The greatest power grab...

Scofflaw

It's sometimes instructive to reflect someone's public statements back on them, to see whether there's any truth in the idea that we tend to accuse our opponents of our own vices, and of seeking what we want ourselves.

Something that I posted on another thread struck me, in that respect, as worth a further thought - Declan Ganley's statement that Lisbon is the 'greatest power grab' in EU history. It's certainly not true of Lisbon, which is a pretty mild treaty, and certainly doesn't contain any such power grab...

...but think about what Libertas are trying to do. If they are successful in their electoral aims, then for five years they will hold at least the balance of power in the European Parliament, or even simply be the power in the Parliament. That puts the central democratic institution of a polity of half a billion citizens, of most of the world's wealthiest and most powerful countries, in the hands of one man.

Whatever else about Libertas, surely that would be the single greatest power grab in the history of the EU. And the attempt is already under way. If Libertas are successful, then from this June on, the European Parliament will be at the disposal of one man - Declan Ganley. And there is no mechanism I am aware of for dismissing MEPs or dissolving the EP - Libertas would not have to face the electorate for five years. Even if they decided to turn right around and support Lisbon - which would extend the powers of the Parliament Libertas would control - they cannot be voted out or recalled. Lisbon may well pass anyway, but a volte-face by Libertas would really set the seal on it.

And we don't have any idea what he would want to do with it, but we do know that the Parliament elects the Commission President, and can reject the Commission if it doesn't like the candidates - and there is a new Commission due in October. It can reject the EU budget, and amend or refuse laws. All those powers are intended to be the means of democratic oversight by the citizens of Europe, not the levers of power for one man.

That's an incredible amount of power, in the hands of one man, for the outlay of a few million euro. How did this even become possible?

thoughtfully,
Scofflaw

ixtlan

Such a power-grab is obviously what they want, but I'm not sure why it's any different to any other rich person who might want to do something similiar in the EU or indeed in an individual state.

Has Ganley achieved anything special with Libertas? He has assembled a rag-tag team of people with almost nothing in common with each other except a desire to weaken the EU. In fact might he even be due a grudging respect for convincing all these disparate groupings that attacking their common enemy was more important than their differences?

It would be harder for this to happen on a national scale, as the candidates would have to agree on policies for all areas which would be difficult. In the EU they simply hope to act as spoilers.

Are there any parallels inside the EU or states? Berlusconi in Italy controlling the media? I'm sure there are others. Berlusconi though has a lot of leverage. If Ganley succeeds with the relatively little he has then the citizens of the EU will sorely disappoint me.


Ix

Irish and Proud

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's sometimes instructive to reflect someone's public statements back on them, to see whether there's any truth in the idea that we tend to accuse our opponents of our own vices, and of seeking what we want ourselves.

Something that I posted on another thread struck me, in that respect, as worth a further thought - Declan Ganley's statement that Lisbon is the 'greatest power grab' in EU history. It's certainly not true of Lisbon, which is a pretty mild treaty, and certainly doesn't contain any such power grab...

...but think about what Libertas are trying to do. If they are successful in their electoral aims, then for five years they will hold at least the balance of power in the European Parliament, or even simply be the power in the Parliament. That puts the central democratic institution of a polity of half a billion citizens, of most of the world's wealthiest and most powerful countries, in the hands of one man.

Whatever else about Libertas, surely that would be the single greatest power grab in the history of the EU. And the attempt is already under way. If Libertas are successful, then from this June on, the European Parliament will be at the disposal of one man - Declan Ganley. And there is no mechanism I am aware of for dismissing MEPs or dissolving the EP - Libertas would not have to face the electorate for five years. Even if they decided to turn right around and support Lisbon - which would extend the powers of the Parliament Libertas would control - they cannot be voted out or recalled. Lisbon may well pass anyway, but a volte-face by Libertas would really set the seal on it.

And we don't have any idea what he would want to do with it, but we do know that the Parliament elects the Commission President, and can reject the Commission if it doesn't like the candidates. It can reject the EU budget, and amend or refuse laws. All those powers are intended to be the means of democratic oversight by the citizens of Europe, not the levers of power for one man.

That's an incredible amount of power, in the hands of one man, for the outlay of a few million euro. How did this even become possible?

thoughtfully,
Scofflaw

...at least he would be elected by the people - and if he misbehaves, he can always be booted out when the time comes, just like the Republicans were in the US. Basically, I'm a yes for a democratic EU, but no to an EUSSR (Lisbon).

Let Democracy Rule!

Regards!

Ihaveanopinion

However, Ganley and Libertas are misleading the voting public. The internet is covered in ads like 'Libertas votes YES to Europe' or other nonsense like that. That is ambiguous - perhaps leading the viewer to think that Libertas were a Euro-centric party.

In effect they are a mish-mash of Right wing Nationalistic party such as BNP and that Czech group whose name escapes me, never mind questioning Ganley's motives or inspiration.

I'm all in favour of the people voting for who they want. People grandstanding on false claims - misleading the public - is not good. A real representative of the people would not do that

(think i might get shot down for that last bit)

ionix5891

Irish and Proud wrote: »

...at least he would be elected by the people - and if he misbehaves, he can always be booted out when the time comes, just like the Republicans were in the US. Basically, I'm a yes for a democratic EU, but no to an EUSSR (Lisbon).

Let Democracy Rule!

Regards!

And look what happened there :rolleyes: ...

im not sure if your being sarcastic as your logic does not compute

Scofflaw wrote: »

for the outlay of a few million euro. How did this even become possible?

scary eh? last years No vote was bought for about a million, and he didnt have to show where a cent of the money came from, anyways another well written post mr S

ixtlan wrote: »

Are there any parallels inside the EU or states? Berlusconi in Italy controlling the media? I'm sure there are others. Berlusconi though has a lot of leverage. If Ganley succeeds with the relatively little he has then the citizens of the EU will sorely disappoint me.

The Bush dynasty in the US

Rupert Murdoch in UK

Putin in Russia

there's plenty of powerful and rich men buying their way into the system or interfering with it, and look where that gets these countries.

.

getcover

I'm unclear how electing Ganley would put him in a position where he could control the EU Parliament?
(I ask merely for clarification).

Dinner

This is something that has been worrying me for a while now. The idea of a pan-European part seems a bit dangerous. Allowing one party to gain more power then would be possible running in just one country is very dodgy.

They could theoretically have more clout in the EU than some countries do!
That alone is enough for me to not vote for them. Taking their ludicrous void of a manifesto into account just seals the deal.

ixtlan

getcover wrote: »

I'm unclear how electing Ganley would put him in a position where he could control the EU Parliament?
(I ask merely for clarification).

I think the idea is that if they achived their ambitious electoral goals, they would be able to block activity in the EU parliament, forcing concessions to them.

Some people might have made similiar claims about the PDs, a small group of TDs heavily influencing several governments. However the difference is that the PDs were working within the system. Libertas, whatever they would publicly acknowledge, are intent really on destroying the system. That is, they want Europe to have far less say in each member state. So little say in fact, that the idea of the EU would become meaningless. For example the policy of requiring every state's citizens to have a blue card to work in another state.

Ix.

ixtlan

Dinner wrote: »

This is something that has been worrying me for a while now. The idea of a pan-European part seems a bit dangerous. Allowing one party to gain more power then would be possible running in just one country is very dodgy.

Well, actually there are several pan-European "groupings". Not parties in name, but with similar goal and policies. So I'm not sure it's fair to criticise them on this account.

Dinner

ixtlan wrote: »

Well, actually there are several pan-European "groupings". Not parties in name, but with similar goal and policies. So I'm not sure it's fair to criticise them on this account.

Didn't know that. Any names for them? Wouldn't mind looking into them.

Saabdub

At some point Federal politics was bound to emerge. Looking at the history of the US is instructive. From the beginning those who supported a strong Federal Government, and wrote the Constitution, were called Federalists. Those who supported State's Rights were the Anti-Federalists. With the development of Libertas Europe may also be on its way to developing a multi-party system at the Federal level.

Scofflaw

getcover wrote: »

I'm unclear how electing Ganley would put him in a position where he could control the EU Parliament?
(I ask merely for clarification).

Electing Ganley wouldn't, but Libertas are running several hundred candidates across the EU - the number is uncertain, since both 300 and 500 have been mentioned, and I don't think Libertas have a list on their site.

Obviously if all of those were elected, Libertas would pretty much be the EP. If half, then Libertas are a block the same size as the EPP-ED or PES, the largest blocks in the EP, and would, again, dominate the EP unless everyone else cooperated against him.

All that's required, though, is that sufficient Libertas candidates are elected to make them capable of holding the balance of power in the EP votes - which is a stated intention of Ganley's.

You see, there would be no other similar group to Libertas in the Parliament. The existing EP groupings are very loose alliances rather than parties, with a party 'leader' who is just an elected coordinator, whereas Libertas would be essentially under the control of one person. And the problem there is that the EP is a good deal more powerful than most people realise - sufficient control of the EP also gives a good deal of control over the Commission.

cordially,
Scofflaw

PopeBuckfastXVI

Scofflaw, may I please post this on the facebook 'No to Libertas' group and link back here?

ixtlan

Dinner wrote: »

Didn't know that. Any names for them? Wouldn't mind looking into them.

This is useful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_groups_of_the_European_Parliament

The bit about the far-right nationalists is rather amusing. It seems they find it so difficult to relate to even themselves that the group keeps breaking up!

Libertas will presumeably be in the Ind/Dem grouping with Kathy Sinnot.

As Scofflaw says these are not parties. They are very loose coalitions.

ix.

Hitman Actual

ixtlan wrote: »

Libertas will presumeably be in the Ind/Dem grouping with Kathy Sinnot.

ix.

Afair, if they get something like 25 MEPs elected from 7 different countries, they can become a new grouping in their own right. The numbers there might be a bit off, but it's something along those lines.

Scofflaw

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Scofflaw, may I please post this on the facebook 'No to Libertas' group and link back here?

Be my guest!

cordially,
Scofflaw

getcover

OK, thanks ixtlan, Scofflaw.

Didn't really realise Libertas were organised to that extent, I thought they had simply managed to sign up some like minded nutters.

The only consolation in Ireland is that any of them is highyl unlikely to get elected, but are there any opinion polls/measures of support for their candidates in other countries?

BlitzKrieg

PopeBuckfastXVI wrote: »

Scofflaw, may I please post this on the facebook 'No to Libertas' group and link back here?

Are you the guy constantly arguing with everyone on the libertas facebook page?

Scofflaw

getcover wrote: »

OK, thanks ixtlan, Scofflaw.

Didn't really realise Libertas were organised to that extent, I thought they had simply managed to sign up some like minded nutters.

The only consolation in Ireland is that any of them is highyl unlikely to get elected, but are there any opinion polls/measures of support for their candidates in other countries?

They're pretty low in the polls in most other countries as well, from what I gather - usually below the margin of error. In the UK they have some unknown share of the 1% "other parties" in the euro polls. I think they were doing OK in Poland, but the stuff O'Malley and Simmons have come out with about restricting Eastern European immigration to Ireland has apparently made the front pages there, which can't be helping them.

The good thing about Libertas, I suppose, is that Ganley seems to have slapped the 'pan-European party' together in a tearing hurry. Most of the parties under the banner he effectively bought outright with guaranteed loans. He hasn't attempted to actually line them up and point them in one direction - or indeed publicise his planned direction - he's just rebranded them. Still, that's how you do an acquisition spree.

I would think that if one wanted to build a pan-European party of principles as opposed to slapping together a variety of failing populist parties, you would need to start now, and spend the next five years building policies, support and candidates. You could then expect to get a couple of candidates in 2014, with maybe a reasonable chance of a decent number in 2019. Of course, that doesn't seem to be what Ganley is interested in - his business history is characterised rather more by quick buck operations.

cordially,
Scofflaw

PopeBuckfastXVI

BlitzKrieg wrote: »

Are you the guy constantly arguing with everyone on the libertas facebook page?

Nope

BlitzKrieg

Its a boardsie clearly though, he even mentions this forum in his latest post.

Who is this mysterious person?

Jack Sheehan

Can someone link to the facebook?

BlitzKrieg

libertas facebook page http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/pages/Libertas/7454491540?ref=mf


no to libertas page http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=61466059549&ref=mf

ShooterSF

Ihaveanopinion wrote: »

However, Ganley and Libertas are misleading the voting public. The internet is covered in ads like 'Libertas votes YES to Europe' or other nonsense like that. That is ambiguous - perhaps leading the viewer to think that Libertas were a Euro-centric party.

In effect they are a mish-mash of Right wing Nationalistic party such as BNP and that Czech group whose name escapes me, never mind questioning Ganley's motives or inspiration.

I'm all in favour of the people voting for who they want. People grandstanding on false claims - misleading the public - is not good. A real representative of the people would not do that

(think i might get shot down for that last bit)

I know you seen it coming but still..
Wow. Do you really think every other party are full of "honest Abes"? All politicians lie. Libertas are as bad as the rest of them. They spend their time bad mouthing the other parties which unfortunately in this country might be effective. However it's no worse than a certain Labour candidate that called to my house recently and started with "My father, the ex president..." blah blah living off others names.
Libertas to me were a ends justifying the means in regards to Lisbon. They balanced out the lies and propaganda on both sides. Not the best situation obviously but better than one-sided bull.
However when it comes to the election they will be just ahead of FF and the greens on my list and behind the rest.

djpbarry

getcover wrote: »

Didn't really realise Libertas were organised to that extent, I thought they had simply managed to sign up some like minded nutters.

They have – finding a few hundred nutters isn’t going to be too difficult in a group of 500 million people. As for “like-minded”, I’m not sure about that. Libertas’ candidates don’t seem to be able to agree on too much.

djpbarry

ShooterSF wrote: »

Libertas are as bad as the rest of them.
…
Libertas to me were a ends justifying the means in regards to Lisbon. They balanced out the lies and propaganda on both sides.

Come off it – Ganley makes the likes of Bertie, Berlusconi and Stanishev look like boy scouts. When it comes to dishonesty, misinformation and out-and-out lying, Libertas are a cut above any mainstream party (in Ireland at least).

ShooterSF

djpbarry wrote: »

Come off it – Ganley makes the likes of Bertie, Berlusconi and Stanishev look like boy scouts. When it comes to dishonesty, misinformation and out-and-out lying, Libertas are a cut above any mainstream party (in Ireland at least).

Bertie? The guy who gave up being Taoiseach and claimed it had nothing to do with the tribunal he was involved in? Just to be clear we're talking about the same guy here...

"Recent developments have not motivated my decision. For the record I state today that nothing could be further from the truth. I look forward to comprehensively dealing with these matters at the Tribunal and robustly refuting any imputation against me."

...Right?

InFront

I would say it is a bit misleading of the OP to speak in terms of Libertas winning all of its seats or winning an overall majority in Europe. This party currently has no seats whatever in the EU parliament. Its popularity across Europe is abysmal. I think it's far too early for such dreams as 10 seats, let alone 500. There is no prospect of a 'power grab'.

Personally, I think a healthy dose of Euro-scepticism is a good thing, and Libertas is not without its benefit to the Irish people as being a voice against the gale in doing something to promote transparency in Europe and questionng some of its principles.

ShooterSF

Scoff's theorising could equally have been posted in the conspiracy theory forum to be fair...

sink

ShooterSF wrote: »

Scoff's theorising could equally have been posted in the conspiracy theory forum to be fair...

Conspiracy's are supposed to be secret! Declan Ganley's publicly stated aim is to get at least 100 Libertas candidates elected. How is that in anyway a secret plot?

InFront

It doesn't mean anything though. I've had lots of publicly stated aims. I should be playing professional rugby, enjoying my third year of millionaire status, and married to Kelly from Saved by the Bell.

I'm an optimistic guy so don't want to talk myself down here, but I reckon Declan Ganley's hopes about as likely.

What are people afraid of? He doesn't just snatch power - we have to take it out of our hands, put it into his and say 'there ya go, Dec'. Has the EU become so scary an institution, and us so locked into it, that we're afraid of a bald but vocal little man with no power in it?