Smods Thread.

Boston

To set the context;

I posted this, just the other week

Boston wrote: »

Feedback should be a forum were users get to have an input of site changes before they happen. Too often the end user finds out about changes only after they have been put in place. Case in point being the change to the front page a few months back which required a u-turn after it went live. There are all these little changes which often effect the philosophy of boards and the first time I, or other users, find out about them is when they hit us in the face. As another example, when Vexorg stepped down there should have been a thread here started by an admin on the topic rather then the mindless conjecture which resulted. Feedback should be a "community interaction forum".

To which DeVore replied with this:

DeVore wrote: »

I agree with you Boston, I think I've always done that where it was possible. However, I've also simply driven things forward and people have screamed at me but then gone "oh, actually, thats good".

Things have changed very quickly lately and I've been trying to keep everyone informed. I owe "Feedback" a big long post explaining whats been happening. I take your point that some things should be discussed BEFORE hand and the example of the design was a good one, you werent the only one who didnt get a preview of that.

Somethings I will come and debate things here, and sometimes thats not appropriate. I make no apologies for making that distinction but I take your point that the former is not something we should lose...

DeV.

And in response to change in Smod status Seamus replied with this;

seamus wrote: »

I know some people like to know what's going on, but at some point you have to do it on a need-to-know basis. The change doesn't really affect the users.

Finally to the point of the thread. What exactly is going on? I understand you can't take into account every whiny moron's opinion when making changes but I'd at least like to know what the new order of things is. I fail to see how something can be both "need to know only" and also insignificant enough that it won't effect the end user. This type of behaviour is less like how a community operates and more akin to a company. A company does not inform the customer/client/end user when there is a change in middle management status, so why should boards? Meh.

I'd like to know,

1) Are the Smods now partial owners of boards.ie Ltd
2) If not are the employees?
3) What new responsibilities, if any, do the Smods / Admins have.
4) What new "Powers", if any, do the Smods / Admins have.
5) What was the rational for the change.

If the questions cannot be answers at this time, I'd like someone to say so.

Beruthiel

Boston wrote: »

1) Are the Smods now partial owners of boards.ie Ltd

No

2) If not are the employees?

No

3) What new responsibilities, if any, do the Smods / Admins have.

None as such.

4) What new "Powers", if any, do the Smods / Admins have.

Smods are now Admins. Hence, the buck stops there.
We are now the same.

5) What was the rational for the change.

At times our hands were tied. If someone didn't like what they were hearing they would insist on going past the smod to an Admin. That will no longer happen.

Because we are now Admins there are a few things we can now do which we couldn't before.
We can set up forums.
Add extra Mods or demod someone stepping down.
Basic stuff which helps with the smooth running of the site.

Boston

Thank you.

Seamus made reference to not having DB access, is this the case?

RoundyMooney

And you will continue to do all this (as in stuff which now has a direct bearing on the direction of the site with the responsibilities that go with it above and beyond banning spammers etc.) in a purely voluntary role?

You guys get to approve forums for example, and set site policy in relation to various matters? All for free?

We all love the site, but there's a difference between implementing someone else's policy for them to help out, and driving that policy yourself, if that is what the mooted changes involve.

Like Boston, while communication was lacking in the past, I remember when every little change was brought to the fore with in many cases well deserved enthusiasm (e.g. new RAM for the server-singular). Debate invariably resulted, and as such was healthy.

That doesn't happen any more.

What happens if by some benchmark, things are seen to deteriorate (god forbid, btw)? Are voluntary people to be held accountable by the owners?

edit: The above is not a statement, but merely a question.

Beruthiel

There would be no reason for us to have access.
Ross and Connor are the only ones with access I think.
Probably Cloud too.

Ponster

I'll let Beruthiel answer but if you go and install VBulletin yourself, you can see the technical differences between the powers that a mod, smod and an admin have.

"Normally" an admin on a vbulletin site does not have access to the database.

Beruthiel

RoundyMooney wrote: »

And you will continue to do all this (as in stuff which now has a direct bearing on the direction of the site with the responsibilities above and beyond banning spammers etc.) in a purely voluntary role?

Purely voluntary.

You guys get to approve forums for example

That depends on how popular the new forum would be and we always vote on big decisions.

and set site policy in relation to various matters?

That would depend on the matter.

All for free?

Same as any mod.

Gordon

The only extra things that we have power to do are create private fora afaiu. I really want to have access to the word censor but I don't think Ross is letting us have that. We've had a great deal of permissions for a long time, having the title Admin is really just superficial.

RoundyMooney

Thanks Bru.

I would have misgivings about taking on such responsibilities myself in a voluntary capacity, but I'm sure you guys have discussed this amongst yourselves.

AckwelFoley

Personally i dont feel the need to know the ins and outs of whos pulling the strings here on boards as long as i dont find out that Seamus, cloud dev or who ever up there for that matter is part of some neo fascist group.

Otherwise ill happily spam after hours as i do and life goes on.










Terry for Smod,

K?

Gordon

For me it's not so much about extra responsibilities. I don't use boards like I used to (pth shout out), I don't use the internet like I used to as I rarely use social networking sites now. But I take a great interest in helping sites like this along, and creating, or simply maintaining a framework that all parties are interested in.

So, for me it's not about the extra responsibility, it's simply a different role, trying to keep most people happy as opposed to trying to keep the forum I mod happy.

Boston

Beruthiel wrote: »

There would be no reason for us to have access.
Ross and Connor are the only ones with access I think.
Probably Cloud too.

Grand.

Ponster wrote: »

I'll let Beruthiel answer but if you go and install VBulletin yourself, you can see the technical differences between the powers that a mod, smod and an admin have.

"Normally" an admin on a vbulletin site does not have access to the database.

Irrelevant. On this site "Admins" and Smods have had access to the DB in the past. Some worked almost solely in the background keeping machines running while others were "front facing" dealing with what was the Smod role.

Beruthiel wrote: »

That depends on how popular the new forum would be and we always vote on big decisions.

So actions are taken by committee.

Beruthiel

Boston wrote: »

So actions are taken by committee.

That is correct.

Gordon

Boston wrote: »

So actions are taken by committee.

'Network brane' seems to be the current buzzphrase at the moment.

Beruthiel

Gordon wrote: »

'Network brane' seems to be the current buzzphrase at the moment.

We are the Borg.

RoundyMooney

I still don't understand where the commmans come in for example.

Where would the site owners come in for that matter?

If you want to leave such questions to DeV, that's understandable.

Basically, you guys are performing an executive role-your competency and motivation for doing so should be above reproach, but it represents if nothing else a most generous undertaking on your (non-Borg) collective parts.

seamus

RoundyMooney wrote: »

What happens if by some benchmark, things are seen to deteriorate (god forbid, btw)? Are voluntary people to be held accountable by the owners?

Of course not. DeVore giveth, DeVore can taketh away. If it turns out that it's not working, I'd expect DeV to go, "Sorry guys, my bad, I made the decision and it was crap.". By the same token, if MSN come along and offer 40 bazillion euros for boards.ie in ten years time, I wouldn't turn around to him and go, "I was instrumental in that. Money K plz thx".
Although I would be disappointed if he didn't at least buy us dinner

Irrelevant. On this site "Admins" and Smods have had access to the DB in the past. Some worked almost solely in the background keeping machines running while others were "front facing" dealing with what was the Smod role.

Incidental. Asok had DB access purely because he had access to the machine in his professional role. It wasn't part of his Smod role, simply an additional service he personally offered because he was in a position to offer it.

Now, the roles (particularly of the employees) have been well-defined. It's not just a matter of, "Here's the keys to boards.ie, please be careful", instead everyone has access to exactly what they need to perform their role and nothing more - be they employed, vountary, admin or developer.

So actions are taken by committee.

No. That implies a structured voting system. It's a co-operative for all intents and purposes. We have the power/authority to act unilaterally but we have sufficient respect for eachother and the entire site to know what requires discussion and what doesn't.

Incidentally, I posted this 3 months ago and nobody blinked:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055504119

I still don't understand where the commmans come in for example.

They're officially being known as the "Ambassador Admins". They're the link between boards and the real world. They are the face of boards.ie and they develop real-world links with boards, such as commercial interaction. They also do all the other jobs which you couldn't in all conscience ask a volunteer to do - such as doing up FAQs and contacting companies about legal complaints. Those two sentences in fact don't do justice to the guys and their hard work. Their roles are vary varied.

Where would the site owners come in for that matter?

They're the board. Now known as the "Founder Admins". They naturally get the only votes where matters of their pockets or real life come into play. But given site matters, they have equal input as all the other Admins. In a deadlock, they get the controlling/deciding vote, because, well it's their site.


I've probably just pissed all over some announcement DeV wanted to make

Gordon

RoundyMooney wrote: »

Basically, you guys are performing an executive role-your competency and motivation for doing so should be above reproach, but it represents if nothing else a most generous undertaking on your (non-Borg) collective parts.

What is more generous than mods giving their time, I don't understand the difference.

RoundyMooney

@ Seamus: I read that at the time, and it never read to me as an explicit statement that smods as they were, were making or breaking fora. Smods with Admins and CM's maybe.

Gordon wrote: »

What is more generous than mods giving their time, I don't understand the difference.

Let me expand a bit, because maybe we're not entirely pursuing the same line here. A mod has the run of their own bit of boards (a forum or fora). They *do not* have executive control over even that forum. An smod as I saw it, and most likely as it was, was simply a big mod. Someone with sitewide (more or less) control, who would uphold the policies as set by the site owners (we used to call them admins).

Now, you guys (smods) are the admins. You do not have a share in the company, yet aside from matters financial, you have admin control, and are basically, it seems to me, tasked with (I want to say editorial control, but that's not quite right) but certainly executive control.

Don't get me wrong, most of you have stuck with the site throughout, and no one knows the place better, IMHO. My point is, you are taking on a responsibility now that goes well beyond simply being a janitor, and more toward that of actually doing what some of us envisaged a CommMan doing.

With a concern the size of boards, that's a big ask by anyone's standards. At least it is to me.

Gordon

RoundyMooney wrote: »

@ Seamus: I read that at the time, and it never read to me as an explicit statement that smods as they were, were making or breaking fora. Smods with Admins and CM's maybe.



Let me expand a bit, because maybe we're not entirely pursuing the same line here. A mod has the run of their own bit of boards (a forum or fora). They *do not* have executive control over even that forum. An smod as I saw it, and most likely as it was, was simply a big mod. Someone with sitewide (more or less) control, who would uphold the policies as set by the site owners (we used to call them admins).

Now, you guys (smods) are the admins. You do not have a share in the company, yet aside from matters financial, you have admin control, and are basically, it seems to me, tasked with (I want to say editorial control, but that's not quite right) but certainly executive control.

Don't get me wrong, most of you have stuck with the site throughout, and no one knows the place better, IMHO. My point is, you are taking on a responsibility now that goes well beyond simply being a janitor, and more toward that of actually doing what some of us envisaged a CommMan doing.

With a concern the size of boards, that's a big ask by anyone's standards. At least it is to me.

Not big in my opinion, someone has got to do it. What's the problem with this in your opinion?

RoundyMooney

I don't have a problem with this at all.

In fact, it could probably be argued by some that it's a more "democratic" approach, in that site direction is (or has moved toward being, to be more accurate) in the hands of voluntary members, rather than paid employees of b.ie ltd. (which is pretty much what the admin(s) have been for a while anyway.

I hasten to add that I'm sure that the staff of the company are totally impartial.

As in the other thread, my main problem is with the lack of info (in all aspects, not just this) coming down the wires. I feel that the users deserve better.

RoundyMooney

Btw, thanks again Seamus. This is interesting stuff.

Random

What are your motives for devoting so much time to this website as an "equal" to the guys who are (ultimately) gonna make a mint out of it without any of the (financial) reward?

Nerin

Random wrote: »

What are your motives for devoting so much time to this website as an "equal" to the guys who are (ultimately) gonna make a mint out of it without any of the (financial) reward?

i'd assume their "motives" to be the same as ours (me and you)

Gordon

Random wrote: »

What are your motives for devoting so much time to this website as an "equal" to the guys who are (ultimately) gonna make a mint out of it without any of the (financial) reward?

The same as yours as you are a moderator.

Random

Gordon wrote: »

The same as yours as you are a moderator.

Well I'm just a power hungry bastard who likes to ban people

I'm not questioning your motives, I'm asking what I feel is the question that this thread has become. I think people just want reassurance.

I could be way off though.

Sully

I'm a tad confused why there is such a big deal. Maybe I am missing something. The Smods as we knew them were simply the next level up from a CMod. They had control over the site and worked on various issues such as communicating with admins, dealing with complaints about mods etc. A big mod, basically. They did their work for free, as did the local fora mods and category cmods.

Now there title has changed to "Admin" and they have a few extra permissions such as creating forums, assigning mods and stopping the "escalate to admin" for complaints (unless in certain circumstances). They were given this roll because people were getting pissed at having to wait around for the Admins, who were up the wall, getting around to requests such as forums and mods.

Its confusing to most of us, but things are still being straightened out from what I gather and an announcement is due to explain everything once the build up is all sorted.

I cant get my head around why its being made a big deal though

RoundyMooney

There's a difference between modding a forum or two and taking on an admin role on one of the biggest (*the* biggest?) sites in the country.

Seamus' post has clarified things somewhat, but I wouldn't like to put individuals wriggling on a pin, as it's not entirely fair.

It's not so much the role or the commitment, as the responsibility.

Ponster

Random wrote: »

What are your motives for devoting so much time to this website as an "equal" to the guys who are (ultimately) gonna make a mint out of it without any of the (financial) reward?

Already answered by the others I think. All I'd like to add is something that Dev over and over again is that the old smods were admins in almost everyway but title. Most were making decisions that typical admins should make but they didn't have the title to go along with it.
Smods are the motors and the real power in any foums of this size (IMO).

Gordon

RoundyMooney wrote: »

Seamus' post has clarified things somewhat, but I wouldn't like to put individuals wriggling on a pin, as it's not entirely fair.

Don't worry, we're quite happy helping you put your pin where it belongs, nothing has changed in that respect.

Sully

RoundyMooney wrote: »

There's a difference between modding a forum or two and taking on an admin role on one of the biggest (*the* biggest?) sites in the country.

Seamus' post has clarified things somewhat, but I wouldn't like to put individuals wriggling on a pin, as it's not entirely fair.

It's not so much the role or the commitment, as the responsibility.

But they have been doing it for donkey years. Its probably been more of a headache for them going back and forth waiting for answers. Now they can actually sort out what needs to be done much easier and its a lot less stressful.

There is very little new.. It seems that the title change has freaked you out. I'm happy to be a mod voluntary and if asked to take more weight on my shoulders I have no problem doing so. Ill do it when I have the time because I enjoy doing it. Im sure its much the same for everyone else.