Building Trust with a Nervous Horse

Dilynnio

Hey,

I recently got a companion filly for my gelding. She is a 4 yr old who was broken a year ago but has not been ridden since. She has barely been handled or ever been in the company of another horse from what I have been told. The two of them have bonded very well and already she is a changed horse. The only problem is that I am finding it difficult to trust her as she spooks easily and can turn on you in a second. I am just looking for some advice as to what technique or training methods I could use to build up a bond with her? I have tried doing what the books say but it hasn't worked. I am also unable to lead her by a rope. She seems to be afraid of everything but can be very feisty and pushy at times and being a very big horse can be quite daunting!

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

togster

What do you mean by "turn on you"? and what the books have said?

With any nervous horse, time and patience are fundamental. In order for her to trust you she must have confidence in you. You can be firm in order to show her it's ok.

Also a little more info about her habbits etc would be helpful.

Micky Dolenz

togster wrote: »

What do you mean by "turn on you"? and what the books have said?

With any nervous horse, time and patience are fundamental. In order for her to trust you she must have confidence in you. You can be firm in order to show her it's ok.

Also a little more info about her habbits etc would be helpful.

Have to echo that. I had a very nervous mare that would flitch when touched. It took months of special attention .

I would spend hours reading to her (the newspaper ) and once she was a little bit more comfortable I groomed her and always always talked to her.

It may be wise to get a history on your filly as this will help you overcome the problems. IWith my mare she eventually became comfortable around me but stayed the same with strangers...poor dear.

Dilynnio

Hey,

Thanks for the messages.

By turning on me an example would be.....She would allow me to pet her head and I would be talking calmly to her and then next she would quickly try to bite me or she would swing around quickly and then try to kick me.

The reason I have taken her on is that she was in a field by herself with little or no attention. She is a beautiful horse with possibly great potential. She is full of mischief. I think she is more of a fight horse then a flight horse!

It is also proofing very difficult to separate her and my gelding now. She is so protective of him and will hardly let me near him! I am not too bothered about this at the moment. I am just happy that they are getting on and that she has company.

Would anyone recommend re schooling?

Micky Dolenz

There is a fine line between being Master and friend cos you need to be both.

What helped with me was routine, I would do a bit of lunging everyday and found she was clamer after exercise. You need to take control so don't be afraid to be assertive.

biomech

first things first you need to catch her.. bring a treat with you to bargin. if you can do that a few times a day to start your going places.. standing back and admiring her "fight not flight" personality is telling her that she owns you. if you dont get plenty discipline on the table soon it could be too late.

Dilynnio

Hey,

Thanks again for the advice. I will put it into practice and see what happens!

togster

OP it's important to be strong and setermined when working with your filly. The fact that she was alone in a field would re-inforce to me that she is probably fiercely independant. Now that she has a companion things may become even more difficult. She needs to respect your presence and authority. Using her companion could be a good way to teach her. Start by removing him from her for short period of times and working with him while she can see. This will put you in the middle of their herd and replace her as the herd leader. You should always control every situation you are in and do not let her bully or force her own way. I can not stress this enough.

MDFM

I'd re-iterate what togster just said..you need to establish firmly with her that you are the boss and that's its not acceptable for her to turn on u like that.
My story - A year ago i found myself in the same position as you as i bought a virtually wild, unhandled mare. She'd had little or no human contact. While she was part of a herd, the other horses were all young horses and between them being taken away for training and replaced with other horses, her life (my mare) basically was that of establishing herself in an ever changing herd.
We'd so many problems with her from day one, so as someone also said already, time will be the essence. You say she turned on you, the exact same thing happened to me. One day when i eventually did manage to catch her and put lead rope on her, i touched her neck lightly with a body brush, she turned to me and came at me with her teeth..it was like there was rage in her eyes! But i managed to avoid the teeth, but i didnt let go of her, i waited a few secs, then with the end of the leadrope, i gave her a good hard smack on her lower belly. She obviously pulled away from me, but i stood my ground..when she'd settled, i touched her again with the body brush on the neck, she again turned on me to attack me with her teeth. I avoided her again and straight away i gave her another 2 slaps on her under belly and gave out to her loudly. This time she froze to the spot, wouldnt move. I rem standing there hoping that would be the end of it and it was..i didnt move, kept my grip on her for a while then i rem releasing the tension in it. Then i moved to her neck again with the brush and spook firmly to her, she let me brush her neck, though a little nervous of me, but that was ok. I then brushed the other side of her neck and she stood for it, so once we'd acheived that, i let her go. I might also add, that those were the first and only times i hit her, to this day, 11 months later, i've never lifted a finger to her.
For the next few days i didnt do anything with her. all this time she still didnt really want to know me, even if you'd try to look at her in the field, she had so little interest in human contact, that she would avoid any eye contact with you!
When i was bringing in the other horses at night for either riding or stabling, i'd leave her loose in the cattle yard, usually with one of the other horses tied up (that'd i be going to ride). Again for a long time, she'd avoid looking at you and would do her best to make sure she kept her distance from you. So i ignored her as well..eventually though, after a long while, her curiousity started to get the better of her each day..I would leave things lying around, like brushes, ropes, horse boots etc... and let her decide for herself that they were safe...so eventually she used to get that bit closer to me, on her own terms, when i was working on the other horse (such as picking his hooves, grooming him etc..). She also started to recognise the fact that the other horse would willingly take treats from my hand, and again her curiousity would get to her and she'd get that bit nearer to me everyday. All this time though i was also giving her a handful of nuts in a bucket.in the early stages i had to leave it on the ground away from me and once i was a safe distance away from it as far as she was concerned, she'd then eat from it. Over time though she started to realise though that if she wanted the nuts, that like it or not, she would have to come closer to me. By now though she still didnt want me catching her. I did though finally manage to catch her again..leading her was another battle, she'd usually end up leading me! But once i got her into the small cattle yard with the other horse, i started to tie her up to the gate. Luckily enough this wasnt too much of a battle, while she didnt stand very still, she didnt fight it too much, but she did do a lot of walking on the spot, cos she couldnt go anywhere. So this i continued to do anytime i could catch her and tied her up when i was working/riding the other horses. After a while, even though she still wasnt easy to catch, she started to stand quietly once tied. Then i started to groom her again, she was nervous though, but i always kept the other horse tied near enough to her and if she got unsettled or nervy when grooming, i used to just stop and give her a short break from it and go back to working on the other horse. The thing is then, within a day or so, she started to love being groomed - she realised that the brushing was a good way of me stratching her itchy bits!!..so when i was doing her neck or wither area i could feel her pushing again the brush and kinda moving her neck in my direction as if she was trying to point out what she wanted me to stratch!
when i got this far with her, i thought i could start leading/lunging her again...well, she was still able for me in that area - i was the one who was lead again - i ended up sitting on my arse in the middle of the arena more times than i care to remember,so..obviously this wasnt going to work.
Next time i tried it, i just put her back into the small cattle yard (it has a big high wall so she couldnt get away) and i stood in the middle with the lunge whip and made her move away from it and around me. Of course she panicked and freaked a few times, but i didnt do anything just made her go forward all the time, changing directions all the time. After a few days we did this again, and after a few mins of objecting to it, she was fine. Then i put the lunge rope on her in the yard, and while the lunging wasnt perfect, she did move forward and away from me in a circle..on and off over a few days i repeated it, but, i didnt spend a huge amount of time at it either, any time i thought she was making progress i would finish her session at that.
I think the breakthrough finally came with her was when we brought one of the horses to a show and left her out in the field with a pony. when we got home, we found her in another paddock - she'd jumped out to it where the cattle were. she looked a little lost and confused, and for the 1st time in the 3 months we'd had her, when i went out to the field to her (to try to catch her), she started to walk towards me! i moved back a few times and she still came up to me and let me catch her!! i was delighted, felt like at last she wanted to be in my company. I rem actually at that time, the field she was in, the only other way out of it was to bring her through the farmyard where the machinery was stored...I got her as far as where 2 tractors were parked, and the only way out was to go through the gap between the 2 tractors..She started to freak a little and stopped dead in her tracks. So i stood there with her coaxing her by them, i didnt pull her, just a few gentle tugs on the lead rope - took ages, but finally she walked by them, then we made a huge fuss of her!
There were many other little battles with her along the way - such as trimming her feet, dosing/vaccinating her..but, all these things were new to her, so we just had to convince her that it was ok. The other thing was, while the previous negligent owner tried to convince me that she wasnt in foal when selling her to me, i knew she was..this my own vet confirmed to me - so in november of all months, she gave birth to a fab filly foal! And better still we covered her last month, she's now in her 5 week in foal, scanned her last week! Anyway, 11 months on, we have a fantastic mare, who is an absolute dream to have around the place! We never broke her, though we were considering it if she didnt go in foal this year, as shes still only 6. But now we have another foal to look forward to. The mare herself is so easy going and laid back, not a bad bone in her body, and is so far removed from the mare we got 11 months ago. While we never backed her, I can walk right up to her and rest her across her back she'll pass no heed. she leads perfectly, loads into the box perfectly and is waiting for me at the field gate every evening at 6pm for me when i get home from work. Some things still spook her, but as regards being naughty, she never is, she's not even cheeky! If my other horse could be as mannerly and obliging as her i'd be happy!
So, sorry for the long winded story, but, your story is just so familar to me! All i can say is, no matter how long it takes, just keep at it. First thing is to earn the respect of your horse and put a stop to her turning on you like she is, she has to be told that you are the boss, once she realises that, then you've crossed the 1st obstacle. What i've found from my own experience is that i've learnt so much from her and i'm glad i have her now. Enjoy your horse and take your time, also be careful, avoid those teeth of hers and her hind legs till you get to know her better!!!

Dilynnio

MDFM,

Thanks for sharing your story with me. I have taken everyones advice on board and although I was a bit apprehensive yesterday I did persist with her and made a tiny bit of progress. She allowed me to put her head collar on!So I was happy with that although it took me ages! I was a lot firmer with her and it seemed to work.

slowsnail

OMG guys - this is all so familiar to me. Really get what you were saying about fight or flight too as well as the danger of a dominance issue with humans developing.

We have 2 fillies - rising 3 and rising 4 - half sisters (same mother different father). We bought them in early 08.

The older one was totally unhandled when we got her and ironically this was a plus in our case. With TLC she took to us no problem. Even though she had little or no contact with humans before us she also didn't have any bad expriences to focus on. She is an absolute dote. She's is much easier to manage than her sister and I have no concerns working around her. Shes very aware of her space and my space. In fact if I'm mucking out and she's in I don't even have to touch her to get her to move. We've trained her to move out of our way when we say 'beep beep'. We only use this phrase when in the stable so she knows exactly what you mean when you say it.

Only downside, if you could call it that, is she scares easily at anything unfamiliar. Definitely flight inclined - at one stage running straighht through a wooden fence when a guy in a backfiring racing car he had been working on drove by (illegally I might add!). She takes her lead from us and even when frightened will calm down when she see's us and comes running over to us for reassurance.

The younger one however is a different story. Suffices to say had a rough start to life before we got her. Months before we saw her she had been attacked by a shod horse who had gotten into the field - its shoe caught in her chest and ripped a hole in her. She was stitched, it got infected, then reinfected, didn't close up, restitched etc etc (not for the squimish!). By the time we saw her the farmer had already given up on her and was 'letting nature decide' as he put it (if she survived she survived but he wasn't putting any more money in vet bills into her). So we took her as part of the deal when we bought her sister.

As a result all her early interactions with humans resulted in pain for her (stitches, injections etc) including unfortunately her first few months with us. She took ages to come out of herself - was just like a rag doll - didn't really seem to care what happened to her. She used to just stand there for what must have been the most painful thing I can think of - an injection into an open wound. Ironically it was when she started adversely reacting to the Vet's visits after several weeks that we knew she was coming round. It literally took months but she's all healed up physically now except for a permanent scar to her chest.

Its the mental damage and phobias that she's very obviously left with thats our main concern now. We just put up with most of them because they seem harmless enough (like her stable phobia - vet used to put his bag down on a chair in her stable to treat her so now she won't have any items in her stable except her food and water. Doesn't sound too bad but believe me trying to groom a horse who keeps picking up the grooming brushes and chucking them out over the stable door or pulling down and throwing her haynets ut of the stable when shes finished eating as well as knocking her blankets off the door when your trying to change them over, - while funny - can be a bit of a pain at times.) However its her reaction when in the open to things that frighten her that gives us real cause for concern.

Our main problem with her is around the 'fight' element that seems to have developed into a protectionist thing with her. When she gets a fright she lashes out with her legs instead of running away. Never teeth thank god. The first problem is she will buck before running at whatever has frightened her. This is quite dangerous because she has, on one occasion done it while in close proximity to me. Thankfully I was close to her hind quarters grooming her in the yard at the time so when she bucked before taking off I was too close for her to make contact. It wasn't directed at me - as always she was totally focused on whatever had scared her. On that ocassion it was our dog playing with his new sqeaky. Dog doesn't bother her at all in fact most times she's spend ages watching him running round the yard like a lunatic with a squeaky in his mouth. But on this occasion he was playing with a new one that obviously sounded different to her. She got a fright, bucked up before running at the toy (which he had dropped in fright at her reaction) and proceeded to rear at it, then cow kicked it before spinning round and kicking it away from her. Then as usual as quickly as the reaction started, it stoped and she trots back over and stands beside me as though nothing had happened. Only telltale sign was her heart racing and a bit of remenant snorting while she caugt her breath.

Vet doesn't think theres any malice in it towards us - in fact quite the opposite - and he says I need to keep an eye on that. and this is the biggest potential problem - He's worried that its a protective thing at the moment but therres a danger it could turn into a dominance issue.

My husband agrees with him - he has noticed weird behaviour from her during Farrier visits. She'll stick like glue to my husband while the farriers on the premises. This despite her feet being finished, the gate to the field open and her sister out in it, until she is sure the farrier has left. He thought she was just being nosy but now thinks it may be something more because even though the farrier will be gone out of sight she'll stay around him for a few mins until she's absolutely sure the farriers gone.

So we're trying to keep an eye on her. I'm just a bit worried that its not so much about her protecting us as much as her being worried that we can't protect her or ourselves .......which means she doesn't full trust us yet...not nice to think that she's still a worry wart about her safety living with us after all this time.

Still I suppose she has come a long way from the physical and mental wreck she was when we first got her....and she is a very affectionate girl that we just wouldn't be without really - even if she never get beyond being a pet.

Think positive - with TLC and time I'm sure it will all work out with your girl......

Chindato

What's happening is that your mare is speaking to you like you were another horse. She wouldn't normally tolerate another horse approaching her without her permission, and any horse bold enough to try would be told in no uncertain terms that they weren't welcome.

Horses in groups have a pecking order. There's a boss (usually a mare), right down to a dogsbody. Everyone gets out of the way of their betters - or else! Whoever moves you is dominant over you. If you watch your two horses, one will move the other around - usually by directing energy towards the other's flanks to move them forward, and towards their head if they want to stop them.

In horse language, approaching the head is seen as a highly aggressive move, and it's not really surprising then that your mare felt the need to warn you away. Horses that are more used to people learn that they get in trouble for making faces so hide what they're feeling a lot of the time. Your mare hasn't learned 'natural humanship' yet so doesn't know how to mimic human behaviour to manage you - YET

If you're looking for something to read, look at some of the natural horsemanship stuff. Or better still, find an NH clinic and go watch, or bring your mare.

I was at a clinic recently where the clinician worked with a really nervous mare, and it did seem to calm things down an awful lot for both the horse and handler. Worth a go.

Chindato

slowsnail wrote: »

Our main problem with her is around the 'fight' element that seems to have developed into a protectionist thing with her. When she gets a fright she lashes out with her legs instead of running away.

Horses usually have two options open to them when they feel threatened: fight or fllight. They are by nature flight - prey - animals, and this is their first choice in a tricky situation. However, if they can't get away, they will turn and charge.

I suspect what's happening with your mare is that she feels that moving away from what she's concerned about is not an option, so she's resorting to defending herself.

With domesticated horses, often it's enough for them to *feel* like they're moving away from the danger. You could try letting her out to the end of her lead rope and let her move her feet around a bit. Turn that movement into something with purpose - give her something to channel that energy in a positive way. It may be something simple like moving her quarters over. This enables you to set her up to do something good, so you can praise her and reassure her. Then everyone's happy Gradually she should learn that her expressing concern is ok and that she's not going to get shouted at for it provided she keeps listening to you for direction. Your job is to give that direction - when we don't, horses end up confused, unhappy, depressed and/or defensive. Remember that a worried horse cannot think of anything beyond looking out for his safety - they can't learn when they're tense, so calmness is always the starting point.

I don't want to sound like a natural horsemanship nut, but it would really be worth your while attending a clinic and learning about horse behaviour, what concerns them, how they express that concern, and what behaviour humans can show which will convince a horse that the human is in charge and they won't come to any harm. That's ultimately where we have to get with all our horses - to the state where the horse willing gives over responsibility for his safety to us, and looks to us for direction.

Hope this helps
Chindato (NOT an NH tutor )

ecaf

Chindato your post is a very interesting read. I may only be building trust with foals right now, but in a way its a bit similar because they certainly don't know humanship! I love to learn a bit more about horses all the time, I have plenty to learn.

slowsnail

thanks Chindato will keep an eye out for a clinic that will allow spectators without bring madam for now.