The greatest power grab...

ShooterSF

sink wrote: »

Conspiracy's are supposed to be secret! Declan Ganley's publicly stated aim is to get at least 100 Libertas candidates elected. How is that in anyway a secret plot?

Well apart from the evil undertone to it all, this?

"And we don't have any idea what he would want to do with it, but we do know that the Parliament elects the Commission President, and can reject the Commission if it doesn't like the candidates - and there is a new Commission due in October. It can reject the EU budget, and amend or refuse laws. All those powers are intended to be the means of democratic oversight by the citizens of Europe, not the levers of power for one man."

I realise that statement is a fact maybe excluding the last sentence but it's implied that he want's to get into the EU to become Commission President. Or the idea that they might change their core beliefs, those on Lisbon, when elected all in aid of the secret core desire the search for power to do as the great leader wishes.

That's how I read it anyway.

sink

ShooterSF wrote: »

Well apart from the evil undertone to it all, this?

"And we don't have any idea what he would want to do with it, but we do know that the Parliament elects the Commission President, and can reject the Commission if it doesn't like the candidates - and there is a new Commission due in October. It can reject the EU budget, and amend or refuse laws. All those powers are intended to be the means of democratic oversight by the citizens of Europe, not the levers of power for one man."

I realise that statement is a fact maybe excluding the last sentence but it's implied that he want's to get into the EU to become Commission President. Or the idea that they might change their core beliefs, those on Lisbon, when elected all in aid of the secret core desire the search for power to do as the great leader wishes.

That's how I read it anyway.

Well that is pure conjecture. Given Ganley's stated goal is to have a directly elected commission, what I suspect is that Ganley will block the appointment of any new commission to force the issue and what happens then is anyone's guess.

ShooterSF

sink wrote: »

Well that is pure conjecture. Given Ganley's stated goal is to have a directly elected commission, what I suspect is that Ganley will block the appointment of any new commission to force the issue and what happens then is anyone's guess.

It's all conjecture at this point though isn't it? No one is sure of Libertas' motives or their planned actions. There is a certain "better the devil you know" going on here I think.
As I said I won't be voting for Libertas and I'm not a supporter of theirs so I didn't read the Op with any bias I'm aware of. Maybe Scoff is really worried that Ganley's only goal is world domination but possible situations are just that, possible.

Scofflaw

ShooterSF wrote: »

Well apart from the evil undertone to it all, this?

"And we don't have any idea what he would want to do with it, but we do know that the Parliament elects the Commission President, and can reject the Commission if it doesn't like the candidates - and there is a new Commission due in October. It can reject the EU budget, and amend or refuse laws. All those powers are intended to be the means of democratic oversight by the citizens of Europe, not the levers of power for one man."

I realise that statement is a fact maybe excluding the last sentence but it's implied that he want's to get into the EU to become Commission President. Or the idea that they might change their core beliefs, those on Lisbon, when elected all in aid of the secret core desire the search for power to do as the great leader wishes.

That's how I read it anyway.

It's not so much about whether that's what he wishes - as I said, I don't know what he wants - it's more that that's the position he'll be in either way. He has a financial hold over most of the Eastern European parties that Libertas have acquired, so it will be a little hard for them to go against what Ganley wants, unless they fancy bankruptcy proceedings.

No conspiracy is required - Ganley's stated aim is to hold the balance of power in the Parliament, and it's not as if Libertas is a 'party of policy'. That's not exactly 'world domination', but it's a lot of power in the hands of a man whose motives are completely opaque.

cordially,
Scofflaw

InFront

Scofflaw wrote: »

No conspiracy is required - Ganley's stated aim is to hold the balance of power in the Parliament

What kind of party wouldn't aim for that? Certainly not one I'd vote for.

and it's not as if Libertas is a 'party of policy'.

Is there a big last chapter in the Libertas story that wasn't included in my copy? The kind where everyone finds out it was Ganley whudunnit? I'm not referring to you particularly here, but the level of paranoia out there about Ganley, and speculation, is amazing. Again, his party has negligible popularity across Europe according to everyone but his own 'sources', and even if they did win support electorally, that would be completely by the book and should be endorsed as such.

ShooterSF

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's not so much about whether that's what he wishes - as I said, I don't know what he wants - it's more that that's the position he'll be in either way. He has a financial hold over most of the Eastern European parties that Libertas have acquired, so it will be a little hard for them to go against what Ganley wants, unless they fancy bankruptcy proceedings.

No conspiracy is required - Ganley's stated aim is to hold the balance of power in the Parliament, and it's not as if Libertas is a 'party of policy'. That's not exactly 'world domination', but it's a lot of power in the hands of a man whose motives are completely opaque.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Ok but then does realising that there is potential to buy power in Europe and be a controlling force without policies not bring you to question you support of Lisbon? After all as you said,

Even if they decided to turn right around and support Lisbon - which would extend the powers of the Parliament Libertas would control - they cannot be voted out or recalled. Lisbon may well pass anyway, but a volte-face by Libertas would really set the seal on it.

Do you not see that as a danger of Lisbon?

Scofflaw

To answer both of those together - no, I don't see the ability for a party to gain a lot of power through the EU Parliament, and more under Lisbon than not, as some kind of flaw in Lisbon. That the power is there is good, that it increases is better.

And as InFront says, that a party should aim to hold power in the Parliament is totally unexceptionable - it's what parties do. It's also impossible to prevent someone from dominating an elected assembly if they are voted in to do so.

However, Libertas isn't a party as such. It's a 'vehicle' of the kind Mr Ganley has put together before. You can't join it, except by invitation, and most of its apparent support is paid for shilling by PR agencies. It doesn't have party policies, only a brand name and funding. It's a company (or private enterprise), and companies are autocracies. Putting a company in the position to control the EP is not something I favour, and it's something I would regard as quite different from a political party - Ganley's mechanisms of control over the other parties involved are financial (and hence legal), not political.

cordially,
Scofflaw

petrak

Perhaps you are crediting Mr. Ganley and Libertas with too much scofflaw.

Libertas will not succeed in its aims. Opinion polls in the European countries in which it is contesting these elections indicate it will not meet with much electoral success. Parties allied to Libertas may win two seats in France, two in Italy and there is some evidence that Mr. Ganley may win a seat in Ireland.

It is exceeding unlikely that more seats will be won elsewhere, certainly not in Germany!

Libertas and its allies have over 600 candidates. Getting 5, perhaps 6, elected would mean a success rate of less than one percentage point.

Rather more a failure than a success.

Scofflaw

petrak wrote: »

Perhaps you are crediting Mr. Ganley and Libertas with too much scofflaw.

Libertas will not succeed in its aims. Opinion polls in the European countries in which it is contesting these elections indicate it will not meet with much electoral success. Parties allied to Libertas may win two seats in France, two in Italy and there is some evidence that Mr. Ganley may win a seat in Ireland.

It is exceeding unlikely that more seats will be won elsewhere, certainly not in Germany!

Libertas and its allies have over 600 candidates. Getting 5, perhaps 6, elected would mean a success rate of less than one percentage point.

Rather more a failure than a success.

I hope that turns out to be the case.

cordially,
Scofflaw

P. Breathnach

petrak wrote: »

...Libertas will not succeed in its aims.

Do they have any known aim other than to get people elected?

Opinion polls in the European countries in which it is contesting these elections indicate it will not meet with much electoral success. Parties allied to Libertas may win two seats in France, two in Italy and there is some evidence that Mr. Ganley may win a seat in Ireland.

It is exceeding unlikely that more seats will be won elsewhere, certainly not in Germany!

I hope that you are overestimating their prospects.

I think that Ganley's own chances of getting elected are vanishingly small. If they get a handful of MEPs, and Ganley is not one of them, will he continue to be leader of the party?

Scofflaw

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Do they have any known aim other than to get people elected?



I hope that you are overestimating their prospects.

I think that Ganley's own chances of getting elected are vanishingly small. If they get a handful of MEPs, and Ganley is not one of them, will he continue to be leader of the party?

I can't see why not - but Ganley is, I think, the person most likely to be elected. I can't really see him slogging out 5 years as a run of the mill independent MEP myself, but who knows?

cordially,
Scofflaw

conchubhar1

i cant see them get any irish mep's - but thats a small loss if their true goal is larger as you suggest