So What Exactly Makes the Gaelscoileanna So Good (Or are they all Actually?)

ytareh

It seems to me as a secondary teacher that Gaelscoileanna seem to be without exception darn near faultless.Basically all tight ran ships that the kids love attending and get great results at .Im curious on a professional level (and as Im thinking of sending my little one to a primary gaelscoil)WHAT is it that sets them apart ?(Maybe we could import a bit of it into our school/s.
Id be interested to hear any reflections although obviously not that "Gaelscoil X is useless" .Obvious 'issues' that I can envisage are integration of non nationals and learning the english words for technical/scientific terms ...Go raibh maith agat!

spurious

I think it mostly boils down to widespread and consistent parental involvement in the education of their children and support for the staff of the school.

Enright

Inclned to agree with spurious, personally i think it goes a little deeper, gaelscoileanna have imo hired young dymanic principals and young enthuastic teachers who give freely of their time. The staff have a younger age profile from other primary schools, and as such they have a can do attitude.

Younger staff have imo better attitudes to green issues.

Allowing the daltai to call you muniteoir "maire" help establish a bond which enhances education.

Gaelscoileanna are not the traditional choice for parents, they are usually newly established and in prefabs, but nevertheless parents are choosing them, there sucess has a lot to do with the dynamics of willing teachers, energy and parents who support the schools and their activities

byhookorbycrook

Children who do not have English as a first language are often sent to English speaking schools to learn English, Irish would not be a priority to many of their parents. however children with a good command of English can and do do well with a 3rd language! As to terms,all subjects have a particular glossary and this is absorbed as part of the language learning. Children don't think "We're doing history terms now".

As to what Gaelscoileanna "have":
Teachers who chose to work in a Gaelscoil will have a love and enthuasism for Irish which they pass on to the children.

Studies show the learning through a second language makes it easier for children to learn a third or fourth language later.


Although literacy skills in English may be slower at the start, studies show that Gaelscoil children will be equal or out-perform their English-school counterparts by 6th class.

Terri26

Although literacy skills in English may be slower at the start, studies show that Gaelscoil children will be equal or out-perform their English-school counterparts by 6th class.[/quote]


hi - can you direct me to these studies (not being smart but I am really interested). I teach in a school which takes a good few students from the local (excellent apparently) gs and with the exception of our top stream students a large majority of them really struggle with English. it was only when I went to teh year ahead about basic problems some students were having taht we made teh connection they had attended the gaelscoil. obviously their Irish is ahead of most the class but they are struggling in EnGLISH

byhookorbycrook

http://www.gaelscoileanna.ie/index.php?page=news&action=view_item&news_id=116 is one. Dónal ó hAiniféin did another, must see if I can find a link.

byhookorbycrook

http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/28167

In my opinion

spurious wrote: »

I think it mostly boils down to widespread and consistent parental involvement in the education of their children and support for the staff of the school.

No doubt about it. Middle class parents with full support for education in addition to good energetic staff. That said I think most primary teachers are dedicated.

oh well

In 1st year of an english secondary school, it is easy to tell who came from a gaelscoil or english primary school. Not because of their great Irish, unfortunately its because of their use of english in the written answers required of them. In a gaelscoil primary, children will not have the experience of answering the essay type questions required for History, Geography, CSPE, etc etc. It is from using the language and gaining experience in the writing of it, that they will become fluent in its use. In primary school, their use of english is limited to the actual english class. Irrespective of a child who reads alot, it is still their lower level of actual writing experience that can hold them back.

I had heard of this from 2 secondary school principals before I saw it for myself. The students will pick up but unfortunately for some, it can just be another hurdle transferring to secondary school if they are not continuing to a gaelcolaiste.

Terri26 - I hadn't read your full reply when I typed my own reply. seems we are both saying the same thing.

IIMII

Oh, I don't know about that. I spent my first few years in a Gaelscoil, did 2nd & 3rd in an English school and from then on was back in the Gaelscoil system. I found the standard of reading quite low in English when I first entered the English speaking school, and was very surprised at that the school being more lax, with very little homework etc. Fast forward beyond second level and the Irish speaking environment didn't do me much harm in relation to English - I went on to study Old, Middle & Modern English as a single subject in UCD for my sins.

Regarding the supposed middle-class element of the Gaelscoileanna, that is not accurate. Just take a look at the number of schools and colleges from Tallaght through Clondalkin to Lucan. What may really be the case here is that parents that care enough about educating their children bi-lingually, may have greater degrees of interest in their children's education to begin with.

When you enrol your child in a Gaelscoil, you are gifting your child bi-lingualism. That in itself, and the ability to learn and think in 2 languages is in no doubt a help in learning generally, and adds an extra edge in terms of knowlege and ability that he or she might not have developed otherwise

bushy...

IIMII wrote: »

When you enrol your child in a Gaelscoil, you are gifting your child bi-lingualism. That in itself, and the ability to learn and think in 2 languages is in no doubt a help in learning generally, and adds an extra edge in terms of knowlege and ability that he or she might not have developed otherwise

To give them even more of an edge substitute German ( for example) for Irish. Much better advantage.

Toto Wolfcastle

I went to an English-speaking primary school and and Irish-speaking secondary school. I found that the children who had attended gaelscoileanna fell behind while those who didn't, for the most part, flourished. The fact that the children from gaelscoileanna were now mixed with children with little Irish made a huge difference. However, everyone caught up to where they were meant to be after the first year.

byhookorbycrook

Groundbreaking research demonstrates underlying advantages of Irish-medium Education*.


Recent research carried out by Dr Judith Wylie and Dr Gerry Mulhern from
Queen’s University Belfast’s School of Psychology has indicated that there
are significant underlying advantages to children who are being educated in Irish-medium Schools. Aside from the obvious cultural and social benefits of bilingualism, their research shows that there are real cognitive gainsfrom being bilingual. The research – the first of its kind involving the
Irish-medium sector – looks at ‘short term memory’ and ‘working memory’
performance in primary school children.



Dr Wylie explained, “Short memory and working memory are centrally important
in all learning, indeed everyday tasks such as reading, reasoning and mental
arithmetic rely heavily on these processes. Using standardised tests of
verbal and visual memory, our research compared groups of children from
Irish-medium schools with children from the more usual English-only schools
in Northern Ireland.”



Results indicated that children who attended Irish-medium schools
significantly outperformed those from the English-medium sector. On
average, 8-year-old and 10-year-old children from Irish-medium schools were
found to outperform children of a similar age from English-only
schools. However
the most dramatic finding was that 8-year-old Irish-medium children
performed at least as well as, and in several areas better than,
10-year-olds from English-only schools.



Dr Réamaí Mathers from Iontaobhas na Gaelscolaíochta (The Trust For
Irish-medium Education) welcomed this news saying, “ This groundbreaking
work adds further evidence to the increasingly indisputable body of good
science that shows that children who are educated in Irish-medium schools
are not only receiving the benefit of two languages but are also receiving
tangible educational advantages. Earlier this year, Key Stage 2 assessments
(Primary 7), which focus on the areas of English and maths, demonstrated
that for the last three years attainment in Irish-medium education has been
higher than the Northern Ireland average. What the Queen’s research
provides is a deeper insight into the mechanisms at work in the superior
performance by Irish-medium children when compared to the more usual English
language schools.”



Dr Mathers continued, “This research is another affirmation for our schools
not only in their role in the revival of our indigenous language but,
because of the deep functional mental processes involved in bilingualism,
their role as centres of excellence in education. Irish-medium education is
providing children with the highest levels of attainment. Indeed, so
compelling is this educational case, that the argument for the ongoing and
increased support for the sector at nursery, primary and post-primary level
is more compelling than ever.


Website: www.iontaobhasnag.com

or www.thetrustforirishmediumeducation.com

Rosita

I'm not sure this quite nails the argument from a cause and effect perspective. Kids from gaelscoileanna might out-perform others in tests but is it because they attend gaelscoileanna per se, or is it because they might tend to come from backgrounds where education is fostered more anyway. The point being - would these children also be above average in any other school? That is the impossible thing to prove and is a weakness in the argument being made by that research.

kingkev100

i dont think these "i.r.a. doctrinated anti protestant extreme neo catholic" gaelscoileanna are above any other well run school. that the kids like going to school , as some here claim, is more a reflection of thier parents instilling the value of education and respect towards their school rather that the school themselves. staff get paid the same rate regardless of what school they are in.
also, what these people always leave out is that, and very unfairly, theyget an extra 10% on top of their marks in the leaving cert compared to any other school... why i don't know as they have chosen to learn through irish so why they get bonus marks seems very illogical and unfair.
to sum up, any school is good if the child works, the parents care and the teachers care. it is not the type of school but the type of child and parents. imho, protestant and catholic fee paying schools are better any way, in terms of grades, all round education and willingness to acknowledge other religions and cultures... not just the catholic one in irish schools

Toto Wolfcastle

kingkev100 wrote: »

i dont think these "i.r.a. doctrinated anti protestant extreme neo catholic" gaelscoileanna are above any other well run school. that the kids like going to school , as some here claim, is more a reflection of thier parents instilling the value of education and respect towards their school rather that the school themselves. staff get paid the same rate regardless of what school they are in.
also, what these people always leave out is that, and very unfairly, theyget an extra 10% on top of their marks in the leaving cert compared to any other school... why i don't know as they have chosen to learn through irish so why they get bonus marks seems very illogical and unfair.
to sum up, any school is good if the child works, the parents care and the teachers care. it is not the type of school but the type of child and parents. imho, protestant and catholic fee paying schools are better any way, in terms of grades, all round education and willingness to acknowledge other religions and cultures... not just the catholic one in irish schools

Read up on the bonus mark system for doing your LC in Irish. I think you will find that students don't just get a bonus 10% on top of their marks. I did my LC through Irish and with or without the bonus marks I would have received the same amount of points. It made no difference to me.

kingkev100

i have done my research on leaving cert through irish... i correst it for god's sake!
all students who answer through irish get a 10% bonus of the marks that they didn't get and this bonus for answering through irish, even though you chose to, is completely unfair!
for example, you answer your history exam through irish and get 62%... c2. then the bonus is (100 - 62 = 38. 10 % of 38 = 3.8%... this is rounded up to 4%) add 4% to 62% and get 66%... this makes a grade of c1 and therefore more points!!
more points for simply answering through the language that you chose to is so unfair on those that answer through english and this bonus system should stop

Micilin Muc

When I did the Leaving Cert through Irish, the bonus was 10% of the mark you didn't get.

For example:
I got 63%.
100-63=27
10% of 27= 2.7
63+2.7=65.7%

This compensation is negligent compared to the advantage that I have as a bilingual. Being bilingual means that learning a third, fourth or even a fifth language is a lot easier than it would be if I were monolingual.

If I had a cent for every person that told me that I'm lucky to know Irish ...

Micilin Muc

kingkev100 wrote: »

more points for simply answering through the language that you chose to is so unfair on those that answer through english and this bonus system should stop

Not it's not and it shouldn't stop.

What's unfair about studying history through Irish when there isn't even a Leaving Cert history book in Irish? Half of 5th & 6th year is spent translating the book, never mind studying it. That's what part of the compensation is for.

kingkev100

Again, you chose to learn through irish.
that there were only books available through english is your problem and part of the choice you made. it doesn't mean you should be compensated with inflated grades... and therefore points... and therefore a college place at the expense of somebody who chose to learn through english.
good for you that you learned through irish, wrote through irish, spoke through irish.
good for you for making the choice to do this but to be given extra marks for this choice... sorry, but it is really unfair !

Micilin Muc

kingkev100 wrote: »

that there were only books available through english is your problem and part of the choice you made. it doesn't mean you should be compensated with inflated grades... and therefore points... and therefore a college place at the expense of somebody who chose to learn through english.

Bilinguals are better at academics than monolinguals. It's fair.

kingkev100 wrote: »

that there were only books available through english is your problem and part of the choice you made.

That's why there's compensation - so that people are incentivised to learn through Irish.

kingkev100 wrote: »

good for you that you learned through irish, wrote through irish, spoke through irish.

Thanks! I get that a lot.

Micilin Muc

kingkev100 wrote: »

good for you for making the choice to do this but to be given extra marks for this choice... sorry, but it is really unfair !

Life is full of incentives like this. If you're a teacher, you get a salary. If you're a teacher in a special school, you get a bonus on top of your salary. Why?

1. Because teaching in a special school is more difficult.
2. Because there's a lack of teachers with qualifications to teach in special schools and they'd like to attract more teachers to this area.

This compensation for doing the Leaving Cert exams in Irish is a good example for students to see that life is full of incentives.

gaeilgegrinds

I taught through Irish, much harder for the students. And most got sky high points anyway so the difference was so minute it made no difference. If people have such an issue with it why not avail of it? It is becoming so popular now to sit the Leaving through Irish, moreso, in my opinion, because of the level of Irish you have afterwards. Then you can go on to study through Irish in college and have much smaller classes!

Rosita

kingkev100 wrote: »

also, what these people always leave out is that, and very unfairly, theyget an extra 10% on top of their marks in the leaving cert compared to any other school... why i don't know as they have chosen to learn through irish so why they get bonus marks seems very illogical and unfair.

Perhaps the reason people leave this out is that it is irrelevant, or at best a separate argument. The information cited refers to assessments of the abilities of 8-10 year olds, so Leaving Cert doesn't come into it.

And the bonus marks certainly are not illogical - one presumes they are there to promote the Irish language which according to the constitution is the first national language. It is perfectly logical on that basis.

One could plausibly argue that it is unfair. An obvious counter-argument is that it is also state policy to 'unfairly' dicriminate in loads of other areas using various mechanisms - grants, taxation etc. - in order to pursue government policy and constitutional imperatives.

It might also be argued that it is unfair that the government funds fee-paying schools which are often argued to confer an advantage on students by virtue of class sizes and facilites, while simultaneously under-resourcing state schools. But there is the world of a difference between 'unfair' and 'illogical'.

Rosita

Micilin Muc wrote: »

Being bilingual means that learning a third, fourth or even a fifth language is a lot easier than it would be if I were monolingual.

Not being argumentative here but is there actual evidence for this? I studied Irish and English to degree level and teach English privately to foreigners and I find that there is in fact a lot of first and second language interference which can cause confusion.

It might be an advantage to know a language that is very similar to another, say, English/German, but I wonder if it can be genuinely said in the abstract that knowing a number of languages is an advantage with regard to picking up another. I wonder for example if knowing Spanish would give one an advantage in taking up Russian (two presumably unrelated languages)?

Micilin Muc

Rosita wrote: »

is there actual evidence for this?

For first level students, yes. Will post info when I get back to office.

Rosita wrote: »

I studied Irish and English to degree level and teach English privately to foreigners and I find that there is in fact a lot of first and second language interference which can cause confusion.

Would their second language be a language learnt in an immersion education setting?

gaeilgegrinds

Loads of evidence of this based on immersion. And I definetely believe it from my teaching. All my highest results last year were from students with one parent whose MT is not English or Irish...

Rosita

Micilin Muc wrote: »

Would their second language be a language learnt in an immersion education setting?

Well, my students vary to be honest but some would be au-pairs living with English-speaking families so presuming immersion to mean having the class entirely in English and being in an English speaking environment all the time - as opposed to just when in school - it is immersion.

Immersion is obviously an excellent way to learn a language, but I'm not sure if it necessarily answers the question of the benefits of having extra languages already learnt with regard to learning another.

byhookorbycrook

kingkev100 wrote: »

i dont think these "i.r.a. doctrinated anti protestant extreme neo catholic" gaelscoileanna are above any other well run school.

Our school principal is married to a Church of Ireland spouse. I absolutely refute any suggestion of IRA leanings in any Gaelscoil I know. "Extreme noe- Catholic??"Oh please, get a grip.

anoisaris

kingkev100 wrote: »

i dont think these "i.r.a. doctrinated anti protestant extreme neo catholic" gaelscoileanna are above any other well run school. that the kids like going to school , as some here claim, is more a reflection of thier parents instilling the value of education and respect towards their school rather that the school themselves. staff get paid the same rate regardless of what school they are in. also, what these people always leave out is that, and very unfairly, theyget an extra 10% on top of their marks in the leaving cert compared to any other school... why i don't know as they have chosen to learn through irish so why they get bonus marks seems very illogical and unfair.
to sum up, any school is good if the child works, the parents care and the teachers care. it is not the type of school but the type of child and parents. imho, protestant and catholic fee paying schools are better any way, in terms of grades, all round education and willingness to acknowledge other religions and cultures... not just the catholic one in irish schools

Not all Gaelscoileanna/coláiste are Catholic or religious by the way!

Teachers do get paid more for teaching through Irish and a further allowance if teaching in a Gaeltacht.

ytareh

kev that was an outrageous statement!

Rosita

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Our school principal is married to a Church of Ireland spouse. I absolutely refute any suggestion of IRA leanings in any Gaelscoil I know. "Extreme noe- Catholic??"Oh please, get a grip.

In all fairness, you are only giving that cliched nonsense altitude by replying. It is best ignored and not given the notice it is seeking.

Micilin Muc

Rosita wrote: »

Well, my students vary to be honest but some would be au-pairs living with English-speaking families so presuming immersion to mean having the class entirely in English and being in an English speaking environment all the time - as opposed to just when in school - it is immersion.

Immersion is obviously an excellent way to learn a language, but I'm not sure if it necessarily answers the question of the benefits of having extra languages already learnt with regard to learning another.

What we're talking about in this thread is first level students who learn a second language in an immersion education setting. Research (Steven May, Cummins and more) shows that children who learn a second language from a young age (first level) show better cognitive ability, as well as the linguistic awareness needed to learn a third or fourth language.

gaeilge-abú

gaelscoileanna's are excellent in my opinion.!the whole atmostphere is totally different and everyone seems to be so close..
i myself now go to a gaelcholaiste,,after serving at an english speaking primary school..(there was no gaelscoil in my area) and i love it!:D..it definitely helps ones confidence and self esteem and because numbers are generally lower,we get more attention from the teacher!..it feels amazing being in an environment where everyone is speaking the native language!..i dont agree that ones english is at a disadvantage if attending a gaelcholáiste either,,because from my own experience,,there is alot of emphasis put on the english subject in my school!..

ulysses32

Is it not the case that gaelscoileanna provide the opportunity for middle class parents to separate their children from everyone else?

Are they providing a privileged environment for the few at the expense of the many?

Are these parents focused on the growth and traditions of the language or are they more keenly aware of the advantages of streaming their kids into a school for the academically able by using bi-lingualism as a smokescreen?

Rosita

ulysses32 wrote: »

Is it not the case that gaelscoileanna provide the opportunity for middle class parents to separate their children from everyone else?

Are they providing a privileged environment for the few at the expense of the many?

Are these parents focused on the growth and traditions of the language or are they more keenly aware of the advantages of streaming their kids into a school for the academically able by using bi-lingualism as a smokescreen?

Though this is a popular argument, it's hard to see how it stands up in the same way that an argument regarding fee-paying schools might.

Toto Wolfcastle

ulysses32 wrote: »

Is it not the case that gaelscoileanna provide the opportunity for middle class parents to separate their children from everyone else?

Are they providing a privileged environment for the few at the expense of the many?

Are these parents focused on the growth and traditions of the language or are they more keenly aware of the advantages of streaming their kids into a school for the academically able by using bi-lingualism as a smokescreen?

I don't necessarily agree that gaelscoileanna separate middle class children from everyone else. I completed my secondary school education in an Irish-speaking school and we had a mix of those from disadvantaged areas, middle class familes, students with special eduactional needs, students from different countries, etc. Two of the gaelscoileanna from which a lot of students entered the school I went to were in disadvantaged areas. The school I went to is highly rated by many, academic results are generally above average, and students come from as far away as Laois to attend it. The mix of students works well. There were problems but there are problems in every school.

ulysses32

It seems to me that by striving for diversity and choice for parents we have created a tiered system of schooling. I agree that students from the gs outperform others, just like students from fee-paying schools outperform others; they are stratified environments.


Every family doesn't have the cultural resources to choose the gaelscoil, those who do obviously have a keener eye on performance and capability of their child.

If 'immersion' is such a strong case then I would like to know the percentage of these families who choose Irish as the primary mode of communication in the home?

As for SEN, it does depend on the child and the disability; I find it difficult to accept that a child with an intellectual disability is best served by an 'immersion' environment.

Powerhouse

ulysses32 wrote: »

It seems to me that by striving for diversity and choice for parents we have created a tiered system of schooling. I agree that students from the gs outperform others, just like students from fee-paying schools outperform others; they are stratified environments.


Every family doesn't have the cultural resources to choose the gaelscoil, those who do obviously have a keener eye on performance and capability of their child.

If 'immersion' is such a strong case then I would like to know the percentage of these families who choose Irish as the primary mode of communication in the home?

As for SEN, it does depend on the child and the disability; I find it difficult to accept that a child with an intellectual disability is best served by an 'immersion' environment.

I don't understand your question - rather its relevance - about the percentage of families "who choose Irish as the primary mode of communication in the home" in the context of the immersion debate. Surely the immersion argument is generally accepted. Someone will always have a better grasp of a language coming from a school when it is the mode of instruction. Whether this is followed up in the home hardly alters that fundamental point.

As for our education being tiered - of course it is. The moneyed middle-classes dominate university for many reasons. It it wasn't tiered students woudl go to their local shool and there'd be no streaming, no fees, no interviews.

However, I am not so sure that Gaelscoileanna are as stratified as you say, or that cultural resources is such a big thing. My wife and myself both studied Irish to degree level and speak nothing else at home. Yet, our child failed to get into the local gaelscoil simply because it took children on the basis of date of birth and she was a month too young.

There was no way we were waiting another year until she was almost 6 to to go to school so we sent her to an English speaking school and and she will remain in English speaking schools for the rest of her days now I expect. Yet, technically we would be considered among those with the "cultural resources" if there's such a thing - while I know for a fact that a fair chunk of the parents couldn't tell you their names in Irish.

Johnny Drama.

Kids will gain more in life from learning French or Italian etc

Toto Wolfcastle

Johnny Drama. wrote: »

Kids will gain more in life from learning French or Italian etc

And? They wont learn those languages in a gaelscoil? By the time I had reached Transition Year I was pretty much fluent in Irish and had studied German, French, Spanish, Italian and was beginning Japanese.

Rosita

Johnny Drama. wrote: »

Kids will gain more in life from learning French or Italian etc

This comment is probably deliberately trite but I got a strong honour in French in my Leaving Cert and have never used the language since. I didn't need it even when I holidayed in France.

There is a school of knockers of Irish out there who imply that every student that leaves school spends most of their time speaking French, Spanish or German or whatever afterwards as they are so "practical" and "useful" (compared to Irish). That is a fiction.

It is a reality that the Irish do the whole "savage craic" year in English speaking countries anyway e.g. Australia etc. Very few Irish students would dream of spending time in the countries of the language they did in school, save a two-week piss-fest in Ibiza or wherever when they won't exactly be debating the Spanish subjunctive.

NathanOR

I came from a Gaelscoil not so long ago, and it made me and my friends into the A level students we are today.

Since the age of 6, being bilingual has been a huge advantage to my studies. And the results are easy to see. In my Second Year we have two Higher Level Maths classes each with 20 students, 29 of these students are from the Gaelscoil, same for Higher Irish (obviously) and you'll find surprising same for English. All the students from our Irish School (bar a few with learning disabilities) are in Higher English. You see, its because we learned through Irish and everything our teacher taught us in Irish we had to translate to English in our heads and it helped to us to grasp everything and retain that knowledge which helped us to excel in our studies!

It really amazes me at the differences between my primary school and those of my friends who attended English schools. A lot of their teachers were old and had certain ways of teaching and werent open to new ideas of teaching, whereas our teachers were all under 40 and would teach in fantastic ways. We learned Maths through games in the yard, and Geography from trips to our local forests etc. and it seriously made the difference! Also, I can honestly say I bonded with all my teachers, I mean, I was allowed to call my teachers by the first name and it made, me to bond with them!

Finally, I taught it would be horrible trying to study in English from 1st Year forward but it was much much easier then studying in Irish. So that is one reason that i despise parents for using as an excuse! And also, parents you dont need to be fluent in Irish to help your child with their homework, theyll be fluent themselves!!

byhookorbycrook

Bobblehead Panda wrote: »

And? They wont learn those languages in a gaelscoil? By the time I had reached Transition Year I was pretty much fluent in Irish and had studied German, French, Spanish, Italian and was beginning Japanese.

Our school also has German classes as part of the school day. Parents who wish to do so can also pay for French after school.

Toto Wolfcastle

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