10 Reasons to Get Fianna Fail Out of Power

meglome

deepriver wrote: »

I am actually a big fan of Cowen as the government leader and I believe Lenihan is an extremely polished individual (look at his recent successes in europe).

I laughed when I read this but in fairness I agreed with almost everything else you said.

meglome

redvictoria wrote: »

Biffo and the banks didnt force anyone to buy rental properties and new cars, they couldn't afford just to keep up with the Jones. Let's have the maturity to take the consequences of our own decisions.

You know I'm the first to say it was our own fault, we kept voting for Fianna Fail and happily followed their policies. However if I was one of those people who listened to the government repeating time and time again that they should buy this over priced property I might well feel lied to and cheated. I might well feel very angry, even if someone didn't put a gun to my head to get me into that ****. Thankfully I'm not one of those people but I still can't wait for Fianna Fail to be gone and I've never been party political.

juuge

It's amazing that for the past year we have been told how Brian Cowen has a great intellect, an inquiring mind, a man of great ability, a cunning mentality, highly principled and a great wit!
We're waiting!
No - Sorry Brian your time is up! Next!

paddyland

meglome wrote: »

You know I'm the first to say it was our own fault, we kept voting for Fianna Fail and happily followed their policies. However if I was one of those people who listened to the government repeating time and time again that they should buy this over priced property I might well feel lied to and cheated. I might well feel very angry, even if someone didn't put a gun to my head to get me into that ****. Thankfully I'm not one of those people but I still can't wait for Fianna Fail to be gone and I've never been party political.

HALF of those who voted, voted Fianna Fáil. Besides the large percentage who were so ignorant or apathetic they never voted at all. We didn't all vote for them.

Democracy is a funny thing. What mandate does a party have, who win say 51% of the vote, if 33% don't vote at all? A very weak mandate if you ask me.

And what kind of democracy do you have when half vote out of conscience, and half vote bcause they are easily sold by the giveaway budgets before elections, and because they find a few extra greasy euro in their pockets, and are afraid to lose it?

And what kind of democracy do you have when by whatever means, a party wins an election, and then go on to renege on every election promise they made, and usurp and rape their country, and the electorate who voted for them?

This word democracy is bandied around a lot, but I don't see much of it.

meglome

paddyland wrote: »

HALF of those who voted, voted Fianna Fáil. Besides the large percentage who were so ignorant or apathetic they never voted at all. We didn't all vote for them.

Democracy is a funny thing. What mandate does a party have, who win say 51% of the vote, if 33% don't vote at all? A very weak mandate if you ask me.

And what kind of democracy do you have when half vote out of conscience, and half vote bcause they are easily sold by the giveaway budgets before elections, and because they find a few extra greasy euro in their pockets, and are afraid to lose it?

And what kind of democracy do you have when by whatever means, a party wins an election, and then go on to renege on every election promise they made, and usurp and rape their country, and the electorate who voted for them?

This word democracy is bandied around a lot, but I don't see much of it.

All good points. I'd be in favour or elections not being valid unless a certain percentage of the population votes or that elections can't be held other than on a Saturday or Sunday. But maybe if we get a decent government these things might be possible.

jmayo

oscarBravo wrote: »

Fine Gael's proposal for reform of the health system is "pie in the sky"? Why?

Because it doesn't involve helping developers and rich businessmen use the health system as a tax right off (sorry I mean col-location).

redvictoria wrote: »

Can you show any evidence that any of the others are any different?

FF HQ Reason 1 to vote for FF ...

redvictoria wrote: »

Biffo and the banks didnt force anyone to buy rental properties and new cars, they couldn't afford just to keep up with the Jones. Let's have the maturity to take the consequences of our own decisions.

FF HQ Reason 1 why FF are not at fault, "we just gave you what you wanted and it's the fault of all of you".
BTW this argument has been used by FF supporters/members/canvassers on these boards.
Oh forgot to mention about how they gave us all tax cuts... so it's our fault.

goldenbrown wrote: »

1 Enda Kenny
2 Eamonn Gilmore
3 George Lee
4 Richard Bruton
6 Joan Burton
7 Pat Rabbitte
8 Liz ODonnell
9 Michael Mcdowell (FG)
10 a new broom sweeps clean

Take issue with Michael McDowell the former FF watchdog who acted more like a de-balled poodle than a rothweiler.
Don't want failed lamppost climbers ever back in government.

You forgot to add Dr James Reilly and would definetly bring back Ruairi Quinn.

juuge wrote: »

It's amazing that for the past year we have been told how Brian Cowen has a great intellect, an inquiring mind, a man of great ability, a cunning mentality, highly principled and a great wit!
We're waiting!
No - Sorry Brian your time is up! Next!

Yep these would be the same mouthpieces that tell people Kenny would be a bad leader of our country since he doesn't have what it takes :rolleyes:

It makes you wonder doesn't it

Mr.Micro

Originally Posted by juuge
It's amazing that for the past year we have been told how Brian Cowen has a great intellect, an inquiring mind, a man of great ability, a cunning mentality, highly principled and a great wit!
We're waiting!
No - Sorry Brian your time is up! Next!

Probably reserved all that for the Galway tent in previous years when he was Bertie's side kick.

Darragh29

juuge wrote: »

It's amazing that for the past year we have been told how Brian Cowen has a great intellect, an inquiring mind, a man of great ability, a cunning mentality, highly principled and a great wit!
We're waiting!
No - Sorry Brian your time is up! Next!

It's funny how urban myths can literally grow legs! I'm watching The Tudors here on TV3 and if Cowen was alive back in that era, he'd have been f*cked head first from the highest brick of his castle with a rope around his neck.

The worst thing about false leaders is that they have actually fully convinced themselves that they are natural leaders. You see this up and down the country in workplaces, people who think they can manage and lead yet they do nothing but stress people out and cause problems, but they "knew" someone or through some other stroke of patronage, landed a management job for themselves. It's the Ricky Gervais factor and you can see it at work up and down this country every day of the week.

This dismal elaboration by Cowen today that there are no circumstances under which he would consider his leadership position is a prize indication of a false leader, he is the Norman Dyke of Irish politics.

joseph brand

I'd say there's more than 10 reasons.

Going by the Live register figures, there's over 380,000 reasons to oust these criminals.

Wouldn't be great if there were ejector seats under Fianna Fail arses in the Dail.(Or whoever is in power) Seems democratic to me.

Daithinski

redvictoria wrote: »

Can you show any evidence that any of the others are any different?

Have you any evidence that any other party has done this

FF failing to declare large corporate donations



Click on the link to read how FF aren't declaring illegal donations from their supposedly now bankrupt builder buddies.

Daithinski

juuge wrote: »

It's amazing that for the past year we have been told how Brian Cowen has a great intellect, an inquiring mind, a man of great ability, a cunning mentality, highly principled and a great wit!
We're waiting!
No - Sorry Brian your time is up! Next!

I remember someone telling me when Cowen took over that "he looks like cider, but is really champagne"

Replace champagne with p!ss and you would be getting close.

Poor_old_gill

I agree FF have to go as they have not shown any ability to deal with the current situation.
Its like they're having a public brainstorming session- we'll just keep throwing out ideas and see which ones dont meet with too much anger and we will formulate our policy from this.
Its hilarious, its like a comedy sketch but the only problem is we are losing our jobs and houses.
The worst part to all of this is I think that with the economic downturn and seriously shoddy policies that have been attempted to remedy it- we stand on the verge of serious civil unrest.
For years the young people of Ireland who couldnt get jobs would have gone abroad to do so but this isnt the case as much now- jobs are drying up everywhere. this will leave a whole generation of angry young men/women- it has the potential to boil over.

As for a change of government- FG doesnt offer a credible alternative.
They have some decent policies and I respect Bruton's knowledge of financial affairs but they just dont have it.
Kenny and Bruton dont have what it takes to lead a government- also the simple fact is FG have been throwing out policies that I dont think they can back up (but then again FF cant really use that as a stick to beat them).
The simple fact of the matter is our political system has been filled with clown and cronies for years. Fintan O Toole made a great point of needing to get rid of the cute ould hoore who would make sure you had a nice community centre in the parish.

We need to draw a distinction between local and national politics.
I am from south kerry and although Jackie healy rae is good for getting a few new roads down here- I honestly cant see him adding much to debate on how to help Irelands economy.

This brings me back to a previous point- a credible alternative.
I think a Labour and FG government would do alright but to be honest there would be as many clowns in there as is there is currently.

We need new parties- we are the most educated generation this country has produced yet anyone with an interest in politics slots into the old corrupt system-time for a change people

Darragh29

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

We need to draw a distinction between local and national politics.
I am from south kerry and although Jackie healy rae is good for getting a few new roads down here- I honestly cant see him adding much to debate on how to help Irelands economy.

What use is a new road to you when you have no job???

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

This brings me back to a previous point- a credible alternative.
I think a Labour and FG government would do alright but to be honest there would be as many clowns in there as is there is currently.

We need new parties- we are the most educated generation this country has produced yet anyone with an interest in politics slots into the old corrupt system-time for a change people

I couldn't agree more with you. I fu*king HATE FF, but I know FG and/or Labour would offer absolutely no better alternative. They are all the same, fundamentally detached from reality after a lifetime of living in a civil servant bubble.

The minute any of these party leaders get up on their feet to talk, the second they start talking, you hear the same politically coded bullsh*t coming from all of them. Whether it's Enda Kenny or Eamon Gilmore, the same language of barely concealed indifference is evident from them all.

And the sad thing is that a lot of people think that we only have a big economic problem here to sort out. We also have a major problem with crime, not just gandland stuff but anti-social behaviour is affecting more people than any other crime heading these days.

There is definitely a need for a new political party in this country. And the weird thing is, people in this country don't really have a big ask here, all people want from what I can see is:

(1) A secure job or a secure enough employment market,

(2) A relatively safe and peaceful place to live in, affordable housing and safe and peaceful housing estates.

(3) A decent education system for kids and,

(4) A decent health system for if you or your family have health issues.

Now under every one of the four headings above, an absolute and utter BALLS is being made with regard to the delivery of these services. There you have it under 4 headings, I mean how hard can it be???

Poor_old_gill

Darragh with regard to the new road comment- I was taking the mick!
What I was getting at is that someone like JHR is a county politician with no use on the national stage at all.

The system of nepotism is also fairly annoying but what can you do eh!

We need a new party- we need brains and initiative to come to the fore- I'll be doing my masters in economics next year so anyone whos up for it- count me in!!:D

givyjoe81

redvictoria wrote: »

Biffo and the banks didnt force anyone to buy rental properties and new cars, they couldn't afford just to keep up with the Jones. Let's have the maturity to take the consequences of our own decisions.

Eh so FF should show the same maturity shouldnt they? Like helping to create the housing bubble and doing sweet fa about it, helping to directly cause the severity of the economic downturn? Havent heard them take any responsilbility for anything negative so far.

Have they taken responsibility for the banks still not loaning to solvent viable business's despite bailing them out?

Rebelheart

Only 10 reasons?

The big problem is not getting Fianna Fáil out; it is about convincing a sufficient number of people that there is an actual alternative to replace them.

At the moment that alternative most certainly does not exist. The excuses for an alternative that do exist are distinguished more by being variations of the mé féiner back-slapping Fianna Fáil policies. There is still no European-style alternative government, one that promotes environmental issues, social justice and so much more. All political parties in this state - that is, without exception - shape their policies on what happens over in Britain. France, Germany and the Scandinavian countries all have much more to inspire this society now, much, much more.

Given this abject lack of alternative among the Irish parties, I would prefer to have Fianna Fáil in government paying the price every day for their obscene policies (environmental policies in particular hang them in my view) since 1997. Why anybody would want to let them off the hook is beyond me. They need to be pillioried every day. My sole regret is that Bertie Ahern is gone off into the sunset living on numerous pensions (and lord knows what else) leaving Cowen alone to take the flack.

When a political party exists in this state that can look beyond Mother England for its policies, please let me know.

gazzer

Rebelheart wrote: »

My sole regret is that Bertie Ahern is gone off into the sunset living on numerous pensions (and lord knows what else) leaving Cowen alone to take the flack.

My one consolation with Bertie the CNUT is that he looks like he has aged 20 years in the last year. I saw him on tv a couple of times in the last few days and he looks dreadful. He looks like he put a bucket of Max Factor over his face and his whole demenour looks sour. I hate the man with a passion and i pray that one day he will pay for the damage he done to this country.

SEPT 23 1989

gazzer wrote: »

My one consolation with Bertie the CNUT is that he looks like he has aged 20 years in the last year. I saw him on tv a couple of times in the last few days and he looks dreadful. He looks like he put a bucket of Max Factor over his face and his whole demenour looks sour. I hate the man with a passion and i pray that one day he will pay for the damage he done to this country.

he looks like a broken man now which is all the crook deserves

ilkhanid

Why stop at 10,indeed.

11. Voting machines
12. Decentralisation
13. Gutting the freedom of Information Act
14.Benchmarking

to be continued...

Daithinski

gazzer wrote: »

My one consolation with Bertie the CNUT is that he looks like he has aged 20 years in the last year. I saw him on tv a couple of times in the last few days and he looks dreadful. He looks like he put a bucket of Max Factor over his face and his whole demenour looks sour. I hate the man with a passion and i pray that one day he will pay for the damage he done to this country.

Thats what happens to a man when he doesn't have the taxpayer footing the bill for his 30 grand a year make-up habit.

The article (linked above) re berties maek up was written in feb 2007 ends with this funny little statement

It's well we've a property boom and that we're still net beneficiaries of the EU budget.

Ho ho ho.

jmayo

Rebelheart wrote: »

Only 10 reasons?

The big problem is not getting Fianna Fáil out; it is about convincing a sufficient number of people that there is an actual alternative to replace them.

... There is still no European-style alternative government, one that promotes environmental issues, social justice and so much more. All political parties in this state - that is, without exception - shape their policies on what happens over in Britain. France, Germany and the Scandinavian countries all have much more to inspire this society now, much, much more.

Given this abject lack of alternative among the Irish parties, I would prefer to have Fianna Fáil in government paying the price every day for their obscene policies (environmental policies in particular hang them in my view) since 1997. Why anybody would want to let them off the hook is beyond me. They need to be pillioried every day. My sole regret is that Bertie Ahern is gone off into the sunset living on numerous pensions (and lord knows what else) leaving Cowen alone to take the flack.

When a political party exists in this state that can look beyond Mother England for its policies, please let me know.

I thought the Greens promoted environmental issues or perhaps you are looking for a party that actually promotes them when they get into power

So until a party that you deem fitting your European style alternative arrives, you are going to leave the current useless shower in power :rolleyes:
Of course you want us to pilliory them everyday, that would be everyday where they sink us more and more into the quagmire and doom our children nevermind ourselves to decades of destitution.

And we wonder why they get in, ride us into poverty and yet remain in power :mad:
As long as we have voters like you we are doomed to FF and them screwing us. :mad::mad:

gazzer wrote: »

My one consolation with Bertie the CNUT is that he looks like he has aged 20 years in the last year. I saw him on tv a couple of times in the last few days and he looks dreadful. He looks like he put a bucket of Max Factor over his face and his whole demenour looks sour. I hate the man with a passion and i pray that one day he will pay for the damage he done to this country.

Jeeze didn't you know the taxpayer is no longer paying for his makeup and makeup artist bills :rolleyes:
He can only now afford the normal over the BT counter stuff.

Liam Byrne

jmayo wrote: »

He can only now afford the normal over the BT counter stuff.

A quick trip to Manchester or a "flutter on the horses" should sort that out for him......

ilkhanid

15. The Statutory Rape debacle.
16. The alacrity with which Beverly Flynn was allowed back in
17. "Blasphemous Libel" courtesy of Dermot Ahern
18. The way FF let the bishops get off with paying such a derisory compensation and left us, the taxpayers to foot the bill for their wrongdoing.
19.The arrogance with which they reacted to the National Gallery prank
20. again...the arrogance with which Cowen refused to accept any-any-responsibility for things going pear shaped. Not even a little, not a jot, not an iota. None.:mad:

to be continued....

Joxer71

You make some good points but your post is about as balanced as an Irish Independent FG propaganda column.

I voted Green last time round and I probably will again as I look at the opposition benches and despair. What is really needed is a national government as the opposition has not come up with any alternatives policy.

To balance your comments with some others..

1. Fianna Fail is inherently a corrupt party and although the two most prominent members (Cowen and Lenihan are both competent and honest) the party relies on a network of cronyism, corruption and shady dealings through its network of nationwide members. Dont forget this is the party of Haughey, Ahern and Lawlor, three men that are no more than suited gangsters

None of the people you name are in government. It is generally considered by balanced commentators that Ahern was clean but hounded out of office by media. Haughey and Lawlor were on the take but so were Fitzgerald, Coveney and other members of FG. Also, Labour contains very suspect characters from ex-Democratic Left/SWP.


2. Fianna Fail led the country to its most accute economic downturn in the history of the state, because they had a cosy relationship with property developers and bankers and preside over a country with almost zero regulation. The over reliance on property meant our recession was much more accute than what other countries are experiencing right now.

The same sleight can be thrown at any current government in Europe. This is a worldwide crisis and not specific to Ireland. Without property and property developers there would have been no Celtic tiger. Better to have love and lost then not to have loved at all. Where the banks in the greatest economy of all, the USA, regulated? Where the banks in the UK, Iceland regulated??


3. They are taking action to resolve the economic crisis two years too late and indeed should have had more prudent policies to preserve growth over the long term and reduce spending DURING the boom times.

FG is calling for MORE spending. Should we vote them in? You don't cut spending in a boom you invest in infrastructure, hence all of the new roads, LUAS and M50 upgrade. You cannot preserve growth when you have a worldwide global recession. Ireland's problem is that we don't have indigenous industry that we can fall back on.


4. During ten years of incredible economic growth we are still left with a 3rd world health system and transport infrastructure and first world prices. Where did the money all GO?

Unions???? Unsustainable wages fuelled by greed and who lead the charge, the unions i.e. the Labour Party. Example, it has taken four years to get greedy consultants backed by their union to agree to new contracts. Flashback 15 years and compare Dublin city to that back then. Massive invenstment in IFSC, luas, dart upgrades, new stations, QBCs, M50 upgrades, new roads, M1, M3, M4 aroun city alone.


5. Fianna Fail as a party serves the needs of the rich including the developers, horse breeders, auctioneers and bankers. They do not serve the interests of the common man who pays his taxes and works an honest day. It is now that this backbone of the Irish economy finally deserve to have their interests met by a political party.

What party are you canvassing for here?? FG never served the working class man. This is the party that put a tax on children's shoes and was always synonymous with the legal and accountancy professions. Unions backed by Labour have brought wage bills to a critical high, fuelling cost of living and forcing companies to outsource to eastern europe and India with the loss of jobs. The same unions have paralysed the public sectorw here reforms cannot be introduced with Liam Doran and Co again backed by Labour threatening strike.


6. Compared to the Green Party and Fiana Gael, Fianna Fail have not devised as of yet a long term strategy to deliver jobs and growth to this country and are 100% focused on fire fighting an accute property based recession (and throwing money into a fire regards bank capitilisation and the healthcare system), they lack long term vision.

Without recap 3 Irish banks would have gone under within 2 days of the decision to back with state funds. At the time Ireland won plaudits from all over Europe for this move. The priority is obviously to prop up the finances and this is coming thanks to the aggressive tax changes announced in Oct (Dec Budget), Feb (Pension Levy) and Mar (Supp Budget). I have seen no long term vision or even party policy to address the situation from the opposition benches. I've even seen a FG candidate suggesting that he would electrify the Maynooth rail line if voted in. Where is he getting the money from? This is up there with Gay Mitchell's Ireland will host the olympics in 10 yrs. What planet are these people on?


7. Ireland needs a fundemental change in attitudes and needs to adopt a more social, conservative, consciencence and prudent model of governance similar to France & Germany. This needs to come from the top down through governmental policy.

Hear hear. A mixture of centre and left wing policy.

8. Ireland needs now to invest in infrastructure, health care and green industry to create and sustain growth and in the process create jobs and finally create a lasting legacy in regards health & transport. Instead they are battening down the hatches with higher taxes and increased VAT, reducing spending & destroying consumer confidence

Where is the money coming from? One thing the present government has not been shy in doing is throwing money into health, a criminal amount of money that has either been mismanaged or gobbled up by greedy unions in wage agreements for already overpaid health sector workers. Definitelty need more investment in green energy and the greens are deliverying on this and will get my vote at next election.

9. There is a strong danger Irish people over time will forget how this party have brought us to the brink of bankruptcy and now constantly repeating their message of 'tough decisions'. The reality is these decisions should have been made 5 - 10 years ago

When the country was booming??? I don't think so. If you predict doom for long enough eventually you will be right as this is the basis of the econmic cycle, peak followed by recession followed by peak. Just ask George Lee who apparently "predicted" the recession. Ask him for a solution though and stunned silence.

10. Fianna Fail to this day has never apolgised or shown any remorse for the situation we find ourselves in. Party members had their pockets lined through cosy jobs (chairing commissions, the seanad, junior ministers etc) and party affiliates also as they got access to easy cash from banks, shady land re-zoning and tax breaks. Where as the common man like you and me are facing reduced job prospects, loss of earning and tax increases.

Presumably the opposition don't chair commissions or have seanad members. Interesting to see Mairead McGuinness unwilling to disclose her MEP expenses. What is she hiding? Pocket lining is not exclsuive to any one party. They are all at it.

Where to go next? Fiana Gael have devised impressive and focussed plans around health care and transport. This would create jobs and finally give us the transport and health care infrastructure we deserve. I also believe as Fiana Gael have spectated these unparalled time of greed and growth they have learnt through Fianna Fail mistakes how not to govern and they are also closer to the electorate and understand their needs better. For example Fiana Gael introduced the donations policy while seeing the general unrest in the county at Fianna Fails dubious fund raising activities.

Ah here we go the party political broadcast. It had to come eventually. FG's Health spokesperson is a fruitcake, Dr James Reilly. Were not FG employees tax dodging when it was found that they were paying staff cash in hand. This is a criminal offence. FG have no policies and are relying on cheap publicity through selection of "celebrities" such as George Lee and Sean Kelly, an obvious smokescreen to hide lack of policy substance.


The Green Party if remaining in power could put this country at the forefront of the green industry which could quite possibly become a long term and sustainble growth industry.

Hear hear. Vote green!

It looks like we wont have a general election any time soon, but I hope for everyones sake we can remember why Fianna Fail need to be removed from power.

I'm looking at the opposition benches and I see no policies, no answers, lots of hot air, no potential taoiseach and one minister, Richard Bruton. God help us if this is the alternative!!

redvictoria

While I agree with most of what you said Joxer71, I think your looking at it through green tinted spectacles. The Greens only claim to fame as I see it, is John Gormley riding his bike to the Dail while his car is driven behind him. And then theres the mess they made of the car industry with the introduction of their green taxes last July.

Definately a party political brodcast.

Daithinski

Joxer71 wrote: »

You make some good points but your post is about as balanced as an Irish Independent FG propaganda column.... snip

Hear hear. Vote green!


I'm looking at the opposition benches and I see no policies, no answers, lots of hot air, no potential taoiseach and one minister, Richard Bruton. God help us if this is the alternative!!

Interesting, somebody pretending to be impartial (green voter) while really being a rabid FF supporter.

It looks like we wont have a general election any time soon, but I hope for everyones sake we can remember why Fianna Fail need to be removed from power.

But using the old FF canvassers tactic of "sure theres no better alternative...

I'm looking at the opposition benches and I see no policies, no answers, lots of hot air, no potential taoiseach and one minister, Richard Bruton. God help us if this is the alternative!!

Have the sneaky FF canvassers no shame.

jmayo

Joxer71 wrote: »

You make some good points but your post is about as balanced as an Irish Independent FG propaganda column.

I voted Green last time round and I probably will again as I look at the opposition benches and despair. What is really needed is a national government as the opposition has not come up with any alternatives policy.

To balance your comments with some others..

1. Fianna Fail is inherently a corrupt party and although the two most prominent members (Cowen and Lenihan are both competent and honest) the party relies on a network of cronyism, corruption and shady dealings through its network of nationwide members. Dont forget this is the party of Haughey, Ahern and Lawlor, three men that are no more than suited gangsters

As Daithinski pointed out a party political broadcast by a soldier of desentry.
And a long winded one at that, dressed up as supposedly objective thoughts from a green voter :rolleyes:

"(Cowen and Lenihan are both competent and honest)" :rolleyes:
I think over 80 % of the population disagree with that statement, at least the competent portion of it anyway.
The jury is out on the honest portion seening how certain banks have been rescued at great cost to the taxpayer.

I almost gave up reading this tripe after that gem, and finally did after the next party political rant.

Joxer71 wrote: »

... It is generally considered by balanced commentators that Ahern was clean but hounded out of office by media. Haughey and Lawlor were on the take but so were Fitzgerald, Coveney and other members of FG. Also, Labour contains very suspect characters from ex-Democratic Left/SWP.

Would the balanced commentators include Eoin Harris by any chance :rolleyes:
Nice the way you admit that Huaghey and Lawlor were on the take seen as it is probably indisputable at this point.

PS you forgot to mention the major high ranking jailbird minister RAY BURKE, Councillor Stroke Fahy, Padraig and Bevelry Flynn, Denis Foley, Killarney Mayor Patrick O'Donoghue and God knows how many more that don't reach the news.

is_that_so

Joxer71 wrote: »

You make some good points but your post is about as balanced as an Irish Independent FG propaganda column.

I voted Green last time round and I probably will again as I look at the opposition benches and despair. What is really needed is a national government as the opposition has not come up with any alternatives policy.

So you have no objection to their volte face or the Trevor Sargeant stroke or their impotence in Government or the fact that every "Green" initiative involves Eamon Ryan showing up claiming credit or that John Gormley thinks we're angry and chastises us or even that strange Mary White woman?

Joxer71 wrote: »

To balance your comments with some others..

1. Fianna Fail is inherently a corrupt party and although the two most prominent members (Cowen and Lenihan are both competent and honest) the party relies on a network of cronyism, corruption and shady dealings through its network of nationwide members. Dont forget this is the party of Haughey, Ahern and Lawlor, three men that are no more than suited gangsters

None of the people you name are in government. It is generally considered by balanced commentators that Ahern was clean but hounded out of office by media. Haughey and Lawlor were on the take but so were Fitzgerald, Coveney and other members of FG. Also, Labour contains very suspect characters from ex-Democratic Left/SWP.

Yes this is perennial favourite;the "they're all at it" scattergun approach to measuring relative wrongdoing. Aside from Lawlor and Haughey some real evidence would be good.

I suggest some serious denial here if you can't see that B Ahern was doing things he should not have been in his position. I'd also hazard a guess that you would be dubious about Labour anyway despite the fact that your hero saw them as the preferred coalition partners.

Joxer71 wrote: »

2. Fianna Fail led the country to its most accute economic downturn in the history of the state, because they had a cosy relationship with property developers and bankers and preside over a country with almost zero regulation. The over reliance on property meant our recession was much more accute than what other countries are experiencing right now.

The same sleight can be thrown at any current government in Europe. This is a worldwide crisis and not specific to Ireland. Without property and property developers there would have been no Celtic tiger. Better to have love and lost then not to have loved at all. Where the banks in the greatest economy of all, the USA, regulated? Where the banks in the UK, Iceland regulated??

The word is slight meaning insult or affront, although the word sleight meaning trick is appropriate to FF and McCreevy.
You see the Govt had it in its power to rein back on the other part of the equation , the humble greedy citizen but chose not to. In fact they encouraged us. Yet again I see nothing concrete in your defence here and it sounds an awful lot like the script FF are reading us at present.

Joxer71 wrote: »

3. They are taking action to resolve the economic crisis two years too late and indeed should have had more prudent policies to preserve growth over the long term and reduce spending DURING the boom times.
FG is calling for MORE spending. Should we vote them in? You don't cut spending in a boom you invest in infrastructure, hence all of the new roads, LUAS and M50 upgrade. You cannot preserve growth when you have a worldwide global recession. Ireland's problem is that we don't have indigenous industry that we can fall back on.

Yes your name could be McCreevy. "If I have it I'll spend it". Franco's solution to Spanish unemployment was to create more civil servants. That said it is the injudicious spending that has got us into this mess and large on that list is benchmarking 1 & 2 for which Mr Consensus holds a lot of the blame.

Joxer71 wrote: »

4. During ten years of incredible economic growth we are still left with a 3rd world health system and transport infrastructure and first world prices. Where did the money all GO?

Unions???? Unsustainable wages fuelled by greed and who lead the charge, the unions i.e. the Labour Party. Example, it has taken four years to get greedy consultants backed by their union to agree to new contracts. Flashback 15 years and compare Dublin city to that back then. Massive invenstment in IFSC, luas, dart upgrades, new stations, QBCs, M50 upgrades, new roads, M1, M3, M4 aroun city alone.

You can't lump the IFSC into that at all. It's been around a very long time.

Joxer71 wrote: »

5. Fianna Fail as a party serves the needs of the rich including the developers, horse breeders, auctioneers and bankers. They do not serve the interests of the common man who pays his taxes and works an honest day. It is now that this backbone of the Irish economy finally deserve to have their interests met by a political party.

What party are you canvassing for here?? FG never served the working class man. This is the party that put a tax on children's shoes and was always synonymous with the legal and accountancy professions. Unions backed by Labour have brought wage bills to a critical high, fuelling cost of living and forcing companies to outsource to eastern europe and India with the loss of jobs. The same unions have paralysed the public sectorw here reforms cannot be introduced with Liam Doran and Co again backed by Labour threatening strike.

You really do have a selective memory and this ties into your Stickie comments above. In fact I will use the word rambling. How are Labour behind strikes and the collapse of companies? What have accountants got to do with FG? Who's paralysing anything?

Joxer71 wrote: »

6. Compared to the Green Party and Fiana Gael, Fianna Fail have not devised as of yet a long term strategy to deliver jobs and growth to this country and are 100% focused on fire fighting an accute property based recession (and throwing money into a fire regards bank capitilisation and the healthcare system), they lack long term vision.

Without recap 3 Irish banks would have gone under within 2 days of the decision to back with state funds. At the time Ireland won plaudits from all over Europe for this move. The priority is obviously to prop up the finances and this is coming thanks to the aggressive tax changes announced in Oct (Dec Budget), Feb (Pension Levy) and Mar (Supp Budget). I have seen no long term vision or even party policy to address the situation from the opposition benches. I've even seen a FG candidate suggesting that he would electrify the Maynooth rail line if voted in. Where is he getting the money from? This is up there with Gay Mitchell's Ireland will host the olympics in 10 yrs. What planet are these people on?

Yeah yet again a bit of blindness and not an awful lot of truth here. Joan Burton did take the populist line but FG were fully behind the idea.

Joxer71 wrote: »

7. Ireland needs a fundemental change in attitudes and needs to adopt a more social, conservative, consciencence and prudent model of governance similar to France & Germany. This needs to come from the top down through governmental policy.

Hear hear. A mixture of centre and left wing policy.

And you think that FF have done any of this? How does this square with your anti-Labour, anti-union comments above? Aren't they left wing?

Joxer71 wrote: »

8. Ireland needs now to invest in infrastructure, health care and green industry to create and sustain growth and in the process create jobs and finally create a lasting legacy in regards health & transport. Instead they are battening down the hatches with higher taxes and increased VAT, reducing spending & destroying consumer confidence

Where is the money coming from? One thing the present government has not been shy in doing is throwing money into health, a criminal amount of money that has either been mismanaged or gobbled up by greedy unions in wage agreements for already overpaid health sector workers. Definitelty need more investment in green energy and the greens are deliverying on this and will get my vote at next election.

And now the health workers.
We don't need the Greens to do any of this. It has been forced upon us. The Greens will be much reduced in the next election, they may even disappear completely. Their pragmatism such as it is was for their day in the sun. Small parties have a limited lifespan in the sun and eventually fade away.

Joxer71 wrote: »

9. There is a strong danger Irish people over time will forget how this party have brought us to the brink of bankruptcy and now constantly repeating their message of 'tough decisions'. The reality is these decisions should have been made 5 - 10 years ago

When the country was booming??? I don't think so. If you predict doom for long enough eventually you will be right as this is the basis of the econmic cycle, peak followed by recession followed by peak. Just ask George Lee who apparently "predicted" the recession. Ask him for a solution though and stunned silence.

Now it's George Lee and economists' fault. Not entirely sure what you are trying to say in this.

Joxer71 wrote: »

10. Fianna Fail to this day has never apolgised or shown any remorse for the situation we find ourselves in. Party members had their pockets lined through cosy jobs (chairing commissions, the seanad, junior ministers etc) and party affiliates also as they got access to easy cash from banks, shady land re-zoning and tax breaks. Where as the common man like you and me are facing reduced job prospects, loss of earning and tax increases.

Presumably the opposition don't chair commissions or have seanad members. Interesting to see Mairead McGuinness unwilling to disclose her MEP expenses. What is she hiding? Pocket lining is not exclsuive to any one party. They are all at it.

And here we go again. This is not debate. At this stage it is a pure rant.

Joxer71 wrote: »

Where to go next? Fiana Gael have devised impressive and focussed plans around health care and transport. This would create jobs and finally give us the transport and health care infrastructure we deserve. I also believe as Fiana Gael have spectated these unparalled time of greed and growth they have learnt through Fianna Fail mistakes how not to govern and they are also closer to the electorate and understand their needs better. For example Fiana Gael introduced the donations policy while seeing the general unrest in the county at Fianna Fails dubious fund raising activities.

Ah here we go the party political broadcast. It had to come eventually. FG's Health spokesperson is a fruitcake, Dr James Reilly. Were not FG employees tax dodging when it was found that they were paying staff cash in hand. This is a criminal offence. FG have no policies and are relying on cheap publicity through selection of "celebrities" such as George Lee and Sean Kelly, an obvious smokescreen to hide lack of policy substance.


The Green Party if remaining in power could put this country at the forefront of the green industry which could quite possibly become a long term and sustainble growth industry.

Hear hear. Vote green!

It looks like we wont have a general election any time soon, but I hope for everyones sake we can remember why Fianna Fail need to be removed from power.

I'm looking at the opposition benches and I see no policies, no answers, lots of hot air, no potential taoiseach and one minister, Richard Bruton. God help us if this is the alternative!!

And then I just gave up on the rest of it. You might as well have used this last comment as your starting point. While you obviously have a position, little of it offers anything constructive beyond that you want it left wing and green.

juuge

Just to show the calibre of our politicians and how they can lie through their teeth so easily - Eoin Ryan on RTE last night denied that Fianna Fail posters shows their logo reduced in size! - So we're all imagining it !
Maybe we're imagining the whole thing! - Fianna Fail are NOT corrupt! and 23% of the population that vote for them are not gobsh**ites!

Boggle

Joxer71 wrote:

You make some good points but your post is about as balanced as an Irish Independent FG propaganda column.

I voted Green last time round and I probably will again as I look at the opposition benches and despair. What is really needed is a national government as the opposition has not come up with any alternatives policy.

To balance your comments with some others..

1. Fianna Fail is inherently a corrupt party and although the two most prominent members (Cowen and Lenihan are both competent and honest) the party relies on a network of cronyism, corruption and shady dealings through its network of nationwide members. Dont forget this is the party of Haughey, Ahern and Lawlor, three men that are no more than suited gangsters

None of the people you name are in government. It is generally considered by balanced commentators that Ahern was clean but hounded out of office by media...

I made it that far before I decided your input to the thread is irrelevant and that you are incapable of balanced discussion.

Bertie "I won it on a horse m'lord!!" Ahearne was clean? The same guy who threw OUR money at every bump and appointed buddies to state positions, just to make himself look good?!?

I mean ffs Cowen?? - the guy in charge of finance the past few years and who lead us head first into a brick wall is your idea of competence?!?

The only thing I hope is that FF stay in power for the next few months until the december (hatchet) budget and that they (along with their apologists) get wiped out so badly that they, and their way of politics, are wiped out forever.
And then if FG, Labour or anyone else dares to try and spoof the electorate, we may finally have copped onto how to deal with them.