Dual amping Vox AC30 & Marshall MG

Denalihighway

howdy.
Gonna try keep this simple as possible. Basically I'm trying dual-amping for the first time. I recently bought a Vox AC30 (CC1) and needless to say I love it. I was going to just play this live and put the effects through it but my old amp (a Marshall MG 2x50) is in good nick and I was looking at using it to put the effects though when playing live.

I know its a pice of sh*t compared to the Vox but I thought if I used the Vox to showcase its clean sound and ran effects through the MG, while the Vox stays clean all the time, it might beef up the sound. I'm a novice at this so I could be completely, utterly wrong...that's why I'm here...I've done some research and seen many permutations but wondered what you guys thought.

So the other night I tried it, basically the chain was as follows (and I know I have to look at the way my chain is ordered too, its probably all over the shop):

Guitar > tuner > delay pedal > AC30 (I want to have the delays on the clean Vox)
- Split the signal at the delay pedal then:
delay pedal > overdrive pedal > distortion pedal > multieffects > Marshall MG

so all the effects go to the MG and only delay goes to the AC30. It seemed alright but to a 'pro's' ears it might sound infernal...

Appreciate any pointers...

kranog

I bi-amp to achieve my tone now...but in a more basic but far more versatile level.
I'd recommend you buy a good ABY switch.
I use the Radial Bigshot ABY switch - I've used a few and I'd say this is the best....it aint even all that expensive!

There's two ways to use an ABY switch, if you want to keep your effects signals seperate, you can route them that way using the ABY...
But if yer like me and ya like a really beefy tone, ya might wanna just use the ABY to use both amps at the same time and simply roll either of the amps for certain parts of your songs.

My full on rig is this;

Vox AC30 (CC2X) & Orange AD30

using a lead from each, goes direct into my ABY, I line out a patch lead to go into my overdrive pedal (H&K Warp Factor - amazing pedal!)
I then patch lead out to my effects individually, so my effects run through both my amps at the same time.
My two amps have very different tones, but combining them together without overdrive is the most incredible "bitey" aggresive clean, I just roll back the volume on my guitar to get a crystal clear clean!
Throwing on my overdrive pedal....seriously...feckin' HUGE sound then!

Hope this helps mate...
Good luck...enjoy your Vox!

Denalihighway

cheers dude - food for thought alright
thanks I'll look into it

Eoin Madsen

If you feel like the tone from the AC30 alone needs to be "beefed up" then adding an amp wouldn't be high on my list of fixes. There's a problem somewhere, and I'd track it down first. I'd really be very surprised if you couldn't get a much better tone by running your effects through the AC30 than adding a superflous amp to the whole thing. If memory serves, the CC1 is a 1x12" combo? Try using the MG speakers like an extention cab, and see how that sounds. Use a proper speaker cable, not a guitar lead.

If you're going to split your guitar signal, make sure you add a buffer or something specifically and solely designed to split a signal, otherwise it will mess with your impedence and you'll be losing tone somewhere.

Denalihighway

thanks for that. Yeah to be honest there's been so much different advice given I'm still a bit muddled but at least I'll have a few things to try out to see how they sound.

To be honest, I've no problem with the tone on the Vox - including when the effects go through. It sounds great but I was advised to try bi-amping (in some shape or form) to augment the live show. I'd say the fact that there's a serious quality gap between the 2 amps might be the thing that's complicating the situation seeing though I have to find a solution that showcases the Vox as much as possible.

Would I be right in saying that if I had 2 AC30s things might be a bit easier?!

I was also advised to try sending a slightly delayed signal to the second amp etc which is another option I'll look into.

Kranogs suggestion is also interesting but it does still require further foot-tapping to select amps, whereas I'd prefer to just have this happen when I select effects etc.

I'll do some more research but if you have any more suggestions do tell! thanks

Johnny Storm

I know **** all about it obviously but if you're going to have one amp clean and the other distorted then I suggest to put a volume pedal in front of the distorted amp. Then you can blend your distortion/effects in and out at will.

rcaz

Denalihighway wrote: »

I was also advised to try sending a slightly delayed signal to the second amp etc which is another option I'll look into.

Yeah, if you want chorusing. But I'd see this as an effect, not a way of 'beefing up' your tone.

Eoin Madsen

Denalihighway wrote: »

Would I be right in saying that if I had 2 AC30s things might be a bit easier?!

Well, no, having 2 amps at all is not making things easier. Even if you're getting a very very specific tone that only comes from a setup like that, it won't translate well onto stage under anything but ideal circumstances. Adding an extra amp will make trouble for the sound engineer and everybody else on stage, and for no good reason tbh. If you focus on getting a good guitar tone through one amp you'll be doing better 80% of the guitarists out there.

If you're headlining a gig, you have a crew, and you're playing venues where the sound is not already enormously compromised, then you can afford to mess around. Otherwise, trust me, the cons of the setup you're proposing will far outweigh the pros.

Paolo_M

Denalihighway wrote: »

thanks for that. Yeah to be honest there's been so much different advice given I'm still a bit muddled but at least I'll have a few things to try out to see how they sound.

To be honest, I've no problem with the tone on the Vox - including when the effects go through. It sounds great but I was advised to try bi-amping (in some shape or form) to augment the live show. I'd say the fact that there's a serious quality gap between the 2 amps might be the thing that's complicating the situation seeing though I have to find a solution that showcases the Vox as much as possible.

Would I be right in saying that if I had 2 AC30s things might be a bit easier?!

I was also advised to try sending a slightly delayed signal to the second amp etc which is another option I'll look into.

Kranogs suggestion is also interesting but it does still require further foot-tapping to select amps, whereas I'd prefer to just have this happen when I select effects etc.

I'll do some more research but if you have any more suggestions do tell! thanks

Don't take this the wrong way, but you don't appear to have a clear objective of what you're trying to achieve here.
Is it improved tone, thicker low end, rig flexibility, combined tonal features of the two different amps, speaker variation, the look (don't laugh, it's perfectly valid )?
Going down the road of just trying out stuff, because someone advised it, is a perilous task. With no clear objective you'll never know if you've achieved anything and end up in an endless chase.
To me you're adding additional complexity into your rig with no real benefit, or at least no objective that you're ahcieving.
When building up a stage rig it would be better establish a clear picture of exactly what you want and then figure out how to achieve it.

Denalihighway

sorry Paulo, you'll have to excuse me, like a lot of musicians I'm not technically trained so I'm going on my ears and instinct and trying to explain it thus.

I would imagine what I'm looking for is just a fuller sound if that makes any sense. I'm a novice so I'm experimenting and seeing what happens. More drive and low end on the dirty signal would be good.

After playing around a bit I had what sounded reasonably good tonight somehow.

guitar > tuner > delay > multieffects then signal is split so these go to the Vox and then the other signal goes to overdrive and distortion pedals (plus all the effects earlier in the chain if they're on) and on to the Marshall.

(I don't use any overdrives/distortion with the multieffects pedal, so the Vox is only ever playing clean, delay, phase, tremelo, pitchshift etc)

When clean, the Vox is nicely audible over the MG, but the MG is discernable and for the craic I also put the smallest single delay on the MG which seems to be doing to fatten up the overall sound.

When the overdrive/distortion kicks in then the pedal volumes are fixed so the MG kicks in nicely over the Vox signal but with the Vox providing a nice base behind it.

I'd have to have someone with a good ear have a listen to see what they think, but its a start...fun to be messin around with if nothing else.

Denalihighway

Eoin Madsen wrote: »

Well, no, having 2 amps at all is not making things easier. Even if you're getting a very very specific tone that only comes from a setup like that, it won't translate well onto stage under anything but ideal circumstances. Adding an extra amp will make trouble for the sound engineer and everybody else on stage, and for no good reason tbh. If you focus on getting a good guitar tone through one amp you'll be doing better 80% of the guitarists out there.

If you're headlining a gig, you have a crew, and you're playing venues where the sound is not already enormously compromised, then you can afford to mess around. Otherwise, trust me, the cons of the setup you're proposing will far outweigh the pros.

about troubling a soundman...I've heard people mention this before, but I don't agree. I half decent soundman should be able to look after this from what I hear, OK its not gonna be necessary in every gig, but surely its something they should be able to cater for. I don't think it's a lot to ask...professional development and all that...

rcaz

What if having to set two mics up just annoys the soundman and he doesn't like you anymore and sabotages you? We've all heard the horror stories!

What about your poor old back??

Denalihighway

if it annoys him / her, they should go and get a job in a garden centre or something, I know you're not defending them but I really have heard too much of that sh*t around.

If a technical gobsh*te like me can run a rough bi amp set-up (not saying I can or can't to be honest) then a sound person (nice and PC:)) should be able to adapt around it in soundcheck, especially since we're only a 3 piece.

Don't worry about me back! I'll be grand, our drummer's a fitness trainer...

rcaz

Yeah, maybe they should get a job somewhere else, but for that night when you annoy them, they'll still work as sound people

Denalihighway

true.

Not that sound though...

sorry...getting late...scraping the barrel

Eoin Madsen

Denalihighway wrote: »

about troubling a soundman...I've heard people mention this before, but I don't agree. I half decent soundman should be able to look after this from what I hear, OK its not gonna be necessary in every gig, but surely its something they should be able to cater for. I don't think it's a lot to ask...professional development and all that...

Live sound is a series of compromises, it's not like recording. Your proposed setup is a bit of a mess, and very unlikely to help make the band audible or distinct. Sticking an extra 57 in front of your superflous extra amp is easy, but there's a whole lot more to engineering a gig than that. As often as not, it's a struggle to get the vocalist sounding clear.

Here are a few things to consider:

Distortion is a non-linear effect; mixing clean and distorted signals across all frequencies just gives you a watered-down distortion sound. If you get your distortion right, you should be able to vary from light to heavy without needing to parallel a clean signal. Something is wrong if you're finding that you need to.

Most of the sound engineers around really should be working in garden centres / away from sound equipment, but they're going to be operating the desk until you can afford to hire a good one - so think about how things are going to go in a real situation.

The MG is definitely a dead-weight here, if you're really planning to do this. Distortion through it is going to sound obnoxious the moment you put it in a large room, and it's going to piss all over everything else on stage. At least get an amp which is caparable to the AC30.

rcaz

Sorry to keep chiming in with different things to say, but I would've thought that as soon as you got your AC30, you would've ben happy to throw your MG out a window or something?

Wouldn't the distortion sound really really good going into your AC30?

Denalihighway

Eoin Madsen wrote: »

Live sound is a series of compromises, it's not like recording. Your proposed setup is a bit of a mess, and very unlikely to help make the band audible or distinct. Sticking an extra 57 in front of your superflous extra amp is easy, but there's a whole lot more to engineering a gig than that. As often as not, it's a struggle to get the vocalist sounding clear.

Here are a few things to consider:

Distortion is a non-linear effect; mixing clean and distorted signals across all frequencies just gives you a watered-down distortion sound. If you get your distortion right, you should be able to vary from light to heavy without needing to parallel a clean signal. Something is wrong if you're finding that you need to.

Most of the sound engineers around really should be working in garden centres / away from sound equipment, but they're going to be operating the desk until you can afford to hire a good one - so think about how things are going to go in a real situation.

The MG is definitely a dead-weight here, if you're really planning to do this. Distortion through it is going to sound obnoxious the moment you put it in a large room, and it's going to piss all over everything else on stage. At least get an amp which is caparable to the AC30.

sorry was away for a few days...I agree with both of you. And my plan was to pretty much relegate the MG to emergencies or whatever, so maybe I'm just being greedy. I also realise I'm exposing my ignorance where technical issues are concerned so apologies for that but I said at the outset it wasn't my forte and I'm working on it.

But it's worth a meddle at least right? Sometimes you don't need clear objections to find something cool that works for you. I always get the feeling that a lot of bands with a 'sound' just happened upon it as a result of the equipment they had and whatever permutations they used. But if what I'm trying to do actually ends up defeating the whole purpose then obviously I should keep it simple.

I have access to better amps than the MG if I defo want to go the bi-amping route for bigger gigs so what I might do is drag an experienced live engineer that I know down to rehearsals to see if it's worth doing.