiles where replaced by dirty looks. I'm not thin skinned by the way and can go toe to toe with anyone who starts to act the maggot but the wife feels we are the ones in the wrong here which I can't get my head around.

Sleipnir

Dave,

I got hit badly with a dodgy builder a couple of years ago which left me with a house with only part of a roof, no back wall on the house, no running water, no heating etc and it took a year for me to get my family back in while I spent many a cold and miserable night working on it or sitting up with a big Maglite and a floor scraper in case in came back with the heavies again.
Two years on and I still can't sleep if there's a strong wind!

I got caught out with "interim payments" and I learned my lesson. It's very easy to get sucked in;"
"Sure just give me about 5 grand and it'll all be done"

Don't do it! Send your wife shopping or something! He won't care if you're onside or not once he has your money.

He can't go on to your property without your permission. If he says that he going to start tearing stuff up tell him that you'll record this on camera and call the Gardai. He can remove his tools but can't go digging up your garden without your permission.

edanto

Wow, what a shambles. Don't give him a penny, and delay his next planned visit to your house if you need some more time to prepare the documents that this will invariable come down to.

Can you get your wife on the thread, I'd really love to know why she thinks he should get some money? Maybe I'm missing something.

the_syco

Get a few friends over, in case the sh|t tried anything.

Minder

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Final query I'd have is that he can't undo the works he has done on the basis of my non payment of the balance? I mean he can't go taking up the cobble or do other damage and if he tried this, then I would be within my rights to call the cops? He appeared to be a reasonable guy up to the point where I started to point out the works that he had avoided but there was a noticeable cooling of relations from his workmen after this and the friendly smiles where replaced by dirty looks. I'm not thin skinned by the way and can go toe to toe with anyone who starts to act the maggot but the wife feels we are the ones in the wrong here which I can't get my head around.

Assessing the value of work done at the 7k you have paid him should give you some protection from this kind of nonsense from the builder. If he starts doing damage, I'd call the police.

Kashkai

I should have pointed this out previously but he completely demobilised from the site last Friday (he just left his rubbish behind) while I was out with my daughter. He knocked on the door and told the wife that he had done "about €25k of patio, that it was a fine job and we had got a good deal there". While he didn't ask her for money, he stood there for a while in a protracted silence expecting that she would hand over the "interim payment of €10k" that he had earlier told me was so he could pay the lads for their work. I had told the wife (not often I give her orders for fear of death ) not to pay him a penny so he went away empty handed.

He was due to return this morning to complete the works (i.e. the patio in his opinion, the patio, planting, weed control measures, drainage and garden in my opinion) but no show. I've held off contacting him/sending him an email to see what would happen. I'll give him another few days after which I'll inform him that he has walked away from the contract and thus there are no further payments due, and that I may be seeking repayment of the earlier advance payment. This will either be ignored or else legal action by him might ensue.

Some of the other posters suggested getting an assessor in to see what has been done. I'm presuming you mean another landscaper or is there a dedicated landscape assessor out there for use in these kinds of situations?

Sleipnir

I don't think there is a dedicated assessor out there. You'd probably be better off getting the opinions of a couple of landscapers. Maybe even an engineer for the drainage problem.

A very good friend of mine is a landscaper and wouldn't mess you around. If he says he can do it, he can and if he can't, he'll tell you so. He could certainly tell you if you're getting a raw deal from this lad.
If you want his number, let me know. He's based in Wicklow.

Minder

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

I'll give him another few days after which I'll inform him that he has walked away from the contract and thus there are no further payments due, and that I may be seeking repayment of the earlier advance payment. This will either be ignored or else legal action by him might ensue.

I just wanted to post in case there is any confusion over what I posted earlier. The builder does less than originally agreed, so is paid less than originally agreed. You can arrive at a fair & reasonable price by measuring the reduced scope of works; and also by deducting from amounts due to him for the cost of fixing anything that is wrong. The whole calculation should have some semblance of fairness about. In other words, you can't penalise him 50,000 euros because your garden is now a swamp. Obviously the builder won't feel it is fair, but the aim is ultimately to present the case to a third party who you hope will judge it to be fair.

If that means the work is valued at something more than the first 7k, then so be it.

One other point - have an add up of the number of man days worked, or man hours if you have that detail. What would be an acceptable rate for a groundworker? €12, €15, €20 an hour? If you have some idea of the labour cost, it might give you some comfort about your valuation for the works.

Sonnenblumen

Minder wrote: »

I just wanted to post in case there is any confusion over what I posted earlier. The builder does less than originally agreed, so is paid less than originally agreed. You can arrive at a fair & reasonable price by measuring the reduced scope of works; and also by deducting from amounts due to him for the cost of fixing anything that is wrong. The whole calculation should have some semblance of fairness about. In other words, you can't penalise him 50,000 euros because your garden is now a swamp. Obviously the builder won't feel it is fair, but the aim is ultimately to present the case to a third party who you hope will judge it to be fair.

If that means the work is valued at something more than the first 7k, then so be it.

One other point - have an add up of the number of man days worked, or man hours if you have that detail. What would be an acceptable rate for a groundworker? €12, €15, €20 an hour? If you have some idea of the labour cost, it might give you some comfort about your valuation for the works.

Disagree, a half finished house is not equal to half the value of a completed house. Who would sell a half complete anything and more to the point who would buy it. Work in progress is not simply a pro rata calculation except if the work concerned can be considered viable. A half finish patio is not viable, ie, unuseable. Also works completed unsatisfactorily could be challenged for additional costs, if for example, the work has made original situation worse. It could be possible to demonstrate that the inadequacy of the works completed has exacerbated an already acute problem relating to flooding.

Groundworkers, perhaps in Mongolia the charge out rate is €12/hr, a more realistic rate would be € 32.00-€35.00 BUT these would be what a professional landscaping co would charge. It seems clear to me that the contractors here were not landscapers.

Minder

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Disagree, a half finished house is not equal to half the value of a completed house. Who would sell a half complete anything and more to the point who would buy it. Work in progress is not simply a pro rata calculation except if the work concerned can be considered viable. A half finish patio is not viable, ie, unuseable. Also works completed unsatisfactorily could be challenged for additional costs, if for example, the work has made original situation worse. It could be possible to demonstrate that the inadequacy of the works completed has exacerbated an already acute problem relating to flooding.

You miss the point - an assessment of the cost of remediation can be off set against the account. So if the garden is a swamp and will cost 10k to repair, that amount can be deducted from the amount due to the builder. But it is not acceptable to penalise him 50k for the same problem. Penalty clauses are outlawed in contracts.

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Groundworkers, perhaps in Mongolia the charge out rate is €12/hr, a more realistic rate would be € 32.00-€35.00 BUT these would be what a professional landscaping co would charge. It seems clear to me that the contractors here were not landscapers.

I suggested that Dave have some idea of the labour cost. The builder will be crying into his tea that he can't even cover the mens wages. The men will be giving dirty looks to try and make Dave feel bad about not paying. Big difference between charge out rates and hourly wage rates. Has the builder been paid enough to cover the wages? With some idea of hours worked, it is one less argument that can be used against Dave.

Kashkai

Friday morning, one week since I last saw or heard from him and no show!!!

I've drawn up a list of snags now and its fairly lengthy.

- A new one is that there are 4 rows of cobbles that are a different colour to the rest of the patio, that I only noticed in the dry evening that we had last night. Its almost as if they were bleached. Obviously a duff batch that was overlooked (or they couldn't care less) in the laying of them last Friday in the rush to finish the job.

- A lot of the plants he planted (with his €1,000 planting fee :rolleyes:) are shrivelling up. One of the "specimen trees" is nothing more than a dead stick. The muck that was used in the beds is now sprouting weeds.

- 2 sections of the patio are retaining water, i.e. imo they are sunken and retain water in puddles even after the rest of the patio dries out.

- the garden is a complete mess. I mean it was wet before but now its a complete slushy mess and you'd disappear up to your knees in the muck. I had 3 land drains in it prior to the current work and they did help in removing some water but I fear they've been ruined by the 6 tonne digger and the dumper that he used in the groundworks for the patio and that ferried materials from the laneway at the back of my property up through the garden to the patio. There are pools of water that are not drying up, even in the brief dry spell yesterday. There are also pools of water where there were none before the current works began. Therefore, he's made a bad garden drainage problem worse.

- Weeds are sprouting up through the gravelled area around the tree where he neglected to put down a weed control membrane as per his quote.

The more I think about this, the more angry I get. I mean apart from charging €2,500 for drainage that he has no intention of completing, there has been no reduction for the abandoned pergola, archways, raised bed or weed control membranes. The wife thinks we have gotten a good deal if he doesn't come back to us looking for his money since we now have a large patio for €7,000. No matter how hard I try, I can't get her to see its a poor job and has caused more problems in relation to the drainage. The patio, which I think I'll christen "Titanic" as its sinking, will have to be redone properly.

One lesson that I'd like to learn from this is how do you spot a cowboy? I've mentioned that I did background checks on this guy, he has an impressive website of previous work (some of which is actually his work as I've seen it in the flesh), he seemed honest and upfront, his workers were onsite every morning at 7.45am and worked until 4.45pm Monday - Friday for 2 1/2 weeks with a few exceptions during bad weather. I actually think he probably is a good landscaper when there isn't a budget to work to but in my case, I feel he was cutting corners to boost his profit, when he agreed to do 150sq metres of patio, planting, drainage and 1/2 acre of garden. I'll wait until next week after which (if there's no contact in the meantime) he'll have been off site for 2 weeks and thus I'll take it that he's abandoned the job.

In the meantime, I might get another landscaper in to assess the work done, and how much it will cost to put right/complete the job.

John mac

make sure you have photos of everything.

Have you got before and after photos?

Sonnenblumen

Minder wrote: »

You miss the point - an assessment of the cost of remediation can be off set against the account. So if the garden is a swamp and will cost 10k to repair, that amount can be deducted from the amount due to the builder. But it is not acceptable to penalise him 50k for the same problem. Penalty clauses are outlawed in contracts.



I suggested that Dave have some idea of the labour cost. The builder will be crying into his tea that he can't even cover the mens wages. The men will be giving dirty looks to try and make Dave feel bad about not paying. Big difference between charge out rates and hourly wage rates. Has the builder been paid enough to cover the wages? With some idea of hours worked, it is one less argument that can be used against Dave.

A bit convoluted for me. IMO the relevant figures are
(i) what it will cost to rectify restore original conditions. The fact the contract was NOT completed to contract and standard is very relevant and not what costs/expenses the contractor has incurred. The client in this instance is most likely going to undo what has been done. Who he gets and what they'll charge is the key figure. The client will be very lucky to find anyone to go near this site, and nobody in their right mind will try to rectify mistakes created by someone else especially serious ones. Huge problem here with warranty. Client must reckon with re-instate original conditions and starting afresh. Nett effect: more costs and more inconvenience.

(ii) Again wage rates do not apply, but charge out rates. From the client's perspective, it is irrelevant what the contractor pays his/her employees. Here the applicable cost is charge out rate (ie incl of all associated costs for provisioning of employees on site).

Finally I disagree with your opinion, there are indeed penalty clauses for several areas of contracts, a very simple example would be charges for late completion.