Rockbrook Sandyford

hotshot_rf

Hi there,
looking for some advice. what are peoples views on the new Hooke and McDonald appartments at South Central Sandyford opposite the Stillorgan Luas stop. Seem to be great value with two bed appartments down to 295k from 495k. They seem too good to be true to be honest and was just wondering if anyone had any opinions on them. Will appartment prices drop more in the future? Went to see these appartments and them seem very well finished with great interest and lots selling everyday.

johnnyskeleton

It's a matter of high demand and limited supply really.

There are literally thousands of apartments in that area falling over each other to try to scoop up the few available buyers. I mean, these apartments will do anything to get a buyer. They form orderly queues, sometimes even four or five stories high, just to get a look in.

There is even so much competition among the apartments in the area, that some of them have to go without sufficient waste disposal facilities.

A big problem though is that they tend to tout their wares by the side of the road and, increasingly, beside the luas line.

My advice, if I was one of those puppies, is that I would snap up the first FTB or investor who so much as looks my way.

noleafclover78

I'm not sure if the OP is as confused by this response as I am?....

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

It's a matter of high demand and limited supply really.

Surely you mean high supply and limited demand?

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

They form orderly queues, sometimes even four or five stories high, just to get a look in.

Maybe I just don't get your sense of humour. You're referring to the apartments as "forming queues, four or five stories high", yeah?

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

There is even so much competition among the apartments in the area, that some of them have to go without sufficient waste disposal facilities.

A big problem though is that they tend to tout their wares by the side of the road and, increasingly, beside the luas line.

Is this all still part of the joke? Are you saying that rubbish is not being collected and is accumulating near the LUAS? Could you please make your point without sarcasm or wit, as I am genuinely interested in hearing what information you have on this development, just as the OP is.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

My advice, if I was one of those puppies, is that I would snap up the first FTB or investor who so much as looks my way.

Yeah, I get the impression that the developers are trying hard to convince people to buy.

That said, the apartments ARE finished nicely, they are in a convenient location next to the LUAS, and some have nice views. I suspect the asking price will come down further though. The current price of €295k is for a select few 2-bedroom units. They range in price up to €395k.

PaulieBoy

hotshot_rf wrote: »

Hi there,
looking for some advice. what are peoples views on the new Hooke and McDonald appartments at South Central Sandyford opposite the Stillorgan Luas stop. Seem to be great value with two bed appartments down to 295k from 495k. They seem too good to be true to be honest and was just wondering if anyone had any opinions on them. Will appartment prices drop more in the future? Went to see these appartments and them seem very well finished with great interest and lots selling everyday.

You sound like an estate agent if you ask me !!
I think it's daylight robbery to ask anybody to pay from 295K for a dog box.

irlrobins

Sandyford is swamped with the apartments. Yes they're beside the Luas, but there's a lack of amenities in the immediate area. I remember First Active releasing info last year on what the max LTV was that they were prepared to offer in certain areas. South Dublin as a whole had the highest LTV that they would lend, with one exception: Sandyford. I think that speaks volume.

If you geuinely like these apartments and are happy with the spec etc, I'd wait, the prices have dropped but I think they only got 8 buyers (read this in one of the property sections, can't remember which). So if you wait, I'd expect a further price drop.

I'd also enquiry as the when the developement will be fully complete. No one wants to live beside a empty shell.

Edit: I got the lender wrong, it was IIB who issued the report. Irish times article discusses it here. They equated Sandyford to Ballymun!

Cantoris

The problem with apartments in Sandyford is that the complexes were to be mixed use, apartments and retail. In the current environment, those retailers that are there will certainly face tough times and some will go bust while any nw retailers won't come in. So it could be a very quiet area. I know they were planning to put in a pub and a number of shops in that section near the luas but that won't be happening now. If you are happy to live in a ghost area then I'd wait for a while longer. Why not rent there for six months (I'd say you coul get a very good deal), see if you like the area and then buy.

PaulieBoy

irlrobins wrote: »

Edit: I got the lender wrong, it was IIB who issued the report. Irish times article discusses it here. They equated Sandyford to Ballymun!

They equated Sandyford to Ballymun! Perhaps you should get a job as a headline writer for a redtop newspaper, one which has little use for facts!
They said :
The bank has classified Sandyford and Ballymun in Dublin and commuter towns including Bray, Greystones and Delgany in Co Wicklow, and Maynooth in Co Kildare, as secondary for buy-to- let.
A far cry from equating Sandyford to Ballymum, a subtle but significant difference.
Refrain from distorting the facts.

irlrobins

Oh relax, anyone reading the article would know that I meant they put Sandyford in the same value group as Ballymun.

holyjoe

hotshot_rf wrote: »

Hi there,
looking for some advice. what are peoples views on the new Hooke and McDonald appartments at South Central Sandyford opposite the Stillorgan Luas stop. Seem to be great value with two bed appartments down to 295k from 495k. They seem too good to be true to be honest and was just wondering if anyone had any opinions on them. Will appartment prices drop more in the future? Went to see these appartments and them seem very well finished with great interest and lots selling everyday.

i live and work in the area,ive watched all these apts around beacon and south central being build from day one and i personally think you would want to be absolute nuts to pay 295k for a 2 bed apt in the middle of an industrial estate.
renting there because you work in the estate is one thing but buying a place there is crazy,
the trafiic is a nightmare there every morning and evening as everyone tries to get in/get out from work. then at the weekends the place is like a ghost town. there is much nicer places in stepaside and other nearby areas..

trifler

Fleming have got the message and cut prices from the crazy levels of 2 years ago. A 40% cut in property prices does bring them close to the historic price/average earnings level. In addition to that, the historically low interest rates makes it possible to acquire a nice property on an affordable mortgage - which you simply couldn't do 2 years ago.
There undoubtedly will be further price drops, which means negative equity is likely for a period. However if it's where you want to live and can afford it, forget the bottom seekers. Prices will probably come down, but lower prices with a more expensive mortgage may cost just as much.
Also you may not get the same choice of location. In time also the level of fitout in unfinished apartments is likely to decline, as builders try to cut costs.

Re Rockbrook.
Pluses: Good location, close to Luas and M50. Apartments to front will not be overlooked. Sea views from some apartments.
Good design/construction: Dual aspect layout; no long corridors; each lift serves only 3-4 apartments on each floor; reasonable storage; excellent fit out.
Service charge €1500 vs €2200 in Beacon quarter (but no 24hr concierge or cappucinos in the lobby)

Minuses: Peak hour traffic; large overhang of apartments in the area; retail space in the complex may be unoccupied for years (though Beacon Quarter shops are close); cross town public transport not great (e.g. to Dun Laoghaire or Tallaght)

The current prices are close enough (+10%) to the "Affordable housing" in the area, without all the clawback hassle. Also the local rental rates are close enough to the mortgage cost, giving a level of protection against redundancy etc, if you have options (e.g. moving back to parents).

Nothing's a slam-dunk in such a volatile market, but could be a good choice.

oceanclub

trifler wrote: »

Fleming have got the message and cut prices from the crazy levels of 2 years ago.

According to this, the price is still €295K for a 2-bed:

http://www.hookemacdonald.ie/app/property.asp?ID=2313

P.

spockety

trifler wrote: »

A 40% cut in property prices does bring them close to the historic price/average earnings level.

So, eh, historically people on the equivalent of €100,000 Euro a year lived in 2 bedroom apartments in industrial estates?

Hmm. Not sure on that one.

noleafclover78

spockety wrote: »

So, eh, historically people on the equivalent of €100,000 Euro a year lived in 2 bedroom apartments in industrial estates?

Don't jump down my throat, but where did you get the €100k figure?

Are you saying that "historically" people pay 3x their annual wage for their home?

In a nice area in the capital, with (distant) sea views, and on a quality public transport line?

spockety

noleafclover78 wrote: »

Don't jump down my throat, but where did you get the €100k figure?

Are you saying that "historically" people pay 3x their annual wage for their home?

In a nice area in the capital, with (distant) sea views, and on a quality public transport line?

Er, yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.

oceanclub

noleafclover78 wrote: »

with (distant) sea views,

You would make a great estate agent.

P.

noleafclover78

oceanclub wrote: »

You would make a great estate agent.

Why, thank you!

But do you not honestly agree that being able to see the sea from a distance, and therefore the horizon, is a good thing?

Personally I would much prefer that to having another block of offices/apartments looking back at me! It gives a sense of distance when you look out the window.

I'm just trying to make the point that I think these apartments are better than most that are on the market. But yes, they are still way overpriced.

oceanclub

noleafclover78 wrote: »

Why, thank you!

But do you not honestly agree that being able to see the sea from a distance, and therefore the horizon, is a good thing?

Yes, but Sandyford is 3 miles from the sea, with urban build up in between What the minimum floor of these apartments from where you can you see it, and what happens if something is built that blocks the view? I'm fairly sure that Sandyford isn't located on a hill or promontory.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing; I'm just dubious that such a distant view adds any real value to the property.

Even people on AAM are dubious:

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=109639

According to them, only a few 2-beds are €295K . Most are between 305K and 355K.

P.

trifler

Spockety,

Aren't you the inconsistent one!
Here's your post from another forum today!!
Hoisting and petard come to mind....

You didn't need to be able to spot the top. You just needed to realise we were in the middle of a classic property bubble. Well documented, happened in lots of other markets/countries. Buying at the 'top' of the bubble isn't the only point at which it's unwise to do so in retrospect, buying at any point in the upcycle of the bubble is unwise. For a lot of people it didn't take 'luck' to make this decision, it took educated research. For a lot of people the stuff they are saying now is the same they have been saying for a long time, only now everyone can see they were right and it hurts.

Similarly, going forward, you don't need to buy at the bottom to ensure you have made the correct decision to enter the market. You just need to buy at a point where you can see that the market conditions reflect historical norms to within a tolerance of a few percent.

Whether that's before the bottom is reached, or after the upswing from the bottom doesn't matter.

If as some people are predicting the Irish market undershoots on the way down, the bottom will be about as reflective of a normal property market as the top was. That is to say, not reflective at all really.

What are the conditions at which it's a good time to buy, historically?
Well everyone has their own take on it, and there is lots of historical data to help.
For some it will be when a house in an area someone of their status or social or professional standing traditionally lives can be bought for 3-4 times their income. For others it will be when those same houses are valued at somewhere from 14-20 times the annual rent that such a property would command. For others it is when a 20-25 year mortgage at an interest rate that is not historically low will take no more than 30-40% of their take home pay.

For some people, it's all of the above!

Rockbrook fits pretty well into the criteria you suggest.

spockety

trifler wrote: »

Spockety,

Aren't you the inconsistent one!
Here's your post from another forum today!!
Hoisting and petard come to mind....

You didn't need to be able to spot the top. You just needed to realise we were in the middle of a classic property bubble. Well documented, happened in lots of other markets/countries. Buying at the 'top' of the bubble isn't the only point at which it's unwise to do so in retrospect, buying at any point in the upcycle of the bubble is unwise. For a lot of people it didn't take 'luck' to make this decision, it took educated research. For a lot of people the stuff they are saying now is the same they have been saying for a long time, only now everyone can see they were right and it hurts.

Similarly, going forward, you don't need to buy at the bottom to ensure you have made the correct decision to enter the market. You just need to buy at a point where you can see that the market conditions reflect historical norms to within a tolerance of a few percent.

Whether that's before the bottom is reached, or after the upswing from the bottom doesn't matter.

If as some people are predicting the Irish market undershoots on the way down, the bottom will be about as reflective of a normal property market as the top was. That is to say, not reflective at all really.

What are the conditions at which it's a good time to buy, historically?
Well everyone has their own take on it, and there is lots of historical data to help.
For some it will be when a house in an area someone of their status or social or professional standing traditionally lives can be bought for 3-4 times their income. For others it will be when those same houses are valued at somewhere from 14-20 times the annual rent that such a property would command. For others it is when a 20-25 year mortgage at an interest rate that is not historically low will take no more than 30-40% of their take home pay.

For some people, it's all of the above!

Rockbrook fits pretty well into the criteria you suggest.

I don't see anything inconsistent in what I said?

Rockbrook fits pretty well into the criteria I suggest assuming you accept that for someone earning almost 3 times the average wage they would historically be living in 2 bedroom apartments overlooking an industrial estate on the outskirts of Dublin.

I'm sorry, but it's my belief that 295k for a 2 bed apartment in Sandyford is nothing short of utter insanity. This fits perfectly with the posting of mine you are quoting. Can you even point out the inconsistency you are referring to?

cls

irlrobins wrote: »

Sandyford is swamped with the apartments. Yes they're beside the Luas, but there's a lack of amenities in the immediate area. I remember First Active releasing info last year on what the max LTV was that they were prepared to offer in certain areas. South Dublin as a whole had the highest LTV that they would lend, with one exception: Sandyford. I think that speaks volume.

They're talking buy-to-let. The reason being there is just too many apartments. Its a saturated market. Thats got nothing to do with quality of living. rockbrook is on the LUAS line, a short hop from Dundrum and I would even class it as walking distance for those who are reasonably active (as well as Stillorgan). Carrickmines will also be easily accessible when the luas extension opens. As for immediate local amenities, you have Dunnes stores, super value, a couple of banks, starbucks, O' Briens, munchies, odd bins and all types of take aways to name just a few. The only thing the immediate area is lacking is a pub. (Edit: there is a pub in the Beacon hotel, I forgot about that ) But as I said, you're a short hop from Dundrum for everything you need. Marlay park and the mountains are also worth a mention but you'd need to factor in a car for that.

I'm not buying or selling there, but I clearly live in the area :-)

p.s I'm not commenting on whether or not thats a good price, I'm just giving some advice on the area. Personally, I can't think of a better area to live than Sandyford. Can the doubters name one thing the area does not have? Because I can think of nothing. I suspect you've never even been to Sandyford.

holyjoe

cls wrote: »

They're talking buy-to-let. The reason being there is just too many apartments. Its a saturated market. Thats got nothing to do with quality of living. rockbrook is on the LUAS line, a short hop from Dundrum and I would even class it as walking distance for those who are reasonably active (as well as Stillorgan). Carrickmines will also be easily accessible when the luas extension opens. As for immediate local amenities, you have Dunnes stores, super value, a couple of banks, starbucks, O' Briens, munchies, odd bins and all types of take aways to name just a few. The only thing the immediate area is lacking is a pub. (Edit: there is a pub in the Beacon hotel, I forgot about that ) But as I said, you're a short hop from Dundrum for everything you need. Marlay park and the mountains are also worth a mention but you'd need to factor in a car for that.

I'm not buying or selling there, but I clearly live in the area :-)

p.s I'm not commenting on whether or not thats a good price, I'm just giving some advice on the area. Personally, I can't think of a better area to live than Sandyford. Can the doubters name one thing the area does not have? Because I can think of nothing. I suspect you've never even been to Sandyford.

i live in the area also and i can think of many better area's id like to
live in, they are just too far from work.

support all depends where in sandyford your talking about, there nice areas in sandyford but no matter how many shops,pubs,luas's are on your door step in Rockbrook the fact of the matter is you would be living in the middle of an industrial estate. not my idea of a nice place to live.

whizzbang

trifler wrote: »

Fleming have got the message and cut prices from the crazy levels of 2 years ago. A 40% cut in property prices does bring them close to the historic price/average earnings level. In addition to that, the historically low interest rates makes it possible to acquire a nice property on an affordable mortgage - which you simply couldn't do 2 years ago.
There undoubtedly will be further price drops, which means negative equity is likely for a period. However if it's where you want to live and can afford it, forget the bottom seekers. Prices will probably come down, but lower prices with a more expensive mortgage may cost just as much.
Also you may not get the same choice of location. In time also the level of fitout in unfinished apartments is likely to decline, as builders try to cut costs.

It sounds like you are assuming you can get a low mortgage rate for the whole term of the mortgage if you buy now? "More expensive mortgages" i.e. higher interest rates, will hit people who buy now much worse than people who buy when the price is lower!

Or am I missing something?

noleafclover78

holyjoe wrote: »

i live in the area also and i can think of many the fact of the matter is you would be living in the middle of an industrial estate. not my idea of a nice place to live.

People keep saying this ^^

Can somebody explain their reasoning why this is supposedly so?

Fair enough if you have (or are planning) children, then it's not a great place for them (nor would an inner city apartment for that matter).

I've never lived "in the middle of an industrial estate", so I don't know what the potential problems are.

I can see some good points though such as mostly professional people working and living nearby, quiet at the weekends, etc.

I just think that these apartments and general area are quite nice. Not worth €350k(ish)... but nicer than most other apartments I've seen.

Just because one person thinks an apartment should cost €100k, doesn't mean that other people shouldn't be completely happy to buy one for 2 or 3 times that amount.

Why do some people by brand new mercedes cars when they could buy a cheaper car for 5 times less! Similar situation!

cls

holyjoe wrote: »

i live in the area also and i can think of many better area's id like to
live in, they are just too far from work.

support all depends where in sandyford your talking about, there nice areas in sandyford but no matter how many shops,pubs,luas's are on your door step in Rockbrook the fact of the matter is you would be living in the middle of an industrial estate. not my idea of a nice place to live.

Its a business park rather than an industrial estate, there's a big difference. But yeah it definitely stinks of dodgy rezoning back handers.

PaulieBoy

cls wrote: »

Its a business park rather than an industrial estate, there's a big difference.

http://maps.google.com/maps?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=Sandyford+industrial+estate&um=1&ie=UTF-8&split=0&gl=ie&ei=pYAeSt-JFZTKjAfN5_SVDQ&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1

cls

noleafclover78 wrote: »

People keep saying this ^^

Can somebody explain their reasoning why this is supposedly so?

Fair enough if you have (or are planning) children, then it's not a great place for them (nor would an inner city apartment for that matter).

I've never lived "in the middle of an industrial estate", so I don't know what the potential problems are.

I can see some good points though such as mostly professional people working and living nearby, quiet at the weekends, etc.

I just think that these apartments and general area are quite nice. Not worth €350k(ish)... but nicer than most other apartments I've seen.

Just because one person thinks an apartment should cost €100k, doesn't mean that other people shouldn't be completely happy to buy one for 2 or 3 times that amount.

Why do some people by brand new mercedes cars when they could buy a cheaper car for 5 times less! Similar situation!

The problem is traffic build up in the business park. Its quite bad around 5.30pm. I'm not sure about the mornings but I'd say it'll be the same around 9am-ish. The infrastructure is very good though and although you get traffic build up it is nothing too drastic. Definitely something to check out for yourself before buying there though.

Having said that, for all other times of the day its actually beneficial. You've got great infrastructure without the heavy traffic.

cls

PaulieBoy wrote: »

http://maps.google.com/maps?client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=s&hl=en&q=Sandyford+industrial+estate&um=1&ie=UTF-8&split=0&gl=ie&ei=pYAeSt-JFZTKjAfN5_SVDQ&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=title&resnum=1

It's incorrectly named. It consists of office blocks and car show rooms. There's nothing industrial about it. Maybe there used to be and thats where the name came from. But I'm pretty sure the plaques and name stones say business park.

trifler

whizzbang wrote: »

It sounds like you are assuming you can get a low mortgage rate for the whole term of the mortgage if you buy now? "More expensive mortgages" i.e. higher interest rates, will hit people who buy now much worse than people who buy when the price is lower!

Or am I missing something?

1. You can fix for up to 10 years at present
2. Bl...ing obvious that for any specific mortgage Ts+Cs, the smaller the capital amount, the smaller the monthly payment
3. For anyone thinking about buying now, the key issue is whether you will be able to buy a similar apartment (location, design, fitout) for a much lower price than current - before interest rates start to rise again. If you think you will be able to, then wait. If you think the overall affordability is close to an optimum figure, then consider buying the apartment you like, at the best price you can negotiate

trifler

spockety wrote: »

I don't see anything inconsistent in what I said?

Rockbrook fits pretty well into the criteria I suggest assuming you accept that for someone earning almost 3 times the average wage they would historically be living in 2 bedroom apartments overlooking an industrial estate on the outskirts of Dublin.

I'm sorry, but it's my belief that 295k for a 2 bed apartment in Sandyford is nothing short of utter insanity. This fits perfectly with the posting of mine you are quoting. Can you even point out the inconsistency you are referring to?

Spockety,

Using the criteria that you referred to for the calculation of reasonable property value:
1. A professional/couple on €70k could be looking at 4x salary (€280k) on property cost
2. Two bed rental in the area is c. €1400 pm. At 14-20x annual rental, this equates to €235k-€336k property value
3. Mortage of €250k costs c. €1500 pm or about 40% of take home pay on a €60k-€70k salary.

My point is we are getting into the ballpark of what represents reasonable value.

Then we come on to your rather emotional comments ,"overlooking an industrial estate", "utter insanity".
The apartments overlook the Luas, Stillorgan residential areas, a reservoir, and on the upper floors, the sea - 2.2 miles away. (Check it out on Google Earth). Not herds of roaming Vildebeest perhaps, but certainly not smokestacks.

spockety

trifler wrote: »

1. You can fix for up to 10 years at present
2. Bl...ing obvious that for any specific mortgage Ts+Cs, the smaller the capital amount, the smaller the monthly payment
3. For anyone thinking about buying now, the key issue is whether you will be able to buy a similar apartment (location, design, fitout) for a much lower price than current - before interest rates start to rise again. If you think you will be able to, then wait. If you think the overall affordability is close to an optimum figure, then consider buying the apartment you like, at the best price you can negotiate

Let's take the 295k apartment, ignoring for the moment that as has been pointed out elsewhere it is the worst 2 bed apartment in the block and all others are more expensive (going right up to near 400k).

80% mortgages are available on apartments, and AIB's 10 year fixed is currently 4.41%.

This means that you need to have a 60,000 euro deposit saved to buy this apartment.

At that interest rate, on a 236,000 euro 25 year mortgage, the monthly repayments are 1,300 euro.
If we are generous and assume management fees for a 2 bed in that block are 1,200 a year, that makes the monthly payments on ownership of it at 1,400 euro a month.

If we take 1,300 euro as being 35% of take home pay, it gives us a monthly net pay of 3,714. This equates to a salary of 70,000 euro.

I think that in this market, you would be lucky to get 1,000 a month rent for a 2 bed apartment in Sandyford. Using rental income multiples of 14-20, this places a value of 158-240 thousand euro on this apartment.

It's not close yet in my rather humble opinion.

spockety

trifler wrote: »

Spockety,

Using the criteria that you referred to for the calculation of reasonable property value:
1. A professional/couple on €70k could be looking at 4x salary (€280k) on property cost
2. Two bed rental in the area is c. €1400 pm. At 14-20x annual rental, this equates to €235k-€336k property value
3. Mortage of €250k costs c. €1500 pm or about 40% of take home pay on a €60k-€70k salary.

My point is we are getting into the ballpark of what represents reasonable value.

Then we come on to your rather emotional comments ,"overlooking an industrial estate", "utter insanity".
The apartments overlook the Luas, Stillorgan residential areas, a reservoir, and on the upper floors, the sea - 2.2 miles away. (Check it out on Google Earth). Not herds of roaming Vildebeest perhaps, but certainly not smokestacks.

I don't dispute a lot of what you say there (other than the 1400 euro rent. Put this up on Daft asking 1400 a month and see how long it sits there empty).

I guess where we differ is the fundamental question of whether a person who earns 70,000 euro a year (double the average wage) would historically find themselves living in a 2 bedroom apartment on the outskirts of Dublin?

I say no. You presumably say yes. End of story I think!