10 Reasons to Get Fianna Fail Out of Power

deepriver

Brian Cowen is on RTE radio right now talking about tough decisions that his party & goverment are making to cure this recession. He stresses this is the reason why the party is so unpopular right now... UNTRUE

Its a good line to take and with a re-enforcement of this message over a sustained period and an organic recovery in economic conditions over a 1 - 2 year period could lead to a dangerous predicament... facing into less adversity, good times in sight and with Fianna Fails consistent propoganda resonating in the electorates ears, we might actually begin to believe it and forget why they need to be thrown out of power.

I am actually a big fan of Cowen as the government leader and I believe Lenihan is an extremely polished individual (look at his recent successes in europe).

But this party is fundementally flawed and its core network of corrupt and incompetent individuals still exist. At the first opportunity the party needs to be removed from power and kept away from power until the rotten core dies away. This could take a period of 10 - 20 years.

1. Fianna Fail is inherently a corrupt party and although the two most prominent members (Cowen and Lenihan are both competent and honest) the party relies on a network of cronyism, corruption and shady dealings through its network of nationwide members. Dont forget this is the party of Haughey, Ahern and Lawlor, three men that are no more than suited gangsters

2. Fianna Fail led the country to its most accute economic downturn in the history of the state, because they had a cosy relationship with property developers and bankers and preside over a country with almost zero regulation. The over reliance on property meant our recession was much more accute than what other countries are experiencing right now.

3. They are taking action to resolve the economic crisis two years too late and indeed should have had more prudent policies to preserve growth over the long term and reduce spending DURING the boom times.

4. During ten years of incredible economic growth we are still left with a 3rd world health system and transport infrastructure and first world prices. Where did the money all GO?

5. Fianna Fail as a party serves the needs of the rich including the developers, horse breeders, auctioneers and bankers. They do not serve the interests of the common man who pays his taxes and works an honest day. It is now that this backbone of the Irish economy finally deserve to have their interests met by a political party.

6. Compared to the Green Party and Fiana Gael, Fianna Fail have not devised as of yet a long term strategy to deliver jobs and growth to this country and are 100% focused on fire fighting an accute property based recession (and throwing money into a fire regards bank capitilisation and the healthcare system), they lack long term vision.

7. Ireland needs a fundemental change in attitudes and needs to adopt a more social, conservative, consciencence and prudent model of governance similar to France & Germany. This needs to come from the top down through governmental policy.

8. Ireland needs now to invest in infrastructure, health care and green industry to create and sustain growth and in the process create jobs and finally create a lasting legacy in regards health & transport. Instead they are battening down the hatches with higher taxes and increased VAT, reducing spending & destroying consumer confidence

9. There is a strong danger Irish people over time will forget how this party have brought us to the brink of bankruptcy and now constantly repeating their message of 'tough decisions'. The reality is these decisions should have been made 5 - 10 years ago

10. Fianna Fail to this day has never apolgised or shown any remorse for the situation we find ourselves in. Party members had their pockets lined through cosy jobs (chairing commissions, the seanad, junior ministers etc) and party affiliates also as they got access to easy cash from banks, shady land re-zoning and tax breaks. Where as the common man like you and me are facing reduced job prospects, loss of earning and tax increases.

Where to go next? Fiana Gael have devised impressive and focussed plans around health care and transport. This would create jobs and finally give us the transport and health care infrastructure we deserve. I also believe as Fiana Gael have spectated these unparalled time of greed and growth they have learnt through Fianna Fail mistakes how not to govern and they are also closer to the electorate and understand their needs better. For example Fiana Gael introduced the donations policy while seeing the general unrest in the county at Fianna Fails dubious fund raising activities.

The Green Party if remaining in power could put this country at the forefront of the green industry which could quite possibly become a long term and sustainble growth industry.

It looks like we wont have a general election any time soon, but I hope for everyones sake we can remember why Fianna Fail need to be removed from power.

dave-higgz

This is from the same forum at politics.ie

1. "They're a great bunch of lads, so they are"
2. "My father voted for them"
3. "And my mother"
4. "And my grandparents"
5. "We've always been a Fianna Fail family"
6. "My local FF TD sorted me out with a passport back in 1998"
7. "Sure, better the devil you know"
8. "They're a great bunch of lads"
9. "Ah Jaysis, sure you know where you stand with them"
10. "Did I mention, they're a great bunch of lads?"

Bertie is a great chap, man of the people and goes to mass.
They are the best of a bad lot.
The other crowd wouldn't do any better.
It's due to external economic downturn.
We'll build 30 new schools.
We protect the most vulnerable
We take tough decisions
We work in the background while the electorate go on holidays
We don't drink or swear, especially our "ladies".
It is important to say that we are going forward.

snubbleste

Only 10 reasons?

Cowen acts as the leader of a party not the country

redvictoria

Can you show any evidence that any of the others are any different?

Sully

redvictoria wrote: »

Can you show any evidence that any of the others are any different?

Yes, look at their policies they have annoucned and the quality of their bench.

Compare them to what we have against FF...

Time to move on.

redvictoria

We've heard the policies before. On closer inspection there just pie in the sky again. When have we ever seen the policies converted in to positive action and results, by any of them. " oh it was worst than the others said and so much more difficult to fix" two general elections of 1982.

mal1

Regarding point 8, i do believe that the current government are investing in 'green' infrastructure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_West_Interconnector

http://www.een-ireland.ie/eei/events/register.asp?eventid=95

oscarBravo

redvictoria wrote: »

We've heard the policies before. On closer inspection there just pie in the sky again.

Fine Gael's proposal for reform of the health system is "pie in the sky"? Why?

Sully

redvictoria wrote: »

We've heard the policies before. On closer inspection there just pie in the sky again. When have we ever seen the policies converted in to positive action and results, by any of them. " oh it was worst than the others said and so much more difficult to fix" two general elections of 1982.

Well, unless your living in a parallel country where FG/Labour etc. have been in power and FF haven't.. Its hardly pie in the sky. They need to be elected as a government to act on their policies and until they do so you cant harp on about lack of positive actions.

Mr.Micro

Regardless of what FG or Labour would do or their policies the current disaster that calls itself a Government has to be the worst we have ever had. Tough times yes and tough decisions yes, for the man and woman in the street, not for Biffo and all the other clowns with not a brain between them. As long as the banks and the developers come out of all this smiling then FF will be happy.

redvictoria

oscarBravo wrote: »

Fine Gael's proposal for reform of the health system is "pie in the sky"? Why?

They have'nt shown how they will finance it, that's pie in the sky.

oscarBravo

redvictoria wrote: »

They have'nt shown how they will finance it, that's pie in the sky.

What makes you think it will cost more than the current debacle?

redvictoria

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Regardless of what FG or Labour would do or their policies the current disaster that calls itself a Government has to be the worst we have ever had. Tough times yes and tough decisions yes, for the man and woman in the street, not for Biffo and all the other clowns with not a brain between them. As long as the banks and the developers come out of all this smiling then FF will be happy.

Biffo and the banks didnt force anyone to buy rental properties and new cars, they couldn't afford just to keep up with the Jones. Let's have the maturity to take the consequences of our own decisions.

is_that_so

mal1 wrote: »

Regarding point 8, i do believe that the current government are investing in 'green' infrastructure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_West_Interconnector

http://www.een-ireland.ie/eei/events/register.asp?eventid=95

Supported to the tune of €110 million by the EU and in fact a stated EU policy.

redvictoria wrote: »

They have'nt shown how they will finance it, that's pie in the sky.

So what's your answer? And even if what you say is true, your comment here suggests that you don't see the alternative as a potential government. What do we go for instead, a motley crew from the left wing fringe?

Sully

redvictoria wrote: »

They have'nt shown how they will finance it, that's pie in the sky.

With Richard Burton, a very credible finance leader (its well known, dont bother disputing that) at the helm of that? All partys have said FF have failed to supply them accurate information so they cant come up with anything decent but I do recall a recovery plan from FG and a part solution to the banking debts which FF have copied, changed and ran with.

Sully

redvictoria wrote: »

Biffo and the banks didnt force anyone to buy rental properties and new cars, they couldn't afford just to keep up with the Jones. Let's have the maturity to take the consequences of our own decisions.

No but they did live in a propertly bubble and fail to have a backup/recovery plan in place when the rise was to fail (it always does, the warning bells started ringing but FF continued to help their developer and banker friends leading us into a big huge mess).

So while the people lived it up, the government most certinally did.

redvictoria

oscarBravo wrote: »

What makes you think it will cost more than the current debacle?

Remember Michael Noonan 1994 - 1997 Great plans before the election, too costly after the election. A lot of the problem is the excessive control of consultants on the system. Who else can draw a salary for public work at the same time they attend to their private practise. It'll take a stronger government than we have or have available to break this monopoly. Why are Consultants salaries benchmarked to the politicians?

dave-higgz

redvictoria wrote: »

Biffo and the banks didnt force anyone to buy rental properties and new cars, they couldn't afford just to keep up with the Jones. Let's have the maturity to take the consequences of our own decisions.

The point is that he didn't stop them when it was the right thing to do! Biffo let it go too far.

Darragh29

deepriver wrote: »

I am actually a big fan of Cowen as the government leader and I believe Lenihan is an extremely polished individual (look at his recent successes in europe).

Can you offer any actual evidence that Cowen is a capable individual??? So what if Lenihan looks "polished" as you put it. It doesn't matter what he looks like, what matters is that he is respoisible for the nations finances and he seems to have fu*ck all of a strategy that might deal with the fact that we are spending 60 billion a year but only taking in 30 billion in taxes. He also has f*ck all of a strategy to deal with job losses and job creation. It doesn't matter how polished looking he is, he doens't have a credible strategy to deal with the problems that are there, and don't get me wrong, neither do Labour or Fine Gael. The reason is simple, NONE of them have any experience in business, starting up businesses and creating jobs is extremely difficult. We don't have a culture of entrepreneurship in this country because we've always been chasing the easy short buck, the handy public sector number or the cosy 45K a year job with the multinational.

Now that these jobs are under threat, we haven't a f*cking clue what to do and that is what our problem is.

oscarBravo

redvictoria wrote: »

Remember Michael Noonan 1994 - 1997 Great plans before the election, too costly after the election.

That's not even remotely close to being an answer to my question.

A lot of the problem is the excessive control of consultants on the system. Who else can draw a salary for public work at the same time they attend to their private practise. It'll take a stronger government than we have or have available to break this monopoly. Why are Consultants salaries benchmarked to the politicians?

Your objection to a proposal to fix our broken system is that it's so fundamentally broken that it can't be fixed?

That's taking political apathy to a level I haven't seen in a while.

Darragh29

Sully wrote: »

No but they did live in a propertly bubble and fail to have a backup/recovery plan in place when the rise was to fail (it always does, the warning bells started ringing but FF continued to help their developer and banker friends leading us into a big huge mess).

So while the people lived it up, the government most certinally did.

They are still helping their friends in property development with NAMA. There is no need for NAMA and all the attendent expenses that will come with it. All that is required is for the banks to be told that if they want to remain in the government guarantee scheme, then a requirement of the scheme now is that where development loans are outside of agreed terms and there is no real possibility of the accounts being normalised in the short term, then call in the loans and the loan securities.

What is happening here is the biggest scandal of all, the treatment the developers are getting is in reality preferential treatment, relative to the treatment that any of the rest of us would get if we defaulted on a loan. The fact that their loans were for hundreds of millions of Euro should make no difference whatsoever, the loans should be called in and the securities and guarantees that were given for the loans should be taken off the developers.

But as it often is in this country, it's one way of doing things for the rich and weathy and another way of doing things for everyone else. So here we are being exposed to another project that looks like it is going to end in a complete disaster, NAMA, costing another few hundreds of millions of Euro to PROTECT developers.

We don't need NAMA or any other bullsh*t organisation to sort this out, all we need is to go back to basics with regard to how banks are meant to deal with bad debt and apply the same rule to everybody.

redvictoria

My thinking exactly Darragh29. Politics in this country seems to be based on exposing the faults of the opposition rather than offering constructive criticism.

We didn't hear the opposition telling Biffo he was letting it go too far, so obviously they would have done exactly the same. It's easy to criticise with the benefit of hindsight, a demonstration of all their dedication or intelligence.

redvictoria

oscarBravo wrote: »

That's not even remotely close to being an answer to my question. Your objection to a proposal to fix our broken system is that it's so fundamentally broken that it can't be fixed?

That's taking political apathy to a level I haven't seen in a while.

There's is not a proposal to fix the problem. It a typical political attempt to buy favour. Where have they oulined the financial plan to achieve the result. They havent.

oscarBravo

redvictoria wrote: »

Politics in this country seems to be based on exposing the faults of the opposition rather than offering constructive criticism.

...like, say, proposing a complete revamp of the health system based on international best practice?

We didn't hear the opposition telling Biffo he was letting it go too far, so obviously they would have done exactly the same. It's easy to criticise with the benefit of hindsight, a demonstration of all their dedication or intelligence.

Yes, they should have cried halt earlier. But now, they're objecting to the government's NAMA approach and suggesting nationalisation instead.

Isn't that what you're saying they should be doing?

Or are you just opposing the opposition for opposing's sake, rather than offering constructive criticism?

oscarBravo

redvictoria wrote: »

There's is not a proposal to fix the problem. It a typical political attempt to buy favour.

And that's just archetypal Irish negativity. I despair of anything ever getting fixed in this country, because anything that remotely resembles a good idea gets trampled under a truckload of begrudgery. We'd rather put up with the crap we've got than, heaven forbid, consider the possibility that there's an alternative to it.

Where have they oulined the financial plan to achieve the result. They havent.

You haven't explained why you think it will cost more than the existing debacle.

ejmaztec

Is it the FF supporter standard to blame the present situation on the consumer borrowing too much money? Pat Public was never allowed to borrow outside any lender's criteria. However, when a developer wanted to borrow millions, the criteria went out the window.

Darragh29

Everytime we have a problem in this country, no matter what it is, politically the answer is to drop a committee, a taskforce, an agency or some bullsh*t entity, in between the people responsible for fixing the problem, and the actual problem. It is basically "outsourcing" the problem and the consequences of the problem not being resolved, to a whole body of faceless people.

All that is needed here to resolve this economic problem which is heading for disaster, is some hands on leadership. If I was Brian Lenihan, I wouldn't be setting up a NAMA, I'd be going into the banks tomorrow morning in person and I'd be saying: "you have to call in the developers who have defaulted on property loans and tell them that the loans and any securities that are on file, and being called in immediately." You've 24 hours to do it or your bank will be getting f*cked out of the state guarantee scheme on Tuesday morning at 9:30AM and I'll hold the press conference outside the front door of your bank as a warning to other banks".

Maybe it won't be the right thing to do, but I know from my own business experiences that the worst thing you can do is make no decision or put off making a decision. Above all else, make a decision and stick to it. If it is the wrong decision, grand, we'll learn from it but there is nothing worse than what is going on here, dilly dallying about a decision, messing around with this NAMA idea, while the man in change says he doesn't have the first clue about how it will work and what it will do, other than what he reads in the papers!?!

If this continues, we will be heading for bankrupcy, because businesses are closing down for every day that our banks are not lending and not only that, as they are not lending, new businesses cannot start-up. So we are losing more jobs for every single day of the week that credit is not available for businesses. What is needed now is IMMEDIATE action, no more fannying around with NAMA's, taskforces, committes or any other bullsh*t forums, just make a fu*king decision and get on with it.

ejmaztec

Darragh29 wrote: »

If this continues, we will be heading for bankrupcy, because businesses are closing down for every day that our banks are not lending and not only that, as they are not lending, new businesses cannot start-up. So we are losing more jobs for every single day of the week that credit is not available for businesses. What is needed now is IMMEDIATE action, no more fannying around with NAMA's, taskforces, committes or any other bullsh*t forums, just make a fu*king decision and get on with it.

It's ironic that the banks are reluctant to lend money to businesses because they see most of them as a risk, yet at the same time, the "risky" banks have no trouble getting their hands on the tax-payers' money.

Mr.Micro

redvictoria wrote: »

Biffo and the banks didnt force anyone to buy rental properties and new cars, they couldn't afford just to keep up with the Jones. Let's have the maturity to take the consequences of our own decisions.

I was talking about the developers, the banks and FF not the average people. So who is taking the consequences of the banks decisions in their appalling and reckless behaviour? Us the taxpayer because FF want it so. Effectively people have to deal with the consequences of their own borrowing and also collectively the loans of the developers and the banks. Nothing to do with keeping up with the Jones's.

Darragh29

Mr.Micro wrote: »

I was talking about the developers, the banks and FF not the average people. So who is taking the consequences of the banks decisions in their appalling and reckless behaviour? Us the taxpayer because FF want it so. Effectively people have to deal with the consequences of their own borrowing and also collectively the loans of the developers and the banks. Nothing to do with keeping up with the Jones's.

It's our fault, we put up with this. We should be absolutely fu*king beside ourselves with pure fury over this. It's one thing recapitalising a bank, it's another thing recapitalising a bank and the same bank bailing out a couple of dozen developers who are just too proud to be allowed to fail, with taxpayers money, and this is exactly what is happening!

Personally I think we should be out on the streets over this, like in Iceland, we should be out with our pots and pans and staying out until we get this sorted out for once and for all. No more bale outs for the weathiest people on the island, no more taxpayers money going into banks while small businesses that have been trading successfully for 20-30 years are going to the wall for want of credit.

And another thing, we should stand up and make sure we are heard, and we should FORCE FF out of office, picket their constituency offices, same for the Green Party or any other shower of wasters that are propping up this deliquent government, we should chase them out of office and we should send FG and LAbour a message, "if you ever even dream of bringing us even anywhere remotely close to where we now find ourselves, we'll do the same to you"...

The ultimate failure here in all of this sorry episode has to be ourselves as citizens. Grand we elected a government for 4 years and all of that and I'm all for democracy, but if a government elected by us ultimately wrecks the economy to the point where there is no actual economy left, then it clearly falls to us to step in when the signs that this is happening become clear and kick them out.

We tolerate this in Ireland and it's one thing I'll never get my head around... Your man at the AIB EGM the other day throwing a fu*king egg at the top table for f*cks sake, is he a child or something??? Every single person in that room should have stood up off their chair and fired their chairs at the top table and then chased the top table out of the building and out of town.

Brian Lenihan, Brian Cowen, Dermot Gleeson, they don't give a fu*ck about you or your lost pension or your job that is gone. They are well paid and that is all that matters to them. ULtimately we have let ourselves down here with regard to how we have handled ourselves...

goldenbrown

1 Enda Kenny
2 Eamonn Gilmore
3 George Lee
4 Richard Bruton
6 Joan Burton
7 Pat Rabbitte
8 Liz ODonnell
9 Michael Mcdowell (FG)
10 a new broom sweeps clean